NYT and school closures

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Rs also want to disenfranchise teachers by killing teachers unions.

They DGAF about our public schools. They just want to tear it all down and get tax payers to subsidize their private school tuition.

Well, if the private schools can do a better job, it's something to consider. Do you care about educating kids or not?

I care about the vast majority of kids in our country. Not just the select few in private schools.

Do you have any sincere proposals for PUBLIC schools? Or are you just pushing for vouchers?

Do you honestly think nothing can be learned by how private schools educate? Or anyone else? You're a stooge for public schools apparently and you don't really care about the kids.

Goals shifting. I’ll play.

So what specifically do you want public schools to do? What are things that you think private schools do well that are transferable to public schools?

Why don't we have studies to determine what works and doesn't? Your repeated insistence to "Gah! Just get over it" doesn't do that. So, let's start there. What works, what doesn't, public, private, whatever. But you just want to shut down he discussion before it starts. No need to play with you anymore.

You are confusing posters. I’d love to discuss solutions.

Why do you think we don’t have studies to show what works and doesn’t?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[twitter]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ok. To some of us this was obvious from the get-go. Now go apologize to Ron DeSantis.

+ a billion.

Plus, let's demand some accountability. Time for NYT Editorial Board to resign. All of them.

Ha ha. Some of you are really pieces of work.

Worried you will lose your job?

What?

What is your interest in trying to shut down any discussion about where things went wrong? You are awfully defensive and paranoid that we might have to admit mistakes were made. Why is that?

My kids go to Catholic school, so they were back in person school in fall 2020.

Some of you are kind of crazy.

Mine too, but I had to move from a batshit crazy place to get that. Had we stayed put the kids would have been out until late spring 2021. That's messed up. There was no reason for that whatsoever. There were some terrible decisions and we should hold people accountable for that. Why not?

And you think you get to command the NYT editorial board to resign? Move on. It is 2023. The kids who were hurt the most are the ones who have crazy parents.

Why don't you just sit this conversation out if you aren't interested? What harm is it to you if people want to learn where we went wrong and how do to better in the future?

Let it go. Let it go. Some of you have lost your minds. Go for a walk or something.

You are obsessed with shutting this down. What are you so worried about? Go for a walk yourself if this doesn't interest you.

I realize that posting on a message board that the NYT editorial board must resign is crazy. And ineffective. Go run for your school board if you want to make decisions. Instead of posting nonsense here.

It's amusing how much this bothers you. Must be hitting close to home.

Everyone should be concerned with the nutters running around in 2023 trying to blame people for handling the pandemic in a reasonable, rational way. I’m sorry that the pandemic was hard for you but you’re misdirecting your anger.

The important thing now is addressing educational gaps. Focus on that.

(And glad you finally care about some of the many educational challenges that have existed for a long time and were magnified by the pandemic.)

How do you suggest we do that without admitting that there are problems? Why did the closures set kids back? What do you propose we do right now to address the problems in our public schools?

Have you ever been in a school? These problems existed before the pandemic. The pandemic just exacerbated them. Glad you are paying attention now.

Exactly.

Instead of attacking the people who are actively addressing these issues why don’t you find a way to support them.

Unless you have ulterior (political) motives.

So you are a teacher, is that why you're hyper defensive?

I’m a parent who detests irrational a-holes still attacking our schools/teachers YEARS later. It’s almost as if you don’t want to fix anything at all, just complain about it.

At least you admit your bias.

Yes, I’m biased against school-hating a-holes.

You didn't tolerate the complaining back in 2020 either. Not all of us agree that teachers and admins are beyond reproach. It's ok to hold their feet to the fire now. They were wrong.

OMG, I'm a DP and you are just gone. Out there. You don't want solutions. You want blood. Honestly, seek therapy. This anger won't help anyone. Not your kids. Not the school system. This kind of anger will lead to stupid decisions that make the situation worse.

Our kids need help. There are already teacher shortages. We need more, good teachers and parents like you will drive any decent ones out of the system. We need more funding for schools and more services for our kids. Channel your energy into that. Otherwise, you are just a worthless blowhard.

I’m touched you’re so worked up. Maybe next time you will do the right thing and advocate for schools to stay open knowing now how awful your emotionally driven, factless opinions got us to where we are. Be the change.

DP. The evidence wasn’t there. The people pushing to open no matter what in summer 2020 were irrational. “Emotionally driven, factless opinions” describe it perfectly.

Tell that to all the schools that opened in Fall 2020. If you didn't want to see the evidence, that's on you. But it was there. But you can't rewrite history to suit yourself.

They opened without evidence.

Yep, so much of the type of hindsight is 20-20 BS on this thread is a waste of time. This virus kept changing and continues to do so. It's what they do. To say they "knew" anything in Fall of 2020 is ridiculous. I actually do think schools should have reopened in person much earlier than they did in this area, but to pretend we had certainties? BS.

“Knew” in this context means “knew” to a reasonable degree of confidence. I would think that anyone who is old enough to be a parent is old enough to have discovered that there are no certainties in life.

You “knew” without substantial data to back it up. Other people were looking for actual data and/or CDC guidelines. Faulting people for being rational is ridiculous.

What are you talking about? Point to the data showing young children dying or getting seriously ill en masse at ANY point during the pandemic. You can’t, because that wasn’t happening, ever.

The ABSENCE of such cases was all the “substantial data” needed to determine that the priority should have been to keep life as normal as possible for the kids, who were not in danger, and to instead focus on keeping the elderly and other vulnerable members of society as isolated as possible for their own protection.

In late summer 2020, we did not have substantial data demonstrating that it was safe. There was IIRC just one study of a small daycare centers.

You responded to my post but you did not address the point. The absence of data showing children becoming seriously ill WAS the data.

You seem to think it’s reasonable to demand a study to prove that continuing to engage in an historically safe behavior will continue to be safe. In actuality, it is reasonable to assume a behavior that has been safe in the past will continue to be safe unless there is new evidence indicating harm. There was no such evidence to justify keeping the schools closed. At no point was Covid killing kids.

That’s not how science works…

Jesus Christ. It’s exactly how one is supposed to apply the scientific method. Generate a hypothesis (covid is gonna kill us all!), make observations (covid is killing old people and people with underlying immune, respiratory, and heart conditions), interpret results (there is a very clear and direct exponential trend of severity of outcomes from covid infection as a function of age), draw conclusions (this virus is dangerous to old people but not to kids), and in this case, suggest/implement policy (keep the schools open).

So I suppose you are correct in that “that’s not how science works” because we have an entire generation of people who don’t understand how to correctly utilize the scientific method making decisions because SCIENCE.

Further. We actually got to see real-world RCTs. Say Florida vs DC schools. And the data was clear by November/ December 2020: schools can safely open.

Right. It was NOT clear in August 2020.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[twitter]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ok. To some of us this was obvious from the get-go. Now go apologize to Ron DeSantis.

+ a billion.

Plus, let's demand some accountability. Time for NYT Editorial Board to resign. All of them.

Ha ha. Some of you are really pieces of work.

Worried you will lose your job?

What?

What is your interest in trying to shut down any discussion about where things went wrong? You are awfully defensive and paranoid that we might have to admit mistakes were made. Why is that?

My kids go to Catholic school, so they were back in person school in fall 2020.

Some of you are kind of crazy.

Mine too, but I had to move from a batshit crazy place to get that. Had we stayed put the kids would have been out until late spring 2021. That's messed up. There was no reason for that whatsoever. There were some terrible decisions and we should hold people accountable for that. Why not?

And you think you get to command the NYT editorial board to resign? Move on. It is 2023. The kids who were hurt the most are the ones who have crazy parents.

Why don't you just sit this conversation out if you aren't interested? What harm is it to you if people want to learn where we went wrong and how do to better in the future?

Let it go. Let it go. Some of you have lost your minds. Go for a walk or something.

You are obsessed with shutting this down. What are you so worried about? Go for a walk yourself if this doesn't interest you.

I realize that posting on a message board that the NYT editorial board must resign is crazy. And ineffective. Go run for your school board if you want to make decisions. Instead of posting nonsense here.

It's amusing how much this bothers you. Must be hitting close to home.

Everyone should be concerned with the nutters running around in 2023 trying to blame people for handling the pandemic in a reasonable, rational way. I’m sorry that the pandemic was hard for you but you’re misdirecting your anger.

The important thing now is addressing educational gaps. Focus on that.

(And glad you finally care about some of the many educational challenges that have existed for a long time and were magnified by the pandemic.)

How do you suggest we do that without admitting that there are problems? Why did the closures set kids back? What do you propose we do right now to address the problems in our public schools?

Have you ever been in a school? These problems existed before the pandemic. The pandemic just exacerbated them. Glad you are paying attention now.

Exactly.

Instead of attacking the people who are actively addressing these issues why don’t you find a way to support them.

Unless you have ulterior (political) motives.

So you are a teacher, is that why you're hyper defensive?

I’m a parent who detests irrational a-holes still attacking our schools/teachers YEARS later. It’s almost as if you don’t want to fix anything at all, just complain about it.

At least you admit your bias.

Yes, I’m biased against school-hating a-holes.

You didn't tolerate the complaining back in 2020 either. Not all of us agree that teachers and admins are beyond reproach. It's ok to hold their feet to the fire now. They were wrong.

OMG, I'm a DP and you are just gone. Out there. You don't want solutions. You want blood. Honestly, seek therapy. This anger won't help anyone. Not your kids. Not the school system. This kind of anger will lead to stupid decisions that make the situation worse.

Our kids need help. There are already teacher shortages. We need more, good teachers and parents like you will drive any decent ones out of the system. We need more funding for schools and more services for our kids. Channel your energy into that. Otherwise, you are just a worthless blowhard.

I’m touched you’re so worked up. Maybe next time you will do the right thing and advocate for schools to stay open knowing now how awful your emotionally driven, factless opinions got us to where we are. Be the change.

DP. The evidence wasn’t there. The people pushing to open no matter what in summer 2020 were irrational. “Emotionally driven, factless opinions” describe it perfectly.

Tell that to all the schools that opened in Fall 2020. If you didn't want to see the evidence, that's on you. But it was there. But you can't rewrite history to suit yourself.

They opened without evidence.

Yep, so much of the type of hindsight is 20-20 BS on this thread is a waste of time. This virus kept changing and continues to do so. It's what they do. To say they "knew" anything in Fall of 2020 is ridiculous. I actually do think schools should have reopened in person much earlier than they did in this area, but to pretend we had certainties? BS.

“Knew” in this context means “knew” to a reasonable degree of confidence. I would think that anyone who is old enough to be a parent is old enough to have discovered that there are no certainties in life.

You “knew” without substantial data to back it up. Other people were looking for actual data and/or CDC guidelines. Faulting people for being rational is ridiculous.

What are you talking about? Point to the data showing young children dying or getting seriously ill en masse at ANY point during the pandemic. You can’t, because that wasn’t happening, ever.

The ABSENCE of such cases was all the “substantial data” needed to determine that the priority should have been to keep life as normal as possible for the kids, who were not in danger, and to instead focus on keeping the elderly and other vulnerable members of society as isolated as possible for their own protection.

In late summer 2020, we did not have substantial data demonstrating that it was safe. There was IIRC just one study of a small daycare centers.

You responded to my post but you did not address the point. The absence of data showing children becoming seriously ill WAS the data.

You seem to think it’s reasonable to demand a study to prove that continuing to engage in an historically safe behavior will continue to be safe. In actuality, it is reasonable to assume a behavior that has been safe in the past will continue to be safe unless there is new evidence indicating harm. There was no such evidence to justify keeping the schools closed. At no point was Covid killing kids.

That’s not how science works…

Jesus Christ. It’s exactly how one is supposed to apply the scientific method. Generate a hypothesis (covid is gonna kill us all!), make observations (covid is killing old people and people with underlying immune, respiratory, and heart conditions), interpret results (there is a very clear and direct exponential trend of severity of outcomes from covid infection as a function of age), draw conclusions (this virus is dangerous to old people but not to kids), and in this case, suggest/implement policy (keep the schools open).

So I suppose you are correct in that “that’s not how science works” because we have an entire generation of people who don’t understand how to correctly utilize the scientific method making decisions because SCIENCE.

Further. We actually got to see real-world RCTs. Say Florida vs DC schools. And the data was clear by November/ December 2020: schools can safely open.

This is a bit of an aside, but I also remember reading about the prevalence of “outbreaks” in a school system in Arizona which remained open. (This was years ago so I don’t recall the particular district.). But if one actually looked into the details (I’m kidding! We all know no one does!) one would see that in that particular report a school “outbreak” was defined as two or more students in the school testing positive for covid on the same day. Those students did not have to have any in-school exposure to each other (eg a child in k and a child in grade 6 who have no known contact with one another within the school both testing positive for covid would constitute an “outbreak” at the school) AND there were no controls for kids who were related (oh of course! Those kids are siblings and they got covid somewhere else).

Conclusion: there is an outbreak at the school! Shut it down!

Conclusion from people such as the “that’s not how science works” PP (probably): Schools that remained open had covid outbreaks! Keeping schools open was clearly dangerous!

Insanity.

It just takes one person to spread it and most people are too selfish to keep their sick kids home. The issue was hospitals were overwhelmed and not enough ventilators.

This PP is Exhibit A that decisions were made by anxious people without an actual interest in the evidence they claimed to want see.

There was no evidence of Covid spread at schools in the example I gave. Children were not going to hospitals or being put on ventilators (again, we’re talking statistically significant numbers here so don’t bother digging up outliers).

Many people were afraid of covid and they WANTED the schools to remain closed, and they therefore twisted all of the available evidence to justify keeping the schools closed. Or demanded more studies, of course! (Or just completely made up hypothetical scenarios, such as it only takes one sick kid with selfish parents for everyone to die because there aren’t enough ventilators)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[twitter]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ok. To some of us this was obvious from the get-go. Now go apologize to Ron DeSantis.

+ a billion.

Plus, let's demand some accountability. Time for NYT Editorial Board to resign. All of them.

Ha ha. Some of you are really pieces of work.

Worried you will lose your job?

What?

What is your interest in trying to shut down any discussion about where things went wrong? You are awfully defensive and paranoid that we might have to admit mistakes were made. Why is that?

My kids go to Catholic school, so they were back in person school in fall 2020.

Some of you are kind of crazy.

Mine too, but I had to move from a batshit crazy place to get that. Had we stayed put the kids would have been out until late spring 2021. That's messed up. There was no reason for that whatsoever. There were some terrible decisions and we should hold people accountable for that. Why not?

And you think you get to command the NYT editorial board to resign? Move on. It is 2023. The kids who were hurt the most are the ones who have crazy parents.

Why don't you just sit this conversation out if you aren't interested? What harm is it to you if people want to learn where we went wrong and how do to better in the future?

Let it go. Let it go. Some of you have lost your minds. Go for a walk or something.

You are obsessed with shutting this down. What are you so worried about? Go for a walk yourself if this doesn't interest you.

I realize that posting on a message board that the NYT editorial board must resign is crazy. And ineffective. Go run for your school board if you want to make decisions. Instead of posting nonsense here.

It's amusing how much this bothers you. Must be hitting close to home.

Everyone should be concerned with the nutters running around in 2023 trying to blame people for handling the pandemic in a reasonable, rational way. I’m sorry that the pandemic was hard for you but you’re misdirecting your anger.

The important thing now is addressing educational gaps. Focus on that.

(And glad you finally care about some of the many educational challenges that have existed for a long time and were magnified by the pandemic.)

How do you suggest we do that without admitting that there are problems? Why did the closures set kids back? What do you propose we do right now to address the problems in our public schools?

Have you ever been in a school? These problems existed before the pandemic. The pandemic just exacerbated them. Glad you are paying attention now.

Exactly.

Instead of attacking the people who are actively addressing these issues why don’t you find a way to support them.

Unless you have ulterior (political) motives.

So you are a teacher, is that why you're hyper defensive?

I’m a parent who detests irrational a-holes still attacking our schools/teachers YEARS later. It’s almost as if you don’t want to fix anything at all, just complain about it.

At least you admit your bias.

Yes, I’m biased against school-hating a-holes.

You didn't tolerate the complaining back in 2020 either. Not all of us agree that teachers and admins are beyond reproach. It's ok to hold their feet to the fire now. They were wrong.

OMG, I'm a DP and you are just gone. Out there. You don't want solutions. You want blood. Honestly, seek therapy. This anger won't help anyone. Not your kids. Not the school system. This kind of anger will lead to stupid decisions that make the situation worse.

Our kids need help. There are already teacher shortages. We need more, good teachers and parents like you will drive any decent ones out of the system. We need more funding for schools and more services for our kids. Channel your energy into that. Otherwise, you are just a worthless blowhard.

I’m touched you’re so worked up. Maybe next time you will do the right thing and advocate for schools to stay open knowing now how awful your emotionally driven, factless opinions got us to where we are. Be the change.

DP. The evidence wasn’t there. The people pushing to open no matter what in summer 2020 were irrational. “Emotionally driven, factless opinions” describe it perfectly.

Tell that to all the schools that opened in Fall 2020. If you didn't want to see the evidence, that's on you. But it was there. But you can't rewrite history to suit yourself.

They opened without evidence.

Yep, so much of the type of hindsight is 20-20 BS on this thread is a waste of time. This virus kept changing and continues to do so. It's what they do. To say they "knew" anything in Fall of 2020 is ridiculous. I actually do think schools should have reopened in person much earlier than they did in this area, but to pretend we had certainties? BS.

“Knew” in this context means “knew” to a reasonable degree of confidence. I would think that anyone who is old enough to be a parent is old enough to have discovered that there are no certainties in life.

You “knew” without substantial data to back it up. Other people were looking for actual data and/or CDC guidelines. Faulting people for being rational is ridiculous.

What are you talking about? Point to the data showing young children dying or getting seriously ill en masse at ANY point during the pandemic. You can’t, because that wasn’t happening, ever.

The ABSENCE of such cases was all the “substantial data” needed to determine that the priority should have been to keep life as normal as possible for the kids, who were not in danger, and to instead focus on keeping the elderly and other vulnerable members of society as isolated as possible for their own protection.

In late summer 2020, we did not have substantial data demonstrating that it was safe. There was IIRC just one study of a small daycare centers.

You responded to my post but you did not address the point. The absence of data showing children becoming seriously ill WAS the data.

You seem to think it’s reasonable to demand a study to prove that continuing to engage in an historically safe behavior will continue to be safe. In actuality, it is reasonable to assume a behavior that has been safe in the past will continue to be safe unless there is new evidence indicating harm. There was no such evidence to justify keeping the schools closed. At no point was Covid killing kids.

That’s not how science works…

Jesus Christ. It’s exactly how one is supposed to apply the scientific method. Generate a hypothesis (covid is gonna kill us all!), make observations (covid is killing old people and people with underlying immune, respiratory, and heart conditions), interpret results (there is a very clear and direct exponential trend of severity of outcomes from covid infection as a function of age), draw conclusions (this virus is dangerous to old people but not to kids), and in this case, suggest/implement policy (keep the schools open).

So I suppose you are correct in that “that’s not how science works” because we have an entire generation of people who don’t understand how to correctly utilize the scientific method making decisions because SCIENCE.

We did not studies on how it affected kids - particularly those crammed into tight spaces en masse - at that point. No observation. No data.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[twitter]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ok. To some of us this was obvious from the get-go. Now go apologize to Ron DeSantis.

+ a billion.

Plus, let's demand some accountability. Time for NYT Editorial Board to resign. All of them.

Ha ha. Some of you are really pieces of work.

Worried you will lose your job?

What?

What is your interest in trying to shut down any discussion about where things went wrong? You are awfully defensive and paranoid that we might have to admit mistakes were made. Why is that?

My kids go to Catholic school, so they were back in person school in fall 2020.

Some of you are kind of crazy.

Mine too, but I had to move from a batshit crazy place to get that. Had we stayed put the kids would have been out until late spring 2021. That's messed up. There was no reason for that whatsoever. There were some terrible decisions and we should hold people accountable for that. Why not?

And you think you get to command the NYT editorial board to resign? Move on. It is 2023. The kids who were hurt the most are the ones who have crazy parents.

Why don't you just sit this conversation out if you aren't interested? What harm is it to you if people want to learn where we went wrong and how do to better in the future?

Let it go. Let it go. Some of you have lost your minds. Go for a walk or something.

You are obsessed with shutting this down. What are you so worried about? Go for a walk yourself if this doesn't interest you.

I realize that posting on a message board that the NYT editorial board must resign is crazy. And ineffective. Go run for your school board if you want to make decisions. Instead of posting nonsense here.

It's amusing how much this bothers you. Must be hitting close to home.

Everyone should be concerned with the nutters running around in 2023 trying to blame people for handling the pandemic in a reasonable, rational way. I’m sorry that the pandemic was hard for you but you’re misdirecting your anger.

The important thing now is addressing educational gaps. Focus on that.

(And glad you finally care about some of the many educational challenges that have existed for a long time and were magnified by the pandemic.)

How do you suggest we do that without admitting that there are problems? Why did the closures set kids back? What do you propose we do right now to address the problems in our public schools?

Have you ever been in a school? These problems existed before the pandemic. The pandemic just exacerbated them. Glad you are paying attention now.

Exactly.

Instead of attacking the people who are actively addressing these issues why don’t you find a way to support them.

Unless you have ulterior (political) motives.

So you are a teacher, is that why you're hyper defensive?

I’m a parent who detests irrational a-holes still attacking our schools/teachers YEARS later. It’s almost as if you don’t want to fix anything at all, just complain about it.

At least you admit your bias.

Yes, I’m biased against school-hating a-holes.

You didn't tolerate the complaining back in 2020 either. Not all of us agree that teachers and admins are beyond reproach. It's ok to hold their feet to the fire now. They were wrong.

OMG, I'm a DP and you are just gone. Out there. You don't want solutions. You want blood. Honestly, seek therapy. This anger won't help anyone. Not your kids. Not the school system. This kind of anger will lead to stupid decisions that make the situation worse.

Our kids need help. There are already teacher shortages. We need more, good teachers and parents like you will drive any decent ones out of the system. We need more funding for schools and more services for our kids. Channel your energy into that. Otherwise, you are just a worthless blowhard.

I’m touched you’re so worked up. Maybe next time you will do the right thing and advocate for schools to stay open knowing now how awful your emotionally driven, factless opinions got us to where we are. Be the change.

DP. The evidence wasn’t there. The people pushing to open no matter what in summer 2020 were irrational. “Emotionally driven, factless opinions” describe it perfectly.

Tell that to all the schools that opened in Fall 2020. If you didn't want to see the evidence, that's on you. But it was there. But you can't rewrite history to suit yourself.

They opened without evidence.

Yep, so much of the type of hindsight is 20-20 BS on this thread is a waste of time. This virus kept changing and continues to do so. It's what they do. To say they "knew" anything in Fall of 2020 is ridiculous. I actually do think schools should have reopened in person much earlier than they did in this area, but to pretend we had certainties? BS.

“Knew” in this context means “knew” to a reasonable degree of confidence. I would think that anyone who is old enough to be a parent is old enough to have discovered that there are no certainties in life.

You “knew” without substantial data to back it up. Other people were looking for actual data and/or CDC guidelines. Faulting people for being rational is ridiculous.

What are you talking about? Point to the data showing young children dying or getting seriously ill en masse at ANY point during the pandemic. You can’t, because that wasn’t happening, ever.

The ABSENCE of such cases was all the “substantial data” needed to determine that the priority should have been to keep life as normal as possible for the kids, who were not in danger, and to instead focus on keeping the elderly and other vulnerable members of society as isolated as possible for their own protection.

In late summer 2020, we did not have substantial data demonstrating that it was safe. There was IIRC just one study of a small daycare centers.

You responded to my post but you did not address the point. The absence of data showing children becoming seriously ill WAS the data.

You seem to think it’s reasonable to demand a study to prove that continuing to engage in an historically safe behavior will continue to be safe. In actuality, it is reasonable to assume a behavior that has been safe in the past will continue to be safe unless there is new evidence indicating harm. There was no such evidence to justify keeping the schools closed. At no point was Covid killing kids.

That’s not how science works…

Jesus Christ. It’s exactly how one is supposed to apply the scientific method. Generate a hypothesis (covid is gonna kill us all!), make observations (covid is killing old people and people with underlying immune, respiratory, and heart conditions), interpret results (there is a very clear and direct exponential trend of severity of outcomes from covid infection as a function of age), draw conclusions (this virus is dangerous to old people but not to kids), and in this case, suggest/implement policy (keep the schools open).

So I suppose you are correct in that “that’s not how science works” because we have an entire generation of people who don’t understand how to correctly utilize the scientific method making decisions because SCIENCE.

We did not studies on how it affected kids - particularly those crammed into tight spaces en masse - at that point. No observation. No data.

This is tiresome. Do you need a study before you walk out your front door in the morning?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[twitter]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ok. To some of us this was obvious from the get-go. Now go apologize to Ron DeSantis.

+ a billion.

Plus, let's demand some accountability. Time for NYT Editorial Board to resign. All of them.

Ha ha. Some of you are really pieces of work.

Worried you will lose your job?

What?

What is your interest in trying to shut down any discussion about where things went wrong? You are awfully defensive and paranoid that we might have to admit mistakes were made. Why is that?

My kids go to Catholic school, so they were back in person school in fall 2020.

Some of you are kind of crazy.

Mine too, but I had to move from a batshit crazy place to get that. Had we stayed put the kids would have been out until late spring 2021. That's messed up. There was no reason for that whatsoever. There were some terrible decisions and we should hold people accountable for that. Why not?

And you think you get to command the NYT editorial board to resign? Move on. It is 2023. The kids who were hurt the most are the ones who have crazy parents.

Why don't you just sit this conversation out if you aren't interested? What harm is it to you if people want to learn where we went wrong and how do to better in the future?

Let it go. Let it go. Some of you have lost your minds. Go for a walk or something.

You are obsessed with shutting this down. What are you so worried about? Go for a walk yourself if this doesn't interest you.

I realize that posting on a message board that the NYT editorial board must resign is crazy. And ineffective. Go run for your school board if you want to make decisions. Instead of posting nonsense here.

It's amusing how much this bothers you. Must be hitting close to home.

Everyone should be concerned with the nutters running around in 2023 trying to blame people for handling the pandemic in a reasonable, rational way. I’m sorry that the pandemic was hard for you but you’re misdirecting your anger.

The important thing now is addressing educational gaps. Focus on that.

(And glad you finally care about some of the many educational challenges that have existed for a long time and were magnified by the pandemic.)

How do you suggest we do that without admitting that there are problems? Why did the closures set kids back? What do you propose we do right now to address the problems in our public schools?

Have you ever been in a school? These problems existed before the pandemic. The pandemic just exacerbated them. Glad you are paying attention now.

Exactly.

Instead of attacking the people who are actively addressing these issues why don’t you find a way to support them.

Unless you have ulterior (political) motives.

So you are a teacher, is that why you're hyper defensive?

I’m a parent who detests irrational a-holes still attacking our schools/teachers YEARS later. It’s almost as if you don’t want to fix anything at all, just complain about it.

At least you admit your bias.

Yes, I’m biased against school-hating a-holes.

You didn't tolerate the complaining back in 2020 either. Not all of us agree that teachers and admins are beyond reproach. It's ok to hold their feet to the fire now. They were wrong.

OMG, I'm a DP and you are just gone. Out there. You don't want solutions. You want blood. Honestly, seek therapy. This anger won't help anyone. Not your kids. Not the school system. This kind of anger will lead to stupid decisions that make the situation worse.

Our kids need help. There are already teacher shortages. We need more, good teachers and parents like you will drive any decent ones out of the system. We need more funding for schools and more services for our kids. Channel your energy into that. Otherwise, you are just a worthless blowhard.

I’m touched you’re so worked up. Maybe next time you will do the right thing and advocate for schools to stay open knowing now how awful your emotionally driven, factless opinions got us to where we are. Be the change.

DP. The evidence wasn’t there. The people pushing to open no matter what in summer 2020 were irrational. “Emotionally driven, factless opinions” describe it perfectly.

Tell that to all the schools that opened in Fall 2020. If you didn't want to see the evidence, that's on you. But it was there. But you can't rewrite history to suit yourself.

They opened without evidence.

Yep, so much of the type of hindsight is 20-20 BS on this thread is a waste of time. This virus kept changing and continues to do so. It's what they do. To say they "knew" anything in Fall of 2020 is ridiculous. I actually do think schools should have reopened in person much earlier than they did in this area, but to pretend we had certainties? BS.

“Knew” in this context means “knew” to a reasonable degree of confidence. I would think that anyone who is old enough to be a parent is old enough to have discovered that there are no certainties in life.

You “knew” without substantial data to back it up. Other people were looking for actual data and/or CDC guidelines. Faulting people for being rational is ridiculous.

What are you talking about? Point to the data showing young children dying or getting seriously ill en masse at ANY point during the pandemic. You can’t, because that wasn’t happening, ever.

The ABSENCE of such cases was all the “substantial data” needed to determine that the priority should have been to keep life as normal as possible for the kids, who were not in danger, and to instead focus on keeping the elderly and other vulnerable members of society as isolated as possible for their own protection.

In late summer 2020, we did not have substantial data demonstrating that it was safe. There was IIRC just one study of a small daycare centers.

You responded to my post but you did not address the point. The absence of data showing children becoming seriously ill WAS the data.

You seem to think it’s reasonable to demand a study to prove that continuing to engage in an historically safe behavior will continue to be safe. In actuality, it is reasonable to assume a behavior that has been safe in the past will continue to be safe unless there is new evidence indicating harm. There was no such evidence to justify keeping the schools closed. At no point was Covid killing kids.

That’s not how science works…

Jesus Christ. It’s exactly how one is supposed to apply the scientific method. Generate a hypothesis (covid is gonna kill us all!), make observations (covid is killing old people and people with underlying immune, respiratory, and heart conditions), interpret results (there is a very clear and direct exponential trend of severity of outcomes from covid infection as a function of age), draw conclusions (this virus is dangerous to old people but not to kids), and in this case, suggest/implement policy (keep the schools open).

So I suppose you are correct in that “that’s not how science works” because we have an entire generation of people who don’t understand how to correctly utilize the scientific method making decisions because SCIENCE.

We did not studies on how it affected kids - particularly those crammed into tight spaces en masse - at that point. No observation. No data.

None. Sure. Keep telling yourself that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[twitter]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ok. To some of us this was obvious from the get-go. Now go apologize to Ron DeSantis.

+ a billion.

Plus, let's demand some accountability. Time for NYT Editorial Board to resign. All of them.

Ha ha. Some of you are really pieces of work.

Worried you will lose your job?

What?

What is your interest in trying to shut down any discussion about where things went wrong? You are awfully defensive and paranoid that we might have to admit mistakes were made. Why is that?

My kids go to Catholic school, so they were back in person school in fall 2020.

Some of you are kind of crazy.

Mine too, but I had to move from a batshit crazy place to get that. Had we stayed put the kids would have been out until late spring 2021. That's messed up. There was no reason for that whatsoever. There were some terrible decisions and we should hold people accountable for that. Why not?

And you think you get to command the NYT editorial board to resign? Move on. It is 2023. The kids who were hurt the most are the ones who have crazy parents.

Why don't you just sit this conversation out if you aren't interested? What harm is it to you if people want to learn where we went wrong and how do to better in the future?

Let it go. Let it go. Some of you have lost your minds. Go for a walk or something.

You are obsessed with shutting this down. What are you so worried about? Go for a walk yourself if this doesn't interest you.

I realize that posting on a message board that the NYT editorial board must resign is crazy. And ineffective. Go run for your school board if you want to make decisions. Instead of posting nonsense here.

It's amusing how much this bothers you. Must be hitting close to home.

Everyone should be concerned with the nutters running around in 2023 trying to blame people for handling the pandemic in a reasonable, rational way. I’m sorry that the pandemic was hard for you but you’re misdirecting your anger.

The important thing now is addressing educational gaps. Focus on that.

(And glad you finally care about some of the many educational challenges that have existed for a long time and were magnified by the pandemic.)

How do you suggest we do that without admitting that there are problems? Why did the closures set kids back? What do you propose we do right now to address the problems in our public schools?

Have you ever been in a school? These problems existed before the pandemic. The pandemic just exacerbated them. Glad you are paying attention now.

Exactly.

Instead of attacking the people who are actively addressing these issues why don’t you find a way to support them.

Unless you have ulterior (political) motives.

So you are a teacher, is that why you're hyper defensive?

I’m a parent who detests irrational a-holes still attacking our schools/teachers YEARS later. It’s almost as if you don’t want to fix anything at all, just complain about it.

At least you admit your bias.

Yes, I’m biased against school-hating a-holes.

You didn't tolerate the complaining back in 2020 either. Not all of us agree that teachers and admins are beyond reproach. It's ok to hold their feet to the fire now. They were wrong.

OMG, I'm a DP and you are just gone. Out there. You don't want solutions. You want blood. Honestly, seek therapy. This anger won't help anyone. Not your kids. Not the school system. This kind of anger will lead to stupid decisions that make the situation worse.

Our kids need help. There are already teacher shortages. We need more, good teachers and parents like you will drive any decent ones out of the system. We need more funding for schools and more services for our kids. Channel your energy into that. Otherwise, you are just a worthless blowhard.

I’m touched you’re so worked up. Maybe next time you will do the right thing and advocate for schools to stay open knowing now how awful your emotionally driven, factless opinions got us to where we are. Be the change.

You are touched, but not in the way you think. I am concerned for kids, yes, and make no apologies. Shouldn't we all be? Why would you think I didn't advocate for it at the time? I did.

But I am not so far gone in worthless anger that I cannot see that they thing we need RIGHT NOW is to focus on what kids need to move forward. Blame game is a waste of time, because this whole thing has been tainted by political BS and there is no way we will get honest, meaningful introspection from people on this.

So again, blowhard, what do you propose we do to help kids right now?

Again, you can't walk and chew gum at the same time. That's your issue.

Again, the blame game isn't going to be productive, so why waste the energy? Focus the energy on things that will have an impact.

But you just want to rant. Useless blowhard. That's your issue.

You're the one ranting and raving. Blowhard, indeed.

DP. Still waiting to hear your proposal to deal with learning gaps.

Private schools should close down for two years, same as public ones did. That's the best way to close the gap.

So you have no real proposals?

Dump the school boards and start over. Back to the drawing board. The current people in place who created the problems aren't going to be the ones to fix the mess they created.

The mess exists in school districts that were closed for a year and a half and in districts that were largely open after the spring of 2020.

So I guess you don't see any problems that need fixing. We'll just keep doing the same thing and get surprised at at the results?

Of course there are things that need fixing but they need fixing everywhere, not just in districts that were closed longer three years ago than districts that were not.

How can you be so sure about that? It's only anecdotal, but I see a huge difference between my friends' kids in PA and who started back at school in the late fall of 2020 and many of the kids here who had no access to in-person school before the spring of 2021 (and had only limited access after that). I also see a difference between kids who attended private school and those from virtual public schools. It's more than academic; it includes social and emotional issues caused by the loss of real-life experiences and interaction with adults outside of their households that many kids didn't have for more than a year. That's part of the piece I think is missing from these discussions.

Look at Florida. A disaster.

What data are you looking at? Because when I look at national test scores, I see a greater decline in Maryland than in places like Florida. And trust me, I'm no DeSantis fan; I'm just asking for data showing that students in Flordia whose schools were open saw similar declines as Maryland did.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[twitter]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ok. To some of us this was obvious from the get-go. Now go apologize to Ron DeSantis.

+ a billion.

Plus, let's demand some accountability. Time for NYT Editorial Board to resign. All of them.

Ha ha. Some of you are really pieces of work.

Worried you will lose your job?

What?

What is your interest in trying to shut down any discussion about where things went wrong? You are awfully defensive and paranoid that we might have to admit mistakes were made. Why is that?

My kids go to Catholic school, so they were back in person school in fall 2020.

Some of you are kind of crazy.

Mine too, but I had to move from a batshit crazy place to get that. Had we stayed put the kids would have been out until late spring 2021. That's messed up. There was no reason for that whatsoever. There were some terrible decisions and we should hold people accountable for that. Why not?

And you think you get to command the NYT editorial board to resign? Move on. It is 2023. The kids who were hurt the most are the ones who have crazy parents.

Why don't you just sit this conversation out if you aren't interested? What harm is it to you if people want to learn where we went wrong and how do to better in the future?

Let it go. Let it go. Some of you have lost your minds. Go for a walk or something.

You are obsessed with shutting this down. What are you so worried about? Go for a walk yourself if this doesn't interest you.

I realize that posting on a message board that the NYT editorial board must resign is crazy. And ineffective. Go run for your school board if you want to make decisions. Instead of posting nonsense here.

It's amusing how much this bothers you. Must be hitting close to home.

Everyone should be concerned with the nutters running around in 2023 trying to blame people for handling the pandemic in a reasonable, rational way. I’m sorry that the pandemic was hard for you but you’re misdirecting your anger.

The important thing now is addressing educational gaps. Focus on that.

(And glad you finally care about some of the many educational challenges that have existed for a long time and were magnified by the pandemic.)

How do you suggest we do that without admitting that there are problems? Why did the closures set kids back? What do you propose we do right now to address the problems in our public schools?

Have you ever been in a school? These problems existed before the pandemic. The pandemic just exacerbated them. Glad you are paying attention now.

Exactly.

Instead of attacking the people who are actively addressing these issues why don’t you find a way to support them.

Unless you have ulterior (political) motives.

So you are a teacher, is that why you're hyper defensive?

I’m a parent who detests irrational a-holes still attacking our schools/teachers YEARS later. It’s almost as if you don’t want to fix anything at all, just complain about it.

At least you admit your bias.

Yes, I’m biased against school-hating a-holes.

You didn't tolerate the complaining back in 2020 either. Not all of us agree that teachers and admins are beyond reproach. It's ok to hold their feet to the fire now. They were wrong.

OMG, I'm a DP and you are just gone. Out there. You don't want solutions. You want blood. Honestly, seek therapy. This anger won't help anyone. Not your kids. Not the school system. This kind of anger will lead to stupid decisions that make the situation worse.

Our kids need help. There are already teacher shortages. We need more, good teachers and parents like you will drive any decent ones out of the system. We need more funding for schools and more services for our kids. Channel your energy into that. Otherwise, you are just a worthless blowhard.

I’m touched you’re so worked up. Maybe next time you will do the right thing and advocate for schools to stay open knowing now how awful your emotionally driven, factless opinions got us to where we are. Be the change.

DP. The evidence wasn’t there. The people pushing to open no matter what in summer 2020 were irrational. “Emotionally driven, factless opinions” describe it perfectly.

Tell that to all the schools that opened in Fall 2020. If you didn't want to see the evidence, that's on you. But it was there. But you can't rewrite history to suit yourself.

They opened without evidence.

Yep, so much of the type of hindsight is 20-20 BS on this thread is a waste of time. This virus kept changing and continues to do so. It's what they do. To say they "knew" anything in Fall of 2020 is ridiculous. I actually do think schools should have reopened in person much earlier than they did in this area, but to pretend we had certainties? BS.

“Knew” in this context means “knew” to a reasonable degree of confidence. I would think that anyone who is old enough to be a parent is old enough to have discovered that there are no certainties in life.

You “knew” without substantial data to back it up. Other people were looking for actual data and/or CDC guidelines. Faulting people for being rational is ridiculous.

What are you talking about? Point to the data showing young children dying or getting seriously ill en masse at ANY point during the pandemic. You can’t, because that wasn’t happening, ever.

The ABSENCE of such cases was all the “substantial data” needed to determine that the priority should have been to keep life as normal as possible for the kids, who were not in danger, and to instead focus on keeping the elderly and other vulnerable members of society as isolated as possible for their own protection.

In late summer 2020, we did not have substantial data demonstrating that it was safe. There was IIRC just one study of a small daycare centers.

You responded to my post but you did not address the point. The absence of data showing children becoming seriously ill WAS the data.

You seem to think it’s reasonable to demand a study to prove that continuing to engage in an historically safe behavior will continue to be safe. In actuality, it is reasonable to assume a behavior that has been safe in the past will continue to be safe unless there is new evidence indicating harm. There was no such evidence to justify keeping the schools closed. At no point was Covid killing kids.

That’s not how science works…

Jesus Christ. It’s exactly how one is supposed to apply the scientific method. Generate a hypothesis (covid is gonna kill us all!), make observations (covid is killing old people and people with underlying immune, respiratory, and heart conditions), interpret results (there is a very clear and direct exponential trend of severity of outcomes from covid infection as a function of age), draw conclusions (this virus is dangerous to old people but not to kids), and in this case, suggest/implement policy (keep the schools open).

So I suppose you are correct in that “that’s not how science works” because we have an entire generation of people who don’t understand how to correctly utilize the scientific method making decisions because SCIENCE.

Further. We actually got to see real-world RCTs. Say Florida vs DC schools. And the data was clear by November/ December 2020: schools can safely open.

Right. It was NOT clear in August 2020.

It was clear in August 2020 it was worth a try. It was clear by November/ December 2020 that schools should open.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[twitter]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ok. To some of us this was obvious from the get-go. Now go apologize to Ron DeSantis.

+ a billion.

Plus, let's demand some accountability. Time for NYT Editorial Board to resign. All of them.

Ha ha. Some of you are really pieces of work.

Worried you will lose your job?

What?

What is your interest in trying to shut down any discussion about where things went wrong? You are awfully defensive and paranoid that we might have to admit mistakes were made. Why is that?

My kids go to Catholic school, so they were back in person school in fall 2020.

Some of you are kind of crazy.

Mine too, but I had to move from a batshit crazy place to get that. Had we stayed put the kids would have been out until late spring 2021. That's messed up. There was no reason for that whatsoever. There were some terrible decisions and we should hold people accountable for that. Why not?

And you think you get to command the NYT editorial board to resign? Move on. It is 2023. The kids who were hurt the most are the ones who have crazy parents.

Why don't you just sit this conversation out if you aren't interested? What harm is it to you if people want to learn where we went wrong and how do to better in the future?

Let it go. Let it go. Some of you have lost your minds. Go for a walk or something.

You are obsessed with shutting this down. What are you so worried about? Go for a walk yourself if this doesn't interest you.

I realize that posting on a message board that the NYT editorial board must resign is crazy. And ineffective. Go run for your school board if you want to make decisions. Instead of posting nonsense here.

It's amusing how much this bothers you. Must be hitting close to home.

Everyone should be concerned with the nutters running around in 2023 trying to blame people for handling the pandemic in a reasonable, rational way. I’m sorry that the pandemic was hard for you but you’re misdirecting your anger.

The important thing now is addressing educational gaps. Focus on that.

(And glad you finally care about some of the many educational challenges that have existed for a long time and were magnified by the pandemic.)

How do you suggest we do that without admitting that there are problems? Why did the closures set kids back? What do you propose we do right now to address the problems in our public schools?

Have you ever been in a school? These problems existed before the pandemic. The pandemic just exacerbated them. Glad you are paying attention now.

Exactly.

Instead of attacking the people who are actively addressing these issues why don’t you find a way to support them.

Unless you have ulterior (political) motives.

So you are a teacher, is that why you're hyper defensive?

I’m a parent who detests irrational a-holes still attacking our schools/teachers YEARS later. It’s almost as if you don’t want to fix anything at all, just complain about it.

At least you admit your bias.

Yes, I’m biased against school-hating a-holes.

You didn't tolerate the complaining back in 2020 either. Not all of us agree that teachers and admins are beyond reproach. It's ok to hold their feet to the fire now. They were wrong.

OMG, I'm a DP and you are just gone. Out there. You don't want solutions. You want blood. Honestly, seek therapy. This anger won't help anyone. Not your kids. Not the school system. This kind of anger will lead to stupid decisions that make the situation worse.

Our kids need help. There are already teacher shortages. We need more, good teachers and parents like you will drive any decent ones out of the system. We need more funding for schools and more services for our kids. Channel your energy into that. Otherwise, you are just a worthless blowhard.

I’m touched you’re so worked up. Maybe next time you will do the right thing and advocate for schools to stay open knowing now how awful your emotionally driven, factless opinions got us to where we are. Be the change.

You are touched, but not in the way you think. I am concerned for kids, yes, and make no apologies. Shouldn't we all be? Why would you think I didn't advocate for it at the time? I did.

But I am not so far gone in worthless anger that I cannot see that they thing we need RIGHT NOW is to focus on what kids need to move forward. Blame game is a waste of time, because this whole thing has been tainted by political BS and there is no way we will get honest, meaningful introspection from people on this.

So again, blowhard, what do you propose we do to help kids right now?

Again, you can't walk and chew gum at the same time. That's your issue.

Again, the blame game isn't going to be productive, so why waste the energy? Focus the energy on things that will have an impact.

But you just want to rant. Useless blowhard. That's your issue.

You're the one ranting and raving. Blowhard, indeed.

DP. Still waiting to hear your proposal to deal with learning gaps.

Private schools should close down for two years, same as public ones did. That's the best way to close the gap.

So you have no real proposals?

Dump the school boards and start over. Back to the drawing board. The current people in place who created the problems aren't going to be the ones to fix the mess they created.

The mess exists in school districts that were closed for a year and a half and in districts that were largely open after the spring of 2020.

So I guess you don't see any problems that need fixing. We'll just keep doing the same thing and get surprised at at the results?

Of course there are things that need fixing but they need fixing everywhere, not just in districts that were closed longer three years ago than districts that were not.

How can you be so sure about that? It's only anecdotal, but I see a huge difference between my friends' kids in PA and who started back at school in the late fall of 2020 and many of the kids here who had no access to in-person school before the spring of 2021 (and had only limited access after that). I also see a difference between kids who attended private school and those from virtual public schools. It's more than academic; it includes social and emotional issues caused by the loss of real-life experiences and interaction with adults outside of their households that many kids didn't have for more than a year. That's part of the piece I think is missing from these discussions.

Look at Florida. A disaster.

What data are you looking at? Because when I look at national test scores, I see a greater decline in Maryland than in places like Florida. And trust me, I'm no DeSantis fan; I'm just asking for data showing that students in Flordia whose schools were open saw similar declines as Maryland did.

PP above keeps making things up. Time to recognize that FL made the right choice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[twitter]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ok. To some of us this was obvious from the get-go. Now go apologize to Ron DeSantis.

+ a billion.

Plus, let's demand some accountability. Time for NYT Editorial Board to resign. All of them.

Ha ha. Some of you are really pieces of work.

Worried you will lose your job?

What?

What is your interest in trying to shut down any discussion about where things went wrong? You are awfully defensive and paranoid that we might have to admit mistakes were made. Why is that?

My kids go to Catholic school, so they were back in person school in fall 2020.

Some of you are kind of crazy.

Mine too, but I had to move from a batshit crazy place to get that. Had we stayed put the kids would have been out until late spring 2021. That's messed up. There was no reason for that whatsoever. There were some terrible decisions and we should hold people accountable for that. Why not?

And you think you get to command the NYT editorial board to resign? Move on. It is 2023. The kids who were hurt the most are the ones who have crazy parents.

Why don't you just sit this conversation out if you aren't interested? What harm is it to you if people want to learn where we went wrong and how do to better in the future?

Let it go. Let it go. Some of you have lost your minds. Go for a walk or something.

You are obsessed with shutting this down. What are you so worried about? Go for a walk yourself if this doesn't interest you.

I realize that posting on a message board that the NYT editorial board must resign is crazy. And ineffective. Go run for your school board if you want to make decisions. Instead of posting nonsense here.

It's amusing how much this bothers you. Must be hitting close to home.

Everyone should be concerned with the nutters running around in 2023 trying to blame people for handling the pandemic in a reasonable, rational way. I’m sorry that the pandemic was hard for you but you’re misdirecting your anger.

The important thing now is addressing educational gaps. Focus on that.

(And glad you finally care about some of the many educational challenges that have existed for a long time and were magnified by the pandemic.)

How do you suggest we do that without admitting that there are problems? Why did the closures set kids back? What do you propose we do right now to address the problems in our public schools?

Have you ever been in a school? These problems existed before the pandemic. The pandemic just exacerbated them. Glad you are paying attention now.

Exactly.

Instead of attacking the people who are actively addressing these issues why don’t you find a way to support them.

Unless you have ulterior (political) motives.

So you are a teacher, is that why you're hyper defensive?

I’m a parent who detests irrational a-holes still attacking our schools/teachers YEARS later. It’s almost as if you don’t want to fix anything at all, just complain about it.

At least you admit your bias.

Yes, I’m biased against school-hating a-holes.

You didn't tolerate the complaining back in 2020 either. Not all of us agree that teachers and admins are beyond reproach. It's ok to hold their feet to the fire now. They were wrong.

OMG, I'm a DP and you are just gone. Out there. You don't want solutions. You want blood. Honestly, seek therapy. This anger won't help anyone. Not your kids. Not the school system. This kind of anger will lead to stupid decisions that make the situation worse.

Our kids need help. There are already teacher shortages. We need more, good teachers and parents like you will drive any decent ones out of the system. We need more funding for schools and more services for our kids. Channel your energy into that. Otherwise, you are just a worthless blowhard.

I’m touched you’re so worked up. Maybe next time you will do the right thing and advocate for schools to stay open knowing now how awful your emotionally driven, factless opinions got us to where we are. Be the change.

DP. The evidence wasn’t there. The people pushing to open no matter what in summer 2020 were irrational. “Emotionally driven, factless opinions” describe it perfectly.

Tell that to all the schools that opened in Fall 2020. If you didn't want to see the evidence, that's on you. But it was there. But you can't rewrite history to suit yourself.

They opened without evidence.

Yep, so much of the type of hindsight is 20-20 BS on this thread is a waste of time. This virus kept changing and continues to do so. It's what they do. To say they "knew" anything in Fall of 2020 is ridiculous. I actually do think schools should have reopened in person much earlier than they did in this area, but to pretend we had certainties? BS.

“Knew” in this context means “knew” to a reasonable degree of confidence. I would think that anyone who is old enough to be a parent is old enough to have discovered that there are no certainties in life.

You “knew” without substantial data to back it up. Other people were looking for actual data and/or CDC guidelines. Faulting people for being rational is ridiculous.

What are you talking about? Point to the data showing young children dying or getting seriously ill en masse at ANY point during the pandemic. You can’t, because that wasn’t happening, ever.

The ABSENCE of such cases was all the “substantial data” needed to determine that the priority should have been to keep life as normal as possible for the kids, who were not in danger, and to instead focus on keeping the elderly and other vulnerable members of society as isolated as possible for their own protection.

In late summer 2020, we did not have substantial data demonstrating that it was safe. There was IIRC just one study of a small daycare centers.

You responded to my post but you did not address the point. The absence of data showing children becoming seriously ill WAS the data.

You seem to think it’s reasonable to demand a study to prove that continuing to engage in an historically safe behavior will continue to be safe. In actuality, it is reasonable to assume a behavior that has been safe in the past will continue to be safe unless there is new evidence indicating harm. There was no such evidence to justify keeping the schools closed. At no point was Covid killing kids.

That’s not how science works…

Jesus Christ. It’s exactly how one is supposed to apply the scientific method. Generate a hypothesis (covid is gonna kill us all!), make observations (covid is killing old people and people with underlying immune, respiratory, and heart conditions), interpret results (there is a very clear and direct exponential trend of severity of outcomes from covid infection as a function of age), draw conclusions (this virus is dangerous to old people but not to kids), and in this case, suggest/implement policy (keep the schools open).

So I suppose you are correct in that “that’s not how science works” because we have an entire generation of people who don’t understand how to correctly utilize the scientific method making decisions because SCIENCE.

Further. We actually got to see real-world RCTs. Say Florida vs DC schools. And the data was clear by November/ December 2020: schools can safely open.

Right. It was NOT clear in August 2020.

To the AAP it was. They were advocating for it in August 2020. Were they just making it all up?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[twitter]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ok. To some of us this was obvious from the get-go. Now go apologize to Ron DeSantis.

+ a billion.

Plus, let's demand some accountability. Time for NYT Editorial Board to resign. All of them.

Ha ha. Some of you are really pieces of work.

Worried you will lose your job?

What?

What is your interest in trying to shut down any discussion about where things went wrong? You are awfully defensive and paranoid that we might have to admit mistakes were made. Why is that?

My kids go to Catholic school, so they were back in person school in fall 2020.

Some of you are kind of crazy.

Mine too, but I had to move from a batshit crazy place to get that. Had we stayed put the kids would have been out until late spring 2021. That's messed up. There was no reason for that whatsoever. There were some terrible decisions and we should hold people accountable for that. Why not?

And you think you get to command the NYT editorial board to resign? Move on. It is 2023. The kids who were hurt the most are the ones who have crazy parents.

Why don't you just sit this conversation out if you aren't interested? What harm is it to you if people want to learn where we went wrong and how do to better in the future?

Let it go. Let it go. Some of you have lost your minds. Go for a walk or something.

You are obsessed with shutting this down. What are you so worried about? Go for a walk yourself if this doesn't interest you.

I realize that posting on a message board that the NYT editorial board must resign is crazy. And ineffective. Go run for your school board if you want to make decisions. Instead of posting nonsense here.

It's amusing how much this bothers you. Must be hitting close to home.

Everyone should be concerned with the nutters running around in 2023 trying to blame people for handling the pandemic in a reasonable, rational way. I’m sorry that the pandemic was hard for you but you’re misdirecting your anger.

The important thing now is addressing educational gaps. Focus on that.

(And glad you finally care about some of the many educational challenges that have existed for a long time and were magnified by the pandemic.)

How do you suggest we do that without admitting that there are problems? Why did the closures set kids back? What do you propose we do right now to address the problems in our public schools?

Have you ever been in a school? These problems existed before the pandemic. The pandemic just exacerbated them. Glad you are paying attention now.

Exactly.

Instead of attacking the people who are actively addressing these issues why don’t you find a way to support them.

Unless you have ulterior (political) motives.

So you are a teacher, is that why you're hyper defensive?

I’m a parent who detests irrational a-holes still attacking our schools/teachers YEARS later. It’s almost as if you don’t want to fix anything at all, just complain about it.

At least you admit your bias.

Yes, I’m biased against school-hating a-holes.

You didn't tolerate the complaining back in 2020 either. Not all of us agree that teachers and admins are beyond reproach. It's ok to hold their feet to the fire now. They were wrong.

OMG, I'm a DP and you are just gone. Out there. You don't want solutions. You want blood. Honestly, seek therapy. This anger won't help anyone. Not your kids. Not the school system. This kind of anger will lead to stupid decisions that make the situation worse.

Our kids need help. There are already teacher shortages. We need more, good teachers and parents like you will drive any decent ones out of the system. We need more funding for schools and more services for our kids. Channel your energy into that. Otherwise, you are just a worthless blowhard.

I’m touched you’re so worked up. Maybe next time you will do the right thing and advocate for schools to stay open knowing now how awful your emotionally driven, factless opinions got us to where we are. Be the change.

You are touched, but not in the way you think. I am concerned for kids, yes, and make no apologies. Shouldn't we all be? Why would you think I didn't advocate for it at the time? I did.

But I am not so far gone in worthless anger that I cannot see that they thing we need RIGHT NOW is to focus on what kids need to move forward. Blame game is a waste of time, because this whole thing has been tainted by political BS and there is no way we will get honest, meaningful introspection from people on this.

So again, blowhard, what do you propose we do to help kids right now?

Again, you can't walk and chew gum at the same time. That's your issue.

Again, the blame game isn't going to be productive, so why waste the energy? Focus the energy on things that will have an impact.

But you just want to rant. Useless blowhard. That's your issue.

You're the one ranting and raving. Blowhard, indeed.

DP. Still waiting to hear your proposal to deal with learning gaps.

Private schools should close down for two years, same as public ones did. That's the best way to close the gap.

So you have no real proposals?

Dump the school boards and start over. Back to the drawing board. The current people in place who created the problems aren't going to be the ones to fix the mess they created.

The mess exists in school districts that were closed for a year and a half and in districts that were largely open after the spring of 2020.

So I guess you don't see any problems that need fixing. We'll just keep doing the same thing and get surprised at at the results?

Of course there are things that need fixing but they need fixing everywhere, not just in districts that were closed longer three years ago than districts that were not.

How can you be so sure about that? It's only anecdotal, but I see a huge difference between my friends' kids in PA and who started back at school in the late fall of 2020 and many of the kids here who had no access to in-person school before the spring of 2021 (and had only limited access after that). I also see a difference between kids who attended private school and those from virtual public schools. It's more than academic; it includes social and emotional issues caused by the loss of real-life experiences and interaction with adults outside of their households that many kids didn't have for more than a year. That's part of the piece I think is missing from these discussions.

There’s actual data on this earlier in the thread showing that Florida dropped more than California did. And yes, as more than one PP has said, look at Florida - their ACT scores have plummeted according to data on the first page.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[twitter]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ok. To some of us this was obvious from the get-go. Now go apologize to Ron DeSantis.

+ a billion.

Plus, let's demand some accountability. Time for NYT Editorial Board to resign. All of them.

Ha ha. Some of you are really pieces of work.

Worried you will lose your job?

What?

What is your interest in trying to shut down any discussion about where things went wrong? You are awfully defensive and paranoid that we might have to admit mistakes were made. Why is that?

My kids go to Catholic school, so they were back in person school in fall 2020.

Some of you are kind of crazy.

Mine too, but I had to move from a batshit crazy place to get that. Had we stayed put the kids would have been out until late spring 2021. That's messed up. There was no reason for that whatsoever. There were some terrible decisions and we should hold people accountable for that. Why not?

And you think you get to command the NYT editorial board to resign? Move on. It is 2023. The kids who were hurt the most are the ones who have crazy parents.

Why don't you just sit this conversation out if you aren't interested? What harm is it to you if people want to learn where we went wrong and how do to better in the future?

Let it go. Let it go. Some of you have lost your minds. Go for a walk or something.

You are obsessed with shutting this down. What are you so worried about? Go for a walk yourself if this doesn't interest you.

I realize that posting on a message board that the NYT editorial board must resign is crazy. And ineffective. Go run for your school board if you want to make decisions. Instead of posting nonsense here.

It's amusing how much this bothers you. Must be hitting close to home.

Everyone should be concerned with the nutters running around in 2023 trying to blame people for handling the pandemic in a reasonable, rational way. I’m sorry that the pandemic was hard for you but you’re misdirecting your anger.

The important thing now is addressing educational gaps. Focus on that.

(And glad you finally care about some of the many educational challenges that have existed for a long time and were magnified by the pandemic.)

How do you suggest we do that without admitting that there are problems? Why did the closures set kids back? What do you propose we do right now to address the problems in our public schools?

Have you ever been in a school? These problems existed before the pandemic. The pandemic just exacerbated them. Glad you are paying attention now.

Exactly.

Instead of attacking the people who are actively addressing these issues why don’t you find a way to support them.

Unless you have ulterior (political) motives.

So you are a teacher, is that why you're hyper defensive?

I’m a parent who detests irrational a-holes still attacking our schools/teachers YEARS later. It’s almost as if you don’t want to fix anything at all, just complain about it.

At least you admit your bias.

Yes, I’m biased against school-hating a-holes.

You didn't tolerate the complaining back in 2020 either. Not all of us agree that teachers and admins are beyond reproach. It's ok to hold their feet to the fire now. They were wrong.

OMG, I'm a DP and you are just gone. Out there. You don't want solutions. You want blood. Honestly, seek therapy. This anger won't help anyone. Not your kids. Not the school system. This kind of anger will lead to stupid decisions that make the situation worse.

Our kids need help. There are already teacher shortages. We need more, good teachers and parents like you will drive any decent ones out of the system. We need more funding for schools and more services for our kids. Channel your energy into that. Otherwise, you are just a worthless blowhard.

I’m touched you’re so worked up. Maybe next time you will do the right thing and advocate for schools to stay open knowing now how awful your emotionally driven, factless opinions got us to where we are. Be the change.

You are touched, but not in the way you think. I am concerned for kids, yes, and make no apologies. Shouldn't we all be? Why would you think I didn't advocate for it at the time? I did.

But I am not so far gone in worthless anger that I cannot see that they thing we need RIGHT NOW is to focus on what kids need to move forward. Blame game is a waste of time, because this whole thing has been tainted by political BS and there is no way we will get honest, meaningful introspection from people on this.

So again, blowhard, what do you propose we do to help kids right now?

Again, you can't walk and chew gum at the same time. That's your issue.

Again, the blame game isn't going to be productive, so why waste the energy? Focus the energy on things that will have an impact.

But you just want to rant. Useless blowhard. That's your issue.

You're the one ranting and raving. Blowhard, indeed.

DP. Still waiting to hear your proposal to deal with learning gaps.

Private schools should close down for two years, same as public ones did. That's the best way to close the gap.

So you have no real proposals?

Dump the school boards and start over. Back to the drawing board. The current people in place who created the problems aren't going to be the ones to fix the mess they created.

The mess exists in school districts that were closed for a year and a half and in districts that were largely open after the spring of 2020.

So I guess you don't see any problems that need fixing. We'll just keep doing the same thing and get surprised at at the results?

Of course there are things that need fixing but they need fixing everywhere, not just in districts that were closed longer three years ago than districts that were not.

How can you be so sure about that? It's only anecdotal, but I see a huge difference between my friends' kids in PA and who started back at school in the late fall of 2020 and many of the kids here who had no access to in-person school before the spring of 2021 (and had only limited access after that). I also see a difference between kids who attended private school and those from virtual public schools. It's more than academic; it includes social and emotional issues caused by the loss of real-life experiences and interaction with adults outside of their households that many kids didn't have for more than a year. That's part of the piece I think is missing from these discussions.

There’s actual data on this earlier in the thread showing that Florida dropped more than California did. And yes, as more than one PP has said, look at Florida - their ACT scores have plummeted according to data on the first page.

Very selective use of data with a clear partisan agenda. As a whole FL kids have done better than CA, MD.... same as adults btw.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[twitter]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ok. To some of us this was obvious from the get-go. Now go apologize to Ron DeSantis.

+ a billion.

Plus, let's demand some accountability. Time for NYT Editorial Board to resign. All of them.

Ha ha. Some of you are really pieces of work.

Worried you will lose your job?

What?

What is your interest in trying to shut down any discussion about where things went wrong? You are awfully defensive and paranoid that we might have to admit mistakes were made. Why is that?

My kids go to Catholic school, so they were back in person school in fall 2020.

Some of you are kind of crazy.

Mine too, but I had to move from a batshit crazy place to get that. Had we stayed put the kids would have been out until late spring 2021. That's messed up. There was no reason for that whatsoever. There were some terrible decisions and we should hold people accountable for that. Why not?

And you think you get to command the NYT editorial board to resign? Move on. It is 2023. The kids who were hurt the most are the ones who have crazy parents.

Why don't you just sit this conversation out if you aren't interested? What harm is it to you if people want to learn where we went wrong and how do to better in the future?

Let it go. Let it go. Some of you have lost your minds. Go for a walk or something.

You are obsessed with shutting this down. What are you so worried about? Go for a walk yourself if this doesn't interest you.

I realize that posting on a message board that the NYT editorial board must resign is crazy. And ineffective. Go run for your school board if you want to make decisions. Instead of posting nonsense here.

It's amusing how much this bothers you. Must be hitting close to home.

Everyone should be concerned with the nutters running around in 2023 trying to blame people for handling the pandemic in a reasonable, rational way. I’m sorry that the pandemic was hard for you but you’re misdirecting your anger.

The important thing now is addressing educational gaps. Focus on that.

(And glad you finally care about some of the many educational challenges that have existed for a long time and were magnified by the pandemic.)

How do you suggest we do that without admitting that there are problems? Why did the closures set kids back? What do you propose we do right now to address the problems in our public schools?

Have you ever been in a school? These problems existed before the pandemic. The pandemic just exacerbated them. Glad you are paying attention now.

Exactly.

Instead of attacking the people who are actively addressing these issues why don’t you find a way to support them.

Unless you have ulterior (political) motives.

So you are a teacher, is that why you're hyper defensive?

I’m a parent who detests irrational a-holes still attacking our schools/teachers YEARS later. It’s almost as if you don’t want to fix anything at all, just complain about it.

At least you admit your bias.

Yes, I’m biased against school-hating a-holes.

You didn't tolerate the complaining back in 2020 either. Not all of us agree that teachers and admins are beyond reproach. It's ok to hold their feet to the fire now. They were wrong.

OMG, I'm a DP and you are just gone. Out there. You don't want solutions. You want blood. Honestly, seek therapy. This anger won't help anyone. Not your kids. Not the school system. This kind of anger will lead to stupid decisions that make the situation worse.

Our kids need help. There are already teacher shortages. We need more, good teachers and parents like you will drive any decent ones out of the system. We need more funding for schools and more services for our kids. Channel your energy into that. Otherwise, you are just a worthless blowhard.

I’m touched you’re so worked up. Maybe next time you will do the right thing and advocate for schools to stay open knowing now how awful your emotionally driven, factless opinions got us to where we are. Be the change.

DP. The evidence wasn’t there. The people pushing to open no matter what in summer 2020 were irrational. “Emotionally driven, factless opinions” describe it perfectly.

Tell that to all the schools that opened in Fall 2020. If you didn't want to see the evidence, that's on you. But it was there. But you can't rewrite history to suit yourself.

They opened without evidence.

Yep, so much of the type of hindsight is 20-20 BS on this thread is a waste of time. This virus kept changing and continues to do so. It's what they do. To say they "knew" anything in Fall of 2020 is ridiculous. I actually do think schools should have reopened in person much earlier than they did in this area, but to pretend we had certainties? BS.

“Knew” in this context means “knew” to a reasonable degree of confidence. I would think that anyone who is old enough to be a parent is old enough to have discovered that there are no certainties in life.

You “knew” without substantial data to back it up. Other people were looking for actual data and/or CDC guidelines. Faulting people for being rational is ridiculous.

What are you talking about? Point to the data showing young children dying or getting seriously ill en masse at ANY point during the pandemic. You can’t, because that wasn’t happening, ever.

The ABSENCE of such cases was all the “substantial data” needed to determine that the priority should have been to keep life as normal as possible for the kids, who were not in danger, and to instead focus on keeping the elderly and other vulnerable members of society as isolated as possible for their own protection.

In late summer 2020, we did not have substantial data demonstrating that it was safe. There was IIRC just one study of a small daycare centers.

You responded to my post but you did not address the point. The absence of data showing children becoming seriously ill WAS the data.

You seem to think it’s reasonable to demand a study to prove that continuing to engage in an historically safe behavior will continue to be safe. In actuality, it is reasonable to assume a behavior that has been safe in the past will continue to be safe unless there is new evidence indicating harm. There was no such evidence to justify keeping the schools closed. At no point was Covid killing kids.

That’s not how science works…

Jesus Christ. It’s exactly how one is supposed to apply the scientific method. Generate a hypothesis (covid is gonna kill us all!), make observations (covid is killing old people and people with underlying immune, respiratory, and heart conditions), interpret results (there is a very clear and direct exponential trend of severity of outcomes from covid infection as a function of age), draw conclusions (this virus is dangerous to old people but not to kids), and in this case, suggest/implement policy (keep the schools open).

So I suppose you are correct in that “that’s not how science works” because we have an entire generation of people who don’t understand how to correctly utilize the scientific method making decisions because SCIENCE.

Further. We actually got to see real-world RCTs. Say Florida vs DC schools. And the data was clear by November/ December 2020: schools can safely open.

Right. It was NOT clear in August 2020.

To the AAP it was. They were advocating for it in August 2020. Were they just making it all up?

+1

Experts in the impacts of chronic stress on kids (e.g., the AAP) had an informed opinion about what the trade-offs were. But, you know, "kids are resilient."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[twitter]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ok. To some of us this was obvious from the get-go. Now go apologize to Ron DeSantis.

+ a billion.

Plus, let's demand some accountability. Time for NYT Editorial Board to resign. All of them.

Ha ha. Some of you are really pieces of work.

Worried you will lose your job?

What?

What is your interest in trying to shut down any discussion about where things went wrong? You are awfully defensive and paranoid that we might have to admit mistakes were made. Why is that?

My kids go to Catholic school, so they were back in person school in fall 2020.

Some of you are kind of crazy.

Mine too, but I had to move from a batshit crazy place to get that. Had we stayed put the kids would have been out until late spring 2021. That's messed up. There was no reason for that whatsoever. There were some terrible decisions and we should hold people accountable for that. Why not?

And you think you get to command the NYT editorial board to resign? Move on. It is 2023. The kids who were hurt the most are the ones who have crazy parents.

Why don't you just sit this conversation out if you aren't interested? What harm is it to you if people want to learn where we went wrong and how do to better in the future?

Let it go. Let it go. Some of you have lost your minds. Go for a walk or something.

You are obsessed with shutting this down. What are you so worried about? Go for a walk yourself if this doesn't interest you.

I realize that posting on a message board that the NYT editorial board must resign is crazy. And ineffective. Go run for your school board if you want to make decisions. Instead of posting nonsense here.

It's amusing how much this bothers you. Must be hitting close to home.

Everyone should be concerned with the nutters running around in 2023 trying to blame people for handling the pandemic in a reasonable, rational way. I’m sorry that the pandemic was hard for you but you’re misdirecting your anger.

The important thing now is addressing educational gaps. Focus on that.

(And glad you finally care about some of the many educational challenges that have existed for a long time and were magnified by the pandemic.)

How do you suggest we do that without admitting that there are problems? Why did the closures set kids back? What do you propose we do right now to address the problems in our public schools?

Have you ever been in a school? These problems existed before the pandemic. The pandemic just exacerbated them. Glad you are paying attention now.

Exactly.

Instead of attacking the people who are actively addressing these issues why don’t you find a way to support them.

Unless you have ulterior (political) motives.

So you are a teacher, is that why you're hyper defensive?

I’m a parent who detests irrational a-holes still attacking our schools/teachers YEARS later. It’s almost as if you don’t want to fix anything at all, just complain about it.

At least you admit your bias.

Yes, I’m biased against school-hating a-holes.

You didn't tolerate the complaining back in 2020 either. Not all of us agree that teachers and admins are beyond reproach. It's ok to hold their feet to the fire now. They were wrong.

OMG, I'm a DP and you are just gone. Out there. You don't want solutions. You want blood. Honestly, seek therapy. This anger won't help anyone. Not your kids. Not the school system. This kind of anger will lead to stupid decisions that make the situation worse.

Our kids need help. There are already teacher shortages. We need more, good teachers and parents like you will drive any decent ones out of the system. We need more funding for schools and more services for our kids. Channel your energy into that. Otherwise, you are just a worthless blowhard.

I’m touched you’re so worked up. Maybe next time you will do the right thing and advocate for schools to stay open knowing now how awful your emotionally driven, factless opinions got us to where we are. Be the change.

You are touched, but not in the way you think. I am concerned for kids, yes, and make no apologies. Shouldn't we all be? Why would you think I didn't advocate for it at the time? I did.

But I am not so far gone in worthless anger that I cannot see that they thing we need RIGHT NOW is to focus on what kids need to move forward. Blame game is a waste of time, because this whole thing has been tainted by political BS and there is no way we will get honest, meaningful introspection from people on this.

So again, blowhard, what do you propose we do to help kids right now?

Again, you can't walk and chew gum at the same time. That's your issue.

Again, the blame game isn't going to be productive, so why waste the energy? Focus the energy on things that will have an impact.

But you just want to rant. Useless blowhard. That's your issue.

You're the one ranting and raving. Blowhard, indeed.

DP. Still waiting to hear your proposal to deal with learning gaps.

Private schools should close down for two years, same as public ones did. That's the best way to close the gap.

So you have no real proposals?

Dump the school boards and start over. Back to the drawing board. The current people in place who created the problems aren't going to be the ones to fix the mess they created.

The mess exists in school districts that were closed for a year and a half and in districts that were largely open after the spring of 2020.

So I guess you don't see any problems that need fixing. We'll just keep doing the same thing and get surprised at at the results?

Of course there are things that need fixing but they need fixing everywhere, not just in districts that were closed longer three years ago than districts that were not.

How can you be so sure about that? It's only anecdotal, but I see a huge difference between my friends' kids in PA and who started back at school in the late fall of 2020 and many of the kids here who had no access to in-person school before the spring of 2021 (and had only limited access after that). I also see a difference between kids who attended private school and those from virtual public schools. It's more than academic; it includes social and emotional issues caused by the loss of real-life experiences and interaction with adults outside of their households that many kids didn't have for more than a year. That's part of the piece I think is missing from these discussions.

There’s actual data on this earlier in the thread showing that Florida dropped more than California did. And yes, as more than one PP has said, look at Florida - their ACT scores have plummeted according to data on the first page.

Very selective use of data with a clear partisan agenda. As a whole FL kids have done better than CA, MD.... same as adults btw.

Despite the partisan rag link, this data is not partisan.
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/education/see-it-math-reading-scores-fell-every-state-pandemic

“The data from the ‘nation's report card’ showed that California, which kept schools closed for months longer than other states, didn't fare much differently than Florida, which mandated all schools be open for the entire 2020-2021 school year.

Eighth grade math scores in Florida declined by 7 points, while scores in California declined by 6 points. Similarly, Illinois, which kept schools closed, saw a 7-point decline, which was no different than Texas, where most schools were opened fairly early on.”

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Anonymous wrote:Ok. To some of us this was obvious from the get-go. Now go apologize to Ron DeSantis.

+ a billion.

Plus, let's demand some accountability. Time for NYT Editorial Board to resign. All of them.

Ha ha. Some of you are really pieces of work.

Worried you will lose your job?

What?

What is your interest in trying to shut down any discussion about where things went wrong? You are awfully defensive and paranoid that we might have to admit mistakes were made. Why is that?

My kids go to Catholic school, so they were back in person school in fall 2020.

Some of you are kind of crazy.

Mine too, but I had to move from a batshit crazy place to get that. Had we stayed put the kids would have been out until late spring 2021. That's messed up. There was no reason for that whatsoever. There were some terrible decisions and we should hold people accountable for that. Why not?

And you think you get to command the NYT editorial board to resign? Move on. It is 2023. The kids who were hurt the most are the ones who have crazy parents.

Why don't you just sit this conversation out if you aren't interested? What harm is it to you if people want to learn where we went wrong and how do to better in the future?

Let it go. Let it go. Some of you have lost your minds. Go for a walk or something.

You are obsessed with shutting this down. What are you so worried about? Go for a walk yourself if this doesn't interest you.

I realize that posting on a message board that the NYT editorial board must resign is crazy. And ineffective. Go run for your school board if you want to make decisions. Instead of posting nonsense here.

It's amusing how much this bothers you. Must be hitting close to home.

Everyone should be concerned with the nutters running around in 2023 trying to blame people for handling the pandemic in a reasonable, rational way. I’m sorry that the pandemic was hard for you but you’re misdirecting your anger.

The important thing now is addressing educational gaps. Focus on that.

(And glad you finally care about some of the many educational challenges that have existed for a long time and were magnified by the pandemic.)

How do you suggest we do that without admitting that there are problems? Why did the closures set kids back? What do you propose we do right now to address the problems in our public schools?

Have you ever been in a school? These problems existed before the pandemic. The pandemic just exacerbated them. Glad you are paying attention now.

Exactly.

Instead of attacking the people who are actively addressing these issues why don’t you find a way to support them.

Unless you have ulterior (political) motives.

So you are a teacher, is that why you're hyper defensive?

I’m a parent who detests irrational a-holes still attacking our schools/teachers YEARS later. It’s almost as if you don’t want to fix anything at all, just complain about it.

At least you admit your bias.

Yes, I’m biased against school-hating a-holes.

You didn't tolerate the complaining back in 2020 either. Not all of us agree that teachers and admins are beyond reproach. It's ok to hold their feet to the fire now. They were wrong.

OMG, I'm a DP and you are just gone. Out there. You don't want solutions. You want blood. Honestly, seek therapy. This anger won't help anyone. Not your kids. Not the school system. This kind of anger will lead to stupid decisions that make the situation worse.

Our kids need help. There are already teacher shortages. We need more, good teachers and parents like you will drive any decent ones out of the system. We need more funding for schools and more services for our kids. Channel your energy into that. Otherwise, you are just a worthless blowhard.

I’m touched you’re so worked up. Maybe next time you will do the right thing and advocate for schools to stay open knowing now how awful your emotionally driven, factless opinions got us to where we are. Be the change.

You are touched, but not in the way you think. I am concerned for kids, yes, and make no apologies. Shouldn't we all be? Why would you think I didn't advocate for it at the time? I did.

But I am not so far gone in worthless anger that I cannot see that they thing we need RIGHT NOW is to focus on what kids need to move forward. Blame game is a waste of time, because this whole thing has been tainted by political BS and there is no way we will get honest, meaningful introspection from people on this.

So again, blowhard, what do you propose we do to help kids right now?

Again, you can't walk and chew gum at the same time. That's your issue.

Again, the blame game isn't going to be productive, so why waste the energy? Focus the energy on things that will have an impact.

But you just want to rant. Useless blowhard. That's your issue.

You're the one ranting and raving. Blowhard, indeed.

DP. Still waiting to hear your proposal to deal with learning gaps.

Private schools should close down for two years, same as public ones did. That's the best way to close the gap.

So you have no real proposals?

Dump the school boards and start over. Back to the drawing board. The current people in place who created the problems aren't going to be the ones to fix the mess they created.

The mess exists in school districts that were closed for a year and a half and in districts that were largely open after the spring of 2020.

So I guess you don't see any problems that need fixing. We'll just keep doing the same thing and get surprised at at the results?

Of course there are things that need fixing but they need fixing everywhere, not just in districts that were closed longer three years ago than districts that were not.

How can you be so sure about that? It's only anecdotal, but I see a huge difference between my friends' kids in PA and who started back at school in the late fall of 2020 and many of the kids here who had no access to in-person school before the spring of 2021 (and had only limited access after that). I also see a difference between kids who attended private school and those from virtual public schools. It's more than academic; it includes social and emotional issues caused by the loss of real-life experiences and interaction with adults outside of their households that many kids didn't have for more than a year. That's part of the piece I think is missing from these discussions.

There’s actual data on this earlier in the thread showing that Florida dropped more than California did. And yes, as more than one PP has said, look at Florida - their ACT scores have plummeted according to data on the first page.

Very selective use of data with a clear partisan agenda. As a whole FL kids have done better than CA, MD.... same as adults btw.

I was the earlier PP who asked about Flordia data. I was looking at this data, and I don't see support for the "disaster" as claimed. I am not claiming that Florida did everything right because I don't think they did. But I stand firm on my position that closures were harmful to students on many levels, even if they were neceesary.

https://www.nationsreportcard.gov/profiles/stateprofile?chort=1&sub=RED&sj=AL&sfj=NP&st=MN&year=2022R3