No, test optional isn’t the reason your kid didn’t get in.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:only admitted ... because I had the highest GMAT's in the class.

Anonymous wrote:Except they are not objective. ... So TO allows a student to submit that to demonstrate some added proficiency.
... there are incredibly smart and accomplished students who don't test well.

Standardized tests are more objective than grades. There are smart and accompished students who don't get good grades. If test-optional "allows you to submit scores", then applications should be grade-optional, and essay optional, and allow you to submit those.

I have seen executive-education programs where applicants are "too busy" to take the test. This is just an excuse by a dummy who knows he will perform poorly on the test. He will also perform poorly in the classroom and make more excuses.

It takes four years to build a high school transcipt. But it takes only one morning to take SAT's. These tests have incremental predictive power. Schools should use all the information.

I saw students at the "W" high schools in the second- or third-hardest calculus class, with inflated grades, inflated extracurriculars, and inflated expectations. They were in the nonsense "National Honor Society", but not in any hard classes. I taught dumb students at a HYP university. Absent a disability, if your daughter performs poorly on tests, then she is not especially smart. She might be above average. Maybe she is 80th or 90th percentile. She is probably nice and concientious, but is not near the 99th percentile that needs to be at a top school.

They aren't really. Also, grades are a part of school systems, SATs are not. But, essats, sure, some colleges have supplemental essays, others do not. They know what they want to see. You just want the thing your enriched kid excels at to count for more. My kid is really good at public speaking, so I think they should all require an in-person interview.

You make a LOT of uninformed assumptions in your post. You suggest you have any clue about how my daughter performed on tests and her intelligence to boot from some generic post information? Talk about dumb and uneducated.

[Anonymous]

So I just did an SAT math practice test. Just to let my DC know what math subjects are on it. It’s not particularly difficult but it also not a good gauge of who is “good” at math. It’s set up to make you rush. It tests who can do math quickly. But that’s a pretty poor proxy for overall math knowledge. So it basically tells you who is better AT THAT KIND OF TEST. Which doesn’t resemble any actual math exam I’ve ever had. And even less so real world use of math.

It may not have 0 value but it’s certainly not as important as DCUM land seems to think it is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It’s what happen when schools seek out diversity instead of the best and brightest. Educators only way to close the education gap is to drop the ceiling to the floor.

So admissions become a game of craps.

Racist. Diversity and “best and brightest” aren’t mutually exclusive. They did choose the best and brightest. Obviously the rejects aren’t considered to be among that group.

Facts are not racist. "Diversity" means getting the best from the diversity pool-- not the best overall pool.

I go further and say that "diversity" as it's currently used is RACIST, against Asians. I fully support doing away with affirmative action because of this. You cannot spend decades lying about wanting to welcome all races, only to dismiss achievers of Asian descent and hold them to higher standards than the rest, and materially impact their chances of attaining their full potential due to discrimination in higher education and jobs.

Asians have long supported liberal and progressive policies, but as a voting block, inasmuch as any large and disparate group can be, they do not approve of ALL the left's agenda. Be careful not to take such voting groups for granted all the damm time.

Agree. Asians are the fastest growing minority group in the US. Historically they voted liberal/progressive but the tide is shifting. Even liberal mainstream media have noticed. Affirmative action is a major reason but not the only reason. Crime and taxes also play a role. In some swing states and districts they may play a crucial in deciding elections. Just like Southern Whites, the Democrats took those votes for granted for too long back in the 60’s and 70’s. The Jews are shifting their votes too, considering that the Democrats are more and more openly anti-semitic, anti-Israel and more pro-Palestinian.

Correct +1.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So I just did an SAT math practice test. Just to let my DC know what math subjects are on it. It’s not particularly difficult but it also not a good gauge of who is “good” at math. It’s set up to make you rush. It tests who can do math quickly. But that’s a pretty poor proxy for overall math knowledge. So it basically tells you who is better AT THAT KIND OF TEST. Which doesn’t resemble any actual math exam I’ve ever had. And even less so real world use of math.

It may not have 0 value but it’s certainly not as important as DCUM land seems to think it is.

Quick thinking and judgment is a very important skill especially in the real world

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So I just did an SAT math practice test. Just to let my DC know what math subjects are on it. It’s not particularly difficult but it also not a good gauge of who is “good” at math. It’s set up to make you rush. It tests who can do math quickly. But that’s a pretty poor proxy for overall math knowledge. So it basically tells you who is better AT THAT KIND OF TEST. Which doesn’t resemble any actual math exam I’ve ever had. And even less so real world use of math.

It may not have 0 value but it’s certainly not as important as DCUM land seems to think it is.

Quick thinking and judgment is a very important skill especially in the real world

Plus under pressure

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So I just did an SAT math practice test. Just to let my DC know what math subjects are on it. It’s not particularly difficult but it also not a good gauge of who is “good” at math. It’s set up to make you rush. It tests who can do math quickly. But that’s a pretty poor proxy for overall math knowledge. So it basically tells you who is better AT THAT KIND OF TEST. Which doesn’t resemble any actual math exam I’ve ever had. And even less so real world use of math.

It may not have 0 value but it’s certainly not as important as DCUM land seems to think it is.

Quick thinking and judgment is a very important skill especially in the real world

DP: But not really for doing math problems. And quick thinking is not typically what is needed in college which is what the tests are supposed to be for. There are a few jobs where quick thinking is needed, use timed assessments for recruiting for those when the time comes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So I just did an SAT math practice test. Just to let my DC know what math subjects are on it. It’s not particularly difficult but it also not a good gauge of who is “good” at math. It’s set up to make you rush. It tests who can do math quickly. But that’s a pretty poor proxy for overall math knowledge. So it basically tells you who is better AT THAT KIND OF TEST. Which doesn’t resemble any actual math exam I’ve ever had. And even less so real world use of math.

It may not have 0 value but it’s certainly not as important as DCUM land seems to think it is.

Quick thinking and judgment is a very important skill especially in the real world

DP: But not really for doing math problems. And quick thinking is not typically what is needed in college which is what the tests are supposed to be for. There are a few jobs where quick thinking is needed, use timed assessments for recruiting for those when the time comes.

All of the tests. exams, midterms, finals in colleges are under tight time limits. When you have meetings, presentations, taking questions, etc, at work places, quick thinking is very important.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So I just did an SAT math practice test. Just to let my DC know what math subjects are on it. It’s not particularly difficult but it also not a good gauge of who is “good” at math. It’s set up to make you rush. It tests who can do math quickly. But that’s a pretty poor proxy for overall math knowledge. So it basically tells you who is better AT THAT KIND OF TEST. Which doesn’t resemble any actual math exam I’ve ever had. And even less so real world use of math.

It may not have 0 value but it’s certainly not as important as DCUM land seems to think it is.

Quick thinking and judgment is a very important skill especially in the real world

DP: But not really for doing math problems. And quick thinking is not typically what is needed in college which is what the tests are supposed to be for. There are a few jobs where quick thinking is needed, use timed assessments for recruiting for those when the time comes.

All of the tests. exams, midterms, finals in colleges are under tight time limits. When you have meetings, presentations, taking questions, etc, at work places, quick thinking is very important.

DP. No, they're not. My kid's were mostly untimee or had plenty of time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So I just did an SAT math practice test. Just to let my DC know what math subjects are on it. It’s not particularly difficult but it also not a good gauge of who is “good” at math. It’s set up to make you rush. It tests who can do math quickly. But that’s a pretty poor proxy for overall math knowledge. So it basically tells you who is better AT THAT KIND OF TEST. Which doesn’t resemble any actual math exam I’ve ever had. And even less so real world use of math.

It may not have 0 value but it’s certainly not as important as DCUM land seems to think it is.

Agreed. Another major factor is wording. The test writers like to word questions in a way that is not always straightforward. Answer choices also have lure answers sometimes. Having taught SAT prep (and GRE and GMAT), there really is an aspect of performance tgat is unrelated to intelligence or content.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So I just did an SAT math practice test. Just to let my DC know what math subjects are on it. It’s not particularly difficult but it also not a good gauge of who is “good” at math. It’s set up to make you rush. It tests who can do math quickly. But that’s a pretty poor proxy for overall math knowledge. So it basically tells you who is better AT THAT KIND OF TEST. Which doesn’t resemble any actual math exam I’ve ever had. And even less so real world use of math.

It may not have 0 value but it’s certainly not as important as DCUM land seems to think it is.

Quick thinking and judgment is a very important skill especially in the real world

DP: But not really for doing math problems. And quick thinking is not typically what is needed in college which is what the tests are supposed to be for. There are a few jobs where quick thinking is needed, use timed assessments for recruiting for those when the time comes.

All of the tests. exams, midterms, finals in colleges are under tight time limits. When you have meetings, presentations, taking questions, etc, at work places, quick thinking is very important.

DP. No, they're not. My kid's were mostly untimee or had plenty of time.

Easy majors are often like that, and even no test. You won't have to worry about test in like theater major.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So I just did an SAT math practice test. Just to let my DC know what math subjects are on it. It’s not particularly difficult but it also not a good gauge of who is “good” at math. It’s set up to make you rush. It tests who can do math quickly. But that’s a pretty poor proxy for overall math knowledge. So it basically tells you who is better AT THAT KIND OF TEST. Which doesn’t resemble any actual math exam I’ve ever had. And even less so real world use of math.

It may not have 0 value but it’s certainly not as important as DCUM land seems to think it is.

Quick thinking and judgment is a very important skill especially in the real world

DP: But not really for doing math problems. And quick thinking is not typically what is needed in college which is what the tests are supposed to be for. There are a few jobs where quick thinking is needed, use timed assessments for recruiting for those when the time comes.

All of the tests. exams, midterms, finals in colleges are under tight time limits. When you have meetings, presentations, taking questions, etc, at work places, quick thinking is very important.

DP. No, they're not. My kid's were mostly untimee or had plenty of time.

Easy majors are often like that, and even no test. You won't have to worry about test in like theater major.

Zounds! This is so ignorant. You definitely don't know what you are talking about. My kid is a stem major. I, however, actually have a theatre degree, and final exam was often performance based. That is high stakes. Those also involved extensive prep and documentation. Large amounts of info were also required for theatre history final exams.

Take heed, Knave. Speak to your own experience rather than make judgments based on noninfo.
“Away, you mouldy rogue, away!”
"Away, you cutpurse rascal, you filthy bung, away!"
(Henry IV)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So I just did an SAT math practice test. Just to let my DC know what math subjects are on it. It’s not particularly difficult but it also not a good gauge of who is “good” at math. It’s set up to make you rush. It tests who can do math quickly. But that’s a pretty poor proxy for overall math knowledge. So it basically tells you who is better AT THAT KIND OF TEST. Which doesn’t resemble any actual math exam I’ve ever had. And even less so real world use of math.

It may not have 0 value but it’s certainly not as important as DCUM land seems to think it is.

Quick thinking and judgment is a very important skill especially in the real world

DP: But not really for doing math problems. And quick thinking is not typically what is needed in college which is what the tests are supposed to be for. There are a few jobs where quick thinking is needed, use timed assessments for recruiting for those when the time comes.

WHile quick thinking is needed in many jobs, most allow time for you to look something up or ask others if you are not 100% certain. Nobody uses a formula for calculating something if they are not 100% certain and give the results to their boss. They take 5 mins to look it up/ask someone and get it right. Most jobs are not done in a vacuum without asking others for help/assistance. Team work is helpful and important.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So I just did an SAT math practice test. Just to let my DC know what math subjects are on it. It’s not particularly difficult but it also not a good gauge of who is “good” at math. It’s set up to make you rush. It tests who can do math quickly. But that’s a pretty poor proxy for overall math knowledge. So it basically tells you who is better AT THAT KIND OF TEST. Which doesn’t resemble any actual math exam I’ve ever had. And even less so real world use of math.

It may not have 0 value but it’s certainly not as important as DCUM land seems to think it is.

Agreed. Another major factor is wording. The test writers like to word questions in a way that is not always straightforward. Answer choices also have lure answers sometimes. Having taught SAT prep (and GRE and GMAT), there really is an aspect of performance tgat is unrelated to intelligence or content.

+1000

That is why (if you can afford it) private one-one test prep is the most helpful. My kid went from 1330 to 1500 with one baseline test and 4 hours of "tutoring". That tutoring looked at the specific errors and taught the "tricks for question formats". After another 4 hours my kid was still hovering at 1500. So basically all we needed was 4 hours and just taking practice tests to ensure they knew the "techniques". That's not testing overall Intelligence---that's testing how well you learn the tricks.

[Anonymous]

How is learning strategies to improve SAT/ACT any different than strategies to improve essays and craft other parts of application? At least the SAT/ACT has to be done by the student themselves. No way to tell if the essays are actually even written by the kid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:How is learning strategies to improve SAT/ACT any different than strategies to improve essays and craft other parts of application? At least the SAT/ACT has to be done by the student themselves. No way to tell if the essays are actually even written by the kid.

it's not much different. However, I would hope most are ethical enough to not have someone write the essays for their kid. We used a CC to help with brainstorming, but they made my kid do the work---they didn't just give ideas and they didn't just edit---it was always a long discussion to decide how to improve. And yes, that is a privilege to have, but my kid's also got similar help in their English classes at school, just not at the same level.
BTW, most AO can tell if an essay is too polished to be written by that kid. That's why it's important to make sure it is your kid doing the writing in their own voice.

Many schools were heading towards TO or test blind before covid because they believe the SAT/ACT is not the best indicator of student success. They've found gpa, course rigor, essays, interviews, etc are much better indicators of success. However, most schools will remain TO (not test blind) for the near future, so if your kid does well at testing, you can still submit them (except for UCs). And I say this as a parent whose kid's top safety went Test Blind the year they applied---school had been moving there since 2012---school has an avg UW GPA of 3.9----so it definately made the "safetY" not as much of a guarantee, whereas the year before with TO my kid was in the 90% for testing and above the 3.9UW and certainly would be a guarnatee.

SO yes, people will still cheat. Unfortunately many have no ethics and we cannot completely eliminate that. But I think TO or test blind is a good move for many reasons. And outside of the T25-30 schools, it's really not relevant/doesn't affect most top students. Just remember even with Test scores, all schools in T25 are holistic admissions so the test score of 1580 when the range is 1520-1590 (25 to 75%) does not really distinguish your 1580 kid from others, it's only a small piece of the picture. And with admission rates under 20%, it was still a reach for most, even 5 years ago.