Inheritance debacle. WWYD?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op here. At the time of the writing of the will, my godmother and my grandma both sat with a lawyer and had the will written and verified.

Why was your grandmother with her sister when the will was written?

Who was holding the will at the time of Thelma's death?

So, Larla's grandmother goes with her sister Thelma to a lawyer's office and when the meeting is over, Thelma is leaving her family home to her sister's granddaughter instead of to her own two children.

This sounds like the plot of a tv detective show. An older woman dies and leaves her home to a great niece instead of her own children. The children go to a lawyer to find out if there is any way to challenge this surprising will. The lawyer hires a detective who tracks down the lawyer who wrote the will five years before Thelma passed away. At the end, there is a dramatic courtroom scene where the lawyer who wrote the will is called to the stand and is asked who said what when Thelma and her sister were sitting in his office on the day he wrote Thelma's will. What will the judge decide?

If I were Mary or Roy, I'd be asking a lot of questions and consulting a lawyer about this situation, before too much time has passed.

I think the facts surrounding the writing of the will definitely give Mary and Roy an opening to challenge it.

I think there's enough possibility that something is off here that Mary and Roy should see a lawyer. We don't really know enough because we are only hearing the facts from Larla's perspective. A lawyer can look at the will and find out more about the circumstances from the lawyer who wrote the will. Maybe there's a basis to challenge the will, maybe there's not, but they should get legal advice from an objective professional to find out.

This isn't about sympathy/hostility toward Mary or whether she should be punished/rewarded for her choices/possible mental health problems. A will is a legal document and there are rules about how a will is written. Mary and Roy need to find out if there was anything unusual about the situation surrounding their mother's will that indicate that the will is not a good one.

Do Mary and Roy know that Larla's grandmother accompanied their mother to the lawyer's office to have her will written? The fact that Larla's grandmother was there and ended up being named executor for the will which leaves a valuable asset to her own granddaughter raises at least a yellow flag. The circumstances do lend themselves to the question of whether Thelma was influenced by her sister to leave her family home to the great niece rather than to her own children.

Who had copies of the will when Thelma died? Did Mary and Roy both have copies in advance? Did Thelma's sister have a copy? Did Larla or her parents have a copy?

Did Mary and Roy know ahead of time that their mother's sister would be the executor?

[Anonymous]

I have to wonder if the OP is a writer sussing out a potential storyline (only thing missing is a convenient murder).

I also agree that there's elements of what we're told that suggests Roy and Mary have grounds for challenging the will. Even if the courts ultimately decide in Larla's favor, there's enough at stake to make it worth for Mary and Roy to resort to litigation.

If this is a true story, then perhaps the best approach is to seek a mediator and settle with Roy and Mary to sell the house and divide the proceeds equally between the three of you. This will less costly than having to hire a lawyer and run through the inheritance on lawyers' fees. Notwithstanding the peculiar dynamics of Thelma and Mary's relationship, there's also the moral element of cutting out Mary from the most valuable part of the estate (just wondering - was the house / estate primarily due from Mary's father / Thelma's husband's work, if so, would the father have supported Thelma leaving the house to a grand-niece instead of his own children?).

[Anonymous]

I'm curious, if by now, Larla/OP has any insight into Mary's and Roy's thoughts on the will -- how do they feel about their mother's will and what she left to Larla? Is Mary making plans to move out, or is she hoping Larla will let her stay? Has Larla/OP seen a lawyer yet?

Mary is now in a spot like many middle-aged women are, who find out that their husband wants a divorce. It's not easy to start over at this age, but it will only get harder the longer she waits because she's not getting any younger. Even if the house was hers, she needs the income to be able to afford the taxes, utilities and maintenance. 100K won't necessarily last all that long if she relies on that to pay the bills.

[Anonymous]

Op here

Roy knew all along that his mother wasn't leaving him the house. He was kicked out early on by his father at around 19 when he dropped out of college. He was forced to sink or swim as now he is a very successful man. He is also a man who only talked to his mom maybe 1 time every month. they were not especially close.

That being said, he has always wished that Mary was treated with the same tough love that he was. He is quite resentful of the fact that he was pushed out of the nest and his sister is still there, and receiving an allowance on top of still being allowed to live there.

[Anonymous]

I pressed enter too soon.

My cousin has no intentions of moving out anytime soon. In fact, I went to talk to her and she was talking about her plans to move into the master bedroom (my god mother's old room). I just kind of looked at her wondering if she realized.....

[Anonymous]

OP, you need to deal with this. Who is paying the taxes, the bills, repairs? You are now on the hook for them and this won't be an inconsiderable amount. If you let her stay you need this laid out in writing. What does she think is happening? That she stays and you pay the bills? Is she just in denial? Can her brother help you?

[Anonymous]

The more you tell us, the more I realize that it's a very unpleasant family. I bet Thelma was a right bitch and witch. You may see it differently but based on what we've been told, there was a mother who regularly quarrelled with her daughter and went to the extreme step of not leaving a valuable home to her (regardless of the situation, the house was Mary's home too), despite that such a move would actually leave the daughter in a very precarious position, financially and even emotionally. There's a son who was kicked out of the house at 19 and who, for whatever reason, has never maintained close contact with his own mother (which strongly implies the mother was a dysfunctional bitch). The son has children of his own, yet their own grandmother literally cut them off by leaving the most valuable asset to a grandniece instead of her own kith and kin. I'm guessing there wasn't much of a relationship between the grandmother and grandchildren? Which means Roy didn't encourage it. Yet another evidence supporting the notion Thelma was bitch asshole.

Anyway, there's a lot we're being told that doesn't quite piece together neatly. You're giving out critical information in little dribbles instead of being entirely upfront. And I suspect you're still hiding a lot from us or embellishing certain details or avoiding stating the real truth that could be Thelma was a dysfunctional and bitter bitch of a mother and you, whether intentionally or not, have benefited from it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The more you tell us, the more I realize that it's a very unpleasant family. I bet Thelma was a right bitch and witch. You may see it differently but based on what we've been told, there was a mother who regularly quarrelled with her daughter and went to the extreme step of not leaving a valuable home to her (regardless of the situation, the house was Mary's home too), despite that such a move would actually leave the daughter in a very precarious position, financially and even emotionally. There's a son who was kicked out of the house at 19 and who, for whatever reason, has never maintained close contact with his own mother (which strongly implies the mother was a dysfunctional bitch). The son has children of his own, yet their own grandmother literally cut them off by leaving the most valuable asset to a grandniece instead of her own kith and kin. I'm guessing there wasn't much of a relationship between the grandmother and grandchildren? Which means Roy didn't encourage it. Yet another evidence supporting the notion Thelma was bitch asshole.

Anyway, there's a lot we're being told that doesn't quite piece together neatly. You're giving out critical information in little dribbles instead of being entirely upfront. And I suspect you're still hiding a lot from us or embellishing certain details or avoiding stating the real truth that could be Thelma was a dysfunctional and bitter bitch of a mother and you, whether intentionally or not, have benefited from it.

I would suggest you stop using the term bitch to describe my godmother. I'm not leaving anything out. When godmothers husband was alive he was strict with his son but was wrapped around his daughter's finger. He was quite "traditional" in that he firmly believed that it is the mans job to work. When his son dropped out of college, he refused to allow him to slack off at home and gave him an ultimatum. Roy came out successful but never forgave them for putting him out. FYI they were willing to float him all the way through college until he got a job, they were not however going to bankroll him sitting at home and not working or going to school. My grandmother said they gave him some time to have "mental clarity" which the way she described it, sounds like a gap year to give him time to decide what he wants to do going forward. . After that he still didn't really want to go back to school or work.

My godmother did also leave things to her grandkids. Roy's kids are teen boys (15 and 19) and she left them each $30k, presumably for school or whatever.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The more you tell us, the more I realize that it's a very unpleasant family. I bet Thelma was a right bitch and witch. You may see it differently but based on what we've been told, there was a mother who regularly quarrelled with her daughter and went to the extreme step of not leaving a valuable home to her (regardless of the situation, the house was Mary's home too), despite that such a move would actually leave the daughter in a very precarious position, financially and even emotionally. There's a son who was kicked out of the house at 19 and who, for whatever reason, has never maintained close contact with his own mother (which strongly implies the mother was a dysfunctional bitch). The son has children of his own, yet their own grandmother literally cut them off by leaving the most valuable asset to a grandniece instead of her own kith and kin. I'm guessing there wasn't much of a relationship between the grandmother and grandchildren? Which means Roy didn't encourage it. Yet another evidence supporting the notion Thelma was bitch asshole.

Anyway, there's a lot we're being told that doesn't quite piece together neatly. You're giving out critical information in little dribbles instead of being entirely upfront. And I suspect you're still hiding a lot from us or embellishing certain details or avoiding stating the real truth that could be Thelma was a dysfunctional and bitter bitch of a mother and you, whether intentionally or not, have benefited from it.

Not OP and mmhmmm to all this but the bottomline is "bitch" Thelma left the house to OP and Mary needs to get her ass out. The end.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The more you tell us, the more I realize that it's a very unpleasant family. I bet Thelma was a right bitch and witch. You may see it differently but based on what we've been told, there was a mother who regularly quarrelled with her daughter and went to the extreme step of not leaving a valuable home to her (regardless of the situation, the house was Mary's home too), despite that such a move would actually leave the daughter in a very precarious position, financially and even emotionally. There's a son who was kicked out of the house at 19 and who, for whatever reason, has never maintained close contact with his own mother (which strongly implies the mother was a dysfunctional bitch). The son has children of his own, yet their own grandmother literally cut them off by leaving the most valuable asset to a grandniece instead of her own kith and kin. I'm guessing there wasn't much of a relationship between the grandmother and grandchildren? Which means Roy didn't encourage it. Yet another evidence supporting the notion Thelma was bitch asshole.

Anyway, there's a lot we're being told that doesn't quite piece together neatly. You're giving out critical information in little dribbles instead of being entirely upfront. And I suspect you're still hiding a lot from us or embellishing certain details or avoiding stating the real truth that could be Thelma was a dysfunctional and bitter bitch of a mother and you, whether intentionally or not, have benefited from it.

I would suggest you stop using the term bitch to describe my godmother. I'm not leaving anything out. When godmothers husband was alive he was strict with his son but was wrapped around his daughter's finger. He was quite "traditional" in that he firmly believed that it is the mans job to work. When his son dropped out of college, he refused to allow him to slack off at home and gave him an ultimatum. Roy came out successful but never forgave them for putting him out. FYI they were willing to float him all the way through college until he got a job, they were not however going to bankroll him sitting at home and not working or going to school. My grandmother said they gave him some time to have "mental clarity" which the way she described it, sounds like a gap year to give him time to decide what he wants to do going forward. . After that he still didn't really want to go back to school or work.

My godmother did also leave things to her grandkids. Roy's kids are teen boys (15 and 19) and she left them each $30k, presumably for school or whatever.

OP, have Jeff delete this thread. Send Mary an eviction notice, sell the house, get your life. Good luck!

[Anonymous]

I don't see the point in deleting a thread that raises a lot of good points for people to consider when writing a will. Unless OP is concerned that Mary and Roy might see the thread and get the idea to consult a lawyer.

All the personal information about how the members of the family interacted is beside the point and doesn't matter if someone took advantage of Thelma's state of mind to influence her to write the will this way. If that should be shown to be the case, then Mary and Roy would have a good reason to look into challenging the will.

[Anonymous]

OP, I get the impression that all of this has happened quite recently. If that's the case then the house isn't yours yet. When my grandfather died, my father, his only child, was the inheritor of the estate. It was not a complicated estate and there were no debts, but it still took over a year to settle everything and one of the reasons for the time involved was to ensure there were no liens against the estate. The amount of time will vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction as well as state to state. There will probably be some taxes (local) to be paid. All of that will have to be done before the house is transferred to your name. So you're not likely to be able to serve Mary with an eviction notice right away. So you need to be prepared to wait some time.

That aside, I would not be surprised of Roy and Mary go to court. You haven't answered some of the questions asked of you regarding the family dynamics or whether Mary knew of her mother's intentions. If the will was written five years ago and Mary lived in the family home with the expectation of inheriting it and Thelma did nothing to disregard the idea, then yes, what Thelma did indicates she was a bitchy mother a la Tony Soprano's mother (her lackluster relationship with her own children and grandchildren does support this notion, unfortunately). The time for tough love for Mary was 30 years ago, even 10 years ago, but now Mary is 50 years old and a woman of limited abilities and means. You, as a young woman on the threshold of adulthood, don't really understand how difficult or challenging it can be for a late middle aged woman to suddenly have to face the harsh world without support or real resources, and Thelma did allow this situation to emerge. Further, you didn't answer the question whether Thelma's estate primarily derived from her husband (and Mary's father) and if that's the case, would Mary's father have supported leaving the house and assets away from his daughter?

Those are moral issues, of course, and the law is not the same as morality. From an ethical perspective I would argue the morally right thing to do would be to agree to a settlement with Mary that involves selling the house and splitting the proceeds between the two of you. If the house is sold for 400k, Mary will have a nest egg of 300k which will allow her to settle in a modest condo or apartment and provide some financial footings for the remainder of her life without having to become a burden on the state, and you will still walk away with a more than tidy sum of money to cover your education and a nice down payment on your own house. Above all, you walk away with a clean conscience. Approaching Roy and Mary with a settlement offer will most likely prevent an expensive legal battle that will drain the estate of its resources.

By the way, there was a case last year in the British courts. A mother died and explicitly cut out her only child from her will. In the will she made clear that not only was she of sound mind and body, but she had been long estranged from the daughter, attempts at reconciliations had not worked out and as such, she did not feel it necessary to leave anything to the daughter and left her estate to a charity. The daughter challenged the will and the court actually found in the daughter's favor and ordered the estate to be divided between the charity and the daughter. The reasoning was that the daughter had very limited means and the estate was valuable enough that giving some of it to her greatly reduced the likelihood that the daughter would be a burden on the state. It was an interesting ruling but I can see the reasoning behind it. Of course, this is the United States and not the UK, but it's still intriguing.

By the way, if I were Roy I'd be supporting Mary in any litigation over the house because if Mary is left with only the 100k, no place to live, no job or future prospects, who do you think is going to support Mary in the future? Roy, of course (and another reason for why Thelma was really very inconsiderate and bitchy with how she set up her will).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I can't see this mom knowingly giving away the roof over her daughter's head...

I can see the mom gifting the house to the Op with the hopes that Op take care of the maintenance and make sure that the utilities/taxes are paid until the daughter either moves, dies, whatever. It's possible that the daughter is collecting some sort of subsidy which would be lost if the daughter were gifted the house. That is why Op was gifted the house instead.

I would suspect that there is more going on here than meets the eye. Tricky situation.

Agree. It is extremely rare for an individual to gift large assets to people outside the immediate family. Charities, yes, but individuals, no.

[Anonymous]

OP, how did you find out about your inheritance? Was there a family meeting where the lawyer read the will? Or did the executor simply contact you and let you know? Who gets the possessions inside the house?

You all need to meet with the attorney who wrote the will. The attorney will explain how the facts and circumstances came into being - no attorney will want to be challenged on writing a defective will for a client.

What Mary & Roy decide to do with that information is up to them, and you will either need to prepare for a probate battle, or not.

In the meantime, you need to get an independent assessment of the house yesterday - get an appraiser, get a home inspector, document the possessions if they should be going to you, etc. Make sure the house is appropriately insured to the estate (the attorney should help you with that), make sure the property taxes are paid up for the time being, maybe even buy a home warranty to tide over major repairs for now.

You need a "snapshot" of the home at the time of her passing - the condition, etc.

And, while you're waiting on all of that to take place, read this book, it might come in handy when it comes time to negotiate with Mary https://www.amazon.com/High-Conflict-People-Legal-Disputes/dp/1936268000

[Anonymous]

To answer some questions:

1. My godmother was in perfect mental and very good physical health. She frequently took solo cruises and road trips. For example, one day she called me from upstate NY to tell me she drove up there to spend time with an old friend. Not sure why you all insist on the fact that she was some feeble minded frail old woman who was deliriously laying in bed having someone drag her hand across the signature line on the will.

2. I have heard with my own ears, my godmother telling her daughter that she shouldn't be so entitled (in a discussion about inheritance) and that she shouldn't expect to inherit much. My godmother was quite wealthy (independently, not through her late DH) but didn't like to let on that she had money. She only did big purchases at Christmas, birthdays and special occasions like graduations, so no one saw her throwing money around on the regular.

3. As much as I don't want to leave Mary without a home, why is it the "moral" thing to split the proceeds of the house with her? Not arguing, just wondering. What's to stop Roy from saying he wants a cut too?