Bad News for Test Prep Parents

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

No you don't get it. Since you are so fascinated with the older Manning child, let me give an analogy using Peyton.

We want to know how far Peyton can throw the ball....How far the ball goes will be a function of the throw and the wind. If he throws 50 times in a closed stadium, the results will be meaningful. In a Hurricane, he may be able to throw the ball 100 yards down wind, or 10 yard up wind. In the storm, I could throw the ball 80 yards down wind. But inside, Peyton can throw the ball 60 years. That does not make me the better QB. The wind adds noise to the measurement. It reflects the reliability of the measurement.

Similarly, test prep for the AAP entrance exam by obtaining "the exact form of the test" by any means will severely impact the ability to measure the intelligence out of the test. Just like me throwing the football in a hurricane. I can not know how far I threw the ball, and the county can not know how much of the score was from intelligence, and how much is from prepping. (and how much was from ADD, distractions, puppies, etc). What the county is trying to measure is raw capability, not work ethic. They get that in the GBRS. And a high score on the CogAT does not make your kid smarted. It will not lead to more money. How will the county deal with this? The will ignore test scores. They will have no choice. Oh, and the county is the source on appropriate behavior in a county administered exam.

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Sounds like an excuse made by those who cannot compete on the football field, the swimming pool or the classroom. Those like Peyton, Phelps and and other high performers who work hard and prep have heard it for decades. Potential in the womb gets you no where (unless mommy and daddy have connections and generational trust funds). Even someone like Peyton understands this. That's why he preps and works hard. If one as "gifted" as Peyton and Phelps, by the poster's unabashed admission, understand this do you think these guys would not prep and work hard if their gifts were for music or math.

Excuses made by retiring flunkies signifying nothing and who fear discipline in their lives.

If your kids want to be like Peyton they WILL prepare and work hard just like high performing academicians. This has nothing to do with theft, cheating or genes. It's called discipline.

Prep is paramount in Peyton's Place. Try it, you'll be better off for it no matter your bloody IQ or how much you bench press! I am surprised FCPS doesn't know this and preach this to its all its citizens. But, don't forget to get a good night's sleep and eat hearty green ham and eggs in the morning. Peyton does so.

You are a troll. Please leave. You do not read the posts. You just say prep. No one is saying children should not prepare for life. But, we are talking about one or two specific tests that are trying to measure intelligence where the specific act of drill and practice with old tests (i.e., cheating, often called prep here) take away the ability to measure. The concern with FCPS is that from 2009-2012, the size of the AAP pool increased 50%. They think it was from people gaming/prepping. It is cheating.

My DD spends 12 hrs per day preparing for her future by school, homework, sports, and activities. That is prep. She spend some time being quizzed on vocabulary, which helps on the test. does not know which words will be on the test, so she studies all of them. That is prep, and it is encouraged.

CogAT is an attempt to measure something. Prepping invalidates the measurement. It is that simple.

wel FCPS has never said this so you are just making it up. Unless you speak for them...?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Actually, at least one has a misunderstanding about this, or simply pretends to misunderstand. No one suggests that anything is wrong with hard work and preparation.
People are suggesting that it is inappropriate for people to "prep" kids by using materials that attempt to recreate the AAP identification tests. Prepping kids in this way makes the scores unreliable to the point that some schools are simply not using them anymore. These particular tests are not meant to be prepped for and prepping results in scores that are not useful to the schools.

These threads are only about prepping for the AAP identification tests. They are not about prepping for any other type of testing, nor are they about effective ways to teach math.

More nuaunced malarky. Now we have to have the identification committees throughout the land adjudicate the legality or ethics of preparation on the basis of an identification test. Will this be at the federal level or shall will let each state do their own thing?

What rubbish.

No rubbish, and no malarky. If you read the the OP for most of these threads, they involve the AAP identification testing. Not even terribly nuanced, just fact.

Right, and here's what FCPS says about this:

Here's a link to a FCPS document that includes an explanation of why the test was changed last year:

http://www.fcps.edu/is/aap/pdfs/FAQre2012CustomizedCogAT.pdf

See fourth paragraph, first sentence:

"FCPS staff members chose to administer the custom form of the CogAT this year after it came to our attention that some students, in previous years, had prepared for the CogAT using the exact form of the CogAT being administered in FCPS."

Right.

[Anonymous]

Special ones that highly gifted kids who learn differently often have. Like an inability to complete rote work, need to be challenged in other ways. It can be difficult to recognize if you've never met this kind of kid.

Sounds like you a making a mountain out of a mole hill. I recommend FCPS take a page from the NFL annual scouting combine. Do not lock up the barbells, jump ropes and track shoes but herd the candidates all in like cattle ... bring your stop watch, measuring tape, hand out the pencils, conduct your interviews and pick your candidates. Very simple. No hue and cry about twisted parental ego massaging concepts of giftedness.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:prepping invadiates the results on a test to measure raw intelligence. You are either denser than a blackhold, a troll, or a sock puppet trying to drum up customers for your test prep business.

CogAT is a measure. Prepping may increase the score, but it does not increase the raw intelligence.

please show me where FCPS has ever said entry into AAP is dependent on raw intelligence. It is a program for high academic achievers or people with the potential for high academic achievement. Again, you are just making this up or you speak for FCPS ...?

[Anonymous]

wel FCPS has never said this so you are just making it up. Unless you speak for them...?

Here's what FCPS says about this:

Here's a link to a FCPS document that includes an explanation of why the test was changed last year:

http://www.fcps.edu/is/aap/pdfs/FAQre2012CustomizedCogAT.pdf

See fourth paragraph, first sentence:

"FCPS staff members chose to administer the custom form of the CogAT this year after it came to our attention that some students, in previous years, had prepared for the CogAT using the exact form of the CogAT being administered in FCPS."

Other schools are simply dropping the use of these scores because they have become useless due to extensive prepping. I would not be surprised if FCPS follows suit.

[Anonymous]

Special ones that highly gifted kids who learn differently often have. Like an inability to complete rote work, need to be challenged in other ways. It can be difficult to recognize if you've never met this kind of kid.

Funny, you should ask.

You put your foot in your mouth again. Even the gifted (by your own definitions) believe in preparation and hard work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

wel FCPS has never said this so you are just making it up. Unless you speak for them...?

Here's what FCPS says about this:

Here's a link to a FCPS document that includes an explanation of why the test was changed last year:

http://www.fcps.edu/is/aap/pdfs/FAQre2012CustomizedCogAT.pdf

See fourth paragraph, first sentence:

"FCPS staff members chose to administer the custom form of the CogAT this year after it came to our attention that some students, in previous years, had prepared for the CogAT using the exact form of the CogAT being administered in FCPS."
Other schools are simply dropping the use of these scores because they have become useless due to extensive prepping. I would not be surprised if FCPS follows suit.

Nowhere. Anywhere. Has FCPS ever said don't prep for the test.
Yes they changed to a different version after Mercer's prep materials were found to be so similar to the CogAt questions. But Riverside sued Mercer for infringement and lost, so now FCPS knows it cannot have a test that is free from being figued out - not even the current version.
And who knows, yes maybe they drop the use of these tests. But they are but one small part of the acceptance process. Hell, I have read on here some kids have gotten in with a 112 on the CogAt, so how hard is that?

[Anonymous]

Here's what FCPS says about this:

Here's a link to a FCPS document that includes an explanation of why the test was changed last year:

http://www.fcps.edu/is/aap/pdfs/FAQre2012CustomizedCogAT.pdf

See fourth paragraph, first sentence:

"FCPS staff members chose to administer the custom form of the CogAT this year after it came to our attention that some students, in previous years, had prepared for the CogAT using the exact form of the CogAT being administered in FCPS."

Other schools are simply dropping the use of these scores because they have become useless due to extensive prepping. I would not be surprised if FCPS follows suit.

Why do you always quote from the Delphi Oracle. You must worship the brilliance of FCPS leadership and their incoherent mumbo jumbo? I told you all these tests are useless. We have being saying this for pages. We live in the digital age of knowledge. Only a fool thinks they can measure "raw something" from a clean slate! You don't even have to invoke people running around like goblets stealing tests and chanting about the answers.

At the NFL combine they simply measure. No one cares whether you prep or work hard. The results will dictate your fate. No entitlement syndromes. Peyton understands this. He is no fool in spite of his pedigree. He preps and works hard for his passion and interest. Longstanding high performing students do the same. Your silly infatuation with tests is immaterial.

[Anonymous]

In an egalitarian system one gives everyone access to knowledge and the means of gaining such--no mumbo jumbo. Then let the Bell shape curve fall where it may if you decide to test them. A very simple solution. One that Peyton and Phelps (or any high performing musician or artist) understands well. All this nonsense about giftedness, measuring "raw" intelligence, IQ, measuring "something" is simply --- pure nonsense.

[Anonymous]

In an egalitarian system one gives everyone access to knowledge and the means of gaining such--no mumbo jumbo. Then let the Bell shape curve fall where it may if you decide to test them. A very simple solution. One that Peyton and Phelps (or any high performing musician or artist) understands well. All this nonsense about giftedness, measuring "raw" intelligence, IQ, measuring "something" is simply --- pure nonsense.

+10^10

These hypothesis driven studies aiming to measure "raw" intelligence belong in the realm of well-controlled investigation and not educational policy garbled in the changing mixed messages of a "what is/not prep?" exploited for social engineering in the community

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:In an egalitarian system one gives everyone access to knowledge and the means of gaining such--no mumbo jumbo. Then let the Bell shape curve fall where it may if you decide to test them. A very simple solution. One that Peyton and Phelps (or any high performing musician or artist) understands well. All this nonsense about giftedness, measuring "raw" intelligence, IQ, measuring "something" is simply --- pure nonsense.

Then no need for a "gifted" program or AAP, which was only allowed to serve special needs of the truly gifted.

Putting everyone back in their base schools and letting the teachers decide at which level they should be taught is the best way to handle things anyway.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In an egalitarian system one gives everyone access to knowledge and the means of gaining such--no mumbo jumbo. Then let the Bell shape curve fall where it may if you decide to test them. A very simple solution. One that Peyton and Phelps (or any high performing musician or artist) understands well. All this nonsense about giftedness, measuring "raw" intelligence, IQ, measuring "something" is simply --- pure nonsense.

Then no need for a "gifted" program or AAP, which was only allowed to serve special needs of the truly gifted.

Putting everyone back in their base schools and letting the teachers decide at which level they should be taught is the best way to handle things anyway.

pretty sure there is. State law and all that.

[Anonymous]

What's wrong with giving everybody access to testing material like the SAT? Despite this I predict there will be those with 800-800-8000 and 200-200-2000 and everything in between

or

What's wrong with throwing out the test as some high powered institutions of higher education are doing and using other means to ferret out their precious highly "gifted" performers?


I like these ideas better than advise to get a good night sleep and eat a hearty breakfast (take 2 aspirins then call me in the morning approach when I am awake and rested approach). I already get a good night's rest and eat breakfast.

[Anonymous]

not if "giftedness" is nonsense.

[Anonymous]

why not?

Giftedness is nonsense but the raw performance score is material...whether you are gifted or not, whether you prep or work hard. Just ask Peyton with all the pedigree. Performance is what counts.