Raising kids in a competitive UMC community? Would you do it all over again?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:There are plenty of places in the DC area which are middle class and not competitive UMC environments OP.

You can choose to live in a super competitive school district or go to an expensive private school, or you can live in a less expensive area with decent mid tier public schools, even in the DC area. The choice is yours OP.

Not OP, but again, I completely reject this. We moved out to Loudoun County, to a diverse area with middling public schools. Our MS/HS hover around a 4 on Great Schools. While this did maybe result in less academic competition (in numbers of kids, the competitive kids are still competitive), there is still tremendous financial competition. My husband and I call it the "arms race" and its definitely contagious. Some people cannot stand when others have something better than they do and must immediately remedy the situation. Tons of fancy 60-70k SUVs (the latest trend seems to be a fully loaded Tahoe), $100k kitchens, second homes, new cars for teenagers, expensive name brand clothing and shoes (most teens are wearing a sneaker that costs $150+) etc. You would have to be blind or oblivious not to notice. A friend of mine recently told me she no longer wants to host at her home because she is embarrassed that her kitchen is old and not remodeled.

I'm pretty sure Loudon county is the richest county in Virginia, or actually the entire country. So not only do you live in the middle of nowhere, but you have crappy schools and you didn't remotely escape that striver mindset.

I’m not going to bother explaining statistics to you, but highest median household income does not equal net worth or even mean/average household income. Most of the families doing all this striving are barely breaking $300k. They are just terrible with money and value superficial things.

Ok? What's your point? I understand statistics, thanks. The point is that the person saying they moved to Loudon County and are then shocked that they're surrounded by strivers missed the memo that that's exactly the kind of person who lives in Loudon County.

I’m that poster and Loudoun County is not a monolith. My kids high school has 40% of students on free and reduced lunch. Saying the medical HHI in Loudoun is over $100k doesn’t mean every (or even most) families in Loudoun are UMC.

And yet you're surrounded by people driving six-figure SUVs. Ok.

LA and NYC also has plenty of poverty.

Places outside of DC seem more focused on beauty. Or DC is just an unattractive city. Lots of well educated unattractive people.

Lots of well-educated, unattractive people with no fashion sense who can't wait to tell you about how well-educated they are... who also think they are making great sacrifices to "help government" while raking in 300k, or, more often, quietly drawing from a family trust and making 150k but having a complex about it because their sister/brother/identical twin is a neurosurgeon in LA/food stylist in NYC and has a much cooler life.

What’s with the fixation on people not being attractive or having fashion sense (which I don’t even think it’s true??)? Like you would come off as a lot less insecure if you had valid criticisms of DC without resorting to attacking people’s looks. It just screams of insecurity and bitterness which are traits you ironically accuse the uglies of…

Not the pp. I am from NYC and people are more attractive in NYC. They dress better and better put together. I used to live and work in Manhattan. Even though I was not especially into fashion, I had retail flagships with their newest and hottest merchandise on display for the world to see. I would buy this and dress stylish. DC isn’t a fashion hub. As pp pointed out, most jobs in dc are relatively boring, especially feds.

So you aren’t friends with people who aren’t fashionable enough for you?

I have now lived in DC for over a decade. I’m absolutely no longer fashionable. My friends in dc are mostly not fashionable either. I don’t choose my friends based on how they look. We wear vineyard vines, lily Pulitzer, lululemon, athleta and Patagonia. I walk around in uggs. None of these are fashionable. I was never brand specific in my shopping in nyc or when I shopped in other cities and countries. I loved boutiques and designers I never heard of before.

Is there a point in there somewhere?

DC is less fashionable than NYC and is less attractive than NYC.

After living in an area, it is only natural for people to blend in with their environment. OP is referring to UMC neighborhoods. My kids fit in and thrive in our UMC/UC neighborhood. None of us are very fashionable, just like our peers.

So? No one is saying Lululemon or Ugg is fashionable. We are saying it’s popular with teens and there is pressure on kids to have the expensive brands.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:There are plenty of places in the DC area which are middle class and not competitive UMC environments OP.

You can choose to live in a super competitive school district or go to an expensive private school, or you can live in a less expensive area with decent mid tier public schools, even in the DC area. The choice is yours OP.

Not OP, but again, I completely reject this. We moved out to Loudoun County, to a diverse area with middling public schools. Our MS/HS hover around a 4 on Great Schools. While this did maybe result in less academic competition (in numbers of kids, the competitive kids are still competitive), there is still tremendous financial competition. My husband and I call it the "arms race" and its definitely contagious. Some people cannot stand when others have something better than they do and must immediately remedy the situation. Tons of fancy 60-70k SUVs (the latest trend seems to be a fully loaded Tahoe), $100k kitchens, second homes, new cars for teenagers, expensive name brand clothing and shoes (most teens are wearing a sneaker that costs $150+) etc. You would have to be blind or oblivious not to notice. A friend of mine recently told me she no longer wants to host at her home because she is embarrassed that her kitchen is old and not remodeled.

I'm pretty sure Loudon county is the richest county in Virginia, or actually the entire country. So not only do you live in the middle of nowhere, but you have crappy schools and you didn't remotely escape that striver mindset.

I’m not going to bother explaining statistics to you, but highest median household income does not equal net worth or even mean/average household income. Most of the families doing all this striving are barely breaking $300k. They are just terrible with money and value superficial things.

Ok? What's your point? I understand statistics, thanks. The point is that the person saying they moved to Loudon County and are then shocked that they're surrounded by strivers missed the memo that that's exactly the kind of person who lives in Loudon County.

I’m that poster and Loudoun County is not a monolith. My kids high school has 40% of students on free and reduced lunch. Saying the medical HHI in Loudoun is over $100k doesn’t mean every (or even most) families in Loudoun are UMC.

And yet you're surrounded by people driving six-figure SUVs. Ok.

LA and NYC also has plenty of poverty.

Places outside of DC seem more focused on beauty. Or DC is just an unattractive city. Lots of well educated unattractive people.

Lots of well-educated, unattractive people with no fashion sense who can't wait to tell you about how well-educated they are... who also think they are making great sacrifices to "help government" while raking in 300k, or, more often, quietly drawing from a family trust and making 150k but having a complex about it because their sister/brother/identical twin is a neurosurgeon in LA/food stylist in NYC and has a much cooler life.

What’s with the fixation on people not being attractive or having fashion sense (which I don’t even think it’s true??)? Like you would come off as a lot less insecure if you had valid criticisms of DC without resorting to attacking people’s looks. It just screams of insecurity and bitterness which are traits you ironically accuse the uglies of…

Not the pp. I am from NYC and people are more attractive in NYC. They dress better and better put together. I used to live and work in Manhattan. Even though I was not especially into fashion, I had retail flagships with their newest and hottest merchandise on display for the world to see. I would buy this and dress stylish. DC isn’t a fashion hub. As pp pointed out, most jobs in dc are relatively boring, especially feds.

So you aren’t friends with people who aren’t fashionable enough for you?

I have now lived in DC for over a decade. I’m absolutely no longer fashionable. My friends in dc are mostly not fashionable either. I don’t choose my friends based on how they look. We wear vineyard vines, lily Pulitzer, lululemon, athleta and Patagonia. I walk around in uggs. None of these are fashionable. I was never brand specific in my shopping in nyc or when I shopped in other cities and countries. I loved boutiques and designers I never heard of before.

With those brands, at least you’re safe from being hit on by men.

I have been married for 20 years and have teens. I’m not trying to get hit on by men.

I know a few divorced women in their fifties dating again. I don’t envy them.

Going back to the OP and the UMC neighborhood. Our kids are used to people who are well educated. Dh and I both attended ivy schools as did our siblings and many of our friends. They are mostly all grad school educated at top schools. Everyone we know also has money. I would rather my children be around hard working smart people than superficial or uneducated people. While I don’t mind if someone is MC/LMC, I won’t actively seek them out.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:There are plenty of places in the DC area which are middle class and not competitive UMC environments OP.

You can choose to live in a super competitive school district or go to an expensive private school, or you can live in a less expensive area with decent mid tier public schools, even in the DC area. The choice is yours OP.

Not OP, but again, I completely reject this. We moved out to Loudoun County, to a diverse area with middling public schools. Our MS/HS hover around a 4 on Great Schools. While this did maybe result in less academic competition (in numbers of kids, the competitive kids are still competitive), there is still tremendous financial competition. My husband and I call it the "arms race" and its definitely contagious. Some people cannot stand when others have something better than they do and must immediately remedy the situation. Tons of fancy 60-70k SUVs (the latest trend seems to be a fully loaded Tahoe), $100k kitchens, second homes, new cars for teenagers, expensive name brand clothing and shoes (most teens are wearing a sneaker that costs $150+) etc. You would have to be blind or oblivious not to notice. A friend of mine recently told me she no longer wants to host at her home because she is embarrassed that her kitchen is old and not remodeled.

I'm pretty sure Loudon county is the richest county in Virginia, or actually the entire country. So not only do you live in the middle of nowhere, but you have crappy schools and you didn't remotely escape that striver mindset.

I’m not going to bother explaining statistics to you, but highest median household income does not equal net worth or even mean/average household income. Most of the families doing all this striving are barely breaking $300k. They are just terrible with money and value superficial things.

Ok? What's your point? I understand statistics, thanks. The point is that the person saying they moved to Loudon County and are then shocked that they're surrounded by strivers missed the memo that that's exactly the kind of person who lives in Loudon County.

I’m that poster and Loudoun County is not a monolith. My kids high school has 40% of students on free and reduced lunch. Saying the medical HHI in Loudoun is over $100k doesn’t mean every (or even most) families in Loudoun are UMC.

And yet you're surrounded by people driving six-figure SUVs. Ok.

LA and NYC also has plenty of poverty.

Places outside of DC seem more focused on beauty. Or DC is just an unattractive city. Lots of well educated unattractive people.

Lots of well-educated, unattractive people with no fashion sense who can't wait to tell you about how well-educated they are... who also think they are making great sacrifices to "help government" while raking in 300k, or, more often, quietly drawing from a family trust and making 150k but having a complex about it because their sister/brother/identical twin is a neurosurgeon in LA/food stylist in NYC and has a much cooler life.

What’s with the fixation on people not being attractive or having fashion sense (which I don’t even think it’s true??)? Like you would come off as a lot less insecure if you had valid criticisms of DC without resorting to attacking people’s looks. It just screams of insecurity and bitterness which are traits you ironically accuse the uglies of…

Not the pp. I am from NYC and people are more attractive in NYC. They dress better and better put together. I used to live and work in Manhattan. Even though I was not especially into fashion, I had retail flagships with their newest and hottest merchandise on display for the world to see. I would buy this and dress stylish. DC isn’t a fashion hub. As pp pointed out, most jobs in dc are relatively boring, especially feds.

So you aren’t friends with people who aren’t fashionable enough for you?

I have now lived in DC for over a decade. I’m absolutely no longer fashionable. My friends in dc are mostly not fashionable either. I don’t choose my friends based on how they look. We wear vineyard vines, lily Pulitzer, lululemon, athleta and Patagonia. I walk around in uggs. None of these are fashionable. I was never brand specific in my shopping in nyc or when I shopped in other cities and countries. I loved boutiques and designers I never heard of before.

Is there a point in there somewhere?

DC is less fashionable than NYC and is less attractive than NYC.

After living in an area, it is only natural for people to blend in with their environment. OP is referring to UMC neighborhoods. My kids fit in and thrive in our UMC/UC neighborhood. None of us are very fashionable, just like our peers.

So? No one is saying Lululemon or Ugg is fashionable. We are saying it’s popular with teens and there is pressure on kids to have the expensive brands.

We have a seven figure HHI and don’t think uggs are expensive. My kids don’t feel pressure to have expensive brands.

I may think a teen wearing a $3k moncler coat might be a bit much but $100 leggings seem fine to me. Buy your kid some Lululemon leggings. Sheesh.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:There are plenty of places in the DC area which are middle class and not competitive UMC environments OP.

You can choose to live in a super competitive school district or go to an expensive private school, or you can live in a less expensive area with decent mid tier public schools, even in the DC area. The choice is yours OP.

Not OP, but again, I completely reject this. We moved out to Loudoun County, to a diverse area with middling public schools. Our MS/HS hover around a 4 on Great Schools. While this did maybe result in less academic competition (in numbers of kids, the competitive kids are still competitive), there is still tremendous financial competition. My husband and I call it the "arms race" and its definitely contagious. Some people cannot stand when others have something better than they do and must immediately remedy the situation. Tons of fancy 60-70k SUVs (the latest trend seems to be a fully loaded Tahoe), $100k kitchens, second homes, new cars for teenagers, expensive name brand clothing and shoes (most teens are wearing a sneaker that costs $150+) etc. You would have to be blind or oblivious not to notice. A friend of mine recently told me she no longer wants to host at her home because she is embarrassed that her kitchen is old and not remodeled.

I'm pretty sure Loudon county is the richest county in Virginia, or actually the entire country. So not only do you live in the middle of nowhere, but you have crappy schools and you didn't remotely escape that striver mindset.

I’m not going to bother explaining statistics to you, but highest median household income does not equal net worth or even mean/average household income. Most of the families doing all this striving are barely breaking $300k. They are just terrible with money and value superficial things.

Ok? What's your point? I understand statistics, thanks. The point is that the person saying they moved to Loudon County and are then shocked that they're surrounded by strivers missed the memo that that's exactly the kind of person who lives in Loudon County.

I’m that poster and Loudoun County is not a monolith. My kids high school has 40% of students on free and reduced lunch. Saying the medical HHI in Loudoun is over $100k doesn’t mean every (or even most) families in Loudoun are UMC.

And yet you're surrounded by people driving six-figure SUVs. Ok.

LA and NYC also has plenty of poverty.

Places outside of DC seem more focused on beauty. Or DC is just an unattractive city. Lots of well educated unattractive people.

Lots of well-educated, unattractive people with no fashion sense who can't wait to tell you about how well-educated they are... who also think they are making great sacrifices to "help government" while raking in 300k, or, more often, quietly drawing from a family trust and making 150k but having a complex about it because their sister/brother/identical twin is a neurosurgeon in LA/food stylist in NYC and has a much cooler life.

What’s with the fixation on people not being attractive or having fashion sense (which I don’t even think it’s true??)? Like you would come off as a lot less insecure if you had valid criticisms of DC without resorting to attacking people’s looks. It just screams of insecurity and bitterness which are traits you ironically accuse the uglies of…

Not the pp. I am from NYC and people are more attractive in NYC. They dress better and better put together. I used to live and work in Manhattan. Even though I was not especially into fashion, I had retail flagships with their newest and hottest merchandise on display for the world to see. I would buy this and dress stylish. DC isn’t a fashion hub. As pp pointed out, most jobs in dc are relatively boring, especially feds.

So you aren’t friends with people who aren’t fashionable enough for you?

I have now lived in DC for over a decade. I’m absolutely no longer fashionable. My friends in dc are mostly not fashionable either. I don’t choose my friends based on how they look. We wear vineyard vines, lily Pulitzer, lululemon, athleta and Patagonia. I walk around in uggs. None of these are fashionable. I was never brand specific in my shopping in nyc or when I shopped in other cities and countries. I loved boutiques and designers I never heard of before.

Is there a point in there somewhere?

DC is less fashionable than NYC and is less attractive than NYC.

After living in an area, it is only natural for people to blend in with their environment. OP is referring to UMC neighborhoods. My kids fit in and thrive in our UMC/UC neighborhood. None of us are very fashionable, just like our peers.

So? No one is saying Lululemon or Ugg is fashionable. We are saying it’s popular with teens and there is pressure on kids to have the expensive brands.

We have a seven figure HHI and don’t think uggs are expensive. My kids don’t feel pressure to have expensive brands.

I may think a teen wearing a $3k moncler coat might be a bit much but $100 leggings seem fine to me. Buy your kid some Lululemon leggings. Sheesh.

Way to miss the point.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:There are plenty of places in the DC area which are middle class and not competitive UMC environments OP.

You can choose to live in a super competitive school district or go to an expensive private school, or you can live in a less expensive area with decent mid tier public schools, even in the DC area. The choice is yours OP.

Not OP, but again, I completely reject this. We moved out to Loudoun County, to a diverse area with middling public schools. Our MS/HS hover around a 4 on Great Schools. While this did maybe result in less academic competition (in numbers of kids, the competitive kids are still competitive), there is still tremendous financial competition. My husband and I call it the "arms race" and its definitely contagious. Some people cannot stand when others have something better than they do and must immediately remedy the situation. Tons of fancy 60-70k SUVs (the latest trend seems to be a fully loaded Tahoe), $100k kitchens, second homes, new cars for teenagers, expensive name brand clothing and shoes (most teens are wearing a sneaker that costs $150+) etc. You would have to be blind or oblivious not to notice. A friend of mine recently told me she no longer wants to host at her home because she is embarrassed that her kitchen is old and not remodeled.

I'm pretty sure Loudon county is the richest county in Virginia, or actually the entire country. So not only do you live in the middle of nowhere, but you have crappy schools and you didn't remotely escape that striver mindset.

I’m not going to bother explaining statistics to you, but highest median household income does not equal net worth or even mean/average household income. Most of the families doing all this striving are barely breaking $300k. They are just terrible with money and value superficial things.

Ok? What's your point? I understand statistics, thanks. The point is that the person saying they moved to Loudon County and are then shocked that they're surrounded by strivers missed the memo that that's exactly the kind of person who lives in Loudon County.

I’m that poster and Loudoun County is not a monolith. My kids high school has 40% of students on free and reduced lunch. Saying the medical HHI in Loudoun is over $100k doesn’t mean every (or even most) families in Loudoun are UMC.

And yet you're surrounded by people driving six-figure SUVs. Ok.

LA and NYC also has plenty of poverty.

Places outside of DC seem more focused on beauty. Or DC is just an unattractive city. Lots of well educated unattractive people.

Lots of well-educated, unattractive people with no fashion sense who can't wait to tell you about how well-educated they are... who also think they are making great sacrifices to "help government" while raking in 300k, or, more often, quietly drawing from a family trust and making 150k but having a complex about it because their sister/brother/identical twin is a neurosurgeon in LA/food stylist in NYC and has a much cooler life.

What’s with the fixation on people not being attractive or having fashion sense (which I don’t even think it’s true??)? Like you would come off as a lot less insecure if you had valid criticisms of DC without resorting to attacking people’s looks. It just screams of insecurity and bitterness which are traits you ironically accuse the uglies of…

Not the pp. I am from NYC and people are more attractive in NYC. They dress better and better put together. I used to live and work in Manhattan. Even though I was not especially into fashion, I had retail flagships with their newest and hottest merchandise on display for the world to see. I would buy this and dress stylish. DC isn’t a fashion hub. As pp pointed out, most jobs in dc are relatively boring, especially feds.

So you aren’t friends with people who aren’t fashionable enough for you?

I have now lived in DC for over a decade. I’m absolutely no longer fashionable. My friends in dc are mostly not fashionable either. I don’t choose my friends based on how they look. We wear vineyard vines, lily Pulitzer, lululemon, athleta and Patagonia. I walk around in uggs. None of these are fashionable. I was never brand specific in my shopping in nyc or when I shopped in other cities and countries. I loved boutiques and designers I never heard of before.

With those brands, at least you’re safe from being hit on by men.

I have been married for 20 years and have teens. I’m not trying to get hit on by men.

I know a few divorced women in their fifties dating again. I don’t envy them.

Going back to the OP and the UMC neighborhood. Our kids are used to people who are well educated. Dh and I both attended ivy schools as did our siblings and many of our friends. They are mostly all grad school educated at top schools. Everyone we know also has money. I would rather my children be around hard working smart people than superficial or uneducated people. While I don’t mind if someone is MC/LMC, I won’t actively seek them out.

My God you sound insufferable. So the options are hard working and smart (and well off) or uneducated? And you “don’t mind” if someone is MC/LMC? So you know hard working and smart people aren’t always (or usually) loaded? Do you hear yourself? This is what the OP was talking about. But OP-you don’t have to surround yourself with people like this condescending snob. DH and I have graduate degrees as do most of my kids’ friends’ parents. Lots of smart people doing cool things. And no of them sound like this IRL.

[Anonymous]

I grew up in Fairfield County, CT and it was absolutely miserable. I would not do it again.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:There are plenty of places in the DC area which are middle class and not competitive UMC environments OP.

You can choose to live in a super competitive school district or go to an expensive private school, or you can live in a less expensive area with decent mid tier public schools, even in the DC area. The choice is yours OP.

Not OP, but again, I completely reject this. We moved out to Loudoun County, to a diverse area with middling public schools. Our MS/HS hover around a 4 on Great Schools. While this did maybe result in less academic competition (in numbers of kids, the competitive kids are still competitive), there is still tremendous financial competition. My husband and I call it the "arms race" and its definitely contagious. Some people cannot stand when others have something better than they do and must immediately remedy the situation. Tons of fancy 60-70k SUVs (the latest trend seems to be a fully loaded Tahoe), $100k kitchens, second homes, new cars for teenagers, expensive name brand clothing and shoes (most teens are wearing a sneaker that costs $150+) etc. You would have to be blind or oblivious not to notice. A friend of mine recently told me she no longer wants to host at her home because she is embarrassed that her kitchen is old and not remodeled.

I'm pretty sure Loudon county is the richest county in Virginia, or actually the entire country. So not only do you live in the middle of nowhere, but you have crappy schools and you didn't remotely escape that striver mindset.

I’m not going to bother explaining statistics to you, but highest median household income does not equal net worth or even mean/average household income. Most of the families doing all this striving are barely breaking $300k. They are just terrible with money and value superficial things.

Ok? What's your point? I understand statistics, thanks. The point is that the person saying they moved to Loudon County and are then shocked that they're surrounded by strivers missed the memo that that's exactly the kind of person who lives in Loudon County.

I’m that poster and Loudoun County is not a monolith. My kids high school has 40% of students on free and reduced lunch. Saying the medical HHI in Loudoun is over $100k doesn’t mean every (or even most) families in Loudoun are UMC.

And yet you're surrounded by people driving six-figure SUVs. Ok.

LA and NYC also has plenty of poverty.

Places outside of DC seem more focused on beauty. Or DC is just an unattractive city. Lots of well educated unattractive people.

Lots of well-educated, unattractive people with no fashion sense who can't wait to tell you about how well-educated they are... who also think they are making great sacrifices to "help government" while raking in 300k, or, more often, quietly drawing from a family trust and making 150k but having a complex about it because their sister/brother/identical twin is a neurosurgeon in LA/food stylist in NYC and has a much cooler life.

What’s with the fixation on people not being attractive or having fashion sense (which I don’t even think it’s true??)? Like you would come off as a lot less insecure if you had valid criticisms of DC without resorting to attacking people’s looks. It just screams of insecurity and bitterness which are traits you ironically accuse the uglies of…

Not the pp. I am from NYC and people are more attractive in NYC. They dress better and better put together. I used to live and work in Manhattan. Even though I was not especially into fashion, I had retail flagships with their newest and hottest merchandise on display for the world to see. I would buy this and dress stylish. DC isn’t a fashion hub. As pp pointed out, most jobs in dc are relatively boring, especially feds.

So you aren’t friends with people who aren’t fashionable enough for you?

I have now lived in DC for over a decade. I’m absolutely no longer fashionable. My friends in dc are mostly not fashionable either. I don’t choose my friends based on how they look. We wear vineyard vines, lily Pulitzer, lululemon, athleta and Patagonia. I walk around in uggs. None of these are fashionable. I was never brand specific in my shopping in nyc or when I shopped in other cities and countries. I loved boutiques and designers I never heard of before.

Is there a point in there somewhere?

DC is less fashionable than NYC and is less attractive than NYC.

After living in an area, it is only natural for people to blend in with their environment. OP is referring to UMC neighborhoods. My kids fit in and thrive in our UMC/UC neighborhood. None of us are very fashionable, just like our peers.

So? No one is saying Lululemon or Ugg is fashionable. We are saying it’s popular with teens and there is pressure on kids to have the expensive brands.

We have a seven figure HHI and don’t think uggs are expensive. My kids don’t feel pressure to have expensive brands.

I may think a teen wearing a $3k moncler coat might be a bit much but $100 leggings seem fine to me. Buy your kid some Lululemon leggings. Sheesh.

Way to miss the point.

No. She does not miss the point.

If you make over 1mil a year and are unhappy about kids wearing/ expecting $100 leggings, you are going to be unhappy anywhere because unhappiness comes from within you.

If you make 300k like my household, and can't keep up with your neighbors who make over 1 mil, move a little further out. Don't expect your neighbors who make over 1mil to act like they make 300k so your kids can feel better. Imagine you, a grown adult expecting this and complaining about kids' expectations.

There are educated smart people who don’t make 1 mil a year. Find a neighborhood with those and move. My neighbors include surgeons, PHD scientists, lawyers, psychologists, etc. Our HHI range from 250 - 600k, and our kids don't wear $100 leggings because we cannot afford them.

If we could afford those leggings, we would not care that the kids expected them, not because we think they are cheap, but because its not a big issue in the grand scheme of things. Life is short too short to make up problems.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:There are plenty of places in the DC area which are middle class and not competitive UMC environments OP.

You can choose to live in a super competitive school district or go to an expensive private school, or you can live in a less expensive area with decent mid tier public schools, even in the DC area. The choice is yours OP.

Not OP, but again, I completely reject this. We moved out to Loudoun County, to a diverse area with middling public schools. Our MS/HS hover around a 4 on Great Schools. While this did maybe result in less academic competition (in numbers of kids, the competitive kids are still competitive), there is still tremendous financial competition. My husband and I call it the "arms race" and its definitely contagious. Some people cannot stand when others have something better than they do and must immediately remedy the situation. Tons of fancy 60-70k SUVs (the latest trend seems to be a fully loaded Tahoe), $100k kitchens, second homes, new cars for teenagers, expensive name brand clothing and shoes (most teens are wearing a sneaker that costs $150+) etc. You would have to be blind or oblivious not to notice. A friend of mine recently told me she no longer wants to host at her home because she is embarrassed that her kitchen is old and not remodeled.

I'm pretty sure Loudon county is the richest county in Virginia, or actually the entire country. So not only do you live in the middle of nowhere, but you have crappy schools and you didn't remotely escape that striver mindset.

I’m not going to bother explaining statistics to you, but highest median household income does not equal net worth or even mean/average household income. Most of the families doing all this striving are barely breaking $300k. They are just terrible with money and value superficial things.

Ok? What's your point? I understand statistics, thanks. The point is that the person saying they moved to Loudon County and are then shocked that they're surrounded by strivers missed the memo that that's exactly the kind of person who lives in Loudon County.

I’m that poster and Loudoun County is not a monolith. My kids high school has 40% of students on free and reduced lunch. Saying the medical HHI in Loudoun is over $100k doesn’t mean every (or even most) families in Loudoun are UMC.

And yet you're surrounded by people driving six-figure SUVs. Ok.

LA and NYC also has plenty of poverty.

Places outside of DC seem more focused on beauty. Or DC is just an unattractive city. Lots of well educated unattractive people.

Lots of well-educated, unattractive people with no fashion sense who can't wait to tell you about how well-educated they are... who also think they are making great sacrifices to "help government" while raking in 300k, or, more often, quietly drawing from a family trust and making 150k but having a complex about it because their sister/brother/identical twin is a neurosurgeon in LA/food stylist in NYC and has a much cooler life.

What’s with the fixation on people not being attractive or having fashion sense (which I don’t even think it’s true??)? Like you would come off as a lot less insecure if you had valid criticisms of DC without resorting to attacking people’s looks. It just screams of insecurity and bitterness which are traits you ironically accuse the uglies of…

Not the pp. I am from NYC and people are more attractive in NYC. They dress better and better put together. I used to live and work in Manhattan. Even though I was not especially into fashion, I had retail flagships with their newest and hottest merchandise on display for the world to see. I would buy this and dress stylish. DC isn’t a fashion hub. As pp pointed out, most jobs in dc are relatively boring, especially feds.

So you aren’t friends with people who aren’t fashionable enough for you?

I have now lived in DC for over a decade. I’m absolutely no longer fashionable. My friends in dc are mostly not fashionable either. I don’t choose my friends based on how they look. We wear vineyard vines, lily Pulitzer, lululemon, athleta and Patagonia. I walk around in uggs. None of these are fashionable. I was never brand specific in my shopping in nyc or when I shopped in other cities and countries. I loved boutiques and designers I never heard of before.

Is there a point in there somewhere?

DC is less fashionable than NYC and is less attractive than NYC.

After living in an area, it is only natural for people to blend in with their environment. OP is referring to UMC neighborhoods. My kids fit in and thrive in our UMC/UC neighborhood. None of us are very fashionable, just like our peers.

So? No one is saying Lululemon or Ugg is fashionable. We are saying it’s popular with teens and there is pressure on kids to have the expensive brands.

We have a seven figure HHI and don’t think uggs are expensive. My kids don’t feel pressure to have expensive brands.

I may think a teen wearing a $3k moncler coat might be a bit much but $100 leggings seem fine to me. Buy your kid some Lululemon leggings. Sheesh.

Way to miss the point.

No. She does not miss the point.

If you make over 1mil a year and are unhappy about kids wearing/ expecting $100 leggings, you are going to be unhappy anywhere because unhappiness comes from within you.

If you make 300k like my household, and can't keep up with your neighbors who make over 1 mil, move a little further out. Don't expect your neighbors who make over 1mil to act like they make 300k so your kids can feel better. Imagine you, a grown adult expecting this and complaining about kids' expectations.

There are educated smart people who don’t make 1 mil a year. Find a neighborhood with those and move. My neighbors include surgeons, PHD scientists, lawyers, psychologists, etc. Our HHI range from 250 - 600k, and our kids don't wear $100 leggings because we cannot afford them.

If we could afford those leggings, we would not care that the kids expected them, not because we think they are cheap, but because its not a big issue in the grand scheme of things. Life is short too short to make up problems.

I have friends in MC neighborhoods and I think the kids in these neighborhoods actually value the material items more than the kids in the richer neighborhoods. A girl who is used to buying $100 items but a middle class girl may want those items more even if she can’t afford it.

I posted previously that I had guess and Calvin Klein jeans in the 90s. I did not grow up UMC. I was solidly middle class but lived in an UMC. My friends from all over the country clearly remember the same jeans and they were from various areas from poor to rich. I worked for my jeans. I may have had to work a week to buy those jeans. My parents didn’t buy them for me or they may have gotten me an outfit for my birthday. Sephora didn’t exist back then and I was fine with cvs cosmetics.

My friends also talked about champion sweatshirts, crop sweaters, etc. we were simply comparing current fashions to when we were teens. None of these friends grew up rich. We may have had a job at the mall or babysitting.

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Anonymous wrote:There are plenty of places in the DC area which are middle class and not competitive UMC environments OP.

You can choose to live in a super competitive school district or go to an expensive private school, or you can live in a less expensive area with decent mid tier public schools, even in the DC area. The choice is yours OP.

Not OP, but again, I completely reject this. We moved out to Loudoun County, to a diverse area with middling public schools. Our MS/HS hover around a 4 on Great Schools. While this did maybe result in less academic competition (in numbers of kids, the competitive kids are still competitive), there is still tremendous financial competition. My husband and I call it the "arms race" and its definitely contagious. Some people cannot stand when others have something better than they do and must immediately remedy the situation. Tons of fancy 60-70k SUVs (the latest trend seems to be a fully loaded Tahoe), $100k kitchens, second homes, new cars for teenagers, expensive name brand clothing and shoes (most teens are wearing a sneaker that costs $150+) etc. You would have to be blind or oblivious not to notice. A friend of mine recently told me she no longer wants to host at her home because she is embarrassed that her kitchen is old and not remodeled.

I'm pretty sure Loudon county is the richest county in Virginia, or actually the entire country. So not only do you live in the middle of nowhere, but you have crappy schools and you didn't remotely escape that striver mindset.

I’m not going to bother explaining statistics to you, but highest median household income does not equal net worth or even mean/average household income. Most of the families doing all this striving are barely breaking $300k. They are just terrible with money and value superficial things.

Ok? What's your point? I understand statistics, thanks. The point is that the person saying they moved to Loudon County and are then shocked that they're surrounded by strivers missed the memo that that's exactly the kind of person who lives in Loudon County.

I’m that poster and Loudoun County is not a monolith. My kids high school has 40% of students on free and reduced lunch. Saying the medical HHI in Loudoun is over $100k doesn’t mean every (or even most) families in Loudoun are UMC.

And yet you're surrounded by people driving six-figure SUVs. Ok.

LA and NYC also has plenty of poverty.

Places outside of DC seem more focused on beauty. Or DC is just an unattractive city. Lots of well educated unattractive people.

Lots of well-educated, unattractive people with no fashion sense who can't wait to tell you about how well-educated they are... who also think they are making great sacrifices to "help government" while raking in 300k, or, more often, quietly drawing from a family trust and making 150k but having a complex about it because their sister/brother/identical twin is a neurosurgeon in LA/food stylist in NYC and has a much cooler life.

What’s with the fixation on people not being attractive or having fashion sense (which I don’t even think it’s true??)? Like you would come off as a lot less insecure if you had valid criticisms of DC without resorting to attacking people’s looks. It just screams of insecurity and bitterness which are traits you ironically accuse the uglies of…

Not the pp. I am from NYC and people are more attractive in NYC. They dress better and better put together. I used to live and work in Manhattan. Even though I was not especially into fashion, I had retail flagships with their newest and hottest merchandise on display for the world to see. I would buy this and dress stylish. DC isn’t a fashion hub. As pp pointed out, most jobs in dc are relatively boring, especially feds.

So you aren’t friends with people who aren’t fashionable enough for you?

I have now lived in DC for over a decade. I’m absolutely no longer fashionable. My friends in dc are mostly not fashionable either. I don’t choose my friends based on how they look. We wear vineyard vines, lily Pulitzer, lululemon, athleta and Patagonia. I walk around in uggs. None of these are fashionable. I was never brand specific in my shopping in nyc or when I shopped in other cities and countries. I loved boutiques and designers I never heard of before.

With those brands, at least you’re safe from being hit on by men.

I have been married for 20 years and have teens. I’m not trying to get hit on by men.

I know a few divorced women in their fifties dating again. I don’t envy them.

Going back to the OP and the UMC neighborhood. Our kids are used to people who are well educated. Dh and I both attended ivy schools as did our siblings and many of our friends. They are mostly all grad school educated at top schools. Everyone we know also has money. I would rather my children be around hard working smart people than superficial or uneducated people. While I don’t mind if someone is MC/LMC, I won’t actively seek them out.

Cool story

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are currently raising our kids in a very competitive UMC community. There’s some racial diversity but next to no socioeconomic diversity. Top 1 percent ranked public school in the national, starting price for a modest house is 1.5-2n… it’s very much a bubble.

I have been down your "road not taken" after two stints living in the MD suburbs in "W" school neighborhoods.

I enjoyed the more relaxed, somewhat less UMC communities that I lived in before and after my year at a "W" feeder middle school quite a long time ago. I found there was a lot more snobbery and pointless academic pressure at that school compared to where I had come from and where I lived next after a second rapid interstate move. That experience is why I decided that I would never endorse attending "the best" schools just based on reputation.

In my 20s, I worked in DC and lived in the MD catchment area of another "W" school. Plainly put, my husband and I couldn't figure out how to finance the life we wanted in that area so we moved away. At the time, I would have aspired to a $450-$650K tiny colonial somewhat within walking distance to the Bethesda Metro. These houses are now 2x-4x the price. Could not have afforded that kind of house before grad school and would have sacrificed probably 10 years of young family life to getting financially comfortable if we had moved back to where I wanted to live.

We now live in a small suburban city far from the DMV that is much like the old Bethesda when it was mostly homey and a low rise downtown. I absolutely love it.

The school district is considered Top 50 in the state. It is socioeconomically diverse LMC/MC/some UMC but not very racially diverse. However, it's much more diverse than my elementary or high school (outside the DMV).

Here have been the pros:

-Kids are able to relax and still do well, no insecurities and no tears related to competition
-Kids understand what it means to be poor and what it means to be privileged, and there is almost no bullying based on status since the richest kids are very low-key about it
-Extracurriculars are sufficient/everyone can participate/weeding out is rare
-Kids can easily be leaders

Here are the cons:

-UMC striver values are sometimes alien. School admins and counselors don't understand why parents care so much about particular school issues. And they are more focused on consensus and getting by in a pleasant manner than on encouraging excellence.

-Kids are sometimes bored because education is not hard enough given what local parents will accept and few subjects have ability tracking until high school.

-Kids slack because they can, and this can result in grade dips.

-Few friends can serve as role models and there is a limited choice of friends who are highly compatible.

-Some racial tensions in the schools due to the times we are living in, and precisely because it is not a homogenous UMC community. My kids have definitely had to grapple with some uncomfortable situations that I never experienced as a child. Don't know if that will make them more or less tolerant in the end. I think more tolerant but also more cynical, if that makes sense.

When I talk to my friends who are in "better" districts, they also report a lot of crazy b.s. is going on in their schools. So, I conclude the main issue for my kids in an imperfect school district really relates to not being challenged enough. But my hypothesis has always been that college is really the best time to stretch one's self and that high school burnout is real. So I've been playing a long game. I will only know if my plans to protect my kids' sanity worked out once they are through college.

I have Ivy-educated parents but I'm a big believer in cost-efficiency so my household is state flagship-oriented. I think economically we've achieved the same standard of living as my Ivy relatives except for not having pensions due to being Gen X and our career choices. I can say that the economics of living outside the DMV has been wonderfully manageable (house, childcare, commuting, etc.).

So, I can't answer the question of whether I would raise kids in the DMV "again". But I think on balance, I would still make the same decision to move away and raise kids elsewhere. I just want my kids to be intelligent, happy, and well-adjusted. It's a fair question, though, as to whether I'd shoot for a better school district in my current area if I had a do-over. Leaning towards no, but am not firm in that conviction. Which is why I enjoy pressing my nose to the glass that is DCUM...it's my "road not taken"!

Would you mind sharing the name of general area of your new happy home?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I think it's fine. "Middle class striver" values are hard work, the importance of education and knowledge, and earning a good living. Those are the types of values I want to inculcate in my children.

Interesting. I really dislike/reject the pervasive idea that if my teen isn't decked out head to toe in Lululemon with regular hair highlights and a $50/week Starbucks habit that there is some wrong/lacking in our family. IYKYK.

NP here. A $50/week Starbucks habit is not Middle Class. It may be UMC, but I would say it’s a rare treat.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am doing this now. Strange thing is that we used to live in a more socioeconomically diverse area with a major stressor high school and not much community. Moved to an area with a much more diverse high and fabulous community, but the income levels are much higher (and much less diversity in income).

In general, I’m happy with our choices but my ES DD came home today talking about her friends’ holiday wishlists and my jaw dropped. All fancy skincare products, luxury designer jewelry, and $150 sweatpants. These kids are 10!!!

This is on the parents and the media they allow their children to be exposed to.

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Anonymous wrote:Nobody is forcing anybody to "compete". If you feel you have to compete it is a you problem, not a them problem.

The people I know who have left this area because they wanted to raise their kids in a less competitive environment have seemed insecure to me. Instead of being happy with their home, they wanted bigger, nicer homes for less money. Felt obviously insecure if their snowflake wasn't the best on the team or the smartest in the class.

This

It’s easy to say that to an adult, it’s harder when your kids are older (tween/teen). Let’s face it. Some places in the country have a slower pace of life, and are more relaxed places to live, and some districts are pressure cookers. Telling a teen who is in a pressure cooker environment, where all their friends are focused on creating their own nonprofit for college admin or being in the running for a D1 scholarship, that it’s a “you problem” is much easier said than done. I saw what this type of environment was doing to my kids, and I chose to leave.

By the way, in our move we downsized. We certainly didn’t do it for a “bigger nicer home” (we left that behind) and we are in no way insecure.

We just wanted a different lifestyle. It has its pros and cons, but it was the right move for us, and it absolutely is a less competitive area.

It sounds like we both agree that attitude and values start at home. We live in Bethesda and send our kid to a catholic high school in DC. I know lots of kids in both private and public high schools. Your perception of what it is like to be a kid in these schools is not based in reality. Most kids are not gunning for athletic scholarships and most kids are not starting nonprofits for college admissions. It is very easy to not compete with these types because there really aren't that many of them. You are reading too much DC Urban Mom.

+1 I saw much more of that in an independent school here. The Catholic HSs are focused on community and while they celebrate achievements, it is a different vibe.

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Anonymous wrote:I think it's fine. "Middle class striver" values are hard work, the importance of education and knowledge, and earning a good living. Those are the types of values I want to inculcate in my children.

Interesting. I really dislike/reject the pervasive idea that if my teen isn't decked out head to toe in Lululemon with regular hair highlights and a $50/week Starbucks habit that there is some wrong/lacking in our family. IYKYK.

Yes, I despise this culture and it seems to be ubiquitous in all the DMV affluent areas. So shallow and boring, producing so many vapid and uber-spoiled kids.

Yes. We moved from DC a few yrs ago to a mid sized middle class town. My teen has zero interest in lululemon, Starbucks, Stanley cups and high end skincare and makeup. It just isn’t on her radar at all, or that of her friends’ and schoolmates from what I gather.

I always hear about Lululemon online. Lululemon is really not all that expensive. I have boys though who don’t care about brands.

I grew up in an affluent neighborhood. I was very confident and always got a lot of attention from the guys. A cute dress doesn’t have to be brand name. Your makeup also doesn’t have to be expensive.

Even as a middle aged woman, I see woman who spend a lot of money on makeup and that doesn’t mean she is prettier.

Teach your girls to be confident.

My friend was looking for gifts for her teen nieces and nephews. I said I read online about Stanley cups and Lululemon. She just bought it and didn’t consider it an expensive gift. Same with uggs or crocs. I hardly think these items are expensive.

Really? You don’t think $100 leggings, $120 hoodie, $45 water bottle and $100 slippers, $50 eye shadow palette is totally normal for a 12 yr old?

Not PP but i also don't find this to be a big deal. All these items taken together (<$500) are less expensive than a good phone not to mention travel and activities. it's really a drop on the bucket.

That said, I also agree with PP that boys don't care about any of that crap. They don't care about your leggings or the brand of your makeup. If you are are hot you can dress at Walmart. Teach your girls that they don't need to follow the herd - certainly not all of the time.

+1

DD learned in HS that the "herd" was vapid, mean, troubled and problematic - they were barely good friends to each other. DD moved on, and it was the best thing that ever happened to her.

Teach your child to make good friends, with good people, and like all relationships, to choose wisely - not to aspire to those who are the self described "popular" kids. The popular kids usually peak in HS - find people (DD or DS) who want the same as you, not stunted HS behaviors.

This presumes there are other friend options.

There are always other people in school, no??

I mean for girls, if you don’t want to have friends like the above, your only other real options are the theater kids, furries and gender-whatever kids. Not all girls feel comfortable with those options.

I feel so out of touch. What's a furry? And what is wrong with theater kids?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Where are y'all moving to that is so chill? Honestly, I have friends/family in UMC places all over the country (Chicago burbs, Seattle, SF, Houston, Indianapolis) and everyone is stressed and competitive and driving hours and hours for travel soccer.

TN, SC, NC, Colorado, Florida - those are the ones I personally know people left for.

I’m in a NC area coming from a competitive FL area. Both are competitive. It looks different. Just last week two parents were pushing the refs at a basketball game. Two local board members. The refs got loaded and said it’s a kids game, and the first game, we heard you. If you think this stuff doesn’t happen elsewhere you’re wrong. That said some people don’t participate because in smaller areas they don’t have money or haven’t been exposed to these ideas. And guess what they end up in lower end jobs. So I don’t know. For is it’s been good, because we are ahead of the pack but there are small town striver parents here for sure. Travel parents also. I agree friend groups help but it’s there even if you chose not to participate.