Afraid of backlash against Muslims

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:Nothing "equivocal" about it. I was the PP you've quoted. Taking someone's life is murder - be it in the name of Allah, Christ, Yahweh, or whatever your name is for the Higher Being to which you pray.

****

O.K. I can play like that too: "Backlash and discrimination against Muslims is bad but so is discrimination against any other people or ethnic group or religion or race. That would certainly include the actions of the Islamic terrorists in Paris and Bali and the Palestinian terrorist who stabbed the Israelis recently."

Are you satisfied jsteele? LOL

I wasn't the one who posted that, but I am satisfied with the words. However, actions are stronger and your actions suggest that you feel that a backlash against Muslims is justified if they fail to denounce violence in a manner acceptable to you. You don't appear to have the same standard for any other group. So, let's see action that matches your words.

[Anonymous]

Can you Google the Rohingyas and let me know what you think about their situation?

*****

Sure. As far as I can tell, the Rohingyas have absolutely nothing to do with the Paris or Mali terror attacks; the perceived "backlash" in the U.S. against Muslims; or the OP's complaint in this thread about that backlash. IOW they are a complete non sequitur to this discussion.

However, I've already conceded your point, jsteele, and will elaborate it to include the Rohingyas, just to show I'm not a bigot at all, and have an open mind subject to persuasion:

Backlash and discrimination against Muslims is bad but so is discrimination against any other people or ethnic group or religion or race. That would certainly include the actions of the Islamic terrorists in Paris and Bali and the Palestinian terrorist who stabbed the Israelis recently. I would also include any discrimination against Rohingyas too. I believe the discrimination against infidels shown by the Islamic terrorists killing hundreds in Paris, Mali, and elsewhere, is far worse by orders of magnitude then anything the OP is likely to experience in terms of anti-Muslim discrimination in the U.S., so I believe the focus should be on the more serious offenses.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:Can you Google the Rohingyas and let me know what you think about their situation?

*****

Sure. As far as I can tell, the Rohingyas have absolutely nothing to do with the Paris or Mali terror attacks; the perceived "backlash" in the U.S. against Muslims; or the OP's complaint in this thread about that backlash. IOW they are a complete non sequitur to this discussion.

However, I've already conceded your point, jsteele, and will elaborate it to include the Rohingyas, just to show I'm not a bigot at all, and have an open mind subject to persuasion:

Backlash and discrimination against Muslims is bad but so is discrimination against any other people or ethnic group or religion or race. That would certainly include the actions of the Islamic terrorists in Paris and Bali and the Palestinian terrorist who stabbed the Israelis recently. I would also include any discrimination against Rohingyas too. I believe the discrimination against infidels shown by the Islamic terrorists killing hundreds in Paris, Mali, and elsewhere, is far worse by orders of magnitude then anything the OP is likely to experience in terms of anti-Muslim discrimination in the U.S., so I believe the focus should be on the more serious offenses.

Thank you. While I can't speak for the Rohingyas, I'm sure they are happy to have you in their corner. If you feel that the issue of violence committed by radical Muslims has not been sufficiently addressed in this forum, I encourage you to start your own thread. I do believe it may have been a matter of hours since such a thread was started, so we certainly could use another one.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I'm from a secular country that is 98% Muslim.

LOL PP, I guess you never stopped to think about how your unidentified "secular" country got to a 98% Islamic population.

I mean, after all, Islam didn't even start until relatively recently in world history.

Where did all the "other" people go, PP? You know, the non-Islamic people who lived in your country before Mohammed's time?

If you'd identify the country in question I could just google it to find out how many infidels died during the Islamic conquest of your country. Little help please?

Are you for real, PP? You've never heard of the Crusades? Or the forced Christianization of African-American slaves?

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nothing "equivocal" about it. I was the PP you've quoted. Taking someone's life is murder - be it in the name of Allah, Christ, Yahweh, or whatever your name is for the Higher Being to which you pray.

****

O.K. I can play like that too: "Backlash and discrimination against Muslims is bad but so is discrimination against any other people or ethnic group or religion or race. That would certainly include the actions of the Islamic terrorists in Paris and Bali and the Palestinian terrorist who stabbed the Israelis recently."

Are you satisfied jsteele? LOL

I wasn't the one who posted that, but I am satisfied with the words. However, actions are stronger and your actions suggest that you feel that a backlash against Muslims is justified if they fail to denounce violence in a manner acceptable to you. You don't appear to have the same standard for any other group. So, let's see action that matches your words.

Except I never said a "backlash" as you have defined it is justified. Did I?

In any event, we both agree that discrimination or backlash is bad, but surely you agree that discrimination that takes the form of actually murdering hundreds of people with machine guns and suicide bombs is far far worse in both number and degree than any of the isolated incidents of anti-Muslim "backlash" in the U.S. that you have been bitching about, and I'm sure you would also agree that your feeble attempts to establish a false moral equivalence between the two forms of discrimination is not only serving to place you in the role of apologist for those murdering terrorists, but dishonors the dead.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lol this poster is unhinged..."Guilty until proven innocent" is not a principle we follow in America. Maybe the PP should relocate to Russia where his/her type of thinking would be more welcome.

I agree, so no one is "guilty" of "backlash" or "discrimination" against Muslims until proven innocent. Maybe OP should relocate to Iran.

Unless you agree that all Christians (not only catholics) must denounce the pedophilia of the Catholic church (just one example, we can come up with many for any given group of people), than you really have no argument here. By your logic, most christians support pedophilia.

This is a bad example. The collective outrage over pedophilia in the Catholic church was widespread. Many Catholics spoke out against it, left the church, etc. If you ask any Christian about it they would express disgust and sadness over the matter. The previous pope made an almost unprecedented move of "retiring" because he knew he was handling the fallout poorly. Pope Francis' has made a radical change in rhetoric and this made a real difference with people who were dissatisfied with the Catholic church on a lot of levels.

ISIS didn't pop into the world all of a sudden. The hateful, crazy rhetoric has been part of the Islamic world for a long time. The violence against minorities and even other Muslims has been around a long time, and has been widespread. THAT is the equivalent of the Catholic church's pedophilia problem, and that elicited no outrage in the Muslim world. You could have walked through Cairo on a Friday afternoon for the past couple of decades and heard ISIS-worthy sermons about the "kaffir" blaring from loudspeakers for the entire world to hear. Criticizing anything "Islamic" in the Muslim world is very much taboo. Or maybe most Muslims didn't really care, and things kept escalating until we reached this point.

I specifically mentioned all denominations beyond Catholics since we are including all Muslims and not just the radicals...it's a perfectly good example. You wouldn't think so however, because it shows the fault in your own argument. If you ask any American muslim about the paris attacks they would most likely also express disgust and sadness, even the OP said she denounced the attacks.

I am not who you think I am. I am not the crazy poster, and I am not some conservative suffering from some existential crisis over how Muslims will take over the world. I am actually a Middle Eastern person who speaks fluent Arabic and lived in a Muslim country and has Muslim friends and people in my family married to Muslims, etc.

Either you don't get my point or I am not communicating well. Probably the latter. What I was trying to say is that the pedophilia scandal is not like what is happening in the Muslim world today, it is like what happened decades ago when wahhabism spread throughout the Muslim world and no one did anything about it. Unlike what happened when the priest abuse came to light, no one in the Muslim world cared about this hateful disease took over the region. It doesn't really matter at this point if anyone is upset. It's too late. One of my relatives was a victim of radical Islamic terrorism 20 years ago and nothing happened. No one was arrested, no outcry occurred. No one cared. The people who terrorized my family may well be in ISIS now. ISIS affiliated groups are in all of these different countries for a reason- there was never any outcry against extremism. No one ever stood up to them. It was never frowned on to go to a mosque that preached extremist messages. If you had a friend who decided to become a member of Westboro Baptist church, would you be ok with that? Or would you try to reason with that person and let them know you can't be friends with someone who goes to that crazy church? When Muslims make the equivalent decision, no one stands in their way. Even MUSLIMS acknowledge this. I was listening to an NPR program yesterday where a Somali woman who tries to help people who want to leave extremist groups make the same point- young people would join radical mosques and no one would say anything because no one wants to stop someone from becoming more "devout." This is a failure on the part of mainstream Muslims and I lay it squarely at their feet. I also think Islam is a completely awful religion, because I have seen only destruction and evil as its fruit. It is an entirely separate point from how our society should treat Muslim people- they must have equal protection under the law, they should be protected from discrimination and violence, they should be given refuge from war. We are not better than these awful countries if we do the same things they do. We are only better if we act like it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I'm from a secular country that is 98% Muslim.

LOL PP, I guess you never stopped to think about how your unidentified "secular" country got to a 98% Islamic population.

I mean, after all, Islam didn't even start until relatively recently in world history.

Where did all the "other" people go, PP? You know, the non-Islamic people who lived in your country before Mohammed's time?

If you'd identify the country in question I could just google it to find out how many infidels died during the Islamic conquest of your country. Little help please?

Are you for real, PP? You've never heard of the Crusades? Or the forced Christianization of African-American slaves?

Of course I have, but the crusaders were Christian, so they certainly weren't responsible for imposing a 98% Islamic population on PP's country of origin, whatever it is.

[Anonymous]

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nothing "equivocal" about it. I was the PP you've quoted. Taking someone's life is murder - be it in the name of Allah, Christ, Yahweh, or whatever your name is for the Higher Being to which you pray.

****

O.K. I can play like that too: "Backlash and discrimination against Muslims is bad but so is discrimination against any other people or ethnic group or religion or race. That would certainly include the actions of the Islamic terrorists in Paris and Bali and the Palestinian terrorist who stabbed the Israelis recently."

Are you satisfied jsteele? LOL

I wasn't the one who posted that, but I am satisfied with the words. However, actions are stronger and your actions suggest that you feel that a backlash against Muslims is justified if they fail to denounce violence in a manner acceptable to you. You don't appear to have the same standard for any other group. So, let's see action that matches your words.

Yup. Wasn't jsteele. It was me. The Muslim unicorn.

I don't know how many times or how many ways you want me to say it, but really and truly, no other Muslim I know (and I know a lot) condones 9/11 or Paris or Beirut or the attacks of Israelis. Please. Get to know some Muslims. Or don't, but stop speaking as if you know what the majority of Muslims feel and believe. Your ignorance and hatred are so obvious.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Nothing "equivocal" about it. I was the PP you've quoted. Taking someone's life is murder - be it in the name of Allah, Christ, Yahweh, or whatever your name is for the Higher Being to which you pray.

****

O.K. I can play like that too: "Backlash and discrimination against Muslims is bad but so is discrimination against any other people or ethnic group or religion or race. That would certainly include the actions of the Islamic terrorists in Paris and Bali and the Palestinian terrorist who stabbed the Israelis recently."

Are you satisfied jsteele? LOL

I wasn't the one who posted that, but I am satisfied with the words. However, actions are stronger and your actions suggest that you feel that a backlash against Muslims is justified if they fail to denounce violence in a manner acceptable to you. You don't appear to have the same standard for any other group. So, let's see action that matches your words.

Except I never said a "backlash" as you have defined it is justified. Did I?

In any event, we both agree that discrimination or backlash is bad, but surely you agree that discrimination that takes the form of actually murdering hundreds of people with machine guns and suicide bombs is far far worse in both number and degree than any of the isolated incidents of anti-Muslim "backlash" in the U.S. that you have been bitching about, and I'm sure you would also agree that your feeble attempts to establish a false moral equivalence between the two forms of discrimination is not only serving to place you in the role of apologist for those murdering terrorists, but dishonors the dead.

To the extent that I can understand what you are saying about being an apologist, I disagree. As for the issue of posting about a backlash, I also disagree. Let's say I stub my toe and feel a lot of pain. Based on your logic, I couldn't complain about the pain if I had a neighbor who had terminal cancer. We can both agree that cancer is worse than a stubbed toe. But, I think I should still be allowed to complain about my toe. I am pretty sure you feel the same way, but your prejudice is negatively influencing your thinking right now.

When someone starts a thread about violence committed by Muslims, we don't ask them to state that they denounce a backlash against innocents that may arise from that violence. That would obviously be unseemly. What you fail to understand is that it is equally unseemly to expect an innocent person who is the victim of a backlash from an act they had nothing to do with to denounce the that act. I am very sure that you reject the notion that all white Americans bear some responsibility for slavery. Similarly, Muslims reject the idea that all Muslims bear responsibility for the acts of a minority.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I'm from a secular country that is 98% Muslim.

LOL PP, I guess you never stopped to think about how your unidentified "secular" country got to a 98% Islamic population.

I mean, after all, Islam didn't even start until relatively recently in world history.

Where did all the "other" people go, PP? You know, the non-Islamic people who lived in your country before Mohammed's time?

If you'd identify the country in question I could just google it to find out how many infidels died during the Islamic conquest of your country. Little help please?

Are you for real, PP? You've never heard of the Crusades? Or the forced Christianization of African-American slaves?

Of course I have, but the crusaders were Christian, so they certainly weren't responsible for imposing a 98% Islamic population on PP's country of origin, whatever it is.

Oy! Not the sharpest tool in the shed, are you? That's the point. You're insinuating the predomintately Muslim country became predominately Muslim by force. Christian countries are pretty familiar with this methodology as well.

[Anonymous]

No, you missed the point.

OP attributed the "backlash" solely to Republican bigotry.

She didn't mention any of the terrorist events, at all.

If there is "backlash," it is a direct consequence of the recent terrorist attacks. Does that make it right? No.

But pretending that it just came out of nowhere is nonsensical and is an effort to deflect attention from those attacks.

[jsteele]

Anonymous wrote:No, you missed the point.

OP attributed the "backlash" solely to Republican bigotry.

She didn't mention any of the terrorist events, at all.

If there is "backlash," it is a direct consequence of the recent terrorist attacks. Does that make it right? No.

But pretending that it just came out of nowhere is nonsensical and is an effort to deflect attention from those attacks.

Clearly I missed that point because it exist only in your imagination, something with which I am not privy.

OP didn't even mention Republicans. In her second message, she specifically denounced the Paris attacks.

The idea that worrying about a backlash is an attempt to deflect attention from the attacks is entirely your own contrivance. We have a huge number of threads here about violence committed by Muslims. There is no way that a single thread is going to deflect attention from there. Wait, there is one way: if an unhinged poster decided to hijack the single thread about a backlash and turn it into possibly the biggest display of blaming the victim DCUM has ever seen, that might take away from the other threads. But, that's not the OP's fault, it is the unhinged poster's fault.

[Anonymous]

Oh OK so when OP mentioned "two presidential candidates spewing hate" about Muslims she was talking about Sanders and Clinton.

Thanks for the clarification buddy.

[Anonymous]

so jsteel, since now you're claiming that OP meant it was Sanders and Clinton who were the presidential candidates spewing hatred towards Muslims, not two Republican candidates, let's hear you tell us why you're not going to vote for a Democrat this cycle, because of their loathsome bigotry.

You know, jsteele, your prevarications and distortions are a huge waste of time, don't you?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lol this poster is unhinged..."Guilty until proven innocent" is not a principle we follow in America. Maybe the PP should relocate to Russia where his/her type of thinking would be more welcome.

I agree, so no one is "guilty" of "backlash" or "discrimination" against Muslims until proven innocent. Maybe OP should relocate to Iran.

Unless you agree that all Christians (not only catholics) must denounce the pedophilia of the Catholic church (just one example, we can come up with many for any given group of people), than you really have no argument here. By your logic, most christians support pedophilia.

This is a bad example. The collective outrage over pedophilia in the Catholic church was widespread. Many Catholics spoke out against it, left the church, etc. If you ask any Christian about it they would express disgust and sadness over the matter. The previous pope made an almost unprecedented move of "retiring" because he knew he was handling the fallout poorly. Pope Francis' has made a radical change in rhetoric and this made a real difference with people who were dissatisfied with the Catholic church on a lot of levels.

ISIS didn't pop into the world all of a sudden. The hateful, crazy rhetoric has been part of the Islamic world for a long time. The violence against minorities and even other Muslims has been around a long time, and has been widespread. THAT is the equivalent of the Catholic church's pedophilia problem, and that elicited no outrage in the Muslim world. You could have walked through Cairo on a Friday afternoon for the past couple of decades and heard ISIS-worthy sermons about the "kaffir" blaring from loudspeakers for the entire world to hear. Criticizing anything "Islamic" in the Muslim world is very much taboo. Or maybe most Muslims didn't really care, and things kept escalating until we reached this point.

I specifically mentioned all denominations beyond Catholics since we are including all Muslims and not just the radicals...it's a perfectly good example. You wouldn't think so however, because it shows the fault in your own argument. If you ask any American muslim about the paris attacks they would most likely also express disgust and sadness, even the OP said she denounced the attacks.

I am not who you think I am. I am not the crazy poster, and I am not some conservative suffering from some existential crisis over how Muslims will take over the world. I am actually a Middle Eastern person who speaks fluent Arabic and lived in a Muslim country and has Muslim friends and people in my family married to Muslims, etc.

Either you don't get my point or I am not communicating well. Probably the latter. What I was trying to say is that the pedophilia scandal is not like what is happening in the Muslim world today, it is like what happened decades ago when wahhabism spread throughout the Muslim world and no one did anything about it. Unlike what happened when the priest abuse came to light, no one in the Muslim world cared about this hateful disease took over the region. It doesn't really matter at this point if anyone is upset. It's too late. One of my relatives was a victim of radical Islamic terrorism 20 years ago and nothing happened. No one was arrested, no outcry occurred. No one cared. The people who terrorized my family may well be in ISIS now. ISIS affiliated groups are in all of these different countries for a reason- there was never any outcry against extremism. No one ever stood up to them. It was never frowned on to go to a mosque that preached extremist messages. If you had a friend who decided to become a member of Westboro Baptist church, would you be ok with that? Or would you try to reason with that person and let them know you can't be friends with someone who goes to that crazy church? When Muslims make the equivalent decision, no one stands in their way. Even MUSLIMS acknowledge this. I was listening to an NPR program yesterday where a Somali woman who tries to help people who want to leave extremist groups make the same point- young people would join radical mosques and no one would say anything because no one wants to stop someone from becoming more "devout." This is a failure on the part of mainstream Muslims and I lay it squarely at their feet. I also think Islam is a completely awful religion, because I have seen only destruction and evil as its fruit. It is an entirely separate point from how our society should treat Muslim people- they must have equal protection under the law, they should be protected from discrimination and violence, they should be given refuge from war. We are not better than these awful countries if we do the same things they do. We are only better if we act like it.

PP I agree this is part of the problem in the Arab world. Culturally, it is taboo to say anything negative about someone's religious beliefs or practices. ISIS has exploited this as it leaves them free to brainwash young people free from friends and family who might interfere with their "religious" beliefs. But it is indoctrination into a radical political group with an ideology of hate and violence. I hope people in the Middle East are gradually waking up to this, speaking out and taking steps to keep their youth from falling prey to it.