Clustering of special Ed kids in gen Ed

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

At our ES, one SN child was asking that my son be in his class. A compliment I know, but that meant my son was with her son and the other SN students year after year. It wasn't random. The SN's parents were allowed "a say". I was not and didn't know this was happening until years later.


Parents like you are horrible for sns parents to deal with. Assuming that the class with a sns kid is somehow undesirable is vile.

I'm in favor of inclusion but should it affect my son's placement EVERY year? The other Mother determines his placement every year? Without me knowing about it

Exactly. I have a type-A rule follower and he was routinely sat next to the most disruptive kids to be a “peer model” until I asked for it to stop. Non-identified kids have needs too

I have one of these kids too and I only heard a slight grumble once early on about Larlo being difficult to work with. I quickly put a stop to that saying that it's part of school and learning for DC to work with all kinds of kids including those who don't do as well in cooperation or who may struggle with certain tasks. Sometimes kids with some types of SN think more creatively or out of the box than others and if have a partner who can pull those ideas out of that child you may one day have a cure for cancer or AIDS or global warming.

I would never ask a teacher to "stop" this grouping because it's just part of normal school and teacher's job trying to create groups that will be productive.

As a teacher, I would say you are paying a huge disservice to the kid who is supposed to serve as a peer model. I try different kinds of groupings, myself, but I like to put the motivated ones who challenge each other, together. I also place all the ones who don’t do any work together.

Glad to hear I’m not the only one who does that. 😊

Oh, gosh. That is a terrible approach. You've pretty much given up and guaranteed failure for those kids.

How? I’m differentiating for each table group versus differentiating 3 ways at the same table group (then doing it 5 more times). It’s more efficient. Plus when I mix the skills at the table, the low kids just copy of the high learners.

You should be fired.

What the…? What do you think differentiation looks like, lady?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is the way it was when our kids were in FCPS general ed. Almost no learning was happening by the time our youngest was in third grade and up. There was always at least two kids throwing chairs in the classroom, throwing classmates' stuff off their desks, and in general wandering around and disrupting class to the point that the teacher was doing nothing except addressing them. Classroom assistant? Haha, no. Just the teacher handling nearly 30 students alone.

And that was pre-pandemic.

Good luck.

I have been through decades of public school with my kids, one has an iep, and have never experienced anything like this. There were disruptive non sped kids in middle school who were a problem and one kid in first grade who was not special ed who was disruptive. The kid adapted and settled down by second grade. The reality is that the teacher in that class, who had been there forever, was awful. She couldn't manage anything..

Blame the teacher for a kid disrupting the classroom? That’s new. 🙄

She was horrible. I volunteered in 3 classes the year my kid had her. She did very little work and was openly nasty to certain kids. I saw her blame one non white kid again and again for anything that went wrong in the class. She needed to retire. She was awful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There should be sped schools, the way they have AAP centers.

Least Restrictive Environment be like: do I mean nothing to you?

But what about the rights of the other students to learn?

Nothing is stopping them but a lot of you want to block sns children from access to a reasonable education. You think they have cooties?

NP. Why should we expect a bunch of children to put up with violence that we ourselves would NEVER put up with at the work place. If my coworker threw a chair at me or told me he wants me to die- I'd file a police report. Non violent, non disruptive children are not what we're talking about. Kids who have SN and just learn slower are perfectly fine in a classroom.

And some SN learn faster than their Gen Ed counterparts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:At our school they seem to put all the special Ed kids in one Gen Ed class. It’s not fair to the other regular kids who get placed in with that group. The class is usually poorly behaved and the teacher is overwhelmed. This is called clustering and I thought this practice was outdated and frowned upon. Why are elementary schools clustering special Ed kids now in one class instead of spreading them out among 3 different Gen Ed classes? Can parents request for their child not to be put in the special Ed class?

And you know this because…?

DP here...Uh have you never volunteered in your school? I volunteer for lunch, in the classroom, grade wide parties. Yes, there is an aide but there is only so much they can do. You have 4-5 special ed kids some with severe emotional management issues, some who really aren't getting the curriculum etc etc. And one aide trying to put out fires, catch fires before they spread and keep this kids somewhat engaged. Meanwhile as these repeated and loud disturbances happen the teacher is trying to keep the rest of the class focused. It does breed resentment among parents and the students. My DS in 3rd grade can't stand the disruptions, the random shouting, singing, anger outbursts. As the teacher has to help the aide get these kids under control the rest of the class is left to twiddle their thumbs. We requested not to be put in an inclusion classroom. I don't see how it's fair that a handful of kids get to derail the education of the majority.

Do a have a suggestion besides for a separate school or classroom - because those are against the law?

The law needs to be revisited or, at the very least, fully funded by the Federal Government so it can be properly implemented.

+1
The situation with SPED is not sustainable

It is funded by the Feds. Idiots!

The Feds are suppose to fund it but it is massively underfunded. So there are a ton of requirements that are supposed to be funded by States and Counties have to make up the funding gaps. This means less money for Gen Ed kids and Advanced kids.

I get that you are frustrated because you don't agree with peoples generalizations of SPED kids but insulting people and the like does not change peoples attitudes, if anything it makes it worse. Parents are interested in providing the best that they can for their kid. If their kid is in a classroom that is being disrupted by a kid who is being violent, the other parents are not going to just shrug their shoulders and say "inclusiveness is great". They don't want their kid getting hit or having their stuff thrown. I doubt parents of SPED kids want their kids being hurt.

I do wish there was a way to track kids so that kids who need extra support are in one class, so that the kids who are grade levels behind get the attention that they deserve while the kids who are on grade level are in a different class so they can move at a pace that makes sense for those kids. I know that there are kids who are behind who are not SPED.

I think we are asking Teachers to do too much in the classroom. Differentiating for 5-7 ability levels is too much. If you help the kids who are below grade level, you end up ignoring the kids who are ahead and need to be challenged and providing basic level of instruction for kids on grade level.

Pull out how FAPE is only for kids with SPED, you are of course right, but that is doing nothing to make people feel more sympathetic to your cause.

I am thrilled that my child did not inherit my LDs and does not seem to have inherited my ADHD. It is fun to see him learn and grow and not have the struggles that I had. We discuss how he behaves in class. I remind him not to discuss his grades or how hard/easy he finds the classwork because there are other kids who are struggling and they don't need to hear him discussing that math is easy because it is not for them. But that doesn't mean that I don't wish that his Teachers could find the time to pull his math and reading groups aside and work with them more.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

At our ES, one SN child was asking that my son be in his class. A compliment I know, but that meant my son was with her son and the other SN students year after year. It wasn't random. The SN's parents were allowed "a say". I was not and didn't know this was happening until years later.


Parents like you are horrible for sns parents to deal with. Assuming that the class with a sns kid is somehow undesirable is vile.

I'm in favor of inclusion but should it affect my son's placement EVERY year? The other Mother determines his placement every year? Without me knowing about it

Exactly. I have a type-A rule follower and he was routinely sat next to the most disruptive kids to be a “peer model” until I asked for it to stop. Non-identified kids have needs too

I have one of these kids too and I only heard a slight grumble once early on about Larlo being difficult to work with. I quickly put a stop to that saying that it's part of school and learning for DC to work with all kinds of kids including those who don't do as well in cooperation or who may struggle with certain tasks. Sometimes kids with some types of SN think more creatively or out of the box than others and if have a partner who can pull those ideas out of that child you may one day have a cure for cancer or AIDS or global warming.

I would never ask a teacher to "stop" this grouping because it's just part of normal school and teacher's job trying to create groups that will be productive.

As a teacher, I would say you are paying a huge disservice to the kid who is supposed to serve as a peer model. I try different kinds of groupings, myself, but I like to put the motivated ones who challenge each other, together. I also place all the ones who don’t do any work together.

Glad to hear I’m not the only one who does that. 😊

Oh, gosh. That is a terrible approach. You've pretty much given up and guaranteed failure for those kids.

How? I’m differentiating for each table group versus differentiating 3 ways at the same table group (then doing it 5 more times). It’s more efficient. Plus when I mix the skills at the table, the low kids just copy of the high learners.

You should be fired.

Haha, never going to happen! I’d love to hear how you’d do it different and not get burnt out within 4 months.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:At our school they seem to put all the special Ed kids in one Gen Ed class. It’s not fair to the other regular kids who get placed in with that group. The class is usually poorly behaved and the teacher is overwhelmed. This is called clustering and I thought this practice was outdated and frowned upon. Why are elementary schools clustering special Ed kids now in one class instead of spreading them out among 3 different Gen Ed classes? Can parents request for their child not to be put in the special Ed class?

And you know this because…?

DP here...Uh have you never volunteered in your school? I volunteer for lunch, in the classroom, grade wide parties. Yes, there is an aide but there is only so much they can do. You have 4-5 special ed kids some with severe emotional management issues, some who really aren't getting the curriculum etc etc. And one aide trying to put out fires, catch fires before they spread and keep this kids somewhat engaged. Meanwhile as these repeated and loud disturbances happen the teacher is trying to keep the rest of the class focused. It does breed resentment among parents and the students. My DS in 3rd grade can't stand the disruptions, the random shouting, singing, anger outbursts. As the teacher has to help the aide get these kids under control the rest of the class is left to twiddle their thumbs. We requested not to be put in an inclusion classroom. I don't see how it's fair that a handful of kids get to derail the education of the majority.

Do a have a suggestion besides for a separate school or classroom - because those are against the law?

The law needs to be revisited or, at the very least, fully funded by the Federal Government so it can be properly implemented.

+1
The situation with SPED is not sustainable

It is funded by the Feds. Idiots!

no it is not

+1, they have no idea what they’re taking about.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is the way it was when our kids were in FCPS general ed. Almost no learning was happening by the time our youngest was in third grade and up. There was always at least two kids throwing chairs in the classroom, throwing classmates' stuff off their desks, and in general wandering around and disrupting class to the point that the teacher was doing nothing except addressing them. Classroom assistant? Haha, no. Just the teacher handling nearly 30 students alone.

And that was pre-pandemic.

Good luck.

I have been through decades of public school with my kids, one has an iep, and have never experienced anything like this. There were disruptive non sped kids in middle school who were a problem and one kid in first grade who was not special ed who was disruptive. The kid adapted and settled down by second grade. The reality is that the teacher in that class, who had been there forever, was awful. She couldn't manage anything..

Blame the teacher for a kid disrupting the classroom? That’s new. 🙄

She was horrible. I volunteered in 3 classes the year my kid had her. She did very little work and was openly nasty to certain kids. I saw her blame one non white kid again and again for anything that went wrong in the class. She needed to retire. She was awful.

Maybe it was their fault. There is often 1 or 2 kids that cause 95% of the problems.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:At our school they seem to put all the special Ed kids in one Gen Ed class. It’s not fair to the other regular kids who get placed in with that group. The class is usually poorly behaved and the teacher is overwhelmed. This is called clustering and I thought this practice was outdated and frowned upon. Why are elementary schools clustering special Ed kids now in one class instead of spreading them out among 3 different Gen Ed classes? Can parents request for their child not to be put in the special Ed class?

This happened at Wolftrap. It was never fixed. We left.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There should be sped schools, the way they have AAP centers.

Least Restrictive Environment be like: do I mean nothing to you?

But what about the rights of the other students to learn?

They are still learning… it may not be at the pace you want but that isn’t specified by law. Admin and teachers have to follow the law before the needs of the the other kids. Sorry, it is what it is. You should lobby for more flexibility for students to be transferred to other programs/schools; because now, it is virtually impossible to do that without SPED parents suing the district.

+1 Hey, more opportunity to tell people about the law!!

Schools only must provide a “serviceable Chevrolet,” not a Cadillac, to afford a student a free appropriate public education (FAPE). The analogy is often associated with the seminal U.S. Supreme Court case known as Rowley, which said that public education requires only a “basic floor of opportunity,” not that schools “maximize” a child’s educational potential. The “Chevy vs. Cadillac” analogy was coined and used by lower courts after Rowley, and suggests that schools need only provide a bare minimum of services to afford a student FAPE.

Only students in special Ed are afforded FAPE (free and appropriate public education). General Ed students are NOT. A general Ed student could have a different substitute teacher every day who does nothing with the students. A general Ed student could have a substitute math teacher who know nothing about math and shows movies every day and there is no recourse. A general Ed student can be in a class that is evacuated every day and not learn a thing and there is nothing a parent can do.

You are ridiculous. Your assumption that special ed students get better teachers is incorrect. Most school systems do everything they can for the top students and give special ed the least. Did you not realize special ed kids get the same crappy substitutes?. Special ed substitutes can be anybody. My kid was abused by a substitute who knew nothing about special ed. We get the same lousy teachers. My kid with an iep had the worst math teacher in hs. All of our kids were affected.

No, no, no. Nowhere am I saying sped students get better teachers. I am saying FAPE is a special education right not a general Ed one. A special Ed student who has awful subs has the right to call fir an IEP meeting with the principal, the special Ed. Teacher, and a general Ed teacher to complain and ask for the situation to be rectified. If they are not satisfied they have procedural rights and can file a complaint and go to due process where a judge will decide. Nowhere is it written general Ed students have these rights.

General Ed parents keep posting their kids have rights too. In actuality they don’t.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There should be sped schools, the way they have AAP centers.

Least Restrictive Environment be like: do I mean nothing to you?

But what about the rights of the other students to learn?

They are still learning… it may not be at the pace you want but that isn’t specified by law. Admin and teachers have to follow the law before the needs of the the other kids. Sorry, it is what it is. You should lobby for more flexibility for students to be transferred to other programs/schools; because now, it is virtually impossible to do that without SPED parents suing the district.

+1 Hey, more opportunity to tell people about the law!!

Schools only must provide a “serviceable Chevrolet,” not a Cadillac, to afford a student a free appropriate public education (FAPE). The analogy is often associated with the seminal U.S. Supreme Court case known as Rowley, which said that public education requires only a “basic floor of opportunity,” not that schools “maximize” a child’s educational potential. The “Chevy vs. Cadillac” analogy was coined and used by lower courts after Rowley, and suggests that schools need only provide a bare minimum of services to afford a student FAPE.

Only students in special Ed are afforded FAPE (free and appropriate public education). General Ed students are NOT. A general Ed student could have a different substitute teacher every day who does nothing with the students. A general Ed student could have a substitute math teacher who know nothing about math and shows movies every day and there is no recourse. A general Ed student can be in a class that is evacuated every day and not learn a thing and there is nothing a parent can do.

You are ridiculous. Your assumption that special ed students get better teachers is incorrect. Most school systems do everything they can for the top students and give special ed the least. Did you not realize special ed kids get the same crappy substitutes?. Special ed substitutes can be anybody. My kid was abused by a substitute who knew nothing about special ed. We get the same lousy teachers. My kid with an iep had the worst math teacher in hs. All of our kids were affected.

No, no, no. Nowhere am I saying sped students get better teachers. I am saying FAPE is a special education right not a general Ed one. A special Ed student who has awful subs has the right to call fir an IEP meeting with the principal, the special Ed. Teacher, and a general Ed teacher to complain and ask for the situation to be rectified. If they are not satisfied they have procedural rights and can file a complaint and go to due process where a judge will decide. Nowhere is it written general Ed students have these rights.

General Ed parents keep posting their kids have rights too. In actuality they don’t.

Anyone who doubts this, just look at the FCPS budget. Per capita spending on SPED students absolutely dwarfs spending on non-SPED students

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There should be sped schools, the way they have AAP centers.

Least Restrictive Environment be like: do I mean nothing to you?

But what about the rights of the other students to learn?

They are still learning… it may not be at the pace you want but that isn’t specified by law. Admin and teachers have to follow the law before the needs of the the other kids. Sorry, it is what it is. You should lobby for more flexibility for students to be transferred to other programs/schools; because now, it is virtually impossible to do that without SPED parents suing the district.

+1 Hey, more opportunity to tell people about the law!!

Schools only must provide a “serviceable Chevrolet,” not a Cadillac, to afford a student a free appropriate public education (FAPE). The analogy is often associated with the seminal U.S. Supreme Court case known as Rowley, which said that public education requires only a “basic floor of opportunity,” not that schools “maximize” a child’s educational potential. The “Chevy vs. Cadillac” analogy was coined and used by lower courts after Rowley, and suggests that schools need only provide a bare minimum of services to afford a student FAPE.

Only students in special Ed are afforded FAPE (free and appropriate public education). General Ed students are NOT. A general Ed student could have a different substitute teacher every day who does nothing with the students. A general Ed student could have a substitute math teacher who know nothing about math and shows movies every day and there is no recourse. A general Ed student can be in a class that is evacuated every day and not learn a thing and there is nothing a parent can do.

You are ridiculous. Your assumption that special ed students get better teachers is incorrect. Most school systems do everything they can for the top students and give special ed the least. Did you not realize special ed kids get the same crappy substitutes?. Special ed substitutes can be anybody. My kid was abused by a substitute who knew nothing about special ed. We get the same lousy teachers. My kid with an iep had the worst math teacher in hs. All of our kids were affected.

No, no, no. Nowhere am I saying sped students get better teachers. I am saying FAPE is a special education right not a general Ed one. A special Ed student who has awful subs has the right to call fir an IEP meeting with the principal, the special Ed. Teacher, and a general Ed teacher to complain and ask for the situation to be rectified. If they are not satisfied they have procedural rights and can file a complaint and go to due process where a judge will decide. Nowhere is it written general Ed students have these rights.

General Ed parents keep posting their kids have rights too. In actuality they don’t.

They only have the right to a public education. They don’t have to like what is being offered - this the choice of private/homeschool. Even if you leave FCPS they still get your money.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They do it our school as well. Admission says it is “easier” for special Ed to teachers to plug in

This, we had to fight to get our kid out.

We had the opposite. My DC was often in the inclusion classroom (that's what it used to be called). Surely, there was always one challenging child but that child was often pulled out for special services. Additionally, we had at least 1 other aide in the class at all times. So, we had lots of access with teachers and smaller "gen ed" kids per class so smaller teacher: kid ratio.

It really wasn't a problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There should be sped schools, the way they have AAP centers.

Least Restrictive Environment be like: do I mean nothing to you?

But what about the rights of the other students to learn?

They are still learning… it may not be at the pace you want but that isn’t specified by law. Admin and teachers have to follow the law before the needs of the the other kids. Sorry, it is what it is. You should lobby for more flexibility for students to be transferred to other programs/schools; because now, it is virtually impossible to do that without SPED parents suing the district.

+1 Hey, more opportunity to tell people about the law!!

Schools only must provide a “serviceable Chevrolet,” not a Cadillac, to afford a student a free appropriate public education (FAPE). The analogy is often associated with the seminal U.S. Supreme Court case known as Rowley, which said that public education requires only a “basic floor of opportunity,” not that schools “maximize” a child’s educational potential. The “Chevy vs. Cadillac” analogy was coined and used by lower courts after Rowley, and suggests that schools need only provide a bare minimum of services to afford a student FAPE.

Only students in special Ed are afforded FAPE (free and appropriate public education). General Ed students are NOT. A general Ed student could have a different substitute teacher every day who does nothing with the students. A general Ed student could have a substitute math teacher who know nothing about math and shows movies every day and there is no recourse. A general Ed student can be in a class that is evacuated every day and not learn a thing and there is nothing a parent can do.

You are ridiculous. Your assumption that special ed students get better teachers is incorrect. Most school systems do everything they can for the top students and give special ed the least. Did you not realize special ed kids get the same crappy substitutes?. Special ed substitutes can be anybody. My kid was abused by a substitute who knew nothing about special ed. We get the same lousy teachers. My kid with an iep had the worst math teacher in hs. All of our kids were affected.

No, no, no. Nowhere am I saying sped students get better teachers. I am saying FAPE is a special education right not a general Ed one. A special Ed student who has awful subs has the right to call fir an IEP meeting with the principal, the special Ed. Teacher, and a general Ed teacher to complain and ask for the situation to be rectified. If they are not satisfied they have procedural rights and can file a complaint and go to due process where a judge will decide. Nowhere is it written general Ed students have these rights.

General Ed parents keep posting their kids have rights too. In actuality they don’t.

Anyone who doubts this, just look at the FCPS budget. Per capita spending on SPED students absolutely dwarfs spending on non-SPED students

that is mainly due to the students in self contained classrooms. The students who are mainstreamed cost much less per pupil.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They do it our school as well. Admission says it is “easier” for special Ed to teachers to plug in

This, we had to fight to get our kid out.

We had the opposite. My DC was often in the inclusion classroom (that's what it used to be called). Surely, there was always one challenging child but that child was often pulled out for special services. Additionally, we had at least 1 other aide in the class at all times. So, we had lots of access with teachers and smaller "gen ed" kids per class so smaller teacher: kid ratio.

It really wasn't a problem.

At our school, class size was the same as other classroom, no aide, multiple incidents each day by multiple kids. Families at your school are lucky. I wonder why we see such huge differences among schools within FCPS. Anyone with an inside knowledge: is this really luck, better school administration or, year to year variation that depends on the number of students with severe behavioral issues?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:At our school they seem to put all the special Ed kids in one Gen Ed class. It’s not fair to the other regular kids who get placed in with that group. The class is usually poorly behaved and the teacher is overwhelmed. This is called clustering and I thought this practice was outdated and frowned upon. Why are elementary schools clustering special Ed kids now in one class instead of spreading them out among 3 different Gen Ed classes? Can parents request for their child not to be put in the special Ed class?

And you know this because…?

DP here...Uh have you never volunteered in your school? I volunteer for lunch, in the classroom, grade wide parties. Yes, there is an aide but there is only so much they can do. You have 4-5 special ed kids some with severe emotional management issues, some who really aren't getting the curriculum etc etc. And one aide trying to put out fires, catch fires before they spread and keep this kids somewhat engaged. Meanwhile as these repeated and loud disturbances happen the teacher is trying to keep the rest of the class focused. It does breed resentment among parents and the students. My DS in 3rd grade can't stand the disruptions, the random shouting, singing, anger outbursts. As the teacher has to help the aide get these kids under control the rest of the class is left to twiddle their thumbs. We requested not to be put in an inclusion classroom. I don't see how it's fair that a handful of kids get to derail the education of the majority.

Do a have a suggestion besides for a separate school or classroom - because those are against the law?

The law needs to be revisited or, at the very least, fully funded by the Federal Government so it can be properly implemented.

+1
The situation with SPED is not sustainable

It is funded by the Feds. Idiots!

No. They may toss some money at it but they don’t cover the costs. The law puts huge costs on local school districts and there is not enough money provided to actually implement what is required