UK, Italy, France quality decline, now poorer than all 50 states

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’d rather live in any of those places than here. The universal healthcare alone would be a relief.

Exactly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm waiting for 2008 Nobel Prize winner Paul Krugman™ to pop up and tell us how wrong we all still are and promote his substack newsletter.

Do posters who quote people who use data and facts that you can't intelligently respond to intimidate you? Since you asked am summarizing one of his recent posts here.

#PaulKrugman
Is Europe in Economic Decline?
Interrogating the conventional wisdom that Europe is lagging America
Does Europe have a lower standard of living than the U.S?

When comparing the economic performance of various countries, economists often begin with measures of gross domestic product (GDP) per capita at purchasing power parity. GDP is the total value of goods and services produced in a country, and GDP per capita is a relevant measure of the country’s overall standard of living. “Purchasing power parity” (PPP) corrects for differences in national price levels, which is especially important because fluctuations in exchange rates between currencies, such as the relative values of the dollar and the euro, can cause temporary fluctuations in measured GDP that have nothing to do with underlying economic performance.

Here is PPP GDP per capita in the three big European Union economies as a percentage of the United States over the past 25 years:
Chart 1

European economies do produce less per person than the U.S. does. Indeed, as many observers have pointed out, France and Italy have GDP per capita comparable to poor U.S. states like Alabama:
Chart 2

But let’s step back for a moment and ask: how reasonable is it to compare the economic performance of France, and Europe in general, with the poorest states in America?

Let’s start with impressions: France definitely doesn’t look or feel as poor as Alabama or Mississippi. Granted, subjective impressions are no substitute for hard data. But the “walking around test” isn’t worthless, either. If the look and feel of an economy don’t match up with the story told by standard numbers, that’s at least a gut check, a reason to look for the sources of the dissonance.

More substantively, nonmonetary comparisons between Europe and the United States are unlike the usual comparisons when one stacks poor nations against a richer country. Consider the following items:

· Globally, rich nations normally have higher life expectancy than poor nations. But life expectancy in France is 4.7 years higher than in the United States — and 9 years higher than in Alabama

· The overall US literacy rate is well below rates in other wealthy nations, and far below levels in Europe

· While the US and China dominate most information technology industries, with Europe a distant third — more on that later — access to and use of IT are basically comparable in the US and Europe

Understand that I’m not saying that the GDP numbers are wrong. What I am saying, however, is that the story “Europe is poor” is misleading.

A clearly important issue that is not captured by GDP per capita comparisons is income inequality, which is much higher in the US than in Europe. It is arithmetically inescapable that the high share of US income going to the top 1 percent and the top 10 percent renders most Americans worse off than the overall high level of GDP per capita would indicate.

However, quantifying this effect is, to be frank, a statistical can of worms, especially because some important goods and services — notably health care — are mainly government-provided in Europe while a significant share is privately-provided in the United States. My colleagues at the Stone Center on Socio-Economic Inequality, who are experts on the topic of income inequality, are not convinced by some widely cited analyses of this issue. So for now, I will simply assert that the role of income inequality in underestimating the performance of Europe versus the US is an important component, but one to which I can’t put exact numbers.

Am pretty sure Paul Krugman is posting here. Who else would keep proclaiming he's a Nobel Prize winner and self promoting a blog?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not everything is about money. These countries have fewer social problems and live longer in better health.

This. Quality of life in the US sucks for that majority of us at this point.

I actually don't think it does! I think we just have a morale problem. We somehow think that everyone else has it better, but they don't. I think we need a big campaign to bring happiness back to the US and that starts with less complaining and more looking internally at all the great things you do have. Of course, Americans also fritter away too much money on consumer items, the latest car, etc and then complain about spending 10k a year on health care. I know I complained about my unpaid maternity leave, but I make 3x what my counterpart in Europe does (165k vs 50k). Even with 12 weeks unpaid, I still made more that year.

Yes, some things do need fixed in America, but the average person has so many great things going on in their lives. We just can't see it because we're blinded by nonstop complaining on tiktok and reddit (I'm convinced some of these are foreign bots).

But do you pay a lot of tax on what you made and what do you get for those taxes? And those premiums, which I'm know are huge? I just feel like I'm spending all my money and not getting much for it. Wars.

Have you ever lived in Europe? Do you have European friends?

I have more money and investments that provide me freedom
A larger, nicer home with less mortgage debt
More space
A safer, new vehicle
More disposable income

Go do some research on effective tax rates and various metrics so you can see how much less you pay in taxes when considering things like state taxes, VAT etc.

NP but I have lived in Europe, and it was a better and more fulfilling lifestyle in every possible way.

We made half the salary there than we do now in the US. We lived in an ~1500 sqft apartment in a major city, versus our very nice 3000+ sqft house in the US suburbs. We had one older vehicle there, two larger, newer vehicles here. (We rarely had to use our car there, we are slaves to our vehicles here.) We have lots of space here, sure. But we had lots of things to do there, people to see, places to go, all within a very close proximity (i.e. walking/biking distance).

I would go back in a heartbeat were it not for family obligations that pulled me back to the US. Our lifestyle is great by American standards; but American standards are sorely lacking, IMO.

I'd love the European lifestyle with a comfortable flat in a central urban location and offices and amenities all within easy reach either on foot or short public transportation ride away. I'd love to live in central Munich or Copenhagen. But that's not how most Europeans live. The average European lives in a small, often tiny, apartment in an outer (cheaper) suburb or a modest townhouse, long commutes to work on public transportation, which can and often does break down or has delays, cars are very popular in Europe for same reasons as in the US. Let's not confuse the European UMC lifestyle with the everyday, predominately working class, lifestyle. It's not bad, I'm not implying it at all, there are absolutely virtues to the typical European social contract, but it's a lot more nuanced than a brief experience of living the affluent urban lifestyle in Paris may tell you.

Please tell me what the average American lifestyle is.

The Bethesda lifestyle is certainly very UMC. You could certainly rent a 2 or 3 bedroom flat in London about a 10-15 min walk from a tube stop for less than the rent for a 3 or 4 bedroom house in Bethesda. Some would prefer that, others not.

Suburban house in a suburb with decent schools and two cars in the driveway.

Sure tons of variations in the US with lifestyles. The suburban one is the most common. And there's also tons of variations in Europe too. It's not all living in chic urban areas.

Incidentially, I know London pretty well (guaranteed that I know it better than you do). I wouldn't boast about a 2-3 bedroom flat 10-15 min walk from a tube stop when it's a cramped old Victorian conversion with paper thin walls and wonky plumbing and it's always raining during the 15 minute walk to the tube, which is packed during rush hour and moist and grimy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not everything is about money. These countries have fewer social problems and live longer in better health.

This. Quality of life in the US sucks for that majority of us at this point.

I actually don't think it does! I think we just have a morale problem. We somehow think that everyone else has it better, but they don't. I think we need a big campaign to bring happiness back to the US and that starts with less complaining and more looking internally at all the great things you do have. Of course, Americans also fritter away too much money on consumer items, the latest car, etc and then complain about spending 10k a year on health care. I know I complained about my unpaid maternity leave, but I make 3x what my counterpart in Europe does (165k vs 50k). Even with 12 weeks unpaid, I still made more that year.

Yes, some things do need fixed in America, but the average person has so many great things going on in their lives. We just can't see it because we're blinded by nonstop complaining on tiktok and reddit (I'm convinced some of these are foreign bots).

But do you pay a lot of tax on what you made and what do you get for those taxes? And those premiums, which I'm know are huge? I just feel like I'm spending all my money and not getting much for it. Wars.

Have you ever lived in Europe? Do you have European friends?

I have more money and investments that provide me freedom
A larger, nicer home with less mortgage debt
More space
A safer, new vehicle
More disposable income

Go do some research on effective tax rates and various metrics so you can see how much less you pay in taxes when considering things like state taxes, VAT etc.

NP but I have lived in Europe, and it was a better and more fulfilling lifestyle in every possible way.

We made half the salary there than we do now in the US. We lived in an ~1500 sqft apartment in a major city, versus our very nice 3000+ sqft house in the US suburbs. We had one older vehicle there, two larger, newer vehicles here. (We rarely had to use our car there, we are slaves to our vehicles here.) We have lots of space here, sure. But we had lots of things to do there, people to see, places to go, all within a very close proximity (i.e. walking/biking distance).

I would go back in a heartbeat were it not for family obligations that pulled me back to the US. Our lifestyle is great by American standards; but American standards are sorely lacking, IMO.

I'd love the European lifestyle with a comfortable flat in a central urban location and offices and amenities all within easy reach either on foot or short public transportation ride away. I'd love to live in central Munich or Copenhagen. But that's not how most Europeans live. The average European lives in a small, often tiny, apartment in an outer (cheaper) suburb or a modest townhouse, long commutes to work on public transportation, which can and often does break down or has delays, cars are very popular in Europe for same reasons as in the US. Let's not confuse the European UMC lifestyle with the everyday, predominately working class, lifestyle. It's not bad, I'm not implying it at all, there are absolutely virtues to the typical European social contract, but it's a lot more nuanced than a brief experience of living the affluent urban lifestyle in Paris may tell you.

Now tell us how the average working class American lives! Let’s compare class to class! Instead of pretending the largely upper middle class to upper class of giant McMansion in a suburb with good schools is representative of how most Americans live.

Let’s talk about the inner city slums and the country trailer parks. Let’s talk about the forced car lifestyle (and debt to go with it) because there is very little ACCESS to public transit (breakdowns would be a nice problem to have).

You’re trying to have it both ways - comparing the best of America to the worst of Europe.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not everything is about money. These countries have fewer social problems and live longer in better health.

This. Quality of life in the US sucks for that majority of us at this point.

I actually don't think it does! I think we just have a morale problem. We somehow think that everyone else has it better, but they don't. I think we need a big campaign to bring happiness back to the US and that starts with less complaining and more looking internally at all the great things you do have. Of course, Americans also fritter away too much money on consumer items, the latest car, etc and then complain about spending 10k a year on health care. I know I complained about my unpaid maternity leave, but I make 3x what my counterpart in Europe does (165k vs 50k). Even with 12 weeks unpaid, I still made more that year.

Yes, some things do need fixed in America, but the average person has so many great things going on in their lives. We just can't see it because we're blinded by nonstop complaining on tiktok and reddit (I'm convinced some of these are foreign bots).

But do you pay a lot of tax on what you made and what do you get for those taxes? And those premiums, which I'm know are huge? I just feel like I'm spending all my money and not getting much for it. Wars.

Have you ever lived in Europe? Do you have European friends?

I have more money and investments that provide me freedom
A larger, nicer home with less mortgage debt
More space
A safer, new vehicle
More disposable income

Go do some research on effective tax rates and various metrics so you can see how much less you pay in taxes when considering things like state taxes, VAT etc.

NP but I have lived in Europe, and it was a better and more fulfilling lifestyle in every possible way.

We made half the salary there than we do now in the US. We lived in an ~1500 sqft apartment in a major city, versus our very nice 3000+ sqft house in the US suburbs. We had one older vehicle there, two larger, newer vehicles here. (We rarely had to use our car there, we are slaves to our vehicles here.) We have lots of space here, sure. But we had lots of things to do there, people to see, places to go, all within a very close proximity (i.e. walking/biking distance).

I would go back in a heartbeat were it not for family obligations that pulled me back to the US. Our lifestyle is great by American standards; but American standards are sorely lacking, IMO.

I'd love the European lifestyle with a comfortable flat in a central urban location and offices and amenities all within easy reach either on foot or short public transportation ride away. I'd love to live in central Munich or Copenhagen. But that's not how most Europeans live. The average European lives in a small, often tiny, apartment in an outer (cheaper) suburb or a modest townhouse, long commutes to work on public transportation, which can and often does break down or has delays, cars are very popular in Europe for same reasons as in the US. Let's not confuse the European UMC lifestyle with the everyday, predominately working class, lifestyle. It's not bad, I'm not implying it at all, there are absolutely virtues to the typical European social contract, but it's a lot more nuanced than a brief experience of living the affluent urban lifestyle in Paris may tell you.

Please tell me what the average American lifestyle is.

The Bethesda lifestyle is certainly very UMC. You could certainly rent a 2 or 3 bedroom flat in London about a 10-15 min walk from a tube stop for less than the rent for a 3 or 4 bedroom house in Bethesda. Some would prefer that, others not.

Suburban house in a suburb with decent schools and two cars in the driveway.

Sure tons of variations in the US with lifestyles. The suburban one is the most common. And there's also tons of variations in Europe too. It's not all living in chic urban areas.

Incidentially, I know London pretty well (guaranteed that I know it better than you do). I wouldn't boast about a 2-3 bedroom flat 10-15 min walk from a tube stop when it's a cramped old Victorian conversion with paper thin walls and wonky plumbing and it's always raining during the 15 minute walk to the tube, which is packed during rush hour and moist and grimy.

Congratulations for knowing London pretty well but I’m not sure why you feel the need to be belligerent. Nobody’s boasting. I was simply saying that an UMC lifestyle in Bethesda could translate to a very nice lifestyle in London. Some would prefer one and others would prefer the other though. I probably do know London a bit better than you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not everything is about money. These countries have fewer social problems and live longer in better health.

This. Quality of life in the US sucks for that majority of us at this point.

I actually don't think it does! I think we just have a morale problem. We somehow think that everyone else has it better, but they don't. I think we need a big campaign to bring happiness back to the US and that starts with less complaining and more looking internally at all the great things you do have. Of course, Americans also fritter away too much money on consumer items, the latest car, etc and then complain about spending 10k a year on health care. I know I complained about my unpaid maternity leave, but I make 3x what my counterpart in Europe does (165k vs 50k). Even with 12 weeks unpaid, I still made more that year.

Yes, some things do need fixed in America, but the average person has so many great things going on in their lives. We just can't see it because we're blinded by nonstop complaining on tiktok and reddit (I'm convinced some of these are foreign bots).

But do you pay a lot of tax on what you made and what do you get for those taxes? And those premiums, which I'm know are huge? I just feel like I'm spending all my money and not getting much for it. Wars.

Have you ever lived in Europe? Do you have European friends?

I have more money and investments that provide me freedom
A larger, nicer home with less mortgage debt
More space
A safer, new vehicle
More disposable income

Go do some research on effective tax rates and various metrics so you can see how much less you pay in taxes when considering things like state taxes, VAT etc.

NP but I have lived in Europe, and it was a better and more fulfilling lifestyle in every possible way.

We made half the salary there than we do now in the US. We lived in an ~1500 sqft apartment in a major city, versus our very nice 3000+ sqft house in the US suburbs. We had one older vehicle there, two larger, newer vehicles here. (We rarely had to use our car there, we are slaves to our vehicles here.) We have lots of space here, sure. But we had lots of things to do there, people to see, places to go, all within a very close proximity (i.e. walking/biking distance).

I would go back in a heartbeat were it not for family obligations that pulled me back to the US. Our lifestyle is great by American standards; but American standards are sorely lacking, IMO.

I'd love the European lifestyle with a comfortable flat in a central urban location and offices and amenities all within easy reach either on foot or short public transportation ride away. I'd love to live in central Munich or Copenhagen. But that's not how most Europeans live. The average European lives in a small, often tiny, apartment in an outer (cheaper) suburb or a modest townhouse, long commutes to work on public transportation, which can and often does break down or has delays, cars are very popular in Europe for same reasons as in the US. Let's not confuse the European UMC lifestyle with the everyday, predominately working class, lifestyle. It's not bad, I'm not implying it at all, there are absolutely virtues to the typical European social contract, but it's a lot more nuanced than a brief experience of living the affluent urban lifestyle in Paris may tell you.

Yes. My brother and sil, who both have good jobs, live in a crappy cheaper city adjacent to a nicer city. It was where they could afford to buy at all, and now 10 years later they could not even afford it. There are gangs and drugs, increasingly so, and even gun fights. Public transportation is very good, but not that convenient to their specific workplace in a different area of the nice city. My brother bikes to work, not a scenic route: just busy roads and pollution and gray skies a lot of the year. And my sil often needs her car to drive to various job sites. If you can afford to live in the center area of the nice city? A total dream, amazing lifestyle. But it's where richer people live, or old people who bought ages ago. Americans have an idealistic view because they do not see how actual people live.

Love how you’re demanding a scenic route for a bike commute to work in Europe, when a bike commute is simply a non-starter in much of the US.

It’s actually hilarious how much cope there is in this thread.

[Anonymous]

Out of curiosity I looked up the percentage of car ownership in various cities. NYC has fewer cars per household than Paris, Amsterdam and London. Boston, London, Atlanta and San Francisco are roughly the same. Berlin has the lowest rate for large cities in Europe. And good luck not having a car anywhere rural in Europe!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm waiting for 2008 Nobel Prize winner Paul Krugman™ to pop up and tell us how wrong we all still are and promote his substack newsletter.

Do posters who quote people who use data and facts that you can't intelligently respond to intimidate you? Since you asked am summarizing one of his recent posts here.

#PaulKrugman
Is Europe in Economic Decline?
Interrogating the conventional wisdom that Europe is lagging America
Does Europe have a lower standard of living than the U.S?

When comparing the economic performance of various countries, economists often begin with measures of gross domestic product (GDP) per capita at purchasing power parity. GDP is the total value of goods and services produced in a country, and GDP per capita is a relevant measure of the country’s overall standard of living. “Purchasing power parity” (PPP) corrects for differences in national price levels, which is especially important because fluctuations in exchange rates between currencies, such as the relative values of the dollar and the euro, can cause temporary fluctuations in measured GDP that have nothing to do with underlying economic performance.

Here is PPP GDP per capita in the three big European Union economies as a percentage of the United States over the past 25 years:
Chart 1

European economies do produce less per person than the U.S. does. Indeed, as many observers have pointed out, France and Italy have GDP per capita comparable to poor U.S. states like Alabama:
Chart 2

But let’s step back for a moment and ask: how reasonable is it to compare the economic performance of France, and Europe in general, with the poorest states in America?

Let’s start with impressions: France definitely doesn’t look or feel as poor as Alabama or Mississippi. Granted, subjective impressions are no substitute for hard data. But the “walking around test” isn’t worthless, either. If the look and feel of an economy don’t match up with the story told by standard numbers, that’s at least a gut check, a reason to look for the sources of the dissonance.

More substantively, nonmonetary comparisons between Europe and the United States are unlike the usual comparisons when one stacks poor nations against a richer country. Consider the following items:

· Globally, rich nations normally have higher life expectancy than poor nations. But life expectancy in France is 4.7 years higher than in the United States — and 9 years higher than in Alabama

· The overall US literacy rate is well below rates in other wealthy nations, and far below levels in Europe

· While the US and China dominate most information technology industries, with Europe a distant third — more on that later — access to and use of IT are basically comparable in the US and Europe

Understand that I’m not saying that the GDP numbers are wrong. What I am saying, however, is that the story “Europe is poor” is misleading.

A clearly important issue that is not captured by GDP per capita comparisons is income inequality, which is much higher in the US than in Europe. It is arithmetically inescapable that the high share of US income going to the top 1 percent and the top 10 percent renders most Americans worse off than the overall high level of GDP per capita would indicate.

However, quantifying this effect is, to be frank, a statistical can of worms, especially because some important goods and services — notably health care — are mainly government-provided in Europe while a significant share is privately-provided in the United States. My colleagues at the Stone Center on Socio-Economic Inequality, who are experts on the topic of income inequality, are not convinced by some widely cited analyses of this issue. So for now, I will simply assert that the role of income inequality in underestimating the performance of Europe versus the US is an important component, but one to which I can’t put exact numbers.

Am pretty sure Paul Krugman is posting here. Who else would keep proclaiming he's a Nobel Prize winner and self promoting a blog?

That's cute that you think that--I guess in your social circle, people who read and cite actual researchers must be uncommon.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’d rather live in any of those places than here. The universal healthcare alone would be a relief.

Exactly.

a relief from what, available heatlhcare and quality? Yes it may be expensive but remember we make like twice the amount of europe and its doesn't cost as much comapred to the taxes on income.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’d rather live in any of those places than here. The universal healthcare alone would be a relief.

Exactly.

a relief from what, available heatlhcare and quality? Yes it may be expensive but remember we make like twice the amount of europe and its doesn't cost as much comapred to the taxes on income.

NP-Healthcare is better quality in the US by far compared to Europe (more screening and testing, newer meds available, more advanced tech, more specialists, faster visits and procedures...) but the way it works in terms of payments should be made more equal and smoother. Many pay through taxes for some healthcare programs without benefitting (until old age) AND also have to pay for no-subsidy ACA plans or employer plans which are more and more expensive for many as (I know that's my personal case) some employers are now not really contributing as much for dependents. And some people opt out entirely due to cost or simply not knowing how to navigate programs they could be eligible for. It's not sustainable in the long run and we would really benefit from a public option. Some states have done that already or are in the process of doing it, but it's not sweeping enough and we really need some sort of federal offering.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Out of curiosity I looked up the percentage of car ownership in various cities. NYC has fewer cars per household than Paris, Amsterdam and London. Boston, London, Atlanta and San Francisco are roughly the same. Berlin has the lowest rate for large cities in Europe. And good luck not having a car anywhere rural in Europe!

I suppose that makes sense given NYC’s population density. Car ownership probably depends a lot on the degree of urbanisation, which accounts for about 75% of Europe’s population as a whole but is obviously variable across countries.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Out of curiosity I looked up the percentage of car ownership in various cities. NYC has fewer cars per household than Paris, Amsterdam and London. Boston, London, Atlanta and San Francisco are roughly the same. Berlin has the lowest rate for large cities in Europe. And good luck not having a car anywhere rural in Europe!

I suppose that makes sense given NYC’s population density. Car ownership probably depends a lot on the degree of urbanisation, which accounts for about 75% of Europe’s population as a whole but is obviously variable across countries.

Part of why that urbanisation percentage is so high is that small villages can be grouped as being in urban clusters of larger cities if they are within a certain density metric of that city. So if you are in a tiny village 10, 20, even 50 kms away from a larger 50k people town, you could still be considered as living in an urban zone depending on specific contiguous density. You could however still need a car for anything but bread or a newspaper.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So much misinformation and half truths.
These nations beat the US in almost every measure - infant mortality, violent crimes, percent of population in prison, wage gap, health care access… but yes, let’s obsess about taxation rate.

US is the nicest 3rd world country I've visited.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So much misinformation and half truths.
These nations beat the US in almost every measure - infant mortality, violent crimes, percent of population in prison, wage gap, health care access… but yes, let’s obsess about taxation rate.

US is the nicest 3rd world country I've visited.

Yup, the expected lifespan is higher in most of Europe, homicides are far lower, vacation is longer and Northern and Western European countries consistently dominate the top of the World Happiness Report. There's some serious copium going on in this thread.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’d rather live in any of those places than here. The universal healthcare alone would be a relief.

Exactly.

a relief from what, available heatlhcare and quality? Yes it may be expensive but remember we make like twice the amount of europe and its doesn't cost as much comapred to the taxes on income.

Available healthcare? What are you talking about? You think there aren’t LONG waitlists in the US?