Clustering of special Ed kids in gen Ed

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is the way it was when our kids were in FCPS general ed. Almost no learning was happening by the time our youngest was in third grade and up. There was always at least two kids throwing chairs in the classroom, throwing classmates' stuff off their desks, and in general wandering around and disrupting class to the point that the teacher was doing nothing except addressing them. Classroom assistant? Haha, no. Just the teacher handling nearly 30 students alone.

And that was pre-pandemic.

Good luck.

I have been through decades of public school with my kids, one has an iep, and have never experienced anything like this. There were disruptive non sped kids in middle school who were a problem and one kid in first grade who was not special ed who was disruptive. The kid adapted and settled down by second grade. The reality is that the teacher in that class, who had been there forever, was awful. She couldn't manage anything..

Blame the teacher for a kid disrupting the classroom? That’s new. 🙄

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:The best years my gen Ed kid has had have been in inclusion classrooms. The unfounded judgment of kids with IEPs is disgusting.

It's not unfounded for many kids in these inclusive classrooms who have had very negative, even traumatic experiences.

My kid had to see a therapist for anxiety related to going to school in her inclusive class. Why? Because two students in the class regularly had meltdowns that caused the classroom to be evacuated. These meltdowns included lots of yelling, throwing items, and in a few cases, outright assault on the teacher and aide.

It got to the point where their class was evacuating the classroom weekly. The one student's behavior just got more and more destructive to the point where he trashed a classroom one time and the kids had to finish out the day in neighboring classrooms.

That's UNACCEPTABLE behavior for anyone. My kid shouldn't have been scared of going to school because of two students who, and I will just keep it real, are never going to amount to anything. One student is mostly nonverbal with significant delays. I cannot think of any job that he can do in his future. It's sad, but it is what it is.

When I was in school, these types of students were in their own classrooms. That's how it should be. If you're a disruptive student, you don't get to be mainstreamed.

Why didn’t you ask for a classroom switch?

We did. We even had the doctor recommendation but too many people requested one so they did not accommodate any.

That was the 2019/2020 school year, so the pandemic happened and school was closed and then virtual. 2020/2021 she did fully virtual. This is her first year back in a classroom and we switched to a private. She's much happier and doesn't sit and worry in class when a student is going to have an outburst or possibly throw something at the class.

You should have started the 504 process.

Heavens, no. PP would never tag her kid as one of the gross speds.

A 504 plan is completely different from a kid with special needs who requires special education services. Look it up.

You don't understand 504s vs IEPs either so stop talking.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There should be sped schools, the way they have AAP centers.

Least Restrictive Environment be like: do I mean nothing to you?

But what about the rights of the other students to learn?

Nothing is stopping them but a lot of you want to block sns children from access to a reasonable education. You think they have cooties?

NP. Why should we expect a bunch of children to put up with violence that we ourselves would NEVER put up with at the work place. If my coworker threw a chair at me or told me he wants me to die- I'd file a police report. Non violent, non disruptive children are not what we're talking about. Kids who have SN and just learn slower are perfectly fine in a classroom.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I always thought this was the case until 3rd or maybe 4th grade? Then Sped parents basically got to interview and pick the teacher they wanted their kid to be in.

I've never encountered this in my life.

[Anonymous]

The kids trade classes for all subjects so there is no exclusive special Ed class per grade. But, we have experienced big behavior problems in AAP. Snotty, over competitive, shouting out answers, inattentive, kids saying they are smarter than one another. It’s awful.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

At our ES, one SN child was asking that my son be in his class. A compliment I know, but that meant my son was with her son and the other SN students year after year. It wasn't random. The SN's parents were allowed "a say". I was not and didn't know this was happening until years later.


Parents like you are horrible for sns parents to deal with. Assuming that the class with a sns kid is somehow undesirable is vile.

I'm in favor of inclusion but should it affect my son's placement EVERY year? The other Mother determines his placement every year? Without me knowing about it

Exactly. I have a type-A rule follower and he was routinely sat next to the most disruptive kids to be a “peer model” until I asked for it to stop. Non-identified kids have needs too

I have one of these kids too and I only heard a slight grumble once early on about Larlo being difficult to work with. I quickly put a stop to that saying that it's part of school and learning for DC to work with all kinds of kids including those who don't do as well in cooperation or who may struggle with certain tasks. Sometimes kids with some types of SN think more creatively or out of the box than others and if have a partner who can pull those ideas out of that child you may one day have a cure for cancer or AIDS or global warming.

I would never ask a teacher to "stop" this grouping because it's just part of normal school and teacher's job trying to create groups that will be productive.

As a teacher, I would say you are paying a huge disservice to the kid who is supposed to serve as a peer model. I try different kinds of groupings, myself, but I like to put the motivated ones who challenge each other, together. I also place all the ones who don’t do any work together.

Glad to hear I’m not the only one who does that. 😊

Oh, gosh. That is a terrible approach. You've pretty much given up and guaranteed failure for those kids.

How? I’m differentiating for each table group versus differentiating 3 ways at the same table group (then doing it 5 more times). It’s more efficient. Plus when I mix the skills at the table, the low kids just copy of the high learners.

Exactly. The students who are dead weight aren’t learning how to swim in the advanced groups. They need to learn how to swim or drown on their own.

Obviously, I don’t mean literally “drown,” but when has anyone learned anything without going through a series of failures?

It’s not really a true failure, if the student never even tried. Literally sitting there like a stump on a log.

Are you kidding? That is exactly what failure looks like - and it’s the first hurdle to overcome.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They should do real "team taught" classes at the elementary level. Instead you have an overworked Special Ed teacher trying to handle push in/ pull out across various grade levels and different IAs cycling in and out throughout the day.

They should also have team taught Honors and AP classes in MS and HS, but except for one here and there, they do not. It is all about $$$.

Which schools have it? Unfortunately, my DC’s MS does not have it.

I suggest you join Fairfax SEPTA and the 2E groups that are pushing for this.

Please explain this to me. The school system can't offer classes that are not open to students with disabilities. Has anyone filed a state complaint? They have to do whatever is needed to make these classes available to sns kids.

yes people have filed complaints and the state has sided with them, but FCPS hasn't seemed to learn.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A significant number of these posts are extremely ableist. I would encourage the posters to reevaluate wrongly held prejudices.

Ableist is a meaningless word that is just used to attack other people.

Let me guess, you're from Loudoun and feel the same way about the word racist.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They should do real "team taught" classes at the elementary level. Instead you have an overworked Special Ed teacher trying to handle push in/ pull out across various grade levels and different IAs cycling in and out throughout the day.

They should also have team taught Honors and AP classes in MS and HS, but except for one here and there, they do not. It is all about $$$.

Which schools have it? Unfortunately, my DC’s MS does not have it.

I suggest you join Fairfax SEPTA and the 2E groups that are pushing for this.

Please explain this to me. The school system can't offer classes that are not open to students with disabilities. Has anyone filed a state complaint? They have to do whatever is needed to make these classes available to sns kids.

yes people have filed complaints and the state has sided with them, but FCPS hasn't seemed to learn.

FCPS does not have the budget to accommodate every student with an aide. They are better off fighting and losing because only a fraction will actually fight.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:At our school they seem to put all the special Ed kids in one Gen Ed class. It’s not fair to the other regular kids who get placed in with that group. The class is usually poorly behaved and the teacher is overwhelmed. This is called clustering and I thought this practice was outdated and frowned upon. Why are elementary schools clustering special Ed kids now in one class instead of spreading them out among 3 different Gen Ed classes? Can parents request for their child not to be put in the special Ed class?

And you know this because…?

DP here...Uh have you never volunteered in your school? I volunteer for lunch, in the classroom, grade wide parties. Yes, there is an aide but there is only so much they can do. You have 4-5 special ed kids some with severe emotional management issues, some who really aren't getting the curriculum etc etc. And one aide trying to put out fires, catch fires before they spread and keep this kids somewhat engaged. Meanwhile as these repeated and loud disturbances happen the teacher is trying to keep the rest of the class focused. It does breed resentment among parents and the students. My DS in 3rd grade can't stand the disruptions, the random shouting, singing, anger outbursts. As the teacher has to help the aide get these kids under control the rest of the class is left to twiddle their thumbs. We requested not to be put in an inclusion classroom. I don't see how it's fair that a handful of kids get to derail the education of the majority.

Do a have a suggestion besides for a separate school or classroom - because those are against the law?

The law needs to be revisited or, at the very least, fully funded by the Federal Government so it can be properly implemented.

+1
The situation with SPED is not sustainable

It is funded by the Feds. Idiots!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

At our ES, one SN child was asking that my son be in his class. A compliment I know, but that meant my son was with her son and the other SN students year after year. It wasn't random. The SN's parents were allowed "a say". I was not and didn't know this was happening until years later.


Parents like you are horrible for sns parents to deal with. Assuming that the class with a sns kid is somehow undesirable is vile.

I'm in favor of inclusion but should it affect my son's placement EVERY year? The other Mother determines his placement every year? Without me knowing about it

Exactly. I have a type-A rule follower and he was routinely sat next to the most disruptive kids to be a “peer model” until I asked for it to stop. Non-identified kids have needs too

I have one of these kids too and I only heard a slight grumble once early on about Larlo being difficult to work with. I quickly put a stop to that saying that it's part of school and learning for DC to work with all kinds of kids including those who don't do as well in cooperation or who may struggle with certain tasks. Sometimes kids with some types of SN think more creatively or out of the box than others and if have a partner who can pull those ideas out of that child you may one day have a cure for cancer or AIDS or global warming.

I would never ask a teacher to "stop" this grouping because it's just part of normal school and teacher's job trying to create groups that will be productive.

As a teacher, I would say you are paying a huge disservice to the kid who is supposed to serve as a peer model. I try different kinds of groupings, myself, but I like to put the motivated ones who challenge each other, together. I also place all the ones who don’t do any work together.

Glad to hear I’m not the only one who does that. 😊

Oh, gosh. That is a terrible approach. You've pretty much given up and guaranteed failure for those kids.

How? I’m differentiating for each table group versus differentiating 3 ways at the same table group (then doing it 5 more times). It’s more efficient. Plus when I mix the skills at the table, the low kids just copy of the high learners.

You should be fired.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A significant number of these posts are extremely ableist. I would encourage the posters to reevaluate wrongly held prejudices.

Ableist is a meaningless word that is just used to attack other people.

I think this ableist language is actually at the detriment to special needs individuals. My DH has bad ADHD. He would never force his coworkers to put up with it or for it to be a problem for him. He makes lists, checks them twice, has timers, reminder apps, etc. He's really successful. In fact, it helps DH a lot at work. He has incredible focus on individual tasks (he's an engineer) that is characteristic of ADHD.

Ableist means not making fun of someone or discriminating against someone. It doesn't mean that we should require kids to sit there while classmates tantrum on the floor, throw chairs and scream.

I’m not at all about wokeism, but the dominant message of this thread is that “those kids” are “dead weight” who are stealing resources from your “good kids.” It’s absolutely prejudiced and has nothing to do with your fully functioning adult husband.

and it is not the reality in most of the cases across schools in this country. Most of the classes are fine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:At our school they seem to put all the special Ed kids in one Gen Ed class. It’s not fair to the other regular kids who get placed in with that group. The class is usually poorly behaved and the teacher is overwhelmed. This is called clustering and I thought this practice was outdated and frowned upon. Why are elementary schools clustering special Ed kids now in one class instead of spreading them out among 3 different Gen Ed classes? Can parents request for their child not to be put in the special Ed class?

And you know this because…?

DP here...Uh have you never volunteered in your school? I volunteer for lunch, in the classroom, grade wide parties. Yes, there is an aide but there is only so much they can do. You have 4-5 special ed kids some with severe emotional management issues, some who really aren't getting the curriculum etc etc. And one aide trying to put out fires, catch fires before they spread and keep this kids somewhat engaged. Meanwhile as these repeated and loud disturbances happen the teacher is trying to keep the rest of the class focused. It does breed resentment among parents and the students. My DS in 3rd grade can't stand the disruptions, the random shouting, singing, anger outbursts. As the teacher has to help the aide get these kids under control the rest of the class is left to twiddle their thumbs. We requested not to be put in an inclusion classroom. I don't see how it's fair that a handful of kids get to derail the education of the majority.

Do a have a suggestion besides for a separate school or classroom - because those are against the law?

The law needs to be revisited or, at the very least, fully funded by the Federal Government so it can be properly implemented.

+1
The situation with SPED is not sustainable

It is funded by the Feds. Idiots!

no it is not

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There should be sped schools, the way they have AAP centers.

Least Restrictive Environment be like: do I mean nothing to you?

But what about the rights of the other students to learn?

Nothing is stopping them but a lot of you want to block sns children from access to a reasonable education. You think they have cooties?

NP. Why should we expect a bunch of children to put up with violence that we ourselves would NEVER put up with at the work place. If my coworker threw a chair at me or told me he wants me to die- I'd file a police report. Non violent, non disruptive children are not what we're talking about. Kids who have SN and just learn slower are perfectly fine in a classroom.

Yes, most of the time. However I have had students with IEPS for things like disruptive mood dysregulation disorder or intermittent explosive disorder.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They should do real "team taught" classes at the elementary level. Instead you have an overworked Special Ed teacher trying to handle push in/ pull out across various grade levels and different IAs cycling in and out throughout the day.

They should also have team taught Honors and AP classes in MS and HS, but except for one here and there, they do not. It is all about $$$.

Which schools have it? Unfortunately, my DC’s MS does not have it.

I suggest you join Fairfax SEPTA and the 2E groups that are pushing for this.

Please explain this to me. The school system can't offer classes that are not open to students with disabilities. Has anyone filed a state complaint? They have to do whatever is needed to make these classes available to sns kids.

yes people have filed complaints and the state has sided with them, but FCPS hasn't seemed to learn.

FCPS does not have the budget to accommodate every student with an aide. They are better off fighting and losing because only a fraction will actually fight.

not every child with and IEP needs an aide- in fact the vast majority do not. Mostly, people are asking for team taught Honors and AP options. Some just need their accommodations in the Honors or AP class (as was done with my DC).