Virginia parents do not have many good in-state options

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here again.

Not sure why so many people were triggered but let me try to clarify:

(1) I didn’t say Virginia doesn’t have many options. I said it doesn’t have many *good* options. How to define a “good” school is subjective. I personally think UVa, W&M, UMCP, and VT are good or great. JMU, GMU, and UMBC are just OK.

(2) An option is not really an option if you cannot choose it. UVa and W&M are extremely selective. VT, a land grant school, became very selective for popular majors.

And VT prefers the OOS kids, which makes things worse. Look at the acceptance rate:

VT in-state: 50%
VT OOS: 63%

This is same for JMU. Very easy admission for OOS kids.

JMU in-state: 71%
JMU OOS: 87%

So I think it’s very possible that many good students who would get in a big state school such as Michigan State or Pitt/PSU didn’t get in VT only because they live in Northern Virginia. (Also kids who would get in a second tier public school such as Temple may not get in JMU)

I am sure some people already knew that the college options in Virginia are not that great any more. Let’s just accept the reality.

Maybe the OOS acceptance rate is higher for VT and JMU because the OOS kids who *are* applying have higher stats on average than the in-state kids. Is that a possibllity?

It's a possibility. But more likely is that if they want X out of state students to enroll, they know the yield will be much lower, so they have to admit more to achieve that. I'm no longer in VA, and I can tell you JMU and even VT are not on kid's lists for OOS schools. They are not a UMich or UWisconsin. So I suspect they may be safety/give it a whirl school choices for some in case they dont' get into something better.

Tell that to all the OOS parents on the FB pages of both those schools.
DP

I'm sure most of the OOS students at JMU and VaTech are all very excited to be there. They picked a school that's a great fit for THEIR kid.


However, I'm not in DCUM area anymore, and nobody applies to either of those, whereas I personally know 4 OOS attending UWisconsin and 2 attending UMich, from my kid's friends group and family. And there were several more who got in but chose elsewhere at the HS. Those two are extremely popular for Top State Flagships for OOS students.

Well.. UMich is close to T20 territory and is T20 for pretty much all academic departments. Wisconsin, while a tier below, is a robust, full-fledged state school and has been in that neighborhood for a while. Tech is just climbing into the T50 zone, that too thanks to some USNews woke math. JMU is a T100 at best. Can't compare.

From an experience perspective, can't beat the first two. From a salary outcomes perspective, the last 3 should be comparable.

Do people really choose where to go to college based on salary outcomes?

They think they do and it's ridiculous. So if the "outcome" are teachers and social workers and therapists and police officers, then they failed? If this is the case our society is doomed.

There are plenty of schools that are clearly designed to produce teachers, social workers, nurses, and police officers. Maybe they're below your radar screen. Those schools do emphasize the fact that you'll be employed after you graduate. It's not going to be a tech / financebro salary, but it is commensurate with your investment in the school - thus your education has a good ROI.

On the other hand, if you're paying for an $80k private school so that your kid can become a teacher or social worker, then yes you have failed, you are stupid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here again.

Not sure why so many people were triggered but let me try to clarify:

(1) I didn’t say Virginia doesn’t have many options. I said it doesn’t have many *good* options. How to define a “good” school is subjective. I personally think UVa, W&M, UMCP, and VT are good or great. JMU, GMU, and UMBC are just OK.

(2) An option is not really an option if you cannot choose it. UVa and W&M are extremely selective. VT, a land grant school, became very selective for popular majors.

And VT prefers the OOS kids, which makes things worse. Look at the acceptance rate:

VT in-state: 50%
VT OOS: 63%

This is same for JMU. Very easy admission for OOS kids.

JMU in-state: 71%
JMU OOS: 87%

So I think it’s very possible that many good students who would get in a big state school such as Michigan State or Pitt/PSU didn’t get in VT only because they live in Northern Virginia. (Also kids who would get in a second tier public school such as Temple may not get in JMU)

I am sure some people already knew that the college options in Virginia are not that great any more. Let’s just accept the reality.

Four good or great public options in the state is pretty impressive really. Certainly better than Maryland, NYS or Mass.

Number of public colleges in USNWR Top 100:
CA - 9
FL - 4
NJ - 4
NY - 3
VA - 3
PA - 3

Now do it per capita because on state on your list is a lot smaller than the rest

Yes, per capita is a better way to look at it - I agree. I've expanded to top 150 with a minimum of two schools per state. Per capita is in the parentheses - lower is better. This is based on 2020 census numbers, so I have not adjusted for population under age 35. That may be a better way to examine it.

Number of public colleges/universities in USNWR Top 150:
CA - 11 (1 school per 3.59M residents)
VA - 6 (1.44M)
NY - 6 (3.37M)
FL - 6 (3.59M)
TX - 4 (7.29M)
NJ - 4 (2.32M)
PA - 3 (4.33M)
OH - 3 (3.93M)
IA - 2 (1.60M)
OR - 2 (2.12M)
AZ - 2 (3.58M)
IN - 2 (3.39M)
MD - 2 (3.09M)
MI - 2 (5.04M)
GA - 2 (5.36M)
NC - 2 (5.22M)
IL - 2 (6.41M)
CO - 2 (2.89M)
SC - 2 (2.56M)

But what about the size of school?

Undergraduate Enrollment

W&M: 6800
UVA: 17,500
VT: 30,400

Total: 54,700

Arizona State: 65,500
Arizona: 40,400

Michigan: 33,700
MSU: 39,200

IU: 35,600
Purdue: 38,000

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here again.

Not sure why so many people were triggered but let me try to clarify:

(1) I didn’t say Virginia doesn’t have many options. I said it doesn’t have many *good* options. How to define a “good” school is subjective. I personally think UVa, W&M, UMCP, and VT are good or great. JMU, GMU, and UMBC are just OK.

(2) An option is not really an option if you cannot choose it. UVa and W&M are extremely selective. VT, a land grant school, became very selective for popular majors.

And VT prefers the OOS kids, which makes things worse. Look at the acceptance rate:

VT in-state: 50%
VT OOS: 63%

This is same for JMU. Very easy admission for OOS kids.

JMU in-state: 71%
JMU OOS: 87%

So I think it’s very possible that many good students who would get in a big state school such as Michigan State or Pitt/PSU didn’t get in VT only because they live in Northern Virginia. (Also kids who would get in a second tier public school such as Temple may not get in JMU)

I am sure some people already knew that the college options in Virginia are not that great any more. Let’s just accept the reality.

Four good or great public options in the state is pretty impressive really. Certainly better than Maryland, NYS or Mass.

Number of public colleges in USNWR Top 100:
CA - 9
FL - 4
NJ - 4
NY - 3
VA - 3
PA - 3

Now do it per capita because on state on your list is a lot smaller than the rest

Yes, per capita is a better way to look at it - I agree. I've expanded to top 150 with a minimum of two schools per state. Per capita is in the parentheses - lower is better. This is based on 2020 census numbers, so I have not adjusted for population under age 35. That may be a better way to examine it.

Number of public colleges/universities in USNWR Top 150:
CA - 11 (1 school per 3.59M residents)
VA - 6 (1.44M)
NY - 6 (3.37M)
FL - 6 (3.59M)
TX - 4 (7.29M)
NJ - 4 (2.32M)
PA - 3 (4.33M)
OH - 3 (3.93M)
IA - 2 (1.60M)
OR - 2 (2.12M)
AZ - 2 (3.58M)
IN - 2 (3.39M)
MD - 2 (3.09M)
MI - 2 (5.04M)
GA - 2 (5.36M)
NC - 2 (5.22M)
IL - 2 (6.41M)
CO - 2 (2.89M)
SC - 2 (2.56M)

But what about the size of school?

Undergraduate Enrollment

W&M: 6800
UVA: 17,500
VT: 30,400

Total: 54,700

Arizona State: 65,500
Arizona: 40,400

Michigan: 33,700
MSU: 39,200

IU: 35,600
Purdue: 38,000

Agree. The PPP was tabulating in-state schools in the T150 per high school senior, but what OP is focused on is in-state seats in the T75 per high school senior. Those are the kids for whom the landscape in Virginia looks crummy: qualified Virginia residents who could get into many T75 state schools (but, because they live in NoVa, not the ones in Virginia) and many Virginia schools (but, because they live in NoVa, not the ones in the T100). Those kids and their families are forced to make a significant trade off on price or ranking, all while being told that there is no trade off.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here again.

Not sure why so many people were triggered but let me try to clarify:

(1) I didn’t say Virginia doesn’t have many options. I said it doesn’t have many *good* options. How to define a “good” school is subjective. I personally think UVa, W&M, UMCP, and VT are good or great. JMU, GMU, and UMBC are just OK.

(2) An option is not really an option if you cannot choose it. UVa and W&M are extremely selective. VT, a land grant school, became very selective for popular majors.

And VT prefers the OOS kids, which makes things worse. Look at the acceptance rate:

VT in-state: 50%
VT OOS: 63%

This is same for JMU. Very easy admission for OOS kids.

JMU in-state: 71%
JMU OOS: 87%

So I think it’s very possible that many good students who would get in a big state school such as Michigan State or Pitt/PSU didn’t get in VT only because they live in Northern Virginia. (Also kids who would get in a second tier public school such as Temple may not get in JMU)

I am sure some people already knew that the college options in Virginia are not that great any more. Let’s just accept the reality.

Four good or great public options in the state is pretty impressive really. Certainly better than Maryland, NYS or Mass.

Number of public colleges in USNWR Top 100:
CA - 9
FL - 4
NJ - 4
NY - 3
VA - 3
PA - 3

Now do it per capita because on state on your list is a lot smaller than the rest

Yes, per capita is a better way to look at it - I agree. I've expanded to top 150 with a minimum of two schools per state. Per capita is in the parentheses - lower is better. This is based on 2020 census numbers, so I have not adjusted for population under age 35. That may be a better way to examine it.

Number of public colleges/universities in USNWR Top 150:
CA - 11 (1 school per 3.59M residents)
VA - 6 (1.44M)
NY - 6 (3.37M)
FL - 6 (3.59M)
TX - 4 (7.29M)
NJ - 4 (2.32M)
PA - 3 (4.33M)
OH - 3 (3.93M)
IA - 2 (1.60M)
OR - 2 (2.12M)
AZ - 2 (3.58M)
IN - 2 (3.39M)
MD - 2 (3.09M)
MI - 2 (5.04M)
GA - 2 (5.36M)
NC - 2 (5.22M)
IL - 2 (6.41M)
CO - 2 (2.89M)
SC - 2 (2.56M)

But what about the size of school?

Undergraduate Enrollment

W&M: 6800
UVA: 17,500
VT: 30,400

Total: 54,700

Arizona State: 65,500
Arizona: 40,400

Michigan: 33,700
MSU: 39,200

IU: 35,600
Purdue: 38,000

Agree. The PPP was tabulating in-state schools in the T150 per high school senior, but what OP is focused on is in-state seats in the T75 per high school senior. Those are the kids for whom the landscape in Virginia looks crummy: qualified Virginia residents who could get into many T75 state schools (but, because they live in NoVa, not the ones in Virginia) and many Virginia schools (but, because they live in NoVa, not the ones in the T100). Those kids and their families are forced to make a significant trade off on price or ranking, all while being told that there is no trade off.

OP here.

You are exactly right.

As I had shown above, the total enrollment for three top schools is less than 55,000 and one third of them are OOS kids.

Too many NOVA kids who would easily get in state flagship in other states are forced to accept less desirable choices or look for OOS options.

I really don’t know why they don’t increase the enrollment faster and limit the OOS admission.

Instead people just repeat the same mantra:

Virginians are so blessed with so many choices.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here again.

Not sure why so many people were triggered but let me try to clarify:

(1) I didn’t say Virginia doesn’t have many options. I said it doesn’t have many *good* options. How to define a “good” school is subjective. I personally think UVa, W&M, UMCP, and VT are good or great. JMU, GMU, and UMBC are just OK.

(2) An option is not really an option if you cannot choose it. UVa and W&M are extremely selective. VT, a land grant school, became very selective for popular majors.

And VT prefers the OOS kids, which makes things worse. Look at the acceptance rate:

VT in-state: 50%
VT OOS: 63%

This is same for JMU. Very easy admission for OOS kids.

JMU in-state: 71%
JMU OOS: 87%

So I think it’s very possible that many good students who would get in a big state school such as Michigan State or Pitt/PSU didn’t get in VT only because they live in Northern Virginia. (Also kids who would get in a second tier public school such as Temple may not get in JMU)

I am sure some people already knew that the college options in Virginia are not that great any more. Let’s just accept the reality.

Maybe the OOS acceptance rate is higher for VT and JMU because the OOS kids who *are* applying have higher stats on average than the in-state kids. Is that a possibllity?

It's a possibility. But more likely is that if they want X out of state students to enroll, they know the yield will be much lower, so they have to admit more to achieve that. I'm no longer in VA, and I can tell you JMU and even VT are not on kid's lists for OOS schools. They are not a UMich or UWisconsin. So I suspect they may be safety/give it a whirl school choices for some in case they dont' get into something better.

Tell that to all the OOS parents on the FB pages of both those schools.
DP

I'm sure most of the OOS students at JMU and VaTech are all very excited to be there. They picked a school that's a great fit for THEIR kid.


However, I'm not in DCUM area anymore, and nobody applies to either of those, whereas I personally know 4 OOS attending UWisconsin and 2 attending UMich, from my kid's friends group and family. And there were several more who got in but chose elsewhere at the HS. Those two are extremely popular for Top State Flagships for OOS students.

Well.. UMich is close to T20 territory and is T20 for pretty much all academic departments. Wisconsin, while a tier below, is a robust, full-fledged state school and has been in that neighborhood for a while. Tech is just climbing into the T50 zone, that too thanks to some USNews woke math. JMU is a T100 at best. Can't compare.

From an experience perspective, can't beat the first two. From a salary outcomes perspective, the last 3 should be comparable.

Do people really choose where to go to college based on salary outcomes?

They think they do and it's ridiculous. So if the "outcome" are teachers and social workers and therapists and police officers, then they failed? If this is the case our society is doomed.

Cut your BS. You can become a social worker after attending in-state college or Nova. OTOH, if you pay full fare to go to Harvard with the intention of becoming a social worker.. well, you may make the cut at the "A fool and his money.." audition.

+1

If you know you want a "lower starting pay major", then it behooves you to select a college that is affordable to you. Say education---as long as the program is accredited, it's good. You want to do it in the state you ultimately want to teach so you can do student teaching there and be certified to teach in that state. Likewise, if you ultimately want to be a Social worker, it is not smart to go into major debt, because you can successfully become a social worker at your state U that is more affordable for you. But it certainly does not make sense to come out of school with 50K+ in loans if you can do it with none or much less.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here again.

Not sure why so many people were triggered but let me try to clarify:

(1) I didn’t say Virginia doesn’t have many options. I said it doesn’t have many *good* options. How to define a “good” school is subjective. I personally think UVa, W&M, UMCP, and VT are good or great. JMU, GMU, and UMBC are just OK.

(2) An option is not really an option if you cannot choose it. UVa and W&M are extremely selective. VT, a land grant school, became very selective for popular majors.

And VT prefers the OOS kids, which makes things worse. Look at the acceptance rate:

VT in-state: 50%
VT OOS: 63%

This is same for JMU. Very easy admission for OOS kids.

JMU in-state: 71%
JMU OOS: 87%

So I think it’s very possible that many good students who would get in a big state school such as Michigan State or Pitt/PSU didn’t get in VT only because they live in Northern Virginia. (Also kids who would get in a second tier public school such as Temple may not get in JMU)

I am sure some people already knew that the college options in Virginia are not that great any more. Let’s just accept the reality.

Four good or great public options in the state is pretty impressive really. Certainly better than Maryland, NYS or Mass.

Number of public colleges in USNWR Top 100:
CA - 9
FL - 4
NJ - 4
NY - 3
VA - 3
PA - 3

Now do it per capita because on state on your list is a lot smaller than the rest

Yes, per capita is a better way to look at it - I agree. I've expanded to top 150 with a minimum of two schools per state. Per capita is in the parentheses - lower is better. This is based on 2020 census numbers, so I have not adjusted for population under age 35. That may be a better way to examine it.

Number of public colleges/universities in USNWR Top 150:
CA - 11 (1 school per 3.59M residents)
VA - 6 (1.44M)
NY - 6 (3.37M)
FL - 6 (3.59M)
TX - 4 (7.29M)
NJ - 4 (2.32M)
PA - 3 (4.33M)
OH - 3 (3.93M)
IA - 2 (1.60M)
OR - 2 (2.12M)
AZ - 2 (3.58M)
IN - 2 (3.39M)
MD - 2 (3.09M)
MI - 2 (5.04M)
GA - 2 (5.36M)
NC - 2 (5.22M)
IL - 2 (6.41M)
CO - 2 (2.89M)
SC - 2 (2.56M)

But what about the size of school?

Undergraduate Enrollment

W&M: 6800
UVA: 17,500
VT: 30,400

Total: 54,700

Arizona State: 65,500
Arizona: 40,400

Michigan: 33,700
MSU: 39,200

IU: 35,600
Purdue: 38,000

Agree. The PPP was tabulating in-state schools in the T150 per high school senior, but what OP is focused on is in-state seats in the T75 per high school senior. Those are the kids for whom the landscape in Virginia looks crummy: qualified Virginia residents who could get into many T75 state schools (but, because they live in NoVa, not the ones in Virginia) and many Virginia schools (but, because they live in NoVa, not the ones in the T100). Those kids and their families are forced to make a significant trade off on price or ranking, all while being told that there is no trade off.

OP here.

You are exactly right.

As I had shown above, the total enrollment for three top schools is less than 55,000 and one third of them are OOS kids.

Too many NOVA kids who would easily get in state flagship in other states are forced to accept less desirable choices or look for OOS options.

I really don’t know why they don’t increase the enrollment faster and limit the OOS admission.

Instead people just repeat the same mantra:

Virginians are so blessed with so many choices.

William and Mary and UVA will probably never expand much beyond their current capacity, no space. UVA is struggling now to get 2nd years on grounds housing… Is what it is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here again.

Not sure why so many people were triggered but let me try to clarify:

(1) I didn’t say Virginia doesn’t have many options. I said it doesn’t have many *good* options. How to define a “good” school is subjective. I personally think UVa, W&M, UMCP, and VT are good or great. JMU, GMU, and UMBC are just OK.

(2) An option is not really an option if you cannot choose it. UVa and W&M are extremely selective. VT, a land grant school, became very selective for popular majors.

And VT prefers the OOS kids, which makes things worse. Look at the acceptance rate:

VT in-state: 50%
VT OOS: 63%

This is same for JMU. Very easy admission for OOS kids.

JMU in-state: 71%
JMU OOS: 87%

So I think it’s very possible that many good students who would get in a big state school such as Michigan State or Pitt/PSU didn’t get in VT only because they live in Northern Virginia. (Also kids who would get in a second tier public school such as Temple may not get in JMU)

I am sure some people already knew that the college options in Virginia are not that great any more. Let’s just accept the reality.

Four good or great public options in the state is pretty impressive really. Certainly better than Maryland, NYS or Mass.

Number of public colleges in USNWR Top 100:
CA - 9
FL - 4
NJ - 4
NY - 3
VA - 3
PA - 3

Now do it per capita because on state on your list is a lot smaller than the rest

Yes, per capita is a better way to look at it - I agree. I've expanded to top 150 with a minimum of two schools per state. Per capita is in the parentheses - lower is better. This is based on 2020 census numbers, so I have not adjusted for population under age 35. That may be a better way to examine it.

Number of public colleges/universities in USNWR Top 150:
CA - 11 (1 school per 3.59M residents)
VA - 6 (1.44M)
NY - 6 (3.37M)
FL - 6 (3.59M)
TX - 4 (7.29M)
NJ - 4 (2.32M)
PA - 3 (4.33M)
OH - 3 (3.93M)
IA - 2 (1.60M)
OR - 2 (2.12M)
AZ - 2 (3.58M)
IN - 2 (3.39M)
MD - 2 (3.09M)
MI - 2 (5.04M)
GA - 2 (5.36M)
NC - 2 (5.22M)
IL - 2 (6.41M)
CO - 2 (2.89M)
SC - 2 (2.56M)

But what about the size of school?

Undergraduate Enrollment

W&M: 6800
UVA: 17,500
VT: 30,400

Total: 54,700

Arizona State: 65,500
Arizona: 40,400

Michigan: 33,700
MSU: 39,200

IU: 35,600
Purdue: 38,000

Based on size, VT is the commonwealth "state" school equivalent of the large universities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here again.

Not sure why so many people were triggered but let me try to clarify:

(1) I didn’t say Virginia doesn’t have many options. I said it doesn’t have many *good* options. How to define a “good” school is subjective. I personally think UVa, W&M, UMCP, and VT are good or great. JMU, GMU, and UMBC are just OK.

(2) An option is not really an option if you cannot choose it. UVa and W&M are extremely selective. VT, a land grant school, became very selective for popular majors.

And VT prefers the OOS kids, which makes things worse. Look at the acceptance rate:

VT in-state: 50%
VT OOS: 63%

This is same for JMU. Very easy admission for OOS kids.

JMU in-state: 71%
JMU OOS: 87%

So I think it’s very possible that many good students who would get in a big state school such as Michigan State or Pitt/PSU didn’t get in VT only because they live in Northern Virginia. (Also kids who would get in a second tier public school such as Temple may not get in JMU)

I am sure some people already knew that the college options in Virginia are not that great any more. Let’s just accept the reality.

Four good or great public options in the state is pretty impressive really. Certainly better than Maryland, NYS or Mass.

Number of public colleges in USNWR Top 100:
CA - 9
FL - 4
NJ - 4
NY - 3
VA - 3
PA - 3

Now do it per capita because on state on your list is a lot smaller than the rest

Yes, per capita is a better way to look at it - I agree. I've expanded to top 150 with a minimum of two schools per state. Per capita is in the parentheses - lower is better. This is based on 2020 census numbers, so I have not adjusted for population under age 35. That may be a better way to examine it.

Number of public colleges/universities in USNWR Top 150:
CA - 11 (1 school per 3.59M residents)
VA - 6 (1.44M)
NY - 6 (3.37M)
FL - 6 (3.59M)
TX - 4 (7.29M)
NJ - 4 (2.32M)
PA - 3 (4.33M)
OH - 3 (3.93M)
IA - 2 (1.60M)
OR - 2 (2.12M)
AZ - 2 (3.58M)
IN - 2 (3.39M)
MD - 2 (3.09M)
MI - 2 (5.04M)
GA - 2 (5.36M)
NC - 2 (5.22M)
IL - 2 (6.41M)
CO - 2 (2.89M)
SC - 2 (2.56M)

But what about the size of school?

Undergraduate Enrollment

W&M: 6800
UVA: 17,500
VT: 30,400

Total: 54,700

Arizona State: 65,500
Arizona: 40,400

Michigan: 33,700
MSU: 39,200

IU: 35,600
Purdue: 38,000

Based on size, VT is the commonwealth "state" school equivalent of the large universities.

Michigan likely has it the "best" Both flagships are in the T60, with MSU having an acceptance rate of over 80% (SAT 25-75% are 1130-1350, 1130 is ~65% for SAT scores, really great for a school ranked "T60") . And the admissions into specific engineering programs appears to be well laid out---certain GPA on the prerequisites and you are in. But their disadvantage is both are huge state schools. They do not have any smaller schools (UVA is mid size, W&M is 7K). So I suspect kids in MI who want a smaller experience at a T100 school have no choice but to go private.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here again.

Not sure why so many people were triggered but let me try to clarify:

(1) I didn’t say Virginia doesn’t have many options. I said it doesn’t have many *good* options. How to define a “good” school is subjective. I personally think UVa, W&M, UMCP, and VT are good or great. JMU, GMU, and UMBC are just OK.

(2) An option is not really an option if you cannot choose it. UVa and W&M are extremely selective. VT, a land grant school, became very selective for popular majors.

And VT prefers the OOS kids, which makes things worse. Look at the acceptance rate:

VT in-state: 50%
VT OOS: 63%

This is same for JMU. Very easy admission for OOS kids.

JMU in-state: 71%
JMU OOS: 87%

So I think it’s very possible that many good students who would get in a big state school such as Michigan State or Pitt/PSU didn’t get in VT only because they live in Northern Virginia. (Also kids who would get in a second tier public school such as Temple may not get in JMU)

I am sure some people already knew that the college options in Virginia are not that great any more. Let’s just accept the reality.

Four good or great public options in the state is pretty impressive really. Certainly better than Maryland, NYS or Mass.

Number of public colleges in USNWR Top 100:
CA - 9
FL - 4
NJ - 4
NY - 3
VA - 3
PA - 3

Now do it per capita because on state on your list is a lot smaller than the rest

Yes, per capita is a better way to look at it - I agree. I've expanded to top 150 with a minimum of two schools per state. Per capita is in the parentheses - lower is better. This is based on 2020 census numbers, so I have not adjusted for population under age 35. That may be a better way to examine it.

Number of public colleges/universities in USNWR Top 150:
CA - 11 (1 school per 3.59M residents)
VA - 6 (1.44M)
NY - 6 (3.37M)
FL - 6 (3.59M)
TX - 4 (7.29M)
NJ - 4 (2.32M)
PA - 3 (4.33M)
OH - 3 (3.93M)
IA - 2 (1.60M)
OR - 2 (2.12M)
AZ - 2 (3.58M)
IN - 2 (3.39M)
MD - 2 (3.09M)
MI - 2 (5.04M)
GA - 2 (5.36M)
NC - 2 (5.22M)
IL - 2 (6.41M)
CO - 2 (2.89M)
SC - 2 (2.56M)

But what about the size of school?

Undergraduate Enrollment

W&M: 6800
UVA: 17,500
VT: 30,400

Total: 54,700

Arizona State: 65,500
Arizona: 40,400

Michigan: 33,700
MSU: 39,200

IU: 35,600
Purdue: 38,000

Agree. The PPP was tabulating in-state schools in the T150 per high school senior, but what OP is focused on is in-state seats in the T75 per high school senior. Those are the kids for whom the landscape in Virginia looks crummy: qualified Virginia residents who could get into many T75 state schools (but, because they live in NoVa, not the ones in Virginia) and many Virginia schools (but, because they live in NoVa, not the ones in the T100). Those kids and their families are forced to make a significant trade off on price or ranking, all while being told that there is no trade off.

OP here.

You are exactly right.

As I had shown above, the total enrollment for three top schools is less than 55,000 and one third of them are OOS kids.

Too many NOVA kids who would easily get in state flagship in other states are forced to accept less desirable choices or look for OOS options.

I really don’t know why they don’t increase the enrollment faster and limit the OOS admission.

Instead people just repeat the same mantra:

Virginians are so blessed with so many choices.

Does UVA and W&M admissions have a different set of admissions criteria depending on your VA zip code or county on the application?

I know people say "it's easier to get in if you're from RoVA" but how does it actually work in practice?

For example, someone whose parents live in a rural part of VA but they actually go to a tony and expensive boarding school - are they getting the "RoVA" bump?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here again.

Not sure why so many people were triggered but let me try to clarify:

(1) I didn’t say Virginia doesn’t have many options. I said it doesn’t have many *good* options. How to define a “good” school is subjective. I personally think UVa, W&M, UMCP, and VT are good or great. JMU, GMU, and UMBC are just OK.

(2) An option is not really an option if you cannot choose it. UVa and W&M are extremely selective. VT, a land grant school, became very selective for popular majors.

And VT prefers the OOS kids, which makes things worse. Look at the acceptance rate:

VT in-state: 50%
VT OOS: 63%

This is same for JMU. Very easy admission for OOS kids.

JMU in-state: 71%
JMU OOS: 87%

So I think it’s very possible that many good students who would get in a big state school such as Michigan State or Pitt/PSU didn’t get in VT only because they live in Northern Virginia. (Also kids who would get in a second tier public school such as Temple may not get in JMU)

I am sure some people already knew that the college options in Virginia are not that great any more. Let’s just accept the reality.

Four good or great public options in the state is pretty impressive really. Certainly better than Maryland, NYS or Mass.

Number of public colleges in USNWR Top 100:
CA - 9
FL - 4
NJ - 4
NY - 3
VA - 3
PA - 3

Now do it per capita because on state on your list is a lot smaller than the rest

Yes, per capita is a better way to look at it - I agree. I've expanded to top 150 with a minimum of two schools per state. Per capita is in the parentheses - lower is better. This is based on 2020 census numbers, so I have not adjusted for population under age 35. That may be a better way to examine it.

Number of public colleges/universities in USNWR Top 150:
CA - 11 (1 school per 3.59M residents)
VA - 6 (1.44M)
NY - 6 (3.37M)
FL - 6 (3.59M)
TX - 4 (7.29M)
NJ - 4 (2.32M)
PA - 3 (4.33M)
OH - 3 (3.93M)
IA - 2 (1.60M)
OR - 2 (2.12M)
AZ - 2 (3.58M)
IN - 2 (3.39M)
MD - 2 (3.09M)
MI - 2 (5.04M)
GA - 2 (5.36M)
NC - 2 (5.22M)
IL - 2 (6.41M)
CO - 2 (2.89M)
SC - 2 (2.56M)

But what about the size of school?

Undergraduate Enrollment

W&M: 6800
UVA: 17,500
VT: 30,400

Total: 54,700

Arizona State: 65,500
Arizona: 40,400

Michigan: 33,700
MSU: 39,200

IU: 35,600
Purdue: 38,000

uh, Calfornia hasnt' been 3.9 million residents since I grew up there a LONG LONG time ago. California has 10 x that number of residents. 38.9 million
California is the most populated U.S. state, with an estimated population of 38.9 million as of 2023. It has people from a wide variety of ethnic, racial, national, and religious backgrounds.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here again.

Not sure why so many people were triggered but let me try to clarify:

(1) I didn’t say Virginia doesn’t have many options. I said it doesn’t have many *good* options. How to define a “good” school is subjective. I personally think UVa, W&M, UMCP, and VT are good or great. JMU, GMU, and UMBC are just OK.

(2) An option is not really an option if you cannot choose it. UVa and W&M are extremely selective. VT, a land grant school, became very selective for popular majors.

And VT prefers the OOS kids, which makes things worse. Look at the acceptance rate:

VT in-state: 50%
VT OOS: 63%

This is same for JMU. Very easy admission for OOS kids.

JMU in-state: 71%
JMU OOS: 87%

So I think it’s very possible that many good students who would get in a big state school such as Michigan State or Pitt/PSU didn’t get in VT only because they live in Northern Virginia. (Also kids who would get in a second tier public school such as Temple may not get in JMU)

I am sure some people already knew that the college options in Virginia are not that great any more. Let’s just accept the reality.

Four good or great public options in the state is pretty impressive really. Certainly better than Maryland, NYS or Mass.

Number of public colleges in USNWR Top 100:
CA - 9
FL - 4
NJ - 4
NY - 3
VA - 3
PA - 3

Now do it per capita because on state on your list is a lot smaller than the rest

Yes, per capita is a better way to look at it - I agree. I've expanded to top 150 with a minimum of two schools per state. Per capita is in the parentheses - lower is better. This is based on 2020 census numbers, so I have not adjusted for population under age 35. That may be a better way to examine it.

Number of public colleges/universities in USNWR Top 150:
CA - 11 (1 school per 3.59M residents)
VA - 6 (1.44M)
NY - 6 (3.37M)
FL - 6 (3.59M)
TX - 4 (7.29M)
NJ - 4 (2.32M)
PA - 3 (4.33M)
OH - 3 (3.93M)
IA - 2 (1.60M)
OR - 2 (2.12M)
AZ - 2 (3.58M)
IN - 2 (3.39M)
MD - 2 (3.09M)
MI - 2 (5.04M)
GA - 2 (5.36M)
NC - 2 (5.22M)
IL - 2 (6.41M)
CO - 2 (2.89M)
SC - 2 (2.56M)

But what about the size of school?

Undergraduate Enrollment

W&M: 6800
UVA: 17,500
VT: 30,400

Total: 54,700

Arizona State: 65,500
Arizona: 40,400

Michigan: 33,700
MSU: 39,200

IU: 35,600
Purdue: 38,000

uh, Calfornia hasnt' been 3.9 million residents since I grew up there a LONG LONG time ago. California has 10 x that number of residents. 38.9 million
California is the most populated U.S. state, with an estimated population of 38.9 million as of 2023. It has people from a wide variety of ethnic, racial, national, and religious backgrounds.

Didn't take much arithmetic in elementary school, did you? 3.59 million per school means they divided 38.9 by 11.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here again.

Not sure why so many people were triggered but let me try to clarify:

(1) I didn’t say Virginia doesn’t have many options. I said it doesn’t have many *good* options. How to define a “good” school is subjective. I personally think UVa, W&M, UMCP, and VT are good or great. JMU, GMU, and UMBC are just OK.

(2) An option is not really an option if you cannot choose it. UVa and W&M are extremely selective. VT, a land grant school, became very selective for popular majors.

And VT prefers the OOS kids, which makes things worse. Look at the acceptance rate:

VT in-state: 50%
VT OOS: 63%

This is same for JMU. Very easy admission for OOS kids.

JMU in-state: 71%
JMU OOS: 87%

So I think it’s very possible that many good students who would get in a big state school such as Michigan State or Pitt/PSU didn’t get in VT only because they live in Northern Virginia. (Also kids who would get in a second tier public school such as Temple may not get in JMU)

I am sure some people already knew that the college options in Virginia are not that great any more. Let’s just accept the reality.

Four good or great public options in the state is pretty impressive really. Certainly better than Maryland, NYS or Mass.

Number of public colleges in USNWR Top 100:
CA - 9
FL - 4
NJ - 4
NY - 3
VA - 3
PA - 3

Now do it per capita because on state on your list is a lot smaller than the rest

Yes, per capita is a better way to look at it - I agree. I've expanded to top 150 with a minimum of two schools per state. Per capita is in the parentheses - lower is better. This is based on 2020 census numbers, so I have not adjusted for population under age 35. That may be a better way to examine it.

Number of public colleges/universities in USNWR Top 150:
CA - 11 (1 school per 3.59M residents)
VA - 6 (1.44M)
NY - 6 (3.37M)
FL - 6 (3.59M)
TX - 4 (7.29M)
NJ - 4 (2.32M)
PA - 3 (4.33M)
OH - 3 (3.93M)
IA - 2 (1.60M)
OR - 2 (2.12M)
AZ - 2 (3.58M)
IN - 2 (3.39M)
MD - 2 (3.09M)
MI - 2 (5.04M)
GA - 2 (5.36M)
NC - 2 (5.22M)
IL - 2 (6.41M)
CO - 2 (2.89M)
SC - 2 (2.56M)

But what about the size of school?

Undergraduate Enrollment

W&M: 6800
UVA: 17,500
VT: 30,400

Total: 54,700

Arizona State: 65,500
Arizona: 40,400

Michigan: 33,700
MSU: 39,200

IU: 35,600
Purdue: 38,000

uh, Calfornia hasnt' been 3.9 million residents since I grew up there a LONG LONG time ago. California has 10 x that number of residents. 38.9 million
California is the most populated U.S. state, with an estimated population of 38.9 million as of 2023. It has people from a wide variety of ethnic, racial, national, and religious backgrounds.

Didn't take much arithmetic in elementary school, did you? 3.59 million per school means they divided 38.9 by 11.

uh, can you respond in a way that actually elucidates the problem? Insults don't help. Cal is almost 50M in population.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here again.

Not sure why so many people were triggered but let me try to clarify:

(1) I didn’t say Virginia doesn’t have many options. I said it doesn’t have many *good* options. How to define a “good” school is subjective. I personally think UVa, W&M, UMCP, and VT are good or great. JMU, GMU, and UMBC are just OK.

(2) An option is not really an option if you cannot choose it. UVa and W&M are extremely selective. VT, a land grant school, became very selective for popular majors.

And VT prefers the OOS kids, which makes things worse. Look at the acceptance rate:

VT in-state: 50%
VT OOS: 63%

This is same for JMU. Very easy admission for OOS kids.

JMU in-state: 71%
JMU OOS: 87%

So I think it’s very possible that many good students who would get in a big state school such as Michigan State or Pitt/PSU didn’t get in VT only because they live in Northern Virginia. (Also kids who would get in a second tier public school such as Temple may not get in JMU)

I am sure some people already knew that the college options in Virginia are not that great any more. Let’s just accept the reality.

Four good or great public options in the state is pretty impressive really. Certainly better than Maryland, NYS or Mass.

Number of public colleges in USNWR Top 100:
CA - 9
FL - 4
NJ - 4
NY - 3
VA - 3
PA - 3

Now do it per capita because on state on your list is a lot smaller than the rest

Yes, per capita is a better way to look at it - I agree. I've expanded to top 150 with a minimum of two schools per state. Per capita is in the parentheses - lower is better. This is based on 2020 census numbers, so I have not adjusted for population under age 35. That may be a better way to examine it.

Number of public colleges/universities in USNWR Top 150:
CA - 11 (1 school per 3.59M residents)
VA - 6 (1.44M)
NY - 6 (3.37M)
FL - 6 (3.59M)
TX - 4 (7.29M)
NJ - 4 (2.32M)
PA - 3 (4.33M)
OH - 3 (3.93M)
IA - 2 (1.60M)
OR - 2 (2.12M)
AZ - 2 (3.58M)
IN - 2 (3.39M)
MD - 2 (3.09M)
MI - 2 (5.04M)
GA - 2 (5.36M)
NC - 2 (5.22M)
IL - 2 (6.41M)
CO - 2 (2.89M)
SC - 2 (2.56M)

But what about the size of school?

Undergraduate Enrollment

W&M: 6800
UVA: 17,500
VT: 30,400

Total: 54,700

Arizona State: 65,500
Arizona: 40,400

Michigan: 33,700
MSU: 39,200

IU: 35,600
Purdue: 38,000

Agree. The PPP was tabulating in-state schools in the T150 per high school senior, but what OP is focused on is in-state seats in the T75 per high school senior. Those are the kids for whom the landscape in Virginia looks crummy: qualified Virginia residents who could get into many T75 state schools (but, because they live in NoVa, not the ones in Virginia) and many Virginia schools (but, because they live in NoVa, not the ones in the T100). Those kids and their families are forced to make a significant trade off on price or ranking, all while being told that there is no trade off.

OP here.

You are exactly right.

As I had shown above, the total enrollment for three top schools is less than 55,000 and one third of them are OOS kids.

Too many NOVA kids who would easily get in state flagship in other states are forced to accept less desirable choices or look for OOS options.

I really don’t know why they don’t increase the enrollment faster and limit the OOS admission.

Instead people just repeat the same mantra:

Virginians are so blessed with so many choices.

Does UVA and W&M admissions have a different set of admissions criteria depending on your VA zip code or county on the application?

I know people say "it's easier to get in if you're from RoVA" but how does it actually work in practice?

For example, someone whose parents live in a rural part of VA but they actually go to a tony and expensive boarding school - are they getting the "RoVA" bump?

UVA (like most state schools) wants kids from all over the state. Since NoVa is filled with parents who push academics (and have the money for everything involved to be a top student since birth), there are many more kids from NoVa with "excellent resumes". Not as many kids with "excellent resumes" from RoVa. So those with top stats and ECs, etc. are much more likely to get admission, because they want to accept kids from all regions.

Same approach to the elite/T20 schools, that it's easier to get in if you live in Wyoming or Montana, simply because 40% of your HS class is not applying to several T25 schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here again.

Not sure why so many people were triggered but let me try to clarify:

(1) I didn’t say Virginia doesn’t have many options. I said it doesn’t have many *good* options. How to define a “good” school is subjective. I personally think UVa, W&M, UMCP, and VT are good or great. JMU, GMU, and UMBC are just OK.

(2) An option is not really an option if you cannot choose it. UVa and W&M are extremely selective. VT, a land grant school, became very selective for popular majors.

And VT prefers the OOS kids, which makes things worse. Look at the acceptance rate:

VT in-state: 50%
VT OOS: 63%

This is same for JMU. Very easy admission for OOS kids.

JMU in-state: 71%
JMU OOS: 87%

So I think it’s very possible that many good students who would get in a big state school such as Michigan State or Pitt/PSU didn’t get in VT only because they live in Northern Virginia. (Also kids who would get in a second tier public school such as Temple may not get in JMU)

I am sure some people already knew that the college options in Virginia are not that great any more. Let’s just accept the reality.

Four good or great public options in the state is pretty impressive really. Certainly better than Maryland, NYS or Mass.

Number of public colleges in USNWR Top 100:
CA - 9
FL - 4
NJ - 4
NY - 3
VA - 3
PA - 3

Now do it per capita because on state on your list is a lot smaller than the rest

Yes, per capita is a better way to look at it - I agree. I've expanded to top 150 with a minimum of two schools per state. Per capita is in the parentheses - lower is better. This is based on 2020 census numbers, so I have not adjusted for population under age 35. That may be a better way to examine it.

Number of public colleges/universities in USNWR Top 150:
CA - 11 (1 school per 3.59M residents)
VA - 6 (1.44M)
NY - 6 (3.37M)
FL - 6 (3.59M)
TX - 4 (7.29M)
NJ - 4 (2.32M)
PA - 3 (4.33M)
OH - 3 (3.93M)
IA - 2 (1.60M)
OR - 2 (2.12M)
AZ - 2 (3.58M)
IN - 2 (3.39M)
MD - 2 (3.09M)
MI - 2 (5.04M)
GA - 2 (5.36M)
NC - 2 (5.22M)
IL - 2 (6.41M)
CO - 2 (2.89M)
SC - 2 (2.56M)

But what about the size of school?

Undergraduate Enrollment

W&M: 6800
UVA: 17,500
VT: 30,400

Total: 54,700

Arizona State: 65,500
Arizona: 40,400

Michigan: 33,700
MSU: 39,200

IU: 35,600
Purdue: 38,000

uh, Calfornia hasnt' been 3.9 million residents since I grew up there a LONG LONG time ago. California has 10 x that number of residents. 38.9 million
California is the most populated U.S. state, with an estimated population of 38.9 million as of 2023. It has people from a wide variety of ethnic, racial, national, and religious backgrounds.

Didn't take much arithmetic in elementary school, did you? 3.59 million per school means they divided 38.9 by 11.

uh, can you respond in a way that actually elucidates the problem? Insults don't help. Cal is almost 50M in population.

No it isn't. California has 39 million residents according to the Census or roughly 3.59 times 11. The original numbers are right.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP here again.

Not sure why so many people were triggered but let me try to clarify:

(1) I didn’t say Virginia doesn’t have many options. I said it doesn’t have many *good* options. How to define a “good” school is subjective. I personally think UVa, W&M, UMCP, and VT are good or great. JMU, GMU, and UMBC are just OK.

(2) An option is not really an option if you cannot choose it. UVa and W&M are extremely selective. VT, a land grant school, became very selective for popular majors.

And VT prefers the OOS kids, which makes things worse. Look at the acceptance rate:

VT in-state: 50%
VT OOS: 63%

This is same for JMU. Very easy admission for OOS kids.

JMU in-state: 71%
JMU OOS: 87%

So I think it’s very possible that many good students who would get in a big state school such as Michigan State or Pitt/PSU didn’t get in VT only because they live in Northern Virginia. (Also kids who would get in a second tier public school such as Temple may not get in JMU)

I am sure some people already knew that the college options in Virginia are not that great any more. Let’s just accept the reality.

Four good or great public options in the state is pretty impressive really. Certainly better than Maryland, NYS or Mass.

Number of public colleges in USNWR Top 100:
CA - 9
FL - 4
NJ - 4
NY - 3
VA - 3
PA - 3

Now do it per capita because on state on your list is a lot smaller than the rest

Yes, per capita is a better way to look at it - I agree. I've expanded to top 150 with a minimum of two schools per state. Per capita is in the parentheses - lower is better. This is based on 2020 census numbers, so I have not adjusted for population under age 35. That may be a better way to examine it.

Number of public colleges/universities in USNWR Top 150:
CA - 11 (1 school per 3.59M residents)
VA - 6 (1.44M)
NY - 6 (3.37M)
FL - 6 (3.59M)
TX - 4 (7.29M)
NJ - 4 (2.32M)
PA - 3 (4.33M)
OH - 3 (3.93M)
IA - 2 (1.60M)
OR - 2 (2.12M)
AZ - 2 (3.58M)
IN - 2 (3.39M)
MD - 2 (3.09M)
MI - 2 (5.04M)
GA - 2 (5.36M)
NC - 2 (5.22M)
IL - 2 (6.41M)
CO - 2 (2.89M)
SC - 2 (2.56M)

But what about the size of school?

Undergraduate Enrollment

W&M: 6800
UVA: 17,500
VT: 30,400

Total: 54,700

Arizona State: 65,500
Arizona: 40,400

Michigan: 33,700
MSU: 39,200

IU: 35,600
Purdue: 38,000

Agree. The PPP was tabulating in-state schools in the T150 per high school senior, but what OP is focused on is in-state seats in the T75 per high school senior. Those are the kids for whom the landscape in Virginia looks crummy: qualified Virginia residents who could get into many T75 state schools (but, because they live in NoVa, not the ones in Virginia) and many Virginia schools (but, because they live in NoVa, not the ones in the T100). Those kids and their families are forced to make a significant trade off on price or ranking, all while being told that there is no trade off.

OP here.

You are exactly right.

As I had shown above, the total enrollment for three top schools is less than 55,000 and one third of them are OOS kids.

Too many NOVA kids who would easily get in state flagship in other states are forced to accept less desirable choices or look for OOS options.

I really don’t know why they don’t increase the enrollment faster and limit the OOS admission.

Instead people just repeat the same mantra:

Virginians are so blessed with so many choices.

Does UVA and W&M admissions have a different set of admissions criteria depending on your VA zip code or county on the application?

I know people say "it's easier to get in if you're from RoVA" but how does it actually work in practice?

For example, someone whose parents live in a rural part of VA but they actually go to a tony and expensive boarding school - are they getting the "RoVA" bump?

The UVA admissions rate is about 30% for each and every county in Virginia.