FAFSA - is middle-class waste time applying?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:the hard pill to swallow here is the awful reality that college is a luxury item that has dramatically outpaced income increases over time, which mostly screws all the families who are anywhere above $150k but not rich rich. The families at the very top were always fine, as their earnings have dramatically increased over time (we're back to the Gilded Age in terms of income inequality) so they can stomach the increases without a dip in quality of life and those at the very bottom have seen declining wages over time, so they got aid then and are eligible for aid now. Those children might claw themselves into the lower end of the UMC with an elite education and their children will be like your children. Raised in relative comfort, and parents unable to afford full pay private tuition.

Reframe your thinking and consider college like a car purchase. You might want the Lucid or the Rivian, but you know that you cannot afford it, so you end up with the Kia. It is what it is. You wistfully watch folks roll by in the Rivian and wish you had it like that, but alas, you don't. College is the same way. Some have the cash for Yale, and while your child may have the same stats, you have the money for JMU or Towson. It feels so unfair, because we've set up this entire system to trick you into thinking that it is a meritocracy and that your children should be rewarded if they have the merit, but that is not our system. Go to Europe if you want that system. Buy the Kia and tell your kids to take care of it and drive it well, and they are on track to be able to buy the Rivian down the road.

A family with 300K income is at the top. They make more than 95% of the country.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If my income was $300k I would have zero problems being able to pay for my kid to go to an expensive, private college. You need a dose of reality

$300k puts you in a 30% combined tax bracket if you live in MD, about 27% in VA. Don't forget, SALT deductions are limited, so you will probably take the standard deduction.

If you are 50+, you want to max out your 401k contribution and add the catch up extra $7500, which brings it to like $30K per person.

So, your income will look something like this:

1. 60K 401k (assuming both are 50+ and contributing the max, which you should at that income level)
2. taxes around $60K to $65K

That leaves you with 300K - 120k = $180k.

Let's say your annual expenses is something like $100K/yr in just expenses. You would have $80k left. But that just pays for room and board. Travel and other costs will rack up more. That's just one kid. Many of us have more than one kid who will be in college at the same time.

You will also not have any wiggle room for large emergency expenses or even vacation. If your car breaks down (like ours just did), you'd have to get a loan at 6% to 7%.

My DC is at the state flagship with some merit aid. We told this DC, who had super high stats, to not do ED at the expensive colleges. We cannot afford it, yes, even with $300K per year. It would leave us with so little wiggle room, that we'd be eating hand to mouth for the next 7 years -- we have two kids, and DH is 60. We have enough in the 529s for in state. That would barely cover 2 years of private.

I think you are the one who needs a dose of reality.

I'm guessing you weren't always making 300k. If you had put away half of each pay raise when your kid was born, by age 18 you would have plenty in a 529 to pay for college. No one is saying that you should pay all of college with current income. You should have saved for the last 18 years

Most people haven't been making $300k for 20 years. We are self employed, so there are no raises.

Then, as your income goes up, you don't change your lifestyle and put that money away.

As your income goes up, your taxes also go up. Our lifestyle hasn't changed much. We are not the jetsetting, luxury vacation, name brand clothing, type people.

But taxes are a step up.

You aren't paying 30-something percent on all your income. You are only paying that amount on the small amount of income in the upper tax bracket. Everything below that is taxed at the same rate as the person making less than you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some non-need-based awards and scholarships required FAFSA on file.

Yes. I am 100% sure we will not qualify for financial aid, however multiple school have stated you need to fill out the FAFSA in order to eligible for merit aid.

Which schools?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Oh gosh, I am so sick of people making hundreds of thousands of dollars and trying to call themselves "middle class." We earn about $150K a year (here in the DC area as well) and I hesitate to call us middle class-- I think we're upper middle class, not quite rich yet but getting there. At $300,000 you are absolutely not middle class anymore- you're in like the top 5% richest households in the area.

Look, I get that paying for college is not easy even at $300K, but haven't you been saving? Even if you only saved like $10K per child per year (which shouldn't be too hard at your income-- we manage it pretty easily at half your income) that should cover most or all of the costs, depending on investment returns.

.

Oh gosh, I am so sick of people making assumptions about what others can afford. We make $350+. We’ve never had any family help. We lived on one GS-11 to gradually 14 in the DMV when our kids were little and could hardly pay the mortgage, much less save for college. One of our kids has a disability that requires expenses beyond medical that you’d never begin to understand.

We have high incomes in the last few years and our expenses are high. We still have our own student loans. College for a kid with our kids disability (if that happens) is DOUBLE private college and they will need help their entire life.

So I’m so sick of people jumping in on DCUM and saying off of one sentence about income “of course you can afford it, you made lifestyle choices or didn’t save enough.”

You just don’t know the complexities of someone else’s situation.

We will not get aid and our DC will go to a great state school with merit. We are okay with that. But don’t tell me what I can afford based on my income when I’m in my 50’s and my kid is 18.

$300,000 is rich.

Period.

It is rich here. It is really rich an hour drive away from here.

There is no way, no how, that a $300K income is middle class... even here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Oh gosh, I am so sick of people making hundreds of thousands of dollars and trying to call themselves "middle class." We earn about $150K a year (here in the DC area as well) and I hesitate to call us middle class-- I think we're upper middle class, not quite rich yet but getting there. At $300,000 you are absolutely not middle class anymore- you're in like the top 5% richest households in the area.

Look, I get that paying for college is not easy even at $300K, but haven't you been saving? Even if you only saved like $10K per child per year (which shouldn't be too hard at your income-- we manage it pretty easily at half your income) that should cover most or all of the costs, depending on investment returns.

.

Oh gosh, I am so sick of people making assumptions about what others can afford. We make $350+. We’ve never had any family help. We lived on one GS-11 to gradually 14 in the DMV when our kids were little and could hardly pay the mortgage, much less save for college. One of our kids has a disability that requires expenses beyond medical that you’d never begin to understand.

We have high incomes in the last few years and our expenses are high. We still have our own student loans. College for a kid with our kids disability (if that happens) is DOUBLE private college and they will need help their entire life.

So I’m so sick of people jumping in on DCUM and saying off of one sentence about income “of course you can afford it, you made lifestyle choices or didn’t save enough.”

You just don’t know the complexities of someone else’s situation.

We will not get aid and our DC will go to a great state school with merit. We are okay with that. But don’t tell me what I can afford based on my income when I’m in my 50’s and my kid is 18.

$300,000 is rich.

Period.

It is rich here. It is really rich an hour drive away from here.

There is no way, no how, that a $300K income is middle class... even here.

+1
Like the whole thing about a kid with special needs is definitely an extra expense that I’m sure isn’t cheap. But unless we’re talking about paying for cancer treatment OOP I can’t imagine you’d be paying (even if you had a live-in aid and paid out of pocket for other therapies) more than 100k a year in expenses for the kid… which would still leave this PP with a +250k HHI. Still definitely top 10% even after that.

Like, y’all… if you’re maxing out your retirement each year, able to pay for a private k-12 (like a lot of you do) and then STILL have enough left over to at least pay for 4 years at a state flagship so your DC doesn’t have to take out loans, regardless of any merit aid? That’s not middle-class. Even saying upper middle class would be QUITE a stretch.

No, you’re not Bezos or Buffett wealthy. You can’t just up and quit your jobs and then live the same lifestyle. But don’t insult those of us who have families and own our own homes and go to public school and who bargain shop out of necessity, who make close to the median HHI (which is multiple times less yourselves) by trying to lump yourselves in with the middle class. It’s not middle-class. It’s just not. COL adjustments don’t change things that much

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am not fluent enough with the revamp to say yes or no - but I think it is worth for you to fill it out especially since it is supposed to be simplified.

If you go onto any school website, they should have a tool to forecast your net price. DO this to get a sense of what to expect from all schools your child is applying to

We were recommended by our student's private school not to submit the FAFSA. Wouldn't get any money anyway, and it could adversely affect their prospects for getting accepted (assumption: those who appear to be full pay might have an edge getting admitted). Worked for us.

Well that won't work for anyone this year. FASFA won't go out to colleges until the end of January when most Colleges have already sent their acceptance letters.

By the way, all you need is to be OOS to be "appealing" to a College.

[Anonymous]

These threads always get derailed by bickering. If there are state/federal funds involved, even if it's designated merit, the school will likely require the FAFSA just to complete their accounting, confirm there's no double dipping and no additional eligibility. This is a case where OP would complete the FAFSA. The FAFSA is less info than a tax return. I don't see how a fed household would find this intrusive, cumbersome or unexpected.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:These threads always get derailed by bickering. If there are state/federal funds involved, even if it's designated merit, the school will likely require the FAFSA just to complete their accounting, confirm there's no double dipping and no additional eligibility. This is a case where OP would complete the FAFSA. The FAFSA is less info than a tax return. I don't see how a fed household would find this intrusive, cumbersome or unexpected.

Because the people posting this have all kinds of stuff they don’t want colleges to know about like foreign accounts, trust funds, shares of privately owned businesses, off-books bonuses from family businesses, parents paying for everything, etc.

They can’t lie to the IRS but they want to lie on the FAFSA/CSS but the risk of discovery is high when the numbers don’t add up. Better to not file.

That’s why it’s a “privacy issue” and “don’t give colleges your info.”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:These threads always get derailed by bickering. If there are state/federal funds involved, even if it's designated merit, the school will likely require the FAFSA just to complete their accounting, confirm there's no double dipping and no additional eligibility. This is a case where OP would complete the FAFSA. The FAFSA is less info than a tax return. I don't see how a fed household would find this intrusive, cumbersome or unexpected.

I thought about this. If you google “what is middle class”, it will usually be some sort of distribution for the region area and break that up into tiers. But if you search things like how much did you need to make to afford x or y back when we grew up - potentially people in that middle income range could afford a home, healthcare, and if it was a good job with a pension, they also had a retirement. I live in a neighborhood where people had 4-5 kids or more (back in the 1960’s) , sometimes one income, sent the kids to Catholic school and they could retire with a pension and healthcare. Fast forward to today and say 120K for a family of four in Alexandria is considered middle income with 49% adults in the region - what that lifestyle looks like for middle income is different now than it was when we were growing up and it’s hard to say it’s a pick 3 - do you want to buy a single family home, fund retirement, have adequate healthcare, be able to have a parent stay home, pay for college etc. This shifts that you have to be in that tier beyond middle income to afford what back is generation ago was middle class. And one more income tier to live the lifestyle that was x years ago considered upper middle class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:These threads always get derailed by bickering. If there are state/federal funds involved, even if it's designated merit, the school will likely require the FAFSA just to complete their accounting, confirm there's no double dipping and no additional eligibility. This is a case where OP would complete the FAFSA. The FAFSA is less info than a tax return. I don't see how a fed household would find this intrusive, cumbersome or unexpected.

I thought about this. If you google “what is middle class”, it will usually be some sort of distribution for the region area and break that up into tiers. But if you search things like how much did you need to make to afford x or y back when we grew up - potentially people in that middle income range could afford a home, healthcare, and if it was a good job with a pension, they also had a retirement. I live in a neighborhood where people had 4-5 kids or more (back in the 1960’s) , sometimes one income, sent the kids to Catholic school and they could retire with a pension and healthcare. Fast forward to today and say 120K for a family of four in Alexandria is considered middle income with 49% adults in the region - what that lifestyle looks like for middle income is different now than it was when we were growing up and it’s hard to say it’s a pick 3 - do you want to buy a single family home, fund retirement, have adequate healthcare, be able to have a parent stay home, pay for college etc. This shifts that you have to be in that tier beyond middle income to afford what back is generation ago was middle class. And one more income tier to live the lifestyle that was x years ago considered upper middle class.

It's not relevant. $300K is not middle class. You have the option to save. Your lifestyle choices shouldn't be considered - if you choose to live in a million+ house, you shouldn't get aid over someone who has a much cheaper house and saved.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:do you want to buy a single family home, fund retirement, have adequate healthcare, be able to have a parent stay home, pay for college etc.

No one is entitled to any or all of these luxuries. We accepted the capitalist rules of this country.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Oh gosh, I am so sick of people making hundreds of thousands of dollars and trying to call themselves "middle class." We earn about $150K a year (here in the DC area as well) and I hesitate to call us middle class-- I think we're upper middle class, not quite rich yet but getting there. At $300,000 you are absolutely not middle class anymore- you're in like the top 5% richest households in the area.

Look, I get that paying for college is not easy even at $300K, but haven't you been saving? Even if you only saved like $10K per child per year (which shouldn't be too hard at your income-- we manage it pretty easily at half your income) that should cover most or all of the costs, depending on investment returns.

.

Oh gosh, I am so sick of people making assumptions about what others can afford. We make $350+. We’ve never had any family help. We lived on one GS-11 to gradually 14 in the DMV when our kids were little and could hardly pay the mortgage, much less save for college. One of our kids has a disability that requires expenses beyond medical that you’d never begin to understand.

We have high incomes in the last few years and our expenses are high. We still have our own student loans. College for a kid with our kids disability (if that happens) is DOUBLE private college and they will need help their entire life.

So I’m so sick of people jumping in on DCUM and saying off of one sentence about income “of course you can afford it, you made lifestyle choices or didn’t save enough.”

You just don’t know the complexities of someone else’s situation.

We will not get aid and our DC will go to a great state school with merit. We are okay with that. But don’t tell me what I can afford based on my income when I’m in my 50’s and my kid is 18.

$300,000 is rich.

Period.

It is rich here. It is really rich an hour drive away from here.

There is no way, no how, that a $300K income is middle class... even here.

Sure 300k comp in say Arkansas is rich, but not in this area. In this area you are getting by fine but by no means is someone making that rich, especially if they have kids. 300k in this area is solidly middle class (look at the average income in McLean for example, it's 250k, or say in 22207 it's 230k). 300k in this area (especially given high cost of housing and childcare) is very much an almost paycheck to paycheck existence.

The only way I would say that 300k is fine is if its a household where only the husband/wife works while the other takes care of childcare. Then yeah 300k is great, otherwise though (especially with super young children) dual income 300k just doesn't get you far.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Oh gosh, I am so sick of people making hundreds of thousands of dollars and trying to call themselves "middle class." We earn about $150K a year (here in the DC area as well) and I hesitate to call us middle class-- I think we're upper middle class, not quite rich yet but getting there. At $300,000 you are absolutely not middle class anymore- you're in like the top 5% richest households in the area.

Look, I get that paying for college is not easy even at $300K, but haven't you been saving? Even if you only saved like $10K per child per year (which shouldn't be too hard at your income-- we manage it pretty easily at half your income) that should cover most or all of the costs, depending on investment returns.

.

Oh gosh, I am so sick of people making assumptions about what others can afford. We make $350+. We’ve never had any family help. We lived on one GS-11 to gradually 14 in the DMV when our kids were little and could hardly pay the mortgage, much less save for college. One of our kids has a disability that requires expenses beyond medical that you’d never begin to understand.

We have high incomes in the last few years and our expenses are high. We still have our own student loans. College for a kid with our kids disability (if that happens) is DOUBLE private college and they will need help their entire life.

So I’m so sick of people jumping in on DCUM and saying off of one sentence about income “of course you can afford it, you made lifestyle choices or didn’t save enough.”

You just don’t know the complexities of someone else’s situation.

We will not get aid and our DC will go to a great state school with merit. We are okay with that. But don’t tell me what I can afford based on my income when I’m in my 50’s and my kid is 18.

$300,000 is rich.

Period.

It is rich here. It is really rich an hour drive away from here.

There is no way, no how, that a $300K income is middle class... even here.

Sure 300k comp in say Arkansas is rich, but not in this area. In this area you are getting by fine but by no means is someone making that rich, especially if they have kids. 300k in this area is solidly middle class (look at the average income in McLean for example, it's 250k, or say in 22207 it's 230k). 300k in this area (especially given high cost of housing and childcare) is very much an almost paycheck to paycheck existence.

The only way I would say that 300k is fine is if its a household where only the husband/wife works while the other takes care of childcare. Then yeah 300k is great, otherwise though (especially with super young children) dual income 300k just doesn't get you far.

No, it snot middle class and the zip codes you are referring to like McLean are very wealthy areas. Homes start at what, a million? Middle class people cannot afford a million dollar home. They are living in neighborhoods you'd never consider, in very small homes (as in 1000 square feet) that cost under $400K, maybe 500K if they have family or other help and make half of what you consider middle class or less. Housing is only high because you choose an expensive area and house. That doesn't make you middle class, that makes you bad with money.

We have been fine on half that income. Even paid off our house and have college savings for a state school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:These threads always get derailed by bickering. If there are state/federal funds involved, even if it's designated merit, the school will likely require the FAFSA just to complete their accounting, confirm there's no double dipping and no additional eligibility. This is a case where OP would complete the FAFSA. The FAFSA is less info than a tax return. I don't see how a fed household would find this intrusive, cumbersome or unexpected.

I thought about this. If you google “what is middle class”, it will usually be some sort of distribution for the region area and break that up into tiers. But if you search things like how much did you need to make to afford x or y back when we grew up - potentially people in that middle income range could afford a home, healthcare, and if it was a good job with a pension, they also had a retirement. I live in a neighborhood where people had 4-5 kids or more (back in the 1960’s) , sometimes one income, sent the kids to Catholic school and they could retire with a pension and healthcare. Fast forward to today and say 120K for a family of four in Alexandria is considered middle income with 49% adults in the region - what that lifestyle looks like for middle income is different now than it was when we were growing up and it’s hard to say it’s a pick 3 - do you want to buy a single family home, fund retirement, have adequate healthcare, be able to have a parent stay home, pay for college etc. This shifts that you have to be in that tier beyond middle income to afford what back is generation ago was middle class. And one more income tier to live the lifestyle that was x years ago considered upper middle class.

No… this is what a lot of posters here don’t seem to understand. It’s still the same 4 income classes of poor, middle class, upper class, and obscenely wealthy. It’s just that the middle class used to be able to do all the things you mentioned and now we can’t. Upperclass still lives very, very comfortably but has to work for a living.

Middleclass does not own a million dollar home unless it’s inherited or bought before home prices soared hundreds of percentage points. Middle means middle.. not top decile.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:These threads always get derailed by bickering. If there are state/federal funds involved, even if it's designated merit, the school will likely require the FAFSA just to complete their accounting, confirm there's no double dipping and no additional eligibility. This is a case where OP would complete the FAFSA. The FAFSA is less info than a tax return. I don't see how a fed household would find this intrusive, cumbersome or unexpected.

I thought about this. If you google “what is middle class”, it will usually be some sort of distribution for the region area and break that up into tiers. But if you search things like how much did you need to make to afford x or y back when we grew up - potentially people in that middle income range could afford a home, healthcare, and if it was a good job with a pension, they also had a retirement. I live in a neighborhood where people had 4-5 kids or more (back in the 1960’s) , sometimes one income, sent the kids to Catholic school and they could retire with a pension and healthcare. Fast forward to today and say 120K for a family of four in Alexandria is considered middle income with 49% adults in the region - what that lifestyle looks like for middle income is different now than it was when we were growing up and it’s hard to say it’s a pick 3 - do you want to buy a single family home, fund retirement, have adequate healthcare, be able to have a parent stay home, pay for college etc. This shifts that you have to be in that tier beyond middle income to afford what back is generation ago was middle class. And one more income tier to live the lifestyle that was x years ago considered upper middle class.

We have a million times more wants than families had in the 60s and 70s.

What was considered middle class back then is comparable to what is considered lower class now.

Such as 3 generations in one home, 4 to 6 kids in a 3 bedroom - 1 bathroom house with no AC, a 10x12 ft eat in kitchen, no dishwasher, 1 small TV, 1 family car, eating out only on birthdays/special occasion, no tracel sports - SAT prep - private voice lessons - dance competition team - specialized summer camps, kids getting jobs around middle school like babysitting/mowing lawns, no flying vacations...

300K is rich and everyone posting here has a far more luxurious lifestyle than any middle class family from the 60s or 70s.