Truck kills 30 in France

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, I dont. We live in policed/police states in the west. Monitoring hate speech from imams and deporting them? Monitoring hate web sites and those who subscribe to them and echo them? Shutting them down? Good policing. Cooperating with Muslim communities and asking them to self monitor and focus the message to supporting civil society? Makes sense. No I dont think the terrorists have won when we take action to protect our cherished insititutins and our lives . I'm actually glad Gingrich has fired a shot across the bow on this. Is it uncomfortable sure. But who IS comfortable these days? Is it comfortable to be a westerner, or a Muslim westerner whose way of life is under full on attack?

A military state only grows as fear grows. A curfew can last a week or it can last forever.

You have missed the point completely. When our rights are restricted, we are no longer "free." Do you want check points upon entering restaurants, for example?

We're heading that way, and that means the terrorists win.

Terrorists win when they can cause the kind of destruction and horror that occurred in Nice, and we rationalize or put the blame elsewhere. Did you watch videos or hear the child's voice saying, "Maman?!" Horrific!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Of course it matters if it is an ongoing pattern. They are Sunni Muslim extremists that want to wipe out all Shias as well. All the Muslims they attack are Shias.

That's not true. They kill plenty of Sunnis as well. Some of the ISIS guys aren't even very religious -- or at least don't know very much about Islam. To the extent that ISIS has a religious ideology -- they tend to be very flexible rather than doctrinaire -- they are Wahhabist.

ISIS is proving very adept at exploiting underlying resentments. They aren't simply reading Quran verses and convincing people to launch attacks. Rather, they find someone who is pissed off at everything and provide an outlet for that anger. Right now we are in a vicious circle in which attacks like this increase anti-Islamism in the West and that, in turn, increases alienation among Muslims. I fear that none of our leaders have the foresight to break the cycle and most Americans wouldn't support such a strategy if one did. So, things will only get worse.

I see what you are saying. I hate being afraid and having to doubt people. The thing is though the LA shooter and Orlando were not alienated. That's what scary. They both had jobs etc... And still turned. Same with Brussels terrorists. Something is happening. I have Muslim friends and they are probably one of the nicest families in DC and have been here for a long time.

I think you are mistaking the appearance of normality with a lack of alienation. I don't know enough about either the LA or Orlando shootings, but I can guess a lot of what they experienced. They lived in a country in which anti-Muslim remarks are common, in which a major Presidential candidate has proposed banning the entry of Muslims, in which another Presidential candidate proposed specific surveillance of Muslim communities, whose government is bombing Muslims over over the place, whose Congress is relentlessly pro-Israel and where even supporting a boycott is considered anti-Semitic. We know that lots middle and lower class white folks are feeling tremendous amounts of resentment due to an array of issues that appear to be undermining their way of life. Imagine overlying all of that resentment with the additional issues of being Muslim? In this country we have Trump telling the white guys that he will look out for them. These alienated Muslims have some guy on the Internet telling them he has a way to address their anger.

Stop making excuses for these animals who, incidentally, just killed a bunch of children in Nice. Plenty of immigrants have felt resentment and alienation and have received far less in terms of monetary support and they haven't resorted to killing innocent people. If they have problem with living in the West and in the 21st century, maybe they should just stay in their own backwards countries. Nobody is begging them to come here.

Right. There are no criminals in any other immigrant community.

Sure, there are criminals but not terrorists inflicting mass casualties on the host population.

[jsteele]

"Violence begets violence" is not just a quaint aphorism. Or, as Gandhi is quoted as saying, "an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind".

If we don't break the cycle, we are destined to be stuck in it for a long time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, I dont. We live in policed/police states in the west. Monitoring hate speech from imams and deporting them? Monitoring hate web sites and those who subscribe to them and echo them? Shutting them down? Good policing. Cooperating with Muslim communities and asking them to self monitor and focus the message to supporting civil society? Makes sense. No I dont think the terrorists have won when we take action to protect our cherished insititutins and our lives . I'm actually glad Gingrich has fired a shot across the bow on this. Is it uncomfortable sure. But who IS comfortable these days? Is it comfortable to be a westerner, or a Muslim westerner whose way of life is under full on attack?

A military state only grows as fear grows. A curfew can last a week or it can last forever.

You have missed the point completely. When our rights are restricted, we are no longer "free." Do you want check points upon entering restaurants, for example?

We're heading that way, and that means the terrorists win.

Terrorists win when they can cause the kind of destruction and horror that occurred in Nice, and we rationalize or put the blame elsewhere. Did you watch videos or hear the child's voice saying, "Maman?!" Horrific!

I have zero issue with checkpoints, profiling (especially around transportation), and monitoring hate sites / hate speech. And I'm not limiting that to extremist Muslims but to anyone who declares war on the west and kills about fifty innocents a week, or for other criminal / or policing issues - neo nazis etc. Thats not a police state its smart policing. We need to stop hanging ourselves with our utmost regard for civil liberties. You can do both. You can have a civil free society with some reasonable protective measures.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, I dont. We live in policed/police states in the west. Monitoring hate speech from imams and deporting them? Monitoring hate web sites and those who subscribe to them and echo them? Shutting them down? Good policing. Cooperating with Muslim communities and asking them to self monitor and focus the message to supporting civil society? Makes sense. No I dont think the terrorists have won when we take action to protect our cherished insititutins and our lives . I'm actually glad Gingrich has fired a shot across the bow on this. Is it uncomfortable sure. But who IS comfortable these days? Is it comfortable to be a westerner, or a Muslim westerner whose way of life is under full on attack?

A military state only grows as fear grows. A curfew can last a week or it can last forever.

You have missed the point completely. When our rights are restricted, we are no longer "free." Do you want check points upon entering restaurants, for example?

We're heading that way, and that means the terrorists win.

Terrorists win when they can cause the kind of destruction and horror that occurred in Nice, and we rationalize or put the blame elsewhere. Did you watch videos or hear the child's voice saying, "Maman?!" Horrific!

I have zero issue with checkpoints, profiling (especially around transportation), and monitoring hate sites / hate speech. And I'm not limiting that to extremist Muslims but to anyone who declares war on the west and kills about fifty innocents a week, or for other criminal / or policing issues - neo nazis etc. Thats not a police state its smart policing. We need to stop hanging ourselves with our utmost regard for civil liberties. You can do both. You can have a civil free society with some reasonable protective measures.

PP here. I agree!

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

"Violence begets violence" is not just a quaint aphorism. Or, as Gandhi is quoted as saying, "an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind".

If we don't break the cycle, we are destined to be stuck in it for a long time.

You're right. People who feel oppressed should express themselves with peaceful protest, just like Gandhi. Last I saw nobody was bombing Tunisians in Nice except a fellow Tunisian yesterday.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

"Violence begets violence" is not just a quaint aphorism. Or, as Gandhi is quoted as saying, "an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind".

If we don't break the cycle, we are destined to be stuck in it for a long time.

You're right. People who feel oppressed should express themselves with peaceful protest, just like Gandhi. Last I saw nobody was bombing Tunisians in Nice except a fellow Tunisian yesterday.

You have no idea of history, do you? Why do you think there are so many attacks in France in particular?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, I dont. We live in policed/police states in the west. Monitoring hate speech from imams and deporting them? Monitoring hate web sites and those who subscribe to them and echo them? Shutting them down? Good policing. Cooperating with Muslim communities and asking them to self monitor and focus the message to supporting civil society? Makes sense. No I dont think the terrorists have won when we take action to protect our cherished insititutins and our lives . I'm actually glad Gingrich has fired a shot across the bow on this. Is it uncomfortable sure. But who IS comfortable these days? Is it comfortable to be a westerner, or a Muslim westerner whose way of life is under full on attack?

A military state only grows as fear grows. A curfew can last a week or it can last forever.

You have missed the point completely. When our rights are restricted, we are no longer "free." Do you want check points upon entering restaurants, for example?

We're heading that way, and that means the terrorists win.

Terrorists win when they can cause the kind of destruction and horror that occurred in Nice, and we rationalize or put the blame elsewhere. Did you watch videos or hear the child's voice saying, "Maman?!" Horrific!

So let's blame the terrorists.

What follows from this? Bombing something? Checkpoints everywhere?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, I dont. We live in policed/police states in the west. Monitoring hate speech from imams and deporting them? Monitoring hate web sites and those who subscribe to them and echo them? Shutting them down? Good policing. Cooperating with Muslim communities and asking them to self monitor and focus the message to supporting civil society? Makes sense. No I dont think the terrorists have won when we take action to protect our cherished insititutins and our lives . I'm actually glad Gingrich has fired a shot across the bow on this. Is it uncomfortable sure. But who IS comfortable these days? Is it comfortable to be a westerner, or a Muslim westerner whose way of life is under full on attack?

A military state only grows as fear grows. A curfew can last a week or it can last forever.

You have missed the point completely. When our rights are restricted, we are no longer "free." Do you want check points upon entering restaurants, for example?

We're heading that way, and that means the terrorists win.

Terrorists win when they can cause the kind of destruction and horror that occurred in Nice, and we rationalize or put the blame elsewhere. Did you watch videos or hear the child's voice saying, "Maman?!" Horrific!

So let's blame the terrorists.

What follows from this? Bombing something? Checkpoints everywhere?

I am not sure what would stop lone wolves. I don't think they will ever be stopped, unfortunately. Maybe getting out of the Middle East and never looking back. But I guarantee rounding up all Muslims and building walls will not prevent such attacks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:Here is some pure speculation on my part. I've noticed that in several recent attacks, the perpetrators were fairly important members of the terrorist cells. I believe one of the Brussels bombers was described as an important bomb maker and one of the Istanbul attackers was a high-level recruiter. I could be mistake because I'm going by memory and I haven't memorized all the details of these attacks, but I think this is correct. The truck today is said to contain bomb-making material and weapons. Maybe that was a sort of headquarters/weapons cache and, instead of using an apartment, the cell was working out of a truck? In that scenario, the bomb-making material and weapons were not intended to be used in today's attack. Rather, for whatever reason, the attacker decided it was no longer useful to maintain the weapons cache.

If I am correct about all of this -- and I admit I am likely wrong -- it would mean that ISIS is running out of cannon fodder and is being forced to rely on more valuable assets for attacks. If that is the case, I suspect the organization has almost depleted its resources. You don't have your bomb-maker blow himself up if you are hoping for him to make more bombs. Similarly, you don't destroy your weapons cache unless that cache is no longer needed.

doubtful

There are far too many cells scattered about to make this hopeful statement.

Killing pedestrians on a national holiday is symbolic - not any different from destroying the towers on 9-11. Destroying symbols hits the psyche. Furthermore, whether the truck was a Trojan Horse or not, it was a twisted (yet brilliant) move to drive through a crowd of happy people b/c it's an extremely RAW way to physically damage a body. Imagine the damage to the the psyche at this point.

There are trucks all over the place. Remember the Beltway Sniper? We were on high alert after that, fearing every white van that drove by.

What should France do now? have police check points for every truck now?

How much militarization is necessary? curfews, restricted freedoms, living in fear

And if France heads toward a police state, don't you think the "terrorists" (however they are defined) will have won?

Agreed.

9-11 made us afraid of planes.

Now we will do a double take on big trucks. Candidly, I already had been during my commute to/from dc everyday. So many opportunities for a big truck to do damage. I hate being stuck near one, but typically feel a sense of relief if I can see the driver and reassure myself that he doesn't look like a crazy terrorist.

But what if a minirity sees a white guy, how do they know he is not a white racist hater like Dylan roof about to mow down the non white standing next? This is a diverse country and looks alone doesn't mean anything. You can look like a terrorist to some one else.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:Here is some pure speculation on my part. I've noticed that in several recent attacks, the perpetrators were fairly important members of the terrorist cells. I believe one of the Brussels bombers was described as an important bomb maker and one of the Istanbul attackers was a high-level recruiter. I could be mistake because I'm going by memory and I haven't memorized all the details of these attacks, but I think this is correct. The truck today is said to contain bomb-making material and weapons. Maybe that was a sort of headquarters/weapons cache and, instead of using an apartment, the cell was working out of a truck? In that scenario, the bomb-making material and weapons were not intended to be used in today's attack. Rather, for whatever reason, the attacker decided it was no longer useful to maintain the weapons cache.

If I am correct about all of this -- and I admit I am likely wrong -- it would mean that ISIS is running out of cannon fodder and is being forced to rely on more valuable assets for attacks. If that is the case, I suspect the organization has almost depleted its resources. You don't have your bomb-maker blow himself up if you are hoping for him to make more bombs. Similarly, you don't destroy your weapons cache unless that cache is no longer needed.

doubtful

There are far too many cells scattered about to make this hopeful statement.

Killing pedestrians on a national holiday is symbolic - not any different from destroying the towers on 9-11. Destroying symbols hits the psyche. Furthermore, whether the truck was a Trojan Horse or not, it was a twisted (yet brilliant) move to drive through a crowd of happy people b/c it's an extremely RAW way to physically damage a body. Imagine the damage to the the psyche at this point.

There are trucks all over the place. Remember the Beltway Sniper? We were on high alert after that, fearing every white van that drove by.

What should France do now? have police check points for every truck now?

How much militarization is necessary? curfews, restricted freedoms, living in fear

And if France heads toward a police state, don't you think the "terrorists" (however they are defined) will have won?

Agreed.

9-11 made us afraid of planes.

Now we will do a double take on big trucks. Candidly, I already had been during my commute to/from dc everyday. So many opportunities for a big truck to do damage. I hate being stuck near one, but typically feel a sense of relief if I can see the driver and reassure myself that he doesn't look like a crazy terrorist.

But what if a minirity sees a white guy, how do they know he is not a white racist hater like Dylan roof about to mow down the non white standing next? This is a diverse country and looks alone doesn't mean anything. You can look like a terrorist to some one else.

I don't think it's necessarily the color of a person's skin but more the expression on their face and their body language that would be the tip off that something is amiss.

Although I remember seeing the videos of those hijackers walking through the airport on 911. I don't know that there was anything in their body language that would have tipped anyone off. Scary.

Those poor people in France - to mow down a crowd full of happy people. Sick.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, I dont. We live in policed/police states in the west. Monitoring hate speech from imams and deporting them? Monitoring hate web sites and those who subscribe to them and echo them? Shutting them down? Good policing. Cooperating with Muslim communities and asking them to self monitor and focus the message to supporting civil society? Makes sense. No I dont think the terrorists have won when we take action to protect our cherished insititutins and our lives . I'm actually glad Gingrich has fired a shot across the bow on this. Is it uncomfortable sure. But who IS comfortable these days? Is it comfortable to be a westerner, or a Muslim westerner whose way of life is under full on attack?

A military state only grows as fear grows. A curfew can last a week or it can last forever.

You have missed the point completely. When our rights are restricted, we are no longer "free." Do you want check points upon entering restaurants, for example?

We're heading that way, and that means the terrorists win.

Terrorists win when they can cause the kind of destruction and horror that occurred in Nice, and we rationalize or put the blame elsewhere. Did you watch videos or hear the child's voice saying, "Maman?!" Horrific!

So let's blame the terrorists.

What follows from this? Bombing something? Checkpoints everywhere?

I am not sure what would stop lone wolves. I don't think they will ever be stopped, unfortunately. Maybe getting out of the Middle East and never looking back. But I guarantee rounding up all Muslims and building walls will not prevent such attacks.

Who said anything about rounding up all Muslims? The hyperbole.
A) using savvy comedy that makes fun if extremists as buffoons to reach the young
B) releasing more Isis returnees stories of the horror
C) monitoring, cooperation and social pressure from.within Muslim.communties
D) smart policing
E) supporting refugees in no fly zones
F) continuing to stabilize Iraq and aafghanistan
G) brining pressure to bear on"allies" like SA, Pakistan and even Iran (donr we have a deal with them) to stop exporting hate
Etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, I dont. We live in policed/police states in the west. Monitoring hate speech from imams and deporting them? Monitoring hate web sites and those who subscribe to them and echo them? Shutting them down? Good policing. Cooperating with Muslim communities and asking them to self monitor and focus the message to supporting civil society? Makes sense. No I dont think the terrorists have won when we take action to protect our cherished insititutins and our lives . I'm actually glad Gingrich has fired a shot across the bow on this. Is it uncomfortable sure. But who IS comfortable these days? Is it comfortable to be a westerner, or a Muslim westerner whose way of life is under full on attack?

A military state only grows as fear grows. A curfew can last a week or it can last forever.

You have missed the point completely. When our rights are restricted, we are no longer "free." Do you want check points upon entering restaurants, for example?

We're heading that way, and that means the terrorists win.

Terrorists win when they can cause the kind of destruction and horror that occurred in Nice, and we rationalize or put the blame elsewhere. Did you watch videos or hear the child's voice saying, "Maman?!" Horrific!

So let's blame the terrorists.

What follows from this? Bombing something? Checkpoints everywhere?

I am not sure what would stop lone wolves. I don't think they will ever be stopped, unfortunately. Maybe getting out of the Middle East and never looking back. But I guarantee rounding up all Muslims and building walls will not prevent such attacks.

Who said anything about rounding up all Muslims? The hyperbole.
A) using savvy comedy that makes fun if extremists as buffoons to reach the young
B) releasing more Isis returnees stories of the horror
C) monitoring, cooperation and social pressure from.within Muslim.communties
D) smart policing
E) supporting refugees in no fly zones
F) continuing to stabilize Iraq and aafghanistan
G) brining pressure to bear on"allies" like SA, Pakistan and even Iran (donr we have a deal with them) to stop exporting hate
Etc.

that will not stop lone wolves. Most of it it's already being done, and it's probably mitigating a lot of attacks. They will never be completely eliminated.

[Anonymous]

Oh but we can do.more. Nidal Hassan was a known element. Orlando guy was a known element. Lets mitigate a bit more shall we? In Orlando thread, some people said catching these lone wolves was FBI entrapment. I can dig up that quote easily. We probably need to mitigate the view that proactive police work is entrapment (when someone says something hateful on social media for example circling closer) in order to further mitigate these lone wolf attacks. As to the organized group attacks - obviously surveillance, borders etc help to mitigate. People are being arrested non stop across Europe. Who knows what is being mitigated? Cooperation from the Muslim community would highly help with mitigation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No, I dont. We live in policed/police states in the west. Monitoring hate speech from imams and deporting them? Monitoring hate web sites and those who subscribe to them and echo them? Shutting them down? Good policing. Cooperating with Muslim communities and asking them to self monitor and focus the message to supporting civil society? Makes sense. No I dont think the terrorists have won when we take action to protect our cherished insititutins and our lives . I'm actually glad Gingrich has fired a shot across the bow on this. Is it uncomfortable sure. But who IS comfortable these days? Is it comfortable to be a westerner, or a Muslim westerner whose way of life is under full on attack?

A military state only grows as fear grows. A curfew can last a week or it can last forever.

You have missed the point completely. When our rights are restricted, we are no longer "free." Do you want check points upon entering restaurants, for example?

We're heading that way, and that means the terrorists win.

Terrorists win when they can cause the kind of destruction and horror that occurred in Nice, and we rationalize or put the blame elsewhere. Did you watch videos or hear the child's voice saying, "Maman?!" Horrific!

So let's blame the terrorists.

What follows from this? Bombing something? Checkpoints everywhere?

I am not sure what would stop lone wolves. I don't think they will ever be stopped, unfortunately. Maybe getting out of the Middle East and never looking back. But I guarantee rounding up all Muslims and building walls will not prevent such attacks.

Who said anything about rounding up all Muslims? The hyperbole.
A) using savvy comedy that makes fun if extremists as buffoons to reach the young
B) releasing more Isis returnees stories of the horror
C) monitoring, cooperation and social pressure from.within Muslim.communties
D) smart policing
E) supporting refugees in no fly zones
F) continuing to stabilize Iraq and aafghanistan
G) brining pressure to bear on"allies" like SA, Pakistan and even Iran (donr we have a deal with them) to stop exporting hate
Etc.

that will not stop lone wolves. Most of it it's already being done, and it's probably mitigating a lot of attacks. They will never be completely eliminated.

Many of the same things are done to white supremacists groups too but no matter how much they are monitored a newly minted, self radicalized terrorist like Dylann Roof will show up and kill innocent blacks. The same applies to Islamic terrorists as well.