Just accepting unequal division of labor

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:What happens if you assign him a list of chores (doing the executive function piece for him) each night so it’s not just you sitting there catching up while he unwinds?

For me that’s the thing that would just be unacceptable.

“I’m tired, I need to watch tv. I had a long day. I didn’t sleep well again. I was up early, working.”

DP, but this. There is always an excuse.

A lot of this comes down to a game of chicken where my DH is willing to let a lot of things about our kids and our home get REALLY bad before he would step in and actually take the lead on them. And even then, he'd start with "Hey I noticed the kids fingernails are really long and dirty, we should probably do something about that" before actually doing anything -- "we" in this case means me.

I think I'd have to get like a terminal disease before he'd actually rouse himself to do a lot of this stuff, and even then I know he'd panic and be telling me that he just could never in a million years figure out how to sign our kids up for summer camp on his own, can I do it?

I think if I died, he'd get his mom to come live with him. But she's almost 80.

I can't die.

+1000 I think this is the crux of it for a lot of families (and I do not believe that ALL of these DHs have ADHD). I think women generally have higher standards for things like healthy meals, kid enrichment, clean and organized home. So a lot of these men aren't shirking in their minds; they just think their wives should chill out more instead of they should be stepping up and doing more. And honestly? Sometimes they might be right. Sometimes.

I'm the PP and while sometimes this is true, it's also true that men wield that "sometimes" as a weapon against their wives. It is very easy to say "you should just chill, the dishes can be done later" and "you should just chill, the kids don't need baths EVERY night" and "you should just chill, it's okay if Larlo is a little behind in math, he'll catch up" and "you should just chill, that rotting step on the back deck isn't that big of a deal -- we'll get to it eventually" and "you should just chill, we don't have to plan out our whole summer in January, camps surely don't fill up that fast," and "you should just chill, of course Larla can go to school today, it's probably just a cold," and so on and so on and son on.

A dynamic where a mom who worries about anything at all is "uptight" and has standards that are "too high" will always be an unequal dynamic, no matter how many things that mom decides to "just chill" on because her DH is using the dynamic to ensure he never has to do anything or worry about anything. He's relying on his wife to be NOT chill, and make sure that step gets fixed and research math tutors online and create a bath schedule so the kids don't go got school filthy, and know that actually, yeah, camps do fill up by February so you need to get on it, and Carla does not just have a cold since she's running a fever and can barely get out of bed so one of you (mom, obviously, since she's the not chill one) needs to stay home to take care of her. And the not chill mom will do all the stuff all while being told she's a helicopter mom and she worries to much. And DH gets to be soooooo chill and relaxed and roll his eyes at mom, sometimes in front of the kids and other parents. Lol, moms, amiright? They worry so much for no reason.

It's called "Weaponized Incompetence".

Who hasn't seen their husband doing something incorrectly for the 40th time and so we say "Forget it! I'll just do it!" and he says "You do it better than me, anyway". That's weaponized Incompetence.

They think by complimenting our prowess, that we'll forget and be fine with doing literally everything.
Men quickly learn if they want to get out of doing something, just flub it intentionally, negate they know we want it a certain way, that we'll ride on in to the rescue and do it ourselves.

Break the habit now... let him struggle, no matter how much it raises your anxiety, let him do it

I'm the PP and while I agree that weaponized incompetence is an issue, that's not what I was talking about.

I was talking about how society often paints wives/mothers as simply zealous -- caring too much about things that don't matter, having unreasonably high standards for parenting and home life.

This stereotype is rooted in some fact-- women do sometimes create pressures for ourselves, to excel in every aspect of life, and we could stand to go easier on ourselves (and our loved ones) at times.

However, not all women are perfectionists and not all efforts by women are overzealous or unnecessary. But men sometimes use this perception of women to adopt this nonchalant "chill dad" persona and dismiss EVERYTHING their wives do as unnecessary. But if course it is not, and the whole identity if "chill dad" relies fully in having a competent partner actually making the gears of their lives turn, all to enable him to roll his eyes about how his wife overextends herself.

This is not weaponized incompetence. It's more like weaponizing the competence of women... against women.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:op - I will give an example. Today I was on calls from 8a until 7p and then had to work until 9p. During this time our kid had a friend over and he was drinking beer with the friend's dad. when i finished my work I asked him to book this flight (a very specific flight that just involved the act of booking) that we needed for me so I could relax and it ended up in a huge fight and he stormed out. I find it really hard to get past the idea that if you see the person you are married to working for THIRTEEN HOURS (and I should stress I was working on something relating to the Israel/ Gaza conflict that was extremely high stress with as you can imagine many feelings) then if that person says can you take this thing off my plate then surely just say yes? Like - you really want to sit there watching tv while I do it? Something is very wrong there it feels like.

I’m so sorry, but it really sounds like you have far greater issues than just the division of labor here.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:If you two sat down together each day and divided what needed to be done, would he be able to do it?

I'm the ADHD spouse and I make myself daily lists of what I need to do. DH and I also sit down weekly to discuss the upcoming week and who is doing what when (dinner, taking DS to practice, etc).

My lists are pretty much the only way I'm able to function. I put EVERYTHING on there, even just emptying the dishwasher.

+1

I know it’s not fair to my spouse, but I make it clear that I absolutely need them to TELL me what to do, and then I will do it. It’s not fun for me either and I am trying my best. I hope my spouse doesn’t resent me!

You…hope your spouse doesn’t resent you for knowingly treating them unfairly? That’s not ADHD that’s delusional.

There are about 100 ways you can manage executive function without expecting your spouse to do it for you.

Yes I hope my spouse doesn’t resent me for not being as capable in as many ways as they are. They certainly don’t seem to. I put forth a good faith effort every day and do what I can, but I still struggle. And I am trying all sorts of strategies to manage my mental health issues, but in the meantime my spouse actually tries to HELP ME. But, my spouse is not a petty scorekeeper like so many of the folks posting their complaints here.

I wonder if some of you would treat your kids this way. Do you think there is some magic age where all mental health issues disappear, or are suddenly no longer issues that people struggle with or suffer from, but are instead now conscious choices to be lazy and worthless? And do you know what’s ALSO exhausting? Having a mental health issue! Maybe try a little compassion?

Do you see how silly the comparison is to a child?

No. I do not. That’s because I am not aware of an age at which mental health disorders magically disappear.

I am simply saying that if you wouldn’t talk about your child with a mental health disorder this way you shouldn’t talk about your spouse with the exact same disorder this way.

You are responsible for your child’s health. Your spouse is responsible for your spouse’s health. It is gross and infantalizing to assume you should speak of an adult not managing their ADHD like they are a child.

I think you (and PP who responded ip thread) just fundamentally can’t read or are completely lacking in the ability to comprehend what you read. I am not comparing adults and children in terms of their life responsibilities or their need to be cared for. I am comparing them in terms of their mental health disorders. And I am not advocating that anyone should remain married to or manage their spouse who struggles, I am merely suggesting that they stop trying to make it out to be some sort of moral failing on their spouse’s part. It’s an illness. That doesn’t mean you have to choose to live with someone who has such an illness, but the absolute venom with which people describe their spouses is appalling. So I will repeat: if you would not TALK ABOUT your child this way, do not TALK ABOUT your spouse this way.

Again, a child’s health is my responsibility. So if that health condition isn’t managed, it is my responsibility to address that fact.

If an adult is not managing their health concern, that is their own responsibility. An adult not treating their ADHD and availing themselves of the now thousands of coaches, apps, therapies etc. who is instead making their spouse carry their weight is selfish, entitled, and yes, morally wrong.

A child whose ADHD isn’t treated isn’t being parented well.

The reason we don’t talk about them the same is that the individual responsible isn’t the same.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Thanks to OP and others who have shared for giving me some solace in a week when I was feeling a little bit sorry for my spinster childless self.

I got very close to marriage a few times, and in the comfort of cohabitation I saw the red flags of how many men behave once a woman moves in and is 'secured' as partner. Sadly even in 2020s we have many men - including many young men, because this pattern gets perpetuated from one generation to another by sons watching their mothers do the bulk of housekeeping and childcare and growing up to expect the same from a partner - who simply don't pull their weight. These men act like entitled teenagers in their marriages and then wonder why the spark dies and the wife wants nothing to do with them sexually. Resentment breeds on both sides and thus we have high rates of divorce and high rates of dissatisfaction in marriages that do stay intact including high rates of infidelity.

I just saw an article about the anniversary of the women's strike in Iceland, and how women there are still complaining about inequality and misogyny. Someday we women have to figure out how to change this, because quite obviously men on the whole will never be motivated to change a status quo which so richly feeds their egos and enriches their lives. Some men are feminists, some men get it and some even step up and try to live in their marriages or other relationships as equitable investors in the work of keeping a home and family. But the large majority are not stepping up and are happy to have all the free time they gain from the labor of their wives and girlfriends.

Agreed. I am in a long-term marriage where we both earn about the same amount, have no kids by choice, and we both pull our weight and support each other. And we truly enjoy each other's company and contributions to our shared life. Why, in the discussions about 'having it all' being an impossible situation for women, is there not more discussion around not having kids? It seems to me that many of these entitled men who don't pull their weight are banking on the fact that the wife will have no choice to step up because it's unfair to subject children to the lowest common standards for diet, cleanliness, structure, etc. Without kids in the equation that leverage is gone.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:op - I will give an example. Today I was on calls from 8a until 7p and then had to work until 9p. During this time our kid had a friend over and he was drinking beer with the friend's dad. when i finished my work I asked him to book this flight (a very specific flight that just involved the act of booking) that we needed for me so I could relax and it ended up in a huge fight and he stormed out. I find it really hard to get past the idea that if you see the person you are married to working for THIRTEEN HOURS (and I should stress I was working on something relating to the Israel/ Gaza conflict that was extremely high stress with as you can imagine many feelings) then if that person says can you take this thing off my plate then surely just say yes? Like - you really want to sit there watching tv while I do it? Something is very wrong there it feels like.

8am to 7pm would be 11 hours.

[Anonymous]

I am fortunate in that my DH is a very organized and equal partner. He does at least 50 percent of everything, and is an amazing cook. He makes about 55 percent of our income.

However, our son (age 20) has ADHD, and I pray for his future wife. I know our son just cannot do so many of the things that my DH automatically does. So I hope to be able to pay for a weekly house cleaner for them, as well as helping them with a down payment on the house. I will try to support them in whatever way possible.

Forgive me if this has already been suggested, but can you hire outside help to make things any easier for you? Is there a family member who could come in and help with some things?

Or perhaps try the Serenity Prayer? (I use this a lot in my life, and find it pretty helpful.)

I'm sure others have suggested this, but keep in mind that the person with ADHD often feels pretty bad that they are not doing more. So I'm sure that it's a challenge to be sympathetic to your DH, but my guess is that he feels pretty bad. Perhaps just don't be too hard on him?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thanks to OP and others who have shared for giving me some solace in a week when I was feeling a little bit sorry for my spinster childless self.

I got very close to marriage a few times, and in the comfort of cohabitation I saw the red flags of how many men behave once a woman moves in and is 'secured' as partner. Sadly even in 2020s we have many men - including many young men, because this pattern gets perpetuated from one generation to another by sons watching their mothers do the bulk of housekeeping and childcare and growing up to expect the same from a partner - who simply don't pull their weight. These men act like entitled teenagers in their marriages and then wonder why the spark dies and the wife wants nothing to do with them sexually. Resentment breeds on both sides and thus we have high rates of divorce and high rates of dissatisfaction in marriages that do stay intact including high rates of infidelity.

I just saw an article about the anniversary of the women's strike in Iceland, and how women there are still complaining about inequality and misogyny. Someday we women have to figure out how to change this, because quite obviously men on the whole will never be motivated to change a status quo which so richly feeds their egos and enriches their lives. Some men are feminists, some men get it and some even step up and try to live in their marriages or other relationships as equitable investors in the work of keeping a home and family. But the large majority are not stepping up and are happy to have all the free time they gain from the labor of their wives and girlfriends.

Agreed. I am in a long-term marriage where we both earn about the same amount, have no kids by choice, and we both pull our weight and support each other. And we truly enjoy each other's company and contributions to our shared life. Why, in the discussions about 'having it all' being an impossible situation for women, is there not more discussion around not having kids? It seems to me that many of these entitled men who don't pull their weight are banking on the fact that the wife will have no choice to step up because it's unfair to subject children to the lowest common standards for diet, cleanliness, structure, etc. Without kids in the equation that leverage is gone.

I am really happy for you and the life you've created for yourself, but for me -- I just really wanted kids. Actually, I stopped at one specifically because of the issues that arose with inequity in the household and also just society generally (no matter who we put down first as the point of contact for our kid, the daycares/school/activity will always call me directly and never my DH, it is infuriating). But for me, not being a parent would have been a huge loss. It's just not the life I wanted for myself. I also have a career and am reasonably successful, but I've never been passionate about it the way I am about parenting.

To be honest, this fact does actually help me to accept some of the unequal division of labor, because if I wanted to have kids, since I didn't find one of those unicorn DHs who happily takes on half of the labor at home, this was how it was going to be. I had a kid later in life and this really was my "one shot." But it's still frustrating because it's not like my DH didn't want to be a dad or I tricked him into it -- he was 100% on board and often says that being a parent is the most important thing in his life. Yet he STILL pulls a lot of the behavior discussed on this thread, from just ignoring tasks until they get so bad I have to do them, to feigned incompetence, to acting like I just have impossibly high standards because I think our kid's hair should be brushed before she leaves the house in the morning. He can really act like a child sometimes (and no, it's not ADHD -- it's entitlement and laziness).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am fortunate in that my DH is a very organized and equal partner. He does at least 50 percent of everything, and is an amazing cook. He makes about 55 percent of our income.

However, our son (age 20) has ADHD, and I pray for his future wife. I know our son just cannot do so many of the things that my DH automatically does. So I hope to be able to pay for a weekly house cleaner for them, as well as helping them with a down payment on the house. I will try to support them in whatever way possible.

Forgive me if this has already been suggested, but can you hire outside help to make things any easier for you? Is there a family member who could come in and help with some things?

Or perhaps try the Serenity Prayer? (I use this a lot in my life, and find it pretty helpful.)

I'm sure others have suggested this, but keep in mind that the person with ADHD often feels pretty bad that they are not doing more. So I'm sure that it's a challenge to be sympathetic to your DH, but my guess is that he feels pretty bad. Perhaps just don't be too hard on him?

I understand. I have a daughter and husband with it and have my concerns about the future.

My spouse does not feel pretty bad. Whatever happened to him over the decades he has a hard, narcissistic shell to cope with his ASD/ADD. And now have a name for everything that increasingly happened since having kids and him being formally diagnosed.

[Anonymous]

Kindness is everything, including from the ADHD person apologizing and managing their symptoms.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My marriage had been really tainted by the inequity in our workload. Dh has adhd. Likely in large part because of this, I do the lions share of everything. I make about 4x the salary, work much much harder; and have to remember almost all of the kid and household admin. It’s not that he *wont* do it but it’s sort of positioned as that he *cannot* do as much as me and therefore would just - if left to own devices - let many many many things slide (clean clothes/ kids shower/ kids eat any vegetables/ submit mandatory forms to school/ buy birthday presents for other kids parties etc etc). I sit there every night working and doing admin till I go to bed basically while he unwinds. I do not want to share time with kids and I know the dcum party line is don’t divorce unless it’s awful. And he does have in theory many good qualities. But the inequity in our relationship is just bananas. I have addressed it all I can and this is the best it’s going to get. Is there any solution?

How old are your kids?

Can you hire more help? Sounds like maybe someone to deliver premade meals could help. An accountant to do your finances? Tutors to help kids with hw?

I think the only solution is to program him to do more simple tasks. I’m sorry, but if he can follow a list he should be able to do showers for the kids, dishes, wipe counters, trash, run loads of laundry and fold, pack lunches, etc. Sit him down and say I’m working for hours after work and I need you to help me with XYZ so I can have time to wind down also.

TeuxDeux is a good app with a list that you can program to have daily repeatable items. Maybe you can even share an account and add things to it.

Try to simplify your life as much as possible. Buy multiples of one or two kinds of birthday presents and a pack of ten bags. Do some of the kid admin on your lunch break.

Did someone actually think that "deux" is pronounced "do?" That's pretty embarrassing.

That’s pretty similar to how it sounds in French (like un, deux, trois), what are you talking about?

No it's not.

Because it’s… ? No English word really rhymes with the French “deux” but “do” is the closest.

So why not name the app “To Do?” Just because it’s in “French” doesn’t make your partner less of a shit partner, if you have to use stupid apps like that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My marriage had been really tainted by the inequity in our workload. Dh has adhd. Likely in large part because of this, I do the lions share of everything. I make about 4x the salary, work much much harder; and have to remember almost all of the kid and household admin. It’s not that he *wont* do it but it’s sort of positioned as that he *cannot* do as much as me and therefore would just - if left to own devices - let many many many things slide (clean clothes/ kids shower/ kids eat any vegetables/ submit mandatory forms to school/ buy birthday presents for other kids parties etc etc). I sit there every night working and doing admin till I go to bed basically while he unwinds. I do not want to share time with kids and I know the dcum party line is don’t divorce unless it’s awful. And he does have in theory many good qualities. But the inequity in our relationship is just bananas. I have addressed it all I can and this is the best it’s going to get. Is there any solution?

How old are your kids?

Can you hire more help? Sounds like maybe someone to deliver premade meals could help. An accountant to do your finances? Tutors to help kids with hw?

I think the only solution is to program him to do more simple tasks. I’m sorry, but if he can follow a list he should be able to do showers for the kids, dishes, wipe counters, trash, run loads of laundry and fold, pack lunches, etc. Sit him down and say I’m working for hours after work and I need you to help me with XYZ so I can have time to wind down also.

TeuxDeux is a good app with a list that you can program to have daily repeatable items. Maybe you can even share an account and add things to it.

Try to simplify your life as much as possible. Buy multiples of one or two kinds of birthday presents and a pack of ten bags. Do some of the kid admin on your lunch break.

Did someone actually think that "deux" is pronounced "do?" That's pretty embarrassing.

That’s pretty similar to how it sounds in French (like un, deux, trois), what are you talking about?

No it's not.

Are you from Louisiana and think the French would pronounce it like “toe doe”? Bahhahaha talk about embarrassing! You’re lucky this is anon.

No, sweetheart, it’s not pronounced “do” or “doe.” Tell me you don’t speak French without telling me you don’t speak French. I think you’re the one who’s lucky this is anon.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If you two sat down together each day and divided what needed to be done, would he be able to do it?

I'm the ADHD spouse and I make myself daily lists of what I need to do. DH and I also sit down weekly to discuss the upcoming week and who is doing what when (dinner, taking DS to practice, etc).

My lists are pretty much the only way I'm able to function. I put EVERYTHING on there, even just emptying the dishwasher.

Can you have a chart of tasks ? Like you might for a kid with ADHD?

Has he tried an executive function coach?

I am sorry.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:op - I will give an example. Today I was on calls from 8a until 7p and then had to work until 9p. During this time our kid had a friend over and he was drinking beer with the friend's dad. when i finished my work I asked him to book this flight (a very specific flight that just involved the act of booking) that we needed for me so I could relax and it ended up in a huge fight and he stormed out. I find it really hard to get past the idea that if you see the person you are married to working for THIRTEEN HOURS (and I should stress I was working on something relating to the Israel/ Gaza conflict that was extremely high stress with as you can imagine many feelings) then if that person says can you take this thing off my plate then surely just say yes? Like - you really want to sit there watching tv while I do it? Something is very wrong there it feels like.

8am to 7pm would be 11 hours.

Not OP. Your comment was unnecessary and also wrong. She was on calls from 8am to 7pm (11 hrs) and then working further until 9pm (2 hrs). 11 + 2 = 13.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My marriage had been really tainted by the inequity in our workload. Dh has adhd. Likely in large part because of this, I do the lions share of everything. I make about 4x the salary, work much much harder; and have to remember almost all of the kid and household admin. It’s not that he *wont* do it but it’s sort of positioned as that he *cannot* do as much as me and therefore would just - if left to own devices - let many many many things slide (clean clothes/ kids shower/ kids eat any vegetables/ submit mandatory forms to school/ buy birthday presents for other kids parties etc etc). I sit there every night working and doing admin till I go to bed basically while he unwinds. I do not want to share time with kids and I know the dcum party line is don’t divorce unless it’s awful. And he does have in theory many good qualities. But the inequity in our relationship is just bananas. I have addressed it all I can and this is the best it’s going to get. Is there any solution?

How old are your kids?

Can you hire more help? Sounds like maybe someone to deliver premade meals could help. An accountant to do your finances? Tutors to help kids with hw?

I think the only solution is to program him to do more simple tasks. I’m sorry, but if he can follow a list he should be able to do showers for the kids, dishes, wipe counters, trash, run loads of laundry and fold, pack lunches, etc. Sit him down and say I’m working for hours after work and I need you to help me with XYZ so I can have time to wind down also.

TeuxDeux is a good app with a list that you can program to have daily repeatable items. Maybe you can even share an account and add things to it.

Try to simplify your life as much as possible. Buy multiples of one or two kinds of birthday presents and a pack of ten bags. Do some of the kid admin on your lunch break.

Did someone actually think that "deux" is pronounced "do?" That's pretty embarrassing.

That’s pretty similar to how it sounds in French (like un, deux, trois), what are you talking about?

No it's not.

Are you from Louisiana and think the French would pronounce it like “toe doe”? Bahhahaha talk about embarrassing! You’re lucky this is anon.

No, sweetheart, it’s not pronounced “do” or “doe.” Tell me you don’t speak French without telling me you don’t speak French. I think you’re the one who’s lucky this is anon.

as stated it is “pretty similar” to “do.”

[Anonymous]

OP’s scenario seems so common. It makes me think that there really is a reason why traditional gender roles have persisted. More women care about the details of parenting and running a household, and more men care about just doing their jobs and coming home to relax.

But in cases where the woman also chooses to work, that doesn’t necessarily mean that the man chooses to do 50% of the house/kid stuff. So it all falls to her. Women demanded the right to earn a living, but men never demanded to do laundry and mop floors - that kind of got implicitly foisted on them. It’s a tough dynamic.

(And I’m a mom who works 60 hours a week, with a husband who does almost 50% of the parenting/stuff around the house, so I’m not in the majority I’m talking about).