Plane crash DCA?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:➡️ January 20: FAA director fired
➡️ January 21: Air Traffic Controller hiring frozen
➡️ January 22: Aviation Safety Advisory Committee disbanded
➡️ January 28: Buyout/retirement demand sent to existing employees
➡️ January 29: First American mid-air collision in 16 years

Making America Great Again!

So they sabotaged it? I doubt that very much. I have a higher opinion of FAA employees than you do.

Not sabotage. Stress.

Remember that one of Trump’s people said their goal was to “traumatize federal employees.”

Was this actually an ATC error? I thought it was mainly the helicopter error.

No one knows yet.

To me, it does look like some element of ATC error. It clearly was not communicating to both the helicopter and the airplane that they were headed straight for each other and need to take action.

That’s not true, the tower clearly advised the helicopter about the traffic, which plane it was and where it was going. Then they confirm visual separation. Then they actually do see it and tell the helicopter to go behind the plane. I don’t think there’s any way from what we could hear that the tower would anticipate the helicopter flying into the plane, but obviously we have limited info. But the tower does contact the helicopter before the crash.

It’s also amazing how he stayed so calm and redirected the other planes, especially that American pilot who was kind of a d$& about it.

But clearly the helicopter didn’t understand which plane the ATC had identified and that is part of the problem. We don’t know all of what was said, but it’s the ATCs job to make sure all the planes headed into the runway are aware of each other, on correct course and don’t collide, and that didn’t happen.

“PAT25, traffic just south of the Woodrow Bridge, a CRJ, it’s 1200 feet setting up for runway 33.”

Sounds pretty unambiguous to me.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CiOybe-NJHk

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Per CNN right now the BH was flying 100 feet above maximum altitude and was also off course.

ngl, a 100 foot difference in elevation in a fast moving helicopter at night will not be noticed by the pilots. Easy to subtly drift 100 feet higher.

Their eyes are not glued to the gauges, they are looking out the window trying to see airplane and other objects. If they were wearing nightvision goggles, then there's even a bigger chance they are not glued to the instruments since their peripheral vision is compromised by the goggles.

Oh please.

Your job is a military helicopter pilot of a spy helo and extraction helo. You had better know what damn altitude you are flying and hiding out at.

“‘Oh sorry guys, we got bin Laden and then I forgot to fly low and got shot down by a 80 year old Russian bazooka. Over and out.’”

You sound like my spouse who never knows how fast she’s actually going until someone else tells her to slow down or she’s pulled over.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:➡️ January 20: FAA director fired
➡️ January 21: Air Traffic Controller hiring frozen
➡️ January 22: Aviation Safety Advisory Committee disbanded
➡️ January 28: Buyout/retirement demand sent to existing employees
➡️ January 29: First American mid-air collision in 16 years

Making America Great Again!

So they sabotaged it? I doubt that very much. I have a higher opinion of FAA employees than you do.

Not sabotage. Stress.

Remember that one of Trump’s people said their goal was to “traumatize federal employees.”

Was this actually an ATC error? I thought it was mainly the helicopter error.

No one knows yet.

To me, it does look like some element of ATC error. It clearly was not communicating to both the helicopter and the airplane that they were headed straight for each other and need to take action.

That’s not true, the tower clearly advised the helicopter about the traffic, which plane it was and where it was going. Then they confirm visual separation. Then they actually do see it and tell the helicopter to go behind the plane. I don’t think there’s any way from what we could hear that the tower would anticipate the helicopter flying into the plane, but obviously we have limited info. But the tower does contact the helicopter before the crash.

It’s also amazing how he stayed so calm and redirected the other planes, especially that American pilot who was kind of a d$& about it.

But clearly the helicopter didn’t understand which plane the ATC had identified and that is part of the problem. We don’t know all of what was said, but it’s the ATCs job to make sure all the planes headed into the runway are aware of each other, on correct course and don’t collide, and that didn’t happen.

“PAT25, traffic just south of the Woodrow Bridge, a CRJ, it’s 1200 feet setting up for runway 33.”

Sounds pretty unambiguous to me.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CiOybe-NJHk

Was it repeated back by the pilot?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'd also love to know the name of any VIP who was flown over initially, requiring the return helicopter flight.

If this is ever released, I’ll be shocked.

My prediction: We will never find out who the vip was.

Doesn’t matter. Pilot in training needed hours. That BH was going out no matter what.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The CRJ was banking to the left so the helicopter was seeing the bottom of the plane where there are far fewer lights.

I think this is just a case of human error. They were looking at another plane, didn't see this one as it was coming from a different direction and flew into it. Human error is always a possible risk and that is why air spaces need to be as safe as possible and have as many contingencies as possible to account for human error and prevent tragedy. Which is usually what happens and is what happened the day before.

The investigation won't necessarily be about assigning blame but what changes need to happen to prevent this happening again.

I agree with the bolded and generally with the the idea that this is likely a case of human error for which we need to better insulate the system.

However I disagree that we can know what the helicopter pilot saw or why they did what they did at this point. I know many people, including many fellow pilots, are eager to say that this was an understandable mistake based on visibility in that corridor at this time of night. I think it is important those perspectives are heard and accounted for -- that may indeed have been what happened.

But we don't KNOW that's what happened. There are other factors here, including the helicopter's last minute maneuvers that brought it directly into collision with the airplane (veering SW and rising over 100 ft in altitude in a short period of time). To be clear, I do NOT think this is evidence that it was intentional. I just think it's weird and it's not explained by the speculation that the helicopter could not see the plane. If this were just a question of the helicopter not seeing the plane, presumably they would have maintained their current trajectory, right? The only direction they received from ATC was to go behind the plan, which even if they thought it was further away, "behind" a plane approaching either runway at National would mean moving to the east, not to the west.

There are too many unanswered questions for us to conclude what happened based on the commentary of other helicopter pilots who have flown that route. Their input is very helpful but not a full answer.

So I have a couple of thoughts on the last minute maneuvering of the helicopter. This is all pure conjecture, not stated as fact of events, more to illustrate just how much we can't possibly know at this stage.

First is to question whether there really was a bank to the right at the last second. As far as I know, that is based on the radar track from publicly available tracking sites. I can tell you for certain those tracks are not precise. They are based on intermittent pings, not continuous, and each ping has an error tolerance around it. If one ping is biased one way, and the next is off a bit the other way, it can easily look like a change in direction when the vehicle is actually traveling in a straight line. And the timing between pings can make a smooth arc look like a sharp jerk. Same issue with altitude. They only report 100s of feet, so a "climb" from 200 to 300 might actually mean they wavered a little from 230 to 260 ft. The videos mostly seem to show the helicopter in level flight, so I'm not actually sure what is right.

More precise data, which the NTSB will have access to, should answer that question.

Second is one plausible explanation if there was an actual jerk to the right. Let's say (remember, conjecture here, not statement of fact) they were initially fixated on the wrong airplane, or even a tower light somewhere in the distance that they thought was the plane. Then, at the last second, one of the pilots saw the actual plane closing in from the left. I don't care if you were told to go behind it - if you realize a collision is imminent, it's human nature to yank the controls away from the object you think you'll hit. Unfortunately, that only works for avoiding a static object, not a moving one. In this case, yanking the controls away from a plane that (from their perspective) suddenly appeared at their left could have meant a sharp bank to the right, which actually could have put them in the path of the very plane they were trying to avoid. Human instincts don't work well in 3D - ask anyone who has learned formation flight how much training it takes - and in a split-secomd panic situation people often revert to instinct. If that is the scenario (or anything like it), I'm not saying it absolves the crew of responsibility; just giving a possible explanation that doesn't involve suicide or mass murder. Unfortunately, unless the pilot verbalized this and it was caught on a recorder, we'll probably never know WHY they started the bank (if they actually did).

[Anonymous]

Actually listen to this one: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=r90Xw3tQC0I

They immediately confirm and then request visual separation:
“PAT25, traffic just south of the Woodrow Bridge, a CRJ, it’s 1200 feet setting up for runway 33.”
“PAT25 has the traffic in sight, request visual separation”

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That POS president has taken away her family, her friends, the public's right to mourn her. Shame on him! He needs to go back to h#ll where he came from.

I'm no trump supporter but he hasn't done that. Her family chose to hide this information from the public who have a right to know. More importantly, the families of those killed because of her error (if it was actually unintentional), deserve to know who caused them to lose their family member. Her mistake cost lives and saying it would affect her family doesn't cut it.

We do not know it was her mistake alone - there were 3 people who were not paying attention to their surroundings, according to control tower communications. Let the investigation go through. Your assumptions and anger are a cover for something else.

That she supports the felon despite her protests. People want her name so they can tar and feather her reputation and tell her family what trash she is. Just wait.

By not releasing her name they are making it worse because people are already angry that this shouldn't have happened and now it looks like a cover up.

No, they are not. You’re just obsessed with the one piece of info and others are not.

Touch grass.

lol.

Yeah we all want to know who had their hands on the main thruster, nose angle and rudder.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That POS president has taken away her family, her friends, the public's right to mourn her. Shame on him! He needs to go back to h#ll where he came from.

I'm no trump supporter but he hasn't done that. Her family chose to hide this information from the public who have a right to know. More importantly, the families of those killed because of her error (if it was actually unintentional), deserve to know who caused them to lose their family member. Her mistake cost lives and saying it would affect her family doesn't cut it.

So you’re assuming it was just her error, and hers alone. Go away, you miserable excuse for a human being.

DP. We don’t know whose “fault” is was, but when the military helicopter you are flying is flown directly into a commercial jet, killing 64 people, you aren’t owed privacy, especially when the other two in the helicopter have been named

+1 Exactly! And it suggests that they know it was her fault.

Just trying to contemplate the type of thinking that goes in to typing this sentence, and I’m coming up empty. It is complete nonsense.

It's not nonsense. I would not want all the speculation that occurs whrn people try to keep the facts hidden.

That’s not what was written. What was written is that this indicates with certainty that “they know it was her fault.” Nonsense. It’s the family’s decision, not the military’s. But I’m sure the department will leak the name soon enough.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That POS president has taken away her family, her friends, the public's right to mourn her. Shame on him! He needs to go back to h#ll where he came from.

I'm no trump supporter but he hasn't done that. Her family chose to hide this information from the public who have a right to know. More importantly, the families of those killed because of her error (if it was actually unintentional), deserve to know who caused them to lose their family member. Her mistake cost lives and saying it would affect her family doesn't cut it.

We do not know it was her mistake alone - there were 3 people who were not paying attention to their surroundings, according to control tower communications. Let the investigation go through. Your assumptions and anger are a cover for something else.

That she supports the felon despite her protests. People want her name so they can tar and feather her reputation and tell her family what trash she is. Just wait.

By not releasing her name they are making it worse because people are already angry that this shouldn't have happened and now it looks like a cover up.

No, they are not. You’re just obsessed with the one piece of info and others are not.

Touch grass.

You can't prevent others from engaging in speculation. Hiding info makes it worse.

And 9 times out of 10 it IS worse.

Can’t tell if a lawyer is guiding the family to do this or they’re winging it here. Either way it’s not going to make anything better for anyone, including them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'd also love to know the name of any VIP who was flown over initially, requiring the return helicopter flight.

If this is ever released, I’ll be shocked.

My prediction: We will never find out who the vip was.

Doesn’t matter. Pilot in training needed hours. That BH was going out no matter what.

That is completely, 100 percent, utterly false.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'd also love to know the name of any VIP who was flown over initially, requiring the return helicopter flight.

If this is ever released, I’ll be shocked.

My prediction: We will never find out who the vip was.

Doesn’t matter. Pilot in training needed hours. That BH was going out no matter what.

It DOES matter. If Trump was flying people in and out on helos unnecessarily causing a glut when these trainings would normally happen at different hours or when tower wasn't understaffed, it actually matters a lot.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:➡️ January 20: FAA director fired
➡️ January 21: Air Traffic Controller hiring frozen
➡️ January 22: Aviation Safety Advisory Committee disbanded
➡️ January 28: Buyout/retirement demand sent to existing employees
➡️ January 29: First American mid-air collision in 16 years

Making America Great Again!

So they sabotaged it? I doubt that very much. I have a higher opinion of FAA employees than you do.

Not sabotage. Stress.

Remember that one of Trump’s people said their goal was to “traumatize federal employees.”

Was this actually an ATC error? I thought it was mainly the helicopter error.

No one knows yet.

To me, it does look like some element of ATC error. It clearly was not communicating to both the helicopter and the airplane that they were headed straight for each other and need to take action.

That’s not true, the tower clearly advised the helicopter about the traffic, which plane it was and where it was going. Then they confirm visual separation. Then they actually do see it and tell the helicopter to go behind the plane. I don’t think there’s any way from what we could hear that the tower would anticipate the helicopter flying into the plane, but obviously we have limited info. But the tower does contact the helicopter before the crash.

It’s also amazing how he stayed so calm and redirected the other planes, especially that American pilot who was kind of a d$& about it.

But clearly the helicopter didn’t understand which plane the ATC had identified and that is part of the problem. We don’t know all of what was said, but it’s the ATCs job to make sure all the planes headed into the runway are aware of each other, on correct course and don’t collide, and that didn’t happen.

“PAT25, traffic just south of the Woodrow Bridge, a CRJ, it’s 1200 feet setting up for runway 33.”

Sounds pretty unambiguous to me.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CiOybe-NJHk

“Setting up for runway 33” implies a plane is swinging out (dog tailing) to the east a bit to align with runway 33 (oh, where is that? Oh I see), and then will land.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Actually listen to this one: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=r90Xw3tQC0I

They immediately confirm and then request visual separation:
“PAT25, traffic just south of the Woodrow Bridge, a CRJ, it’s 1200 feet setting up for runway 33.”
“PAT25 has the traffic in sight, request visual separation”

I think they saw it. And then somehow lost it. I’ve seen enough pilots interviewed to believe this is not only possible but very plausible.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Per CNN right now the BH was flying 100 feet above maximum altitude and was also off course.

ngl, a 100 foot difference in elevation in a fast moving helicopter at night will not be noticed by the pilots. Easy to subtly drift 100 feet higher.

Their eyes are not glued to the gauges, they are looking out the window trying to see airplane and other objects. If they were wearing nightvision goggles, then there's even a bigger chance they are not glued to the instruments since their peripheral vision is compromised by the goggles.

Oh please.

Your job is a military helicopter pilot of a spy helo and extraction helo. You had better know what damn altitude you are flying and hiding out at.

“‘Oh sorry guys, we got bin Laden and then I forgot to fly low and got shot down by a 80 year old Russian bazooka. Over and out.’”

You sound like my spouse who never knows how fast she’s actually going until someone else tells her to slow down or she’s pulled over.

It’s not like they are flying in an urban area or near other airports. Flying around the desert NBD.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are numerous BH pilots saying it was the primary job of the white guy sitting in the back to make sure the area around the BH was clear. I also read that it often is 2 in back although 3 can be done. But doesn’t make sense in this airspace.

Yeah and?

What does the back crew guy do with the PIC, with one hand on cyclical, other hand on collective, and her feet on the rotors, juts up 150 ft off course and veers into middle of river suddenly right when a commercial jet descends there?

Btw this easily could have happened at runway 1 thirty seconds more down river.

This is exactly what will happen with MAGA. They’ll ignore the experts and pull $hit out of their ass to make up some narrative that of course she was a DEI hire, despite absolutely no evidence of it. The men who are alive and knew her won’t speak up on her behalf because there’s a hatred for women in the military as of 1/20/25.

Just the ones that kill 70 people in mid air.

So you’ve already tried her with all the military evidence you have, and found that not only is she guilty, but a “killer?!” Are you already trashing the two white men who did nothing to stop a helicopter that was too high, and off course in line with DCA’s runway?

As soon as you read that last sentence, is your mind now scrambling to make up more damning reasons to blame this accident solely on the actions of a single person, outside of any higher ups who gave orders, or any other culpable parties because she has to be a DEI hire for the very reason she dared to be a woman in the military?

She was in charge it’s mostly her fault.