UVA in-state v. Davidson v. Washington and Lee

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP - It really depends on what it means to your family to spend this money.

My VA kid was absolutely opposed to going to UVA. It was a bad fit for him, and it attracts a kind of kid who he doesn't much care for. He went to an OOS flagship that is a much better fit (but we don't have the $$ for full fees private).

Those are two very good private colleges and they do offer something UVA does not, so it really comes down to opportunity cost:

a) borrowing!!!! scary.
b) no funds to help with grand school?
c) will be living lean for 4 years, which might affect internships and other opportunities
d) other children....

we can't answer that.

So very curious as to the kind of kids your VA kid doesn't care for?

There's nothing wrong with VA kids but just wrong for my kid. UVA is a fairly conservative school that attracts kids, in-state and out who want to join frats and have that joe-college kind of experience. Nothing wrong with them, just wrong for him. (And please don't argue that there are all kinds of kids there because there's no point in working hard to pick a college if none of them have anything special about the product they offer. This is just one that is not for him.)

Good luck to your kid, truly. But you can’t make a sweeping generalization about 30K students being into fraternities. And UVA conservative? LOL!

[b]Over 60% consider themselves moderate, conservative, or very conservative. Only 35% consider themselves democrats. For college kids, that is glaringly conservative

[/b]
Source? Typically when you have a large state university, it reflects the state. Virginia's schools are fairly middle of the road as colleges go, but colleges in general are left of center compared to the overall population. There is an online ranking based on political affiliation of students and here is where Virginia colleges came in for "most Liberal" out of 504 schools:

62 VCU
220 JMU
245 W&M
280 VT
286 UVA
320 MWU
343 GMU
407 ODU
435 CNU
463 VMI

No,we want a real source for the bolded section above. I have a conservative kid at UVA and the stats you give are simply not true.

I didn't put the original quote in. I cited a ranking purportedly based on political affiliation data. It shows UVA as comparatively middle of the road. https://www.myplan.com/education/colleges/college_rankings_14.php

This is just so incorrect. I asked my UVA student who is home on break (not on a yacht in the Bahamas) and who is very active in political groups on campus. HE says UVA is the reverse of what the bolded section says.

That is a relief to hear pp!! My gay kid has committed to UVA and would be very unhappy if the bolded were true.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If the concern is your kid wants an SLAC type of experience and UVA is too big, I'd look at W&M. It is larger than W&L and Davidson (closer to Dartmouth and Brown size), but it is a great LAC alternative and it would have a significant cost advantage.

If you think Davidson or W&L is going to provide a leg up on medical school compared to UVA (or W&M) all things being equal, I don't think that is the case. Regardless of where they go, your kid will have to buckle down and work hard and they'll have to have a really good GPA and MCAT. Top, top privates like the Ivy League may provide some advantage because they have the highest average GPAs (the highest grade inflation), but admission is a crap shoot there.

I'd agree with comment on William & Mary as a good alternative, but I assume they've already submitted applications.

Yep. As someone who ended up at W&M (and loved my undergrad experience) but also considered Davidson, I think they attract a fairly similar type of student and if cost is a factor, a kid attracted to Davidson would probably also thrive at W&M.

And I would also say that if they really like Davidson, it is probably good they didn't end up at W&L. Although a very good school, I think W&L is better for a different type of kid than Davidson.

More alike than not. I went to Davidson and my brother went to W&L and I spent a lot of time at both. Our friend groups were remarkably similar. We’d kill them in pretty much every sport though.

OK. I thought of W&L as much more Greek and more conservative.

At Davidson some of my friends were “Greek”, some weren’t. I’d defy anyone to tell them apart based on how they spoke or acted or performed in class. The friends who weren’t Greek could be found at most of the same parties. Not saying they aren’t different places because every school is in some way different from any other. But the notion that a person couldn’t be happy at both of these institutions is overstating it. My brother was not conservative and not Greek and had a great experience. He still wears the stupid trident belt everywhere.

[Anonymous]

Davidson but all three are good

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP - It really depends on what it means to your family to spend this money.

My VA kid was absolutely opposed to going to UVA. It was a bad fit for him, and it attracts a kind of kid who he doesn't much care for. He went to an OOS flagship that is a much better fit (but we don't have the $$ for full fees private).

Those are two very good private colleges and they do offer something UVA does not, so it really comes down to opportunity cost:

a) borrowing!!!! scary.
b) no funds to help with grand school?
c) will be living lean for 4 years, which might affect internships and other opportunities
d) other children....

we can't answer that.

So very curious as to the kind of kids your VA kid doesn't care for?

There's nothing wrong with VA kids but just wrong for my kid. UVA is a fairly conservative school that attracts kids, in-state and out who want to join frats and have that joe-college kind of experience. Nothing wrong with them, just wrong for him. (And please don't argue that there are all kinds of kids there because there's no point in working hard to pick a college if none of them have anything special about the product they offer. This is just one that is not for him.)

Good luck to your kid, truly. But you can’t make a sweeping generalization about 30K students being into fraternities. And UVA conservative? LOL!

[b]Over 60% consider themselves moderate, conservative, or very conservative. Only 35% consider themselves democrats. For college kids, that is glaringly conservative

[/b]
Source? Typically when you have a large state university, it reflects the state. Virginia's schools are fairly middle of the road as colleges go, but colleges in general are left of center compared to the overall population. There is an online ranking based on political affiliation of students and here is where Virginia colleges came in for "most Liberal" out of 504 schools:

62 VCU
220 JMU
245 W&M
280 VT
286 UVA
320 MWU
343 GMU
407 ODU
435 CNU
463 VMI

No,we want a real source for the bolded section above. I have a conservative kid at UVA and the stats you give are simply not true.

I didn't put the original quote in. I cited a ranking purportedly based on political affiliation data. It shows UVA as comparatively middle of the road. https://www.myplan.com/education/colleges/college_rankings_14.php

This is just so incorrect. I asked my UVA student who is home on break (not on a yacht in the Bahamas) and who is very active in political groups on campus. HE says UVA is the reverse of what the bolded section says.

That is a relief to hear pp!! My gay kid has committed to UVA and would be very unhappy if the bolded were true.

Just look at this. No problems for gay children at UVA. https://news.virginia.edu/content/10-years-love-love-uva-see-how-valentines-day-tradition-began

[Anonymous]

Davidson has the lowest acceptance rate of the three schools. Davidson and W&L are small, wealthy, private LAC’s with a small, highly selective student body. UVA is a huge public school with tens of thousands of students. Davidson and W&L have a far more personalized 8-1 student-to-teacher ratio, while UVA has a 14-1 student-to-teacher ratio. Davidson focuses exclusively on undergraduate students, while UVA and W&L have significant graduate programs which can occasionally take priority over the undergraduates in terms of resources. W&L is an NCAA Division III sports school, while UVA and Davidson are NCAA Division I schools. (Davidson is one of the smallest Divisions I schools in America). Davidson is ranked in the top ten LAC’s in America by US News. W&L is tied at #11. UVA is ranked #25 in the University category, but that includes graduate programs, not exclusively undergraduate. Overall, Davidson has a slightly edge. As mentioned here, most Americans have never heard of Davidson or W&L. But the people who count in the academic world, and major firms, have. And they count more than the general public.

[Anonymous]

We were surprised how much we liked Davidson (the town and college). Very strong academics. It has an impressive honor code. Easy access to an airport.

We did hear about grade deflation though (i.e., tour guide said he had some teachers who believed no one deserves an A, for example)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Davidson has the lowest acceptance rate of the three schools. Davidson and W&L are small, wealthy, private LAC’s with a small, highly selective student body. UVA is a huge public school with tens of thousands of students. Davidson and W&L have a far more personalized 8-1 student-to-teacher ratio, while UVA has a 14-1 student-to-teacher ratio. Davidson focuses exclusively on undergraduate students, while UVA and W&L have significant graduate programs which can occasionally take priority over the undergraduates in terms of resources. W&L is an NCAA Division III sports school, while UVA and Davidson are NCAA Division I schools. (Davidson is one of the smallest Divisions I schools in America). Davidson is ranked in the top ten LAC’s in America by US News. W&L is tied at #11. UVA is ranked #25 in the University category, but that includes graduate programs, not exclusively undergraduate. Overall, Davidson has a slightly edge. As mentioned here, most Americans have never heard of Davidson or W&L. But the people who count in the academic world, and major firms, have. And they count more than the general public.

Nice post. One quibble: W&L grad component is the law school which is entirely distinct and has zero impact on undergrad impact.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Davidson has the lowest acceptance rate of the three schools. Davidson and W&L are small, wealthy, private LAC’s with a small, highly selective student body. UVA is a huge public school with tens of thousands of students. Davidson and W&L have a far more personalized 8-1 student-to-teacher ratio, while UVA has a 14-1 student-to-teacher ratio. Davidson focuses exclusively on undergraduate students, while UVA and W&L have significant graduate programs which can occasionally take priority over the undergraduates in terms of resources. W&L is an NCAA Division III sports school, while UVA and Davidson are NCAA Division I schools. (Davidson is one of the smallest Divisions I schools in America). Davidson is ranked in the top ten LAC’s in America by US News. W&L is tied at #11. UVA is ranked #25 in the University category, but that includes graduate programs, not exclusively undergraduate. Overall, Davidson has a slightly edge. As mentioned here, most Americans have never heard of Davidson or W&L. But the people who count in the academic world, and major firms, have. And they count more than the general public.

Nice post. One quibble: W&L grad component is the law school which is entirely distinct and has zero impact on undergrad impact.

Undergrad *experience*. Sorry.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Davidson has the lowest acceptance rate of the three schools. Davidson and W&L are small, wealthy, private LAC’s with a small, highly selective student body. UVA is a huge public school with tens of thousands of students. Davidson and W&L have a far more personalized 8-1 student-to-teacher ratio, while UVA has a 14-1 student-to-teacher ratio. Davidson focuses exclusively on undergraduate students, while UVA and W&L have significant graduate programs which can occasionally take priority over the undergraduates in terms of resources. W&L is an NCAA Division III sports school, while UVA and Davidson are NCAA Division I schools. (Davidson is one of the smallest Divisions I schools in America). Davidson is ranked in the top ten LAC’s in America by US News. W&L is tied at #11. UVA is ranked #25 in the University category, but that includes graduate programs, not exclusively undergraduate. Overall, Davidson has a slightly edge. As mentioned here, most Americans have never heard of Davidson or W&L. But the people who count in the academic world, and major firms, have. And they count more than the general public.

Nice post. One quibble: W&L grad component is the law school which is entirely distinct and has zero impact on undergrad impact.

Undergrad *experience*. Sorry.

I don't think Davidson has a slight edge over W&L. W&L has generally had higher standardized test scores, and I've also seen better rankings in ROI. W&L and Davidson are, as noted, quite different to UVA.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Davidson has the lowest acceptance rate of the three schools. Davidson and W&L are small, wealthy, private LAC’s with a small, highly selective student body. UVA is a huge public school with tens of thousands of students. Davidson and W&L have a far more personalized 8-1 student-to-teacher ratio, while UVA has a 14-1 student-to-teacher ratio. Davidson focuses exclusively on undergraduate students, while UVA and W&L have significant graduate programs which can occasionally take priority over the undergraduates in terms of resources. W&L is an NCAA Division III sports school, while UVA and Davidson are NCAA Division I schools. (Davidson is one of the smallest Divisions I schools in America). Davidson is ranked in the top ten LAC’s in America by US News. W&L is tied at #11. UVA is ranked #25 in the University category, but that includes graduate programs, not exclusively undergraduate. Overall, Davidson has a slightly edge. As mentioned here, most Americans have never heard of Davidson or W&L. But the people who count in the academic world, and major firms, have. And they count more than the general public.

Nice post. One quibble: W&L grad component is the law school which is entirely distinct and has zero impact on undergrad impact.

Undergrad *experience*. Sorry.

I don't think Davidson has a slight edge over W&L. W&L has generally had higher standardized test scores, and I've also seen better rankings in ROI. W&L and Davidson are, as noted, quite different to UVA.

W&L also has an endowment that is considerably larger than that of Davidson.

[Anonymous]

Davidson and W&L are boutique and prestigious, with a much lower acceptance rate than UVA, which is a huge public school. At Davidson and W&L, classes are generally much smaller, with a lot of personal attention. For undergrad, Davidson and W&L have big advantages. UVA is a good place to get your Masters and PhD.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What does he want to study/do with his degree OP?

Is he the kind of kid that will get lost at a bigger school or is he good at getting involved, asserting himself, pursuing opportunities?

One big advantage of the SLACs is that they don't let your kid fail or hide in the back and never interact with professors. That's helped my kid at an SLAC a lot - I think he'd get lost and be invisible at a larger school like UVA. (and he chose his SLAC over being a UVA Echols scholar and I think it's been money well-spent)

He is thinking pre-med. I am less worried about him at the larger school compared to his older siblings, but I agree with you whole-heartedly on the closer student-faculty interaction at SLACs. He will get involved - or so we think. If the costs were comparable it'd be an easier decision to chose the private alternative, but with a six figure difference in the total four year cost, we are obviously torn.

Then I’d absolutely choose UVA. My brother went to Davidson and I never got the impression there is much of a science focus. Go to a university with large research facilities and labs. Also save your money for grad school! It would be one thing if your child was accepted to Harvard. But Davidson? Not worth the premium. Fwiw I’ve also been unimpressed with what Davidson grads have done. While many went to grad school I got the impression it was because they had to. A number of his friends were artists, BS jobs, in non profit, etc. which is fine but not if you’re upper middle class and just paid $280k for your child to attend school and not even end up in a professional career.

This! I've stated this more bluntly elsewhere "The point of college is to get a job" and gotten yelled at by some uppity DCUM'ers! With everything in life, we see value when we part with our money. Why don't we do this as a matter of routine when it comes to college? Boggles the mind.. Every school should be obligated to publish salaries for each undergrad, grad and Phd program - Starting, one year out, 5 years out and 10 years out.

[Anonymous]

You are responding to a very old thread

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What does he want to study/do with his degree OP?

Is he the kind of kid that will get lost at a bigger school or is he good at getting involved, asserting himself, pursuing opportunities?

One big advantage of the SLACs is that they don't let your kid fail or hide in the back and never interact with professors. That's helped my kid at an SLAC a lot - I think he'd get lost and be invisible at a larger school like UVA. (and he chose his SLAC over being a UVA Echols scholar and I think it's been money well-spent)

He is thinking pre-med. I am less worried about him at the larger school compared to his older siblings, but I agree with you whole-heartedly on the closer student-faculty interaction at SLACs. He will get involved - or so we think. If the costs were comparable it'd be an easier decision to chose the private alternative, but with a six figure difference in the total four year cost, we are obviously torn.

Then I’d absolutely choose UVA. My brother went to Davidson and I never got the impression there is much of a science focus. Go to a university with large research facilities and labs. Also save your money for grad school! It would be one thing if your child was accepted to Harvard. But Davidson? Not worth the premium. Fwiw I’ve also been unimpressed with what Davidson grads have done. While many went to grad school I got the impression it was because they had to. A number of his friends were artists, BS jobs, in non profit, etc. which is fine but not if you’re upper middle class and just paid $280k for your child to attend school and not even end up in a professional career.

This! I've stated this more bluntly elsewhere "The point of college is to get a job" and gotten yelled at by some uppity DCUM'ers! With everything in life, we see value when we part with our money. Why don't we do this as a matter of routine when it comes to college? Boggles the mind.. Every school should be obligated to publish salaries for each undergrad, grad and Phd program - Starting, one year out, 5 years out and 10 years out.

This is an old thread. But if earning money is what you care about, go to W&L, not UVA. It isn't even close:

W&L
- Median Earnings: $77,600
- Expected Earnings (based on majors of graduates and selectivity): $60,400
- Value Add (Median - Expected earnings): $17,200
- 40 year projected NPV (factors costs and income): $1.578M

UVA
- Median Earnings: $58,600
- Expected Earnings: $61,000
- Value Add: Negative $2,400
- 40 year projected NPV: $1.291M

Davidson
- Median Earnings: $58,500
- Expected Earnings: $58,000
- Value Add: $500
- 40 year projected NPV: $1.227M


https://cew.georgetown.edu/cew-reports/collegeroi/
https://cew.georgetown.edu/cew-reports/college-rankings/#interactive

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What does he want to study/do with his degree OP?

Is he the kind of kid that will get lost at a bigger school or is he good at getting involved, asserting himself, pursuing opportunities?

One big advantage of the SLACs is that they don't let your kid fail or hide in the back and never interact with professors. That's helped my kid at an SLAC a lot - I think he'd get lost and be invisible at a larger school like UVA. (and he chose his SLAC over being a UVA Echols scholar and I think it's been money well-spent)

He is thinking pre-med. I am less worried about him at the larger school compared to his older siblings, but I agree with you whole-heartedly on the closer student-faculty interaction at SLACs. He will get involved - or so we think. If the costs were comparable it'd be an easier decision to chose the private alternative, but with a six figure difference in the total four year cost, we are obviously torn.

Then I’d absolutely choose UVA. My brother went to Davidson and I never got the impression there is much of a science focus. Go to a university with large research facilities and labs. Also save your money for grad school! It would be one thing if your child was accepted to Harvard. But Davidson? Not worth the premium. Fwiw I’ve also been unimpressed with what Davidson grads have done. While many went to grad school I got the impression it was because they had to. A number of his friends were artists, BS jobs, in non profit, etc. which is fine but not if you’re upper middle class and just paid $280k for your child to attend school and not even end up in a professional career.

This! I've stated this more bluntly elsewhere "The point of college is to get a job" and gotten yelled at by some uppity DCUM'ers! With everything in life, we see value when we part with our money. Why don't we do this as a matter of routine when it comes to college? Boggles the mind.. Every school should be obligated to publish salaries for each undergrad, grad and Phd program - Starting, one year out, 5 years out and 10 years out.

This is an old thread. But if earning money is what you care about, go to W&L, not UVA. It isn't even close:

W&L
- Median Earnings: $77,600
- Expected Earnings (based on majors of graduates and selectivity): $60,400
- Value Add (Median - Expected earnings): $17,200
- 40 year projected NPV (factors costs and income): $1.578M

UVA
- Median Earnings: $58,600
- Expected Earnings: $61,000
- Value Add: Negative $2,400
- 40 year projected NPV: $1.291M

Davidson
- Median Earnings: $58,500
- Expected Earnings: $58,000
- Value Add: $500
- 40 year projected NPV: $1.227M


https://cew.georgetown.edu/cew-reports/collegeroi/
https://cew.georgetown.edu/cew-reports/college-rankings/#interactive

No, and we toured. Drinking is way out of control. The Greek life predominates everything on campus. W&L is too expensive to begin with - then you have to add in the cost of participating in a frat or sorority. Plus it has Lee's horse. No. Didn't even apply