Fairfax County: McLean Citizens Association demands smaller class sizes

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Many years ago –when Title I was relatively new—I taught Title I kids. In those days, the kids were Title I—not the school. We were given quite a bit of money. However, we were required to spend it on equipment. That meant tape recorders, filmstrip projectors (I said this was a long time ago!) etc. The teachers were livid. How much equipment do you need? Of course this was before computers. (By the way, our classes were mixed Title I and non-Title I kids). We were not supposed to use Title I equipment with non-Title I kids. It was ridiculous. We screamed and with the help of a caring principal and a brilliant teacher, we wrote up a program to hire additional teachers to reduce class size. We also used the money for a reading specialist and a math specialist dedicated to these kids. These specialists took every child every day. The math specialist took half of my class (first grade) and worked with the kids in her math lab while I drilled and did worksheets with the other half. She worked on concepts while I worked on rote. Then, we switched groups. We did the same thing with reading. Reading specialist worked on phonics, I worked on sight words and comprehension. At the end of the year, the math results were amazing. Reading was not as impressive. One teacher took the non Title I kids and the rest of us had entirely Title I. The class sizes were too big—29, as I recall, but the extra help from the specialists was critical. These “specialists” were real teachers who worked with kids—not “instructional coaches” giving advice to teachers.
FCPS spends entirely too much money on people that do not work with kids. Someone needs to figure this out. Teachers don’t need advice—the kids need real help.
I guarantee you, the Title I money could be better spent.

NO class in FCPS should have double the size of another--except special needs.

+1000! I have a complicated special ed child and the burocracy and many layers of administrative people in FCPS is crazy. The teachers are stretched so thin at my child's school and yet every time we have a meeting an extra 10 bodies from Gatehouse etc. can show up and sit like silent hunks of meat around the table? Each getting paid six figures.

[Anonymous]

Is there any research which shows the effect of smaller class sizes and instructional coaches on these schools with small class sizes? I'm not familiar with too many schools, but just looking at one near the start of the alphabet, Bucknell Elementary it is currently 250 students under capacity which could mean about 10 classrooms are being unused. It has a grades 1-6 school size of 290 with an average class size of 16 children. The school has an instructional coach and a title one resource teacher plus numerous assistants and ESOL teachers to help out in the twelve 16 student classrooms. It looks like all the housing stock is single family homes and duplexes and the school is next door to a park and private swim club that offers swim, dive, and tennis. They still have a failure rate of 50% for reading even in the 6th grade, but only 2 children typically fail the math SOL which is typical of any school. So on paper it appears the math instruction is going very well despite the school not having a math specialist and the reading instruction not well. Are there studies why it is that the failure rate is so high at a school like this and whether all these resources and additional teachers are really going to good use? Is it that the children are just coming in to the school in 5th and 6th grade and can't catch up or is this a problem for the kids starting in 1st grade as well? No amount of resources would make that school pass if they are considered a failing school based on many kids starting in the 6th grade from another country. Could it be something else other than class size that would help them? I don't want schools to fail, but I also want to understand why these schools are underperforming and how to best utilize instructors and buildings in FCPS when other schools are 250 students over capacity.

[Anonymous]

According to great schools, teachers there think the staff at the school are top notch stating "Bucknell has the most team-motivated staff that I've seen" whereas a parent says there isn't enough communication at the school. So it doesn't appear that the school is hiring poor teachers or anything like that.

[Anonymous]

Is there any research which shows the effect of smaller class sizes and instructional coaches on these schools with small class sizes?

I wonder if the studies of factory chickens vs. organic chickens are applicable. You know, when they compare chicken completely crammed into tiny cages with those with slightly more space.

Cramming so many kids into a classroom feels a little factory to me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Is there any research which shows the effect of smaller class sizes and instructional coaches on these schools with small class sizes?

I wonder if the studies of factory chickens vs. organic chickens are applicable. You know, when they compare chicken completely crammed into tiny cages with those with slightly more space.

Cramming so many kids into a classroom feels a little factory to me.

I'm not following. Buckell has an abundance of space, excessive numbers of teachers compared to other schools, and is still failing. It's in a neighborhood that was built to succeed as a middle class neighborhood with many single family homes. If any school should succeed it's this one, but it isn't. So do we throw more money at it or do we figure out a better way to teach to this neighborhood? I don't think these families or teachers want to be in a failing school either even if the class sizes are so low.

[Anonymous]

They have ample technology as well.

Bucknell has a laptop computer lab that is used by the teachers and the School Based Technology Specialist for a variety of instructional technology uses. Students work both independently and collaboratively on inquiry based projects and activities that enrich their learning experience at Bucknell and help to prepare them for their futures.

Each classroom at Bucknell has an interactive whiteboard (SmartBoard) to enhance the lesson and allow students to actively participate in learning.

The Headstart, Kindergarten, and 1st grade classrooms each have 3 Waterford stations-an Early Reading program that is customized for each students' ability and need.

Special Math and ESOL software are used on a daily basis for different groups of students for effective instruction and intervention.

Additionally, classrooms are also equipped with student stations that allow students to use laptops on a daily basis. Students in grades 4-6 are issued their own laptop to maintain and use through the school year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:7.0M out of a budget of 3.8 Billion.

If they found 2% worth of waste/fraud/abuse in the budget they could reduce the class size to 21.25 ((3,800,000,000*.02)=(76M/7.0M) =~11*.5) = class size of ~21.25)

....but they are not looking very hard

We don't need more taxes. They just need to spend the money they have wisely.

So you propose cutting not 7, but 11.5 million. Assuming this is more than message board bluster/hyperbole, what gets cut?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:7.0M out of a budget of 3.8 Billion.

If they found 2% worth of waste/fraud/abuse in the budget they could reduce the class size to 21.25 ((3,800,000,000*.02)=(76M/7.0M) =~11*.5) = class size of ~21.25)

....but they are not looking very hard

We don't need more taxes. They just need to spend the money they have wisely.

So you propose cutting not 7, but 11.5 million. Assuming this is more than message board bluster/hyperbole, what gets cut?

No. Cut 76 million (2% of the budget). Of the proposed 3.8% increase, allocate 1.8% to new spending and use the 2% to by down class sizes to 21.25 students.

It's their math (though bureaucrats are not usually good at math).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Is there any research which shows the effect of smaller class sizes and instructional coaches on these schools with small class sizes?

I wonder if the studies of factory chickens vs. organic chickens are applicable. You know, when they compare chicken completely crammed into tiny cages with those with slightly more space.

Cramming so many kids into a classroom feels a little factory to me.

I'm not following. Buckell has an abundance of space, excessive numbers of teachers compared to other schools, and is still failing. It's in a neighborhood that was built to succeed as a middle class neighborhood with many single family homes. If any school should succeed it's this one, but it isn't. So do we throw more money at it or do we figure out a better way to teach to this neighborhood? I don't think these families or teachers want to be in a failing school either even if the class sizes are so low.

The homes surrounding Bucknell are small townhomes, crappy duplexes, and old single family houses that young yuppie families don't typically want to live in, and no one is flipping/renovating many in that area because it isn't a great area. It's a tough cycle to break.

Many neighborhoods that were once succeeding in the last century are not any longer.

The title one schools benefit from extra teachers because they have SO MUCH LESS human capital than the schools in the more stable neighborhoods - in the FARMS/ESOL schools, PTAs are almost nonexistent, parents are not clamoring to volunteer for things, in many cultures it just isn't common for parents to helicopter over their children's education, parents may want to help with homework, but they just can't, because they don't know the language and materials - I could go on and on about what I see.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Is there any research which shows the effect of smaller class sizes and instructional coaches on these schools with small class sizes?

I wonder if the studies of factory chickens vs. organic chickens are applicable. You know, when they compare chicken completely crammed into tiny cages with those with slightly more space.

Cramming so many kids into a classroom feels a little factory to me.

I'm not following. Buckell has an abundance of space, excessive numbers of teachers compared to other schools, and is still failing. It's in a neighborhood that was built to succeed as a middle class neighborhood with many single family homes. If any school should succeed it's this one, but it isn't. So do we throw more money at it or do we figure out a better way to teach to this neighborhood? I don't think these families or teachers want to be in a failing school either even if the class sizes are so low.

The homes surrounding Bucknell are small townhomes, crappy duplexes, and old single family houses that young yuppie families don't typically want to live in, and no one is flipping/renovating many in that area because it isn't a great area. It's a tough cycle to break.

Many neighborhoods that were once succeeding in the last century are not any longer.

The title one schools benefit from extra teachers because they have SO MUCH LESS human capital than the schools in the more stable neighborhoods - in the FARMS/ESOL schools, PTAs are almost nonexistent, parents are not clamoring to volunteer for things, in many cultures it just isn't common for parents to helicopter over their children's education, parents may want to help with homework, but they just can't, because they don't know the language and materials - I could go on and on about what I see.

But some of these are easy fixes. There is no school with less than 300 students that has an active PTA. It's just not possible especially with a population like you described. There are parents all over FCPS who speak a many different languages and not english and still seem to get by and even have kids who excel. Look at Greenbriar West and the exploding AAP population there. Or TJ which is filled with foreign students. I looked at the stats for this school. The amount of special ed kids is nil. These kids are not born by parents on drugs. The parents just don't speak another language. If they can't help with homework because they don't know the language and materials, how about educating the parents? Is that done? Are parents basically given short lesson plans in spanish to help their children? There are bilingual reading materials that could be given out for homework instead of asking parents to read with their child for 20 minutes. Monthly newsletters on what is being covered that month with suggestions on how to help your child can be distributed bilingually. I'm not an expert, but there are parents all over the world sending their children to schools where they don't speak the language and their kids are still succeeding.

[Anonymous]

And if the schools in that area were doing well, that area would explode with rebuilding. It's very close to the city and to many businesses. For goodness sake, it's practically next to the mansion of our country's first president.

[Anonymous]

I wonder if the studies of factory chickens vs. organic chickens are applicable. You know, when they compare chicken completely crammed into tiny cages with those with slightly more space.

Cramming so many kids into a classroom feels a little factory to me.

Interesting point. I taught some pretty crowded first graders in my day (up to 35), I don't know of any research on that, but I can bet it does have an impact.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Is there any research which shows the effect of smaller class sizes and instructional coaches on these schools with small class sizes?

I wonder if the studies of factory chickens vs. organic chickens are applicable. You know, when they compare chicken completely crammed into tiny cages with those with slightly more space.

Cramming so many kids into a classroom feels a little factory to me.

I'm not following. Buckell has an abundance of space, excessive numbers of teachers compared to other schools, and is still failing. It's in a neighborhood that was built to succeed as a middle class neighborhood with many single family homes. If any school should succeed it's this one, but it isn't. So do we throw more money at it or do we figure out a better way to teach to this neighborhood? I don't think these families or teachers want to be in a failing school either even if the class sizes are so low.

The homes surrounding Bucknell are small townhomes, crappy duplexes, and old single family houses that young yuppie families don't typically want to live in, and no one is flipping/renovating many in that area because it isn't a great area. It's a tough cycle to break.

Many neighborhoods that were once succeeding in the last century are not any longer.

The title one schools benefit from extra teachers because they have SO MUCH LESS human capital than the schools in the more stable neighborhoods - in the FARMS/ESOL schools, PTAs are almost nonexistent, parents are not clamoring to volunteer for things, in many cultures it just isn't common for parents to helicopter over their children's education, parents may want to help with homework, but they just can't, because they don't know the language and materials - I could go on and on about what I see.

But some of these are easy fixes. There is no school with less than 300 students that has an active PTA. It's just not possible especially with a population like you described. There are parents all over FCPS who speak a many different languages and not english and still seem to get by and even have kids who excel. Look at Greenbriar West and the exploding AAP population there. Or TJ which is filled with foreign students. I looked at the stats for this school. The amount of special ed kids is nil. These kids are not born by parents on drugs. The parents just don't speak another language. If they can't help with homework because they don't know the language and materials, how about educating the parents? Is that done? Are parents basically given short lesson plans in spanish to help their children? There are bilingual reading materials that could be given out for homework instead of asking parents to read with their child for 20 minutes. Monthly newsletters on what is being covered that month with suggestions on how to help your child can be distributed bilingually. I'm not an expert, but there are parents all over the world sending their children to schools where they don't speak the language and their kids are still succeeding.

Do these schools allow more time for reading instruction during the day since this is the area of weakness? There are only so many hours in the day for a teacher to help a student whether she has 2 of 20 of them. Does it help for these schools to be bilingual educational classes or not? There are plenty of bilingual title 1 schools and some that aren't. Which is a better practice?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Is there any research which shows the effect of smaller class sizes and instructional coaches on these schools with small class sizes?

I wonder if the studies of factory chickens vs. organic chickens are applicable. You know, when they compare chicken completely crammed into tiny cages with those with slightly more space.

Cramming so many kids into a classroom feels a little factory to me.

I'm not following. Buckell has an abundance of space, excessive numbers of teachers compared to other schools, and is still failing. It's in a neighborhood that was built to succeed as a middle class neighborhood with many single family homes. If any school should succeed it's this one, but it isn't. So do we throw more money at it or do we figure out a better way to teach to this neighborhood? I don't think these families or teachers want to be in a failing school either even if the class sizes are so low.

The homes surrounding Bucknell are small townhomes, crappy duplexes, and old single family houses that young yuppie families don't typically want to live in, and no one is flipping/renovating many in that area because it isn't a great area. It's a tough cycle to break.

Many neighborhoods that were once succeeding in the last century are not any longer.

The title one schools benefit from extra teachers because they have SO MUCH LESS human capital than the schools in the more stable neighborhoods - in the FARMS/ESOL schools, PTAs are almost nonexistent, parents are not clamoring to volunteer for things, in many cultures it just isn't common for parents to helicopter over their children's education, parents may want to help with homework, but they just can't, because they don't know the language and materials - I could go on and on about what I see.

But some of these are easy fixes. There is no school with less than 300 students that has an active PTA. It's just not possible especially with a population like you described. There are parents all over FCPS who speak a many different languages and not english and still seem to get by and even have kids who excel. Look at Greenbriar West and the exploding AAP population there. Or TJ which is filled with foreign students. I looked at the stats for this school. The amount of special ed kids is nil. These kids are not born by parents on drugs. The parents just don't speak another language. If they can't help with homework because they don't know the language and materials, how about educating the parents? Is that done? Are parents basically given short lesson plans in spanish to help their children? There are bilingual reading materials that could be given out for homework instead of asking parents to read with their child for 20 minutes. Monthly newsletters on what is being covered that month with suggestions on how to help your child can be distributed bilingually. I'm not an expert, but there are parents all over the world sending their children to schools where they don't speak the language and their kids are still succeeding.

Our ES's school had a partner Title I school that we helped through the year. The PTAs organized several drives for their benefit. Do other schools have partner schools?

[Anonymous]

Don't use GBW as your argument. We have 1100 kids and a basically non-functional PTA. It's pathetic.