UVA in-state v. Davidson v. Washington and Lee

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In light of the current economic situation, UVA in-state. No question.

W&L ROI is much better.

False equivalence, which you know if you are affiliated with W&L. First, most W&L students are scions of wealthy southern legacy families who help their students place out into good paying jobs or they use the Greek system to place out into Wall Street or other high paying jobs. Second, as you know, many students at UVA go there to major in lower to middle income careers like teaching, nursing and middle level bureaucrat positions out if the Batten School m. They dedicate their lives to serving community not making money in Wall Street. Third, graduates of W&L are almost always alcoholics which takes its toll later in luge, if the make it to graduation at all ( you don’t want me to post those stories about alcohol related deaths.

Lord you’re a moron. UVA grad?[/quote]


Actually I went to Harvard but I taught at W&L

[Anonymous]

This incident was a true tragedy for all involved. https://www.roanoke.com/news/virginia/drunken-driver-in-crash-that-killed-w-l-classmate-to-serve-3-years/article_04e2fbc4-a08c-5b07-a8cc-1776a45d7521.html

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, this brochure is given out at the W&L freshman orientation (along with shot glasses).

file:///C:/Users/Mom/Documents/Personal/9tmstruct%20(1).pdf

Of course, now that will all have to happen online, somehow

Can't open but truly sad if W&L actually hands out shot-glasses in light of the deaths that took place there due to drinking/ http://www.collegiatetimes.com/news/state/washington-and-lee-students-involved-in-car-accident-killed/article_ec9f1981-01e6-5685-8c3d-6a971bf547ec.html

OMG-she was KIDDING about the shot glasses.

The link was to a brochure explaining the structure of competitions to get onto the United States olympic LUGE team. She was trying to inject some levity into these tiring fights about whose school is worst and which graduates are most alcoholic/moronic...

Keep up people!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, this brochure is given out at the W&L freshman orientation (along with shot glasses).

file:///C:/Users/Mom/Documents/Personal/9tmstruct%20(1).pdf

Of course, now that will all have to happen online, somehow

Can't open but truly sad if W&L actually hands out shot-glasses in light of the deaths that took place there due to drinking/ http://www.collegiatetimes.com/news/state/washington-and-lee-students-involved-in-car-accident-killed/article_ec9f1981-01e6-5685-8c3d-6a971bf547ec.html

OMG-she was KIDDING about the shot glasses.

The link was to a brochure explaining the structure of competitions to get onto the United States olympic LUGE team. She was trying to inject some levity into these tiring fights about whose school is worst and which graduates are most alcoholic/moronic...

Keep up people!

You can't open it. Considering the greek problem and the alcohol problem at W&L (which starts Thursday night and runs until Monday morning), how would one know?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In light of the current economic situation, UVA in-state. No question.

W&L ROI is much better.

False equivalence, which you know if you are affiliated with W&L. First, most W&L students are scions of wealthy southern legacy families who help their students place out into good paying jobs or they use the Greek system to place out into Wall Street or other high paying jobs. Second, as you know, many students at UVA go there to major in lower to middle income careers like teaching, nursing and middle level bureaucrat positions out if the Batten School m. They dedicate their lives to serving community not making money in Wall Street. Third, graduates of W&L are almost always alcoholics which takes its toll later in luge, if the make it to graduation at all ( you don’t want me to post those stories about alcohol related deaths.

Lord you’re a moron. UVA grad?[/quote]


Actually I went to Harvard but I taught at W&L

You argue a higher percentage of UVA grads choose majors that lead to lower to middle income careers. The following value add analysis controls for the mix of majors of graduates in the expected early career earnings. It also controls for selectivity. W&L graduates earn $77,600 median vs expected of $60,400 for a value add of positive $17,200. UVA graduates earn $58,600 median vs. $61,000 expected for a value add of negative $2,400 per year. The value add differential is $19,600 a year in favor of W&L.

https://cew.georgetown.edu/cew-reports/college-rankings/#interactive

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In light of the current economic situation, UVA in-state. No question.

W&L ROI is much better.

False equivalence, which you know if you are affiliated with W&L. First, most W&L students are scions of wealthy southern legacy families who help their students place out into good paying jobs or they use the Greek system to place out into Wall Street or other high paying jobs. Second, as you know, many students at UVA go there to major in lower to middle income careers like teaching, nursing and middle level bureaucrat positions out if the Batten School m. They dedicate their lives to serving community not making money in Wall Street. Third, graduates of W&L are almost always alcoholics which takes its toll later in luge, if the make it to graduation at all ( you don’t want me to post those stories about alcohol related deaths.

Lord you’re a moron. UVA grad?[/quote]


Actually I went to Harvard but I taught at W&L

I am Santa Claus.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In light of the current economic situation, UVA in-state. No question.

W&L ROI is much better.

False equivalence, which you know if you are affiliated with W&L. First, most W&L students are scions of wealthy southern legacy families who help their students place out into good paying jobs or they use the Greek system to place out into Wall Street or other high paying jobs. Second, as you know, many students at UVA go there to major in lower to middle income careers like teaching, nursing and middle level bureaucrat positions out if the Batten School m. They dedicate their lives to serving community not making money in Wall Street. Third, graduates of W&L are almost always alcoholics which takes its toll later in luge, if the make it to graduation at all ( you don’t want me to post those stories about alcohol related deaths.

Lord you’re a moron. UVA grad?[/quote]


Actually I went to Harvard but I taught at W&L

I am Santa Claus.

Ask me anything.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In light of the current economic situation, UVA in-state. No question.

W&L ROI is much better.

This is incorrect for the reasons given above - the student body and its chosen fields (teaching, nursing, mid-level government service) are quite different. Also, the PP fails to notice what the financial difference would be to the student if the student went to UVA and the parents banked the difference (which we did). We did tour both. We are a donut hole family and received no merit or financial aid offers anywhere. DD applied to 9 institutions, was accepted at five and chose UVA in-state (phew!).

If DS went to W&L this fall, the tuition is $77,600 (not including health is., travel and greek membership). BUT W&L is the only institution that I am aware of that posts the COSTS OF GREEK participation right with the COA: "The average cost for all necessary expenses mentioned above does not include health insurance, travel costs, or fraternity/sorority membership. Fraternity / sorority charges for first-years in 2018-2019 averaged $1,330 for men and $610 for women. Fraternity / sorority charges for upper-division students averaged $4,765 for men, $1,250 for women, with room and board charges adding approximately $3,420 to 10,485 for men and $3,250 to 13,925 for women. Board plans for Live-Out Sorority members was $3,250 for the year." W&L does this because 74% of the students participate in Greek life at W&L (a deal killer for DS).

So, taking $77,600 and adding on $1000 for health, $3K for travel, and $1330 for first year greek involvement plus $2000 for off-campus meals and drink and you have easily $86K a year. The projected four year sticker price (adding on the $5K for greek participation in later years plus the insane ratcheting up of prices every year for SLACs) gives us probably $400K for all four years. Most of us don't have savings to cover all that, so let's say you are paying as we are with after-tax dollars, that means we have to make $800K to afford $400k to send DD to W&L.

In contrast, we are paying $16K a year for in-state tuition at UVA (yes, yes, housing and food, but she lives in an apartment with four others, cooks herown meals and has no car). We are probably expending $25K per year total for UVA. We locked in at the $16K rate and we cover DD with our own health care policy.

If we spent $100k at UVA instate, then we head to spend $200K to make that happen. (don't start on savings, the college funds were decimated by the last recession plus we have care issues with elder grandparents and a SN kid).

$800k - $200K equals $600 savings over four years. If you invested that money, at 7.5% for 20 years you would have $2.5M to pass on to your child. https://www.budgetworksheets.org/invest/invest.php?amount=600,000. In our case, we, fortunately, banked the difference so now can afford grad school (Oxford) overseas for DD. She also wants to go to law school someday. That's now $105K a year x 3 years. Spending all that money on a SLAC no longer makes any sense IMHO.

[Anonymous]

Stop citing the Georgetown "study" which has Georgetown ranked #1.

No one believes a study that has Yale ranked #178 while ranking its own school #1.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Stop citing the Georgetown "study" which has Georgetown ranked #1.

No one believes a study that has Yale ranked #178 while ranking its own school #1.

Don't like the conclusion, eh? The Economist and Brookings produced their own studies based on the same data set. The conclusions were very similar (W&L was actually #1 in the Economist value add study). I didn't cite those because the Economist is subscription and Brookings requires you to enter your e-mail.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In light of the current economic situation, UVA in-state. No question.

W&L ROI is much better.

This is incorrect for the reasons given above - the student body and its chosen fields (teaching, nursing, mid-level government service) are quite different. Also, the PP fails to notice what the financial difference would be to the student if the student went to UVA and the parents banked the difference (which we did). We did tour both. We are a donut hole family and received no merit or financial aid offers anywhere. DD applied to 9 institutions, was accepted at five and chose UVA in-state (phew!).

If DS went to W&L this fall, the tuition is $77,600 (not including health is., travel and greek membership). BUT W&L is the only institution that I am aware of that posts the COSTS OF GREEK participation right with the COA: "The average cost for all necessary expenses mentioned above does not include health insurance, travel costs, or fraternity/sorority membership. Fraternity / sorority charges for first-years in 2018-2019 averaged $1,330 for men and $610 for women. Fraternity / sorority charges for upper-division students averaged $4,765 for men, $1,250 for women, with room and board charges adding approximately $3,420 to 10,485 for men and $3,250 to 13,925 for women. Board plans for Live-Out Sorority members was $3,250 for the year." W&L does this because 74% of the students participate in Greek life at W&L (a deal killer for DS).

So, taking $77,600 and adding on $1000 for health, $3K for travel, and $1330 for first year greek involvement plus $2000 for off-campus meals and drink and you have easily $86K a year. The projected four year sticker price (adding on the $5K for greek participation in later years plus the insane ratcheting up of prices every year for SLACs) gives us probably $400K for all four years. Most of us don't have savings to cover all that, so let's say you are paying as we are with after-tax dollars, that means we have to make $800K to afford $400k to send DD to W&L.

In contrast, we are paying $16K a year for in-state tuition at UVA (yes, yes, housing and food, but she lives in an apartment with four others, cooks herown meals and has no car). We are probably expending $25K per year total for UVA. We locked in at the $16K rate and we cover DD with our own health care policy.

If we spent $100k at UVA instate, then we head to spend $200K to make that happen. (don't start on savings, the college funds were decimated by the last recession plus we have care issues with elder grandparents and a SN kid).

$800k - $200K equals $600 savings over four years. If you invested that money, at 7.5% for 20 years you would have $2.5M to pass on to your child. https://www.budgetworksheets.org/invest/invest.php?amount=600,000. In our case, we, fortunately, banked the difference so now can afford grad school (Oxford) overseas for DD. She also wants to go to law school someday. That's now $105K a year x 3 years. Spending all that money on a SLAC no longer makes any sense IMHO.

The NPV in the study already cited included all costs and income adjusted for time value of money and W&L comes out well ahead of UVA. The other study cited takes into account and normalizes for the the majors of graduates (because some fields like engineering make considerably more at least in the short to mid term.) You are describing the differences in majors as if it all favors W&L over UVA (which usually wouldn't be claimed for an LAC vs a university. In fact, UVA has about 13% of graduates in engineering vs. about 1% for W&L, and that should favor UVA. The outcome of that study was that the value add of W&L was over $19K per year over UVA.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Stop citing the Georgetown "study" which has Georgetown ranked #1.

No one believes a study that has Yale ranked #178 while ranking its own school #1.

Don't like the conclusion, eh? The Economist and Brookings produced their own studies based on the same data set. The conclusions were very similar (W&L was actually #1 in the Economist value add study). I didn't cite those because the Economist is subscription and Brookings requires you to enter your e-mail.

It seems you like the conclusion so much that you kept promoting it everywhere. The "study" is not credible. Georgetown reverse engineered a formula to make itself #1. They need to publish the actual formulas they use and have them peer reviewed.

This Georgetown list is quite comical. Actually Yale at #178 is not that bad considering

UChicago, #553
Brown, #845
Northwestern, #773
UIUC, #721
Amherst, #949
Swarthmore, #1338

But, sure, that W&L in Roanoke ... and Georgetown, the author of the 'study', is #1.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In light of the current economic situation, UVA in-state. No question.

W&L ROI is much better.

This is incorrect for the reasons given above - the student body and its chosen fields (teaching, nursing, mid-level government service) are quite different. Also, the PP fails to notice what the financial difference would be to the student if the student went to UVA and the parents banked the difference (which we did). We did tour both. We are a donut hole family and received no merit or financial aid offers anywhere. DD applied to 9 institutions, was accepted at five and chose UVA in-state (phew!).

If DS went to W&L this fall, the tuition is $77,600 (not including health is., travel and greek membership). BUT W&L is the only institution that I am aware of that posts the COSTS OF GREEK participation right with the COA: "The average cost for all necessary expenses mentioned above does not include health insurance, travel costs, or fraternity/sorority membership. Fraternity / sorority charges for first-years in 2018-2019 averaged $1,330 for men and $610 for women. Fraternity / sorority charges for upper-division students averaged $4,765 for men, $1,250 for women, with room and board charges adding approximately $3,420 to 10,485 for men and $3,250 to 13,925 for women. Board plans for Live-Out Sorority members was $3,250 for the year." W&L does this because 74% of the students participate in Greek life at W&L (a deal killer for DS).

So, taking $77,600 and adding on $1000 for health, $3K for travel, and $1330 for first year greek involvement plus $2000 for off-campus meals and drink and you have easily $86K a year. The projected four year sticker price (adding on the $5K for greek participation in later years plus the insane ratcheting up of prices every year for SLACs) gives us probably $400K for all four years. Most of us don't have savings to cover all that, so let's say you are paying as we are with after-tax dollars, that means we have to make $800K to afford $400k to send DD to W&L.

In contrast, we are paying $16K a year for in-state tuition at UVA (yes, yes, housing and food, but she lives in an apartment with four others, cooks herown meals and has no car). We are probably expending $25K per year total for UVA. We locked in at the $16K rate and we cover DD with our own health care policy.

If we spent $100k at UVA instate, then we head to spend $200K to make that happen. (don't start on savings, the college funds were decimated by the last recession plus we have care issues with elder grandparents and a SN kid).

$800k - $200K equals $600 savings over four years. If you invested that money, at 7.5% for 20 years you would have $2.5M to pass on to your child. https://www.budgetworksheets.org/invest/invest.php?amount=600,000. In our case, we, fortunately, banked the difference so now can afford grad school (Oxford) overseas for DD. She also wants to go to law school someday. That's now $105K a year x 3 years. Spending all that money on a SLAC no longer makes any sense IMHO.

The NPV in the study already cited included all costs and income adjusted for time value of money and W&L comes out well ahead of UVA. The other study cited takes into account and normalizes for the the majors of graduates (because some fields like engineering make considerably more at least in the short to mid term.) You are describing the differences in majors as if it all favors W&L over UVA (which usually wouldn't be claimed for an LAC vs a university. In fact, UVA has about 13% of graduates in engineering vs. about 1% for W&L, and that should favor UVA. The outcome of that study was that the value add of W&L was over $19K per year over UVA.

I think you are responding to someone else about that study you keep talking about.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Stop citing the Georgetown "study" which has Georgetown ranked #1.

No one believes a study that has Yale ranked #178 while ranking its own school #1.

Don't like the conclusion, eh? The Economist and Brookings produced their own studies based on the same data set. The conclusions were very similar (W&L was actually #1 in the Economist value add study). I didn't cite those because the Economist is subscription and Brookings requires you to enter your e-mail.

It seems you like the conclusion so much that you kept promoting it everywhere. The "study" is not credible. Georgetown reverse engineered a formula to make itself #1. They need to publish the actual formulas they use and have them peer reviewed.

This Georgetown list is quite comical. Actually Yale at #178 is not that bad considering

UChicago, #553
Brown, #845
Northwestern, #773
UIUC, #721
Amherst, #949
Swarthmore, #1338

But, sure, that W&L in Roanoke ... and Georgetown, the author of the 'study', is #1.

Evidently W&L was moved to Roanoke. . .

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In light of the current economic situation, UVA in-state. No question.

W&L ROI is much better.

This is incorrect for the reasons given above - the student body and its chosen fields (teaching, nursing, mid-level government service) are quite different. Also, the PP fails to notice what the financial difference would be to the student if the student went to UVA and the parents banked the difference (which we did). We did tour both. We are a donut hole family and received no merit or financial aid offers anywhere. DD applied to 9 institutions, was accepted at five and chose UVA in-state (phew!).

If DS went to W&L this fall, the tuition is $77,600 (not including health is., travel and greek membership). BUT W&L is the only institution that I am aware of that posts the COSTS OF GREEK participation right with the COA: "The average cost for all necessary expenses mentioned above does not include health insurance, travel costs, or fraternity/sorority membership. Fraternity / sorority charges for first-years in 2018-2019 averaged $1,330 for men and $610 for women. Fraternity / sorority charges for upper-division students averaged $4,765 for men, $1,250 for women, with room and board charges adding approximately $3,420 to 10,485 for men and $3,250 to 13,925 for women. Board plans for Live-Out Sorority members was $3,250 for the year." W&L does this because 74% of the students participate in Greek life at W&L (a deal killer for DS).

So, taking $77,600 and adding on $1000 for health, $3K for travel, and $1330 for first year greek involvement plus $2000 for off-campus meals and drink and you have easily $86K a year. The projected four year sticker price (adding on the $5K for greek participation in later years plus the insane ratcheting up of prices every year for SLACs) gives us probably $400K for all four years. Most of us don't have savings to cover all that, so let's say you are paying as we are with after-tax dollars, that means we have to make $800K to afford $400k to send DD to W&L.

In contrast, we are paying $16K a year for in-state tuition at UVA (yes, yes, housing and food, but she lives in an apartment with four others, cooks herown meals and has no car). We are probably expending $25K per year total for UVA. We locked in at the $16K rate and we cover DD with our own health care policy.

If we spent $100k at UVA instate, then we head to spend $200K to make that happen. (don't start on savings, the college funds were decimated by the last recession plus we have care issues with elder grandparents and a SN kid).

$800k - $200K equals $600 savings over four years. If you invested that money, at 7.5% for 20 years you would have $2.5M to pass on to your child. https://www.budgetworksheets.org/invest/invest.php?amount=600,000. In our case, we, fortunately, banked the difference so now can afford grad school (Oxford) overseas for DD. She also wants to go to law school someday. That's now $105K a year x 3 years. Spending all that money on a SLAC no longer makes any sense IMHO.

The NPV in the study already cited included all costs and income adjusted for time value of money and W&L comes out well ahead of UVA. The other study cited takes into account and normalizes for the the majors of graduates (because some fields like engineering make considerably more at least in the short to mid term.) You are describing the differences in majors as if it all favors W&L over UVA (which usually wouldn't be claimed for an LAC vs a university. In fact, UVA has about 13% of graduates in engineering vs. about 1% for W&L, and that should favor UVA. The outcome of that study was that the value add of W&L was over $19K per year over UVA.

I think you are responding to someone else about that study you keep talking about.

I was responding to whoever wrote what is bolded above.