No, test optional isn’t the reason your kid didn’t get in.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Read this 2019 article from the NYT? Sound familiar?

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/30/magazine/almost-all-the-colleges-i-wanted-to-go-to-rejected-me-now-what.html?smtyp=cur&smid=fb-nytimes&fbclid=IwAR33p-Nhl1mO5BSmjk461YIxU1iqqvLZ5moObJWGaE2-iV7bm-csPn0xEFU&mibextid=Zxz2cZ

Kids have been getting rejected from Uber-competitor schools for a very long time. This was pre-COVID, pre-TO.

I realize there is an impulse to look for something to blame if your kid is rejected from their dream school or most of their targets. But it’s important to remember that your kid is the common denominator (especially with multiple rejections). There is obviously something deficient in the application for the kinds of schools targeted — maybe the essay is bad, maybe you didn’t take enough foreign language, maybe the ECs are spread too thin and don’t demonstrate passion and commitment over time?

What impressed me about the letter writer in the article was he seems to recognizes that instead of casting blame on others. At least there’s some acknowledgment he’s dealing with a bruised ego. That said, his attitude about the schools he did get into leaves a lot to be desired.

I feel bad for kids who faced a lot of rejection this year. But telling them it’s because test optional let lesser kids sneak in and steal their birthright admission isn’t helping them deal with reality. Learn to make the best of the opportunities you ARE given.

Well, these sermons about learning to deal with the harsh realities of college admissions is of little help to students who spent years of high school chasing an unattainable goal. Not because they didn't study enough or didn't give their best to their community, their extracurriculars and their internships but because they are from unwanted financial class, race, geography or whatever.

That is your fault as a parent if you made them think T25 is an "attainable goal" for anyone. They have always been a reach for everyone, save a well hooked student (think parent is a celebrity or presidents or bill gates, etc).
A well raised kid will grow up knowing you work hard in school to learn, do well and aim high, but also know their life is not over if they only get into school ranked #32.

Amen! So many entitled people on this thread.

This is the dumbest s**t, I have ever heard. You wouldn't dare say this to an URM or woman trying to get a coveted spot anywhere and coming up short and then venting. Everybody has the right to expect that if they work hard and play by the rules, they will get their reward in a country that is fair. Instead the universities play by twisted rules that are never made transparent and jerk people along. People are not entitled for expecting fair treatment, the Universities are evil for not being transparent about their admission policies.

Why don't HYPMS, make all their committee decisions and scores public after redacting personally identifying information. Why don't they release application and admit rates by race, score, GPA, legacy status etc every year so that people can clearly see what their real chances are.

Don't you dare call people entitled. If admissions were fair, everybody would know their chances very well as the would be enough data to make a very good guess. Instead these universities exploit applicants. They are the evil side here. Blame them

+100

If they just want to do whatever they want to do, they should pay all the taxes, and not a single tax payers penny should go there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Read this 2019 article from the NYT? Sound familiar?

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/30/magazine/almost-all-the-colleges-i-wanted-to-go-to-rejected-me-now-what.html?smtyp=cur&smid=fb-nytimes&fbclid=IwAR33p-Nhl1mO5BSmjk461YIxU1iqqvLZ5moObJWGaE2-iV7bm-csPn0xEFU&mibextid=Zxz2cZ

Kids have been getting rejected from Uber-competitor schools for a very long time. This was pre-COVID, pre-TO.

I realize there is an impulse to look for something to blame if your kid is rejected from their dream school or most of their targets. But it’s important to remember that your kid is the common denominator (especially with multiple rejections). There is obviously something deficient in the application for the kinds of schools targeted — maybe the essay is bad, maybe you didn’t take enough foreign language, maybe the ECs are spread too thin and don’t demonstrate passion and commitment over time?

What impressed me about the letter writer in the article was he seems to recognizes that instead of casting blame on others. At least there’s some acknowledgment he’s dealing with a bruised ego. That said, his attitude about the schools he did get into leaves a lot to be desired.

I feel bad for kids who faced a lot of rejection this year. But telling them it’s because test optional let lesser kids sneak in and steal their birthright admission isn’t helping them deal with reality. Learn to make the best of the opportunities you ARE given.

Well, these sermons about learning to deal with the harsh realities of college admissions is of little help to students who spent years of high school chasing an unattainable goal. Not because they didn't study enough or didn't give their best to their community, their extracurriculars and their internships but because they are from unwanted financial class, race, geography or whatever.

That is your fault as a parent if you made them think T25 is an "attainable goal" for anyone. They have always been a reach for everyone, save a well hooked student (think parent is a celebrity or presidents or bill gates, etc).
A well raised kid will grow up knowing you work hard in school to learn, do well and aim high, but also know their life is not over if they only get into school ranked #32.

Amen! So many entitled people on this thread.

This is the dumbest s**t, I have ever heard. You wouldn't dare say this to an URM or woman trying to get a coveted spot anywhere and coming up short and then venting. Everybody has the right to expect that if they work hard and play by the rules, they will get their reward in a country that is fair. Instead the universities play by twisted rules that are never made transparent and jerk people along. People are not entitled for expecting fair treatment, the Universities are evil for not being transparent about their admission policies.

Why don't HYPMS, make all their committee decisions and scores public after redacting personally identifying information. Why don't they release application and admit rates by race, score, GPA, legacy status etc every year so that people can clearly see what their real chances are.

Don't you dare call people entitled. If admissions were fair, everybody would know their chances very well as the would be enough data to make a very good guess. Instead these universities exploit applicants. They are the evil side here. Blame them

+100

If they just want to do whatever they want to do, they should pay all the taxes, and not a single tax payers penny should go there.

Do you insist on the same at your church or your country club? Or any other tax exempt organization, like clubs, political organizations, and others?

And then we vote on everything that every organization gets to do because our opinions differ, of course.

The tax canard is just so stupid. You should stop using it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Read this 2019 article from the NYT? Sound familiar?

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/30/magazine/almost-all-the-colleges-i-wanted-to-go-to-rejected-me-now-what.html?smtyp=cur&smid=fb-nytimes&fbclid=IwAR33p-Nhl1mO5BSmjk461YIxU1iqqvLZ5moObJWGaE2-iV7bm-csPn0xEFU&mibextid=Zxz2cZ

Kids have been getting rejected from Uber-competitor schools for a very long time. This was pre-COVID, pre-TO.

I realize there is an impulse to look for something to blame if your kid is rejected from their dream school or most of their targets. But it’s important to remember that your kid is the common denominator (especially with multiple rejections). There is obviously something deficient in the application for the kinds of schools targeted — maybe the essay is bad, maybe you didn’t take enough foreign language, maybe the ECs are spread too thin and don’t demonstrate passion and commitment over time?

What impressed me about the letter writer in the article was he seems to recognizes that instead of casting blame on others. At least there’s some acknowledgment he’s dealing with a bruised ego. That said, his attitude about the schools he did get into leaves a lot to be desired.

I feel bad for kids who faced a lot of rejection this year. But telling them it’s because test optional let lesser kids sneak in and steal their birthright admission isn’t helping them deal with reality. Learn to make the best of the opportunities you ARE given.

Well, these sermons about learning to deal with the harsh realities of college admissions is of little help to students who spent years of high school chasing an unattainable goal. Not because they didn't study enough or didn't give their best to their community, their extracurriculars and their internships but because they are from unwanted financial class, race, geography or whatever.

That is your fault as a parent if you made them think T25 is an "attainable goal" for anyone. They have always been a reach for everyone, save a well hooked student (think parent is a celebrity or presidents or bill gates, etc).
A well raised kid will grow up knowing you work hard in school to learn, do well and aim high, but also know their life is not over if they only get into school ranked #32.

Amen! So many entitled people on this thread.

This is the dumbest s**t, I have ever heard. You wouldn't dare say this to an URM or woman trying to get a coveted spot anywhere and coming up short and then venting. Everybody has the right to expect that if they work hard and play by the rules, they will get their reward in a country that is fair. Instead the universities play by twisted rules that are never made transparent and jerk people along. People are not entitled for expecting fair treatment, the Universities are evil for not being transparent about their admission policies.

Why don't HYPMS, make all their committee decisions and scores public after redacting personally identifying information. Why don't they release application and admit rates by race, score, GPA, legacy status etc every year so that people can clearly see what their real chances are.

Don't you dare call people entitled. If admissions were fair, everybody would know their chances very well as the would be enough data to make a very good guess. Instead these universities exploit applicants. They are the evil side here. Blame them

+100

If they just want to do whatever they want to do, they should pay all the taxes, and not a single tax payers penny should go there.

Do you insist on the same at your church or your country club? Or any other tax exempt organization, like clubs, political organizations, and others?

And then we vote on everything that every organization gets to do because our opinions differ, of course.

The tax canard is just so stupid. You should stop using it.

None of these organizations are as bad as colleges.
Therefore there are two major law suits currently going on with the college - antitrust and discrimination
They are force to comply since they don't want to lose the benefits.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is my take on this issue: You have two cooks.

Cook #1 is given the best ingredients, fresh, local, expensive, top notch. This chef cooks an amazing meal in a state of the art kitchen with a lot of assistants.
Cook #2 is given poor quality ingredients in a run down kitchen, but still manages to prepare an amazing meal all by themselves.

Who would you hire?

I would give cook #2 a bonus point if they produce really the same quality result.

However, Cook #1 usually produces better in reality.

Oh, therefore I'll likely hire #1 for my fancy Michelin restaurant.

#2 will still be great and successful at a little lower grade restaurant.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Good kids are getting rejected from top schools, because top schools no longer care about academic excellence as much as they care about "Diversity"
There are very few students who meet ALL of the following criteria
1) Top 1-3% of graduating class
2) 1550 in SATor 35 ACT or higher in test scores
3) National AP scholar.
4) 750 or higher in 2 Subject Tests

These are truly gifted students. All of them could easily be accommodated in the top 15 schools, many times over, but most don't get in, because top schools are obsessed with diversity.

This is a tragedy for this country in the long run, because as any economist will tell you, we are grossly misallocating some of the best resources of our academic institutions on some very questionable talent, instead of focusing them on talent that can benefit the most from them and consequently turbocharge the US economy into the next generation.

But eh. Becoming fat, dumb and careless is probably necessary for the baton to pass from the US to some other nation. That's the way history has worked

Well, sure. How boring to have a bunch of 1559 SAT stressed out robots.

Using your 1% guidelines would leave out certain kids on the spectrum, adhd kids, kids with dyscalculia and dyslexia. That would be short sighted of the school to do.

And that would also leave out a nationally known teen spokesperson who “only” got a 1340 but has done more to change society than the 5.0 1600 kid.

Nah. This is not bad for society. Some horrible people have easily paid their way into those schools and brought their toxic values into society while decrying the “elite” despite attending two elite schools themselves.

Go to a school. Do well. You can still become a Senator and improve the world.

What’s the bottom third of the Harvard class of 2019 doing, I wonder?

How does it leave of such kids? Schools don't factor that into their admissions process (Ask me how I know), unless of course you are the right kind of color, orientation, etc.

"Go to a school. Do well. You can still become a Senator and improve the world." Why doesn't this apply to folks who are clearly not academically qualified but get into elite schools on 'other' considerations? Why don't you share your wisdom with them? I'd love to watch how that goes down.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Read this 2019 article from the NYT? Sound familiar?

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/30/magazine/almost-all-the-colleges-i-wanted-to-go-to-rejected-me-now-what.html?smtyp=cur&smid=fb-nytimes&fbclid=IwAR33p-Nhl1mO5BSmjk461YIxU1iqqvLZ5moObJWGaE2-iV7bm-csPn0xEFU&mibextid=Zxz2cZ

Kids have been getting rejected from Uber-competitor schools for a very long time. This was pre-COVID, pre-TO.

I realize there is an impulse to look for something to blame if your kid is rejected from their dream school or most of their targets. But it’s important to remember that your kid is the common denominator (especially with multiple rejections). There is obviously something deficient in the application for the kinds of schools targeted — maybe the essay is bad, maybe you didn’t take enough foreign language, maybe the ECs are spread too thin and don’t demonstrate passion and commitment over time?

What impressed me about the letter writer in the article was he seems to recognizes that instead of casting blame on others. At least there’s some acknowledgment he’s dealing with a bruised ego. That said, his attitude about the schools he did get into leaves a lot to be desired.

I feel bad for kids who faced a lot of rejection this year. But telling them it’s because test optional let lesser kids sneak in and steal their birthright admission isn’t helping them deal with reality. Learn to make the best of the opportunities you ARE given.

Well, these sermons about learning to deal with the harsh realities of college admissions is of little help to students who spent years of high school chasing an unattainable goal. Not because they didn't study enough or didn't give their best to their community, their extracurriculars and their internships but because they are from unwanted financial class, race, geography or whatever.

That is your fault as a parent if you made them think T25 is an "attainable goal" for anyone. They have always been a reach for everyone, save a well hooked student (think parent is a celebrity or presidents or bill gates, etc).
A well raised kid will grow up knowing you work hard in school to learn, do well and aim high, but also know their life is not over if they only get into school ranked #32.

Amen! So many entitled people on this thread.

So.. kids who put in the hard work for years and are clearly academically qualified to attend an elite academic institution are entitled but someone with lower academic pedigree is not? What are on? Moron juice?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Read this 2019 article from the NYT? Sound familiar?

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/30/magazine/almost-all-the-colleges-i-wanted-to-go-to-rejected-me-now-what.html?smtyp=cur&smid=fb-nytimes&fbclid=IwAR33p-Nhl1mO5BSmjk461YIxU1iqqvLZ5moObJWGaE2-iV7bm-csPn0xEFU&mibextid=Zxz2cZ

Kids have been getting rejected from Uber-competitor schools for a very long time. This was pre-COVID, pre-TO.

I realize there is an impulse to look for something to blame if your kid is rejected from their dream school or most of their targets. But it’s important to remember that your kid is the common denominator (especially with multiple rejections). There is obviously something deficient in the application for the kinds of schools targeted — maybe the essay is bad, maybe you didn’t take enough foreign language, maybe the ECs are spread too thin and don’t demonstrate passion and commitment over time?

What impressed me about the letter writer in the article was he seems to recognizes that instead of casting blame on others. At least there’s some acknowledgment he’s dealing with a bruised ego. That said, his attitude about the schools he did get into leaves a lot to be desired.

I feel bad for kids who faced a lot of rejection this year. But telling them it’s because test optional let lesser kids sneak in and steal their birthright admission isn’t helping them deal with reality. Learn to make the best of the opportunities you ARE given.

Well, these sermons about learning to deal with the harsh realities of college admissions is of little help to students who spent years of high school chasing an unattainable goal. Not because they didn't study enough or didn't give their best to their community, their extracurriculars and their internships but because they are from unwanted financial class, race, geography or whatever.

That is your fault as a parent if you made them think T25 is an "attainable goal" for anyone. They have always been a reach for everyone, save a well hooked student (think parent is a celebrity or presidents or bill gates, etc).
A well raised kid will grow up knowing you work hard in school to learn, do well and aim high, but also know their life is not over if they only get into school ranked #32.

Amen! So many entitled people on this thread.

This is the dumbest s**t, I have ever heard. You wouldn't dare say this to an URM or woman trying to get a coveted spot anywhere and coming up short and then venting. Everybody has the right to expect that if they work hard and play by the rules, they will get their reward in a country that is fair. Instead the universities play by twisted rules that are never made transparent and jerk people along. People are not entitled for expecting fair treatment, the Universities are evil for not being transparent about their admission policies.

Why don't HYPMS, make all their committee decisions and scores public after redacting personally identifying information. Why don't they release application and admit rates by race, score, GPA, legacy status etc every year so that people can clearly see what their real chances are.

Don't you dare call people entitled. If admissions were fair, everybody would know their chances very well as the would be enough data to make a very good guess. Instead these universities exploit applicants. They are the evil side here. Blame them

You do realize you are advocating for socialism, right?
There are no guarantees of fair in our society, and what is fair is very hard to define. Is it fair that one student has had enrichment from early on? Or that the best musicians had parents who got them lessons, masterclasses and required them to practice 3 hours/day from age 8 up? Is it fair that a student has 2 parents w/ graduate degrees to help them navigate academics? Every student is different and brings different skills/ideas to the table in conjunction w/ his/her resources.
This whole notion of fairness is whack. You seem to think URM kids have some great advantage and ready to throw them all under the bus. Most admissions to top colleges are white and Asian. Many parents like you thought there was some formula for success, and if Jr. just ticked all the boxes, top admission is guaranteed. But, that's just not how it works. Colleges value various types of merits, not just the ones you value. Also, there isn't really a "system." Colleges all have their own priorities. You'll need to move to a socialist country for a system. Enjoy that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Test-optional adds to the uncertainty and STRESS.

This is the end result. People are not as confident they will get in, and therefore second-guess themselves, agonize and apply to more schools, which creates more work and more stress for everyone.

And as a poster said above, there aren't more seats in college. It is a zero sum game. Admissions officers taking a chance on a test-optional student WILL have to reject an academically qualified high stats student for that option!

So I disagree with the dismissive posters above regarding test-optional. Test-optional is actually the reason some students are not accepted. Literally.

Now yield protection is different: you can bypass that by demonstrating interest, and customizing your essay to make sure the college knows it isn't just a last recourse. All colleges want is a little courtesy in that regard, even though looking at stats, they are well aware they won't be the first choice. But again, customizing essays, visits and interviews are adding STRESS to the process.

So all this atmosphere leads to more stress than previously. This is not healthy or acceptable. No other country does college admissions this way, and the USA should not either!!!

I hear you, but students who are excellent students but don't test well are burdened with far more stress if tests aren't optional. Why can't they be allowed to put their best foot forward with awards, achievements, APs and other indices? As someone who teaches SAT test prep, I am bothered that people place too much emphasis on SAT in relation to merit.

We need to expand our definitions of top schools rather than hoard spaces for kids who are able to perform well on SAT.

No such thing. That’s called grade inflation.

BS---test anxiety is a real thing. Given that rarely (or rather never for most people) have I been required to take a test in the real world, never required to do a project without ability to look things up or work with anyone else if I have questions, why is how someone can do on an individual test so important to you?

Always wondered how 'test anxiety' crops up for the SATs but never for the multiple mid-terms, final exams and APs.. Someone care to explain this?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Read this 2019 article from the NYT? Sound familiar?

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/30/magazine/almost-all-the-colleges-i-wanted-to-go-to-rejected-me-now-what.html?smtyp=cur&smid=fb-nytimes&fbclid=IwAR33p-Nhl1mO5BSmjk461YIxU1iqqvLZ5moObJWGaE2-iV7bm-csPn0xEFU&mibextid=Zxz2cZ

Kids have been getting rejected from Uber-competitor schools for a very long time. This was pre-COVID, pre-TO.

I realize there is an impulse to look for something to blame if your kid is rejected from their dream school or most of their targets. But it’s important to remember that your kid is the common denominator (especially with multiple rejections). There is obviously something deficient in the application for the kinds of schools targeted — maybe the essay is bad, maybe you didn’t take enough foreign language, maybe the ECs are spread too thin and don’t demonstrate passion and commitment over time?

What impressed me about the letter writer in the article was he seems to recognizes that instead of casting blame on others. At least there’s some acknowledgment he’s dealing with a bruised ego. That said, his attitude about the schools he did get into leaves a lot to be desired.

I feel bad for kids who faced a lot of rejection this year. But telling them it’s because test optional let lesser kids sneak in and steal their birthright admission isn’t helping them deal with reality. Learn to make the best of the opportunities you ARE given.

Well, these sermons about learning to deal with the harsh realities of college admissions is of little help to students who spent years of high school chasing an unattainable goal. Not because they didn't study enough or didn't give their best to their community, their extracurriculars and their internships but because they are from unwanted financial class, race, geography or whatever.

That is your fault as a parent if you made them think T25 is an "attainable goal" for anyone. They have always been a reach for everyone, save a well hooked student (think parent is a celebrity or presidents or bill gates, etc).
A well raised kid will grow up knowing you work hard in school to learn, do well and aim high, but also know their life is not over if they only get into school ranked #32.

Amen! So many entitled people on this thread.

This is the dumbest s**t, I have ever heard. You wouldn't dare say this to an URM or woman trying to get a coveted spot anywhere and coming up short and then venting. Everybody has the right to expect that if they work hard and play by the rules, they will get their reward in a country that is fair. Instead the universities play by twisted rules that are never made transparent and jerk people along. People are not entitled for expecting fair treatment, the Universities are evil for not being transparent about their admission policies.

Why don't HYPMS, make all their committee decisions and scores public after redacting personally identifying information. Why don't they release application and admit rates by race, score, GPA, legacy status etc every year so that people can clearly see what their real chances are.

Don't you dare call people entitled. If admissions were fair, everybody would know their chances very well as the would be enough data to make a very good guess. Instead these universities exploit applicants. They are the evil side here. Blame them

It is fair---however there are more "qualified" students than spaces in the T25 schools. And yes, your kid with a 1580/3.9UW is not really that much different than a 1500/3.85UW student. There in lies the issue you have---you think the test and gpa is the be all end all. It's not. 1500 is 98%, 1580 is 99%+. Statistically there is no real difference. You are upset your kid isn't getting into a school with single digit acceptance rates where 95% of the kids are qualified. Look at Harvard CDS from 2019. 83% of verbal and 90% of Math scores were over 700. The 25% overall was 1460 and 75% was 1570. So they are taking kids with 96%+ largely. Statistically the same---the differences are miniscule in the grand scheme. 93% had a 3.75+UW gpa. Once again, all really smart kids considering they are using UW and that includes kids from elite private schools where a 3.5 is often very good, plus even in public schools a kid taking 12 APs might get a few Bs in those Ap courses (but good they are taking the rigor). So show me why Harvard is taking kids who are not qualified?

Nowhere is it written that you are entitled to a T25 education if you get a 4.0 UW and 1580+ If you have been telling your kids this you are doing them a disservice. They are taking very smart kids---just using a bit more than test scores to determine their definition of "smart". Harvard does not take kids they think will NOT survive at Harvard. You just think your kid is better than a first gen kid from rural America who only has a 3.8 UW gpa but has worked thru many other obstacles to get to where they are vs your kid who has had evertyingn handed to them on a silver platter. In reality, that kid might actually be smarter than yours. Either way, Harvard wants them as part of their class and not your kid. They are turning away many highly qualified students---most of whom have the abilties to go on and do great things in life if they aren't hindered by the entitlement that they deserve Harvard and didn't get it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Test-optional adds to the uncertainty and STRESS.

This is the end result. People are not as confident they will get in, and therefore second-guess themselves, agonize and apply to more schools, which creates more work and more stress for everyone.

And as a poster said above, there aren't more seats in college. It is a zero sum game. Admissions officers taking a chance on a test-optional student WILL have to reject an academically qualified high stats student for that option!

So I disagree with the dismissive posters above regarding test-optional. Test-optional is actually the reason some students are not accepted. Literally.

Now yield protection is different: you can bypass that by demonstrating interest, and customizing your essay to make sure the college knows it isn't just a last recourse. All colleges want is a little courtesy in that regard, even though looking at stats, they are well aware they won't be the first choice. But again, customizing essays, visits and interviews are adding STRESS to the process.

So all this atmosphere leads to more stress than previously. This is not healthy or acceptable. No other country does college admissions this way, and the USA should not either!!!

I hear you, but students who are excellent students but don't test well are burdened with far more stress if tests aren't optional. Why can't they be allowed to put their best foot forward with awards, achievements, APs and other indices? As someone who teaches SAT test prep, I am bothered that people place too much emphasis on SAT in relation to merit.

We need to expand our definitions of top schools rather than hoard spaces for kids who are able to perform well on SAT.

No such thing. That’s called grade inflation.

BS---test anxiety is a real thing. Given that rarely (or rather never for most people) have I been required to take a test in the real world, never required to do a project without ability to look things up or work with anyone else if I have questions, why is how someone can do on an individual test so important to you?

Always wondered how 'test anxiety' crops up for the SATs but never for the multiple mid-terms, final exams and APs.. Someone care to explain this?

I always read 'test anxiety' and 'bad test taker' and 'my kid is not as smart as I think they should be'

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is my take on this issue: You have two cooks.

Cook #1 is given the best ingredients, fresh, local, expensive, top notch. This chef cooks an amazing meal in a state of the art kitchen with a lot of assistants.
Cook #2 is given poor quality ingredients in a run down kitchen, but still manages to prepare an amazing meal all by themselves.

Who would you hire?

Excellent analogy. Most are just upset that their privilege isn't buying them into the elite colleges. Sad they can't see how Cook #2 is brilliant in their own right and will benefit even more from the Elite college than #1 will. #1 will be fine anywhere. And plenty of #1's will get selected to attend elite colleges. It's not like elite schools are filled with #2s.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is my take on this issue: You have two cooks.

Cook #1 is given the best ingredients, fresh, local, expensive, top notch. This chef cooks an amazing meal in a state of the art kitchen with a lot of assistants.
Cook #2 is given poor quality ingredients in a run down kitchen, but still manages to prepare an amazing meal all by themselves.

Who would you hire?

I would give cook #2 a bonus point if they produce really the same quality result.

However, Cook #1 usually produces better in reality.

Oh, therefore I'll likely hire #1 for my fancy Michelin restaurant.

#2 will still be great and successful at a little lower grade restaurant.

What could cook #2 produce with the high end kitchen, the help and the best ingredients?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Read this 2019 article from the NYT? Sound familiar?

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/30/magazine/almost-all-the-colleges-i-wanted-to-go-to-rejected-me-now-what.html?smtyp=cur&smid=fb-nytimes&fbclid=IwAR33p-Nhl1mO5BSmjk461YIxU1iqqvLZ5moObJWGaE2-iV7bm-csPn0xEFU&mibextid=Zxz2cZ

Kids have been getting rejected from Uber-competitor schools for a very long time. This was pre-COVID, pre-TO.

I realize there is an impulse to look for something to blame if your kid is rejected from their dream school or most of their targets. But it’s important to remember that your kid is the common denominator (especially with multiple rejections). There is obviously something deficient in the application for the kinds of schools targeted — maybe the essay is bad, maybe you didn’t take enough foreign language, maybe the ECs are spread too thin and don’t demonstrate passion and commitment over time?

What impressed me about the letter writer in the article was he seems to recognizes that instead of casting blame on others. At least there’s some acknowledgment he’s dealing with a bruised ego. That said, his attitude about the schools he did get into leaves a lot to be desired.

I feel bad for kids who faced a lot of rejection this year. But telling them it’s because test optional let lesser kids sneak in and steal their birthright admission isn’t helping them deal with reality. Learn to make the best of the opportunities you ARE given.

Well, these sermons about learning to deal with the harsh realities of college admissions is of little help to students who spent years of high school chasing an unattainable goal. Not because they didn't study enough or didn't give their best to their community, their extracurriculars and their internships but because they are from unwanted financial class, race, geography or whatever.

That is your fault as a parent if you made them think T25 is an "attainable goal" for anyone. They have always been a reach for everyone, save a well hooked student (think parent is a celebrity or presidents or bill gates, etc).
A well raised kid will grow up knowing you work hard in school to learn, do well and aim high, but also know their life is not over if they only get into school ranked #32.

Amen! So many entitled people on this thread.

This is the dumbest s**t, I have ever heard. You wouldn't dare say this to an URM or woman trying to get a coveted spot anywhere and coming up short and then venting. Everybody has the right to expect that if they work hard and play by the rules, they will get their reward in a country that is fair. Instead the universities play by twisted rules that are never made transparent and jerk people along. People are not entitled for expecting fair treatment, the Universities are evil for not being transparent about their admission policies.

Why don't HYPMS, make all their committee decisions and scores public after redacting personally identifying information. Why don't they release application and admit rates by race, score, GPA, legacy status etc every year so that people can clearly see what their real chances are.

Don't you dare call people entitled. If admissions were fair, everybody would know their chances very well as the would be enough data to make a very good guess. Instead these universities exploit applicants. They are the evil side here. Blame them

Because revealing that would not let people know what their real chances are. And there is already enough data to know if you don’t have a shot. So the only event that could happen from revealing more information is fewer applicants, which is the opposite of what they want to build their class from.

Everyone knows that any school with a less than 20% acceptance rate (and certainly those with single digits) is a REACH. You know that you have the chance to buy the lottery ticket and the chance of winning is small, so most do NOT have a shot. It's not a surprise.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Read this 2019 article from the NYT? Sound familiar?

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/30/magazine/almost-all-the-colleges-i-wanted-to-go-to-rejected-me-now-what.html?smtyp=cur&smid=fb-nytimes&fbclid=IwAR33p-Nhl1mO5BSmjk461YIxU1iqqvLZ5moObJWGaE2-iV7bm-csPn0xEFU&mibextid=Zxz2cZ

Kids have been getting rejected from Uber-competitor schools for a very long time. This was pre-COVID, pre-TO.

I realize there is an impulse to look for something to blame if your kid is rejected from their dream school or most of their targets. But it’s important to remember that your kid is the common denominator (especially with multiple rejections). There is obviously something deficient in the application for the kinds of schools targeted — maybe the essay is bad, maybe you didn’t take enough foreign language, maybe the ECs are spread too thin and don’t demonstrate passion and commitment over time?

What impressed me about the letter writer in the article was he seems to recognizes that instead of casting blame on others. At least there’s some acknowledgment he’s dealing with a bruised ego. That said, his attitude about the schools he did get into leaves a lot to be desired.

I feel bad for kids who faced a lot of rejection this year. But telling them it’s because test optional let lesser kids sneak in and steal their birthright admission isn’t helping them deal with reality. Learn to make the best of the opportunities you ARE given.

Well, these sermons about learning to deal with the harsh realities of college admissions is of little help to students who spent years of high school chasing an unattainable goal. Not because they didn't study enough or didn't give their best to their community, their extracurriculars and their internships but because they are from unwanted financial class, race, geography or whatever.

That is your fault as a parent if you made them think T25 is an "attainable goal" for anyone. They have always been a reach for everyone, save a well hooked student (think parent is a celebrity or presidents or bill gates, etc).
A well raised kid will grow up knowing you work hard in school to learn, do well and aim high, but also know their life is not over if they only get into school ranked #32.

Amen! So many entitled people on this thread.

This is the dumbest s**t, I have ever heard. You wouldn't dare say this to an URM or woman trying to get a coveted spot anywhere and coming up short and then venting. Everybody has the right to expect that if they work hard and play by the rules, they will get their reward in a country that is fair. Instead the universities play by twisted rules that are never made transparent and jerk people along. People are not entitled for expecting fair treatment, the Universities are evil for not being transparent about their admission policies.

Why don't HYPMS, make all their committee decisions and scores public after redacting personally identifying information. Why don't they release application and admit rates by race, score, GPA, legacy status etc every year so that people can clearly see what their real chances are.

Don't you dare call people entitled. If admissions were fair, everybody would know their chances very well as the would be enough data to make a very good guess. Instead these universities exploit applicants. They are the evil side here. Blame them

+100

If they just want to do whatever they want to do, they should pay all the taxes, and not a single tax payers penny should go there.

Do you insist on the same at your church or your country club? Or any other tax exempt organization, like clubs, political organizations, and others?

And then we vote on everything that every organization gets to do because our opinions differ, of course.

The tax canard is just so stupid. You should stop using it.

DP. Yes. Remove tax sheltered status to ALL organizations after 5 years.. You can always come up with different rules (e.g. charitable distributions are considered expenses) to make the tax code work for them but not paying taxes forever is BS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Test-optional adds to the uncertainty and STRESS.

This is the end result. People are not as confident they will get in, and therefore second-guess themselves, agonize and apply to more schools, which creates more work and more stress for everyone.

And as a poster said above, there aren't more seats in college. It is a zero sum game. Admissions officers taking a chance on a test-optional student WILL have to reject an academically qualified high stats student for that option!

So I disagree with the dismissive posters above regarding test-optional. Test-optional is actually the reason some students are not accepted. Literally.

Now yield protection is different: you can bypass that by demonstrating interest, and customizing your essay to make sure the college knows it isn't just a last recourse. All colleges want is a little courtesy in that regard, even though looking at stats, they are well aware they won't be the first choice. But again, customizing essays, visits and interviews are adding STRESS to the process.

So all this atmosphere leads to more stress than previously. This is not healthy or acceptable. No other country does college admissions this way, and the USA should not either!!!

I hear you, but students who are excellent students but don't test well are burdened with far more stress if tests aren't optional. Why can't they be allowed to put their best foot forward with awards, achievements, APs and other indices? As someone who teaches SAT test prep, I am bothered that people place too much emphasis on SAT in relation to merit.

We need to expand our definitions of top schools rather than hoard spaces for kids who are able to perform well on SAT.

No such thing. That’s called grade inflation.

BS---test anxiety is a real thing. Given that rarely (or rather never for most people) have I been required to take a test in the real world, never required to do a project without ability to look things up or work with anyone else if I have questions, why is how someone can do on an individual test so important to you?

Always wondered how 'test anxiety' crops up for the SATs but never for the multiple mid-terms, final exams and APs.. Someone care to explain this?

Public school kids generally don’t take midterms or final exams anymore, and their schools have a quantity over quality approach to APs. Lots of public school kids fail AP tests or take the class but not the exam, and their schools don’t count the exam grade in their GPA. In contrast, most privates think it’s better for a kid to take one AP class & get a 5 on the exam than to take 4 AP exams & get 2’s and 3’s on all of them.