The only way to have equity is to drag down the top performers

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Comparing kids in special education to gifted kids is really two sides of the same coin. Put aside the fact that many are twice exceptional, Maryland law REQUIRES schools serve the needs of both and MCPS is failing in both. Can we agree on that fact?

https://www.marylandpublicschools.org/programs/Documents/Gifted-Talented/COMAR_13A0407_GT_Education.pdf

No, I don't think they're failing on both in nearly the same degree. Kids and staff are getting physically harmed because special education programs are not being appropriately resourced. MCPS is failing students with special needs at the most basic level.

There's no comparison here.

You're not reading what the PP actually wrote. It's not about which students are being ignored the most, it's that MCPS is failing at differentiated education, which is required by law. Both are a symptom of a broader problem, and we won't see better outcomes for any of the children involved until there's solidarity to push back on MCPS.

Based on the sheer number of advanced programs across all schools, it's hard to make a strong case that they're failing gifted students. Could they do more? Of course. But they're certainly not failing them anywhere near the same degree as students with special needs

So… we should take away what they are doing for gifted kids to make things more equitable for kids with disabilities? I.e. “kids with disabilities aren’t getting enough so gifted kids should get even less.” Is that your argument? How does taking away gifted ed opportunities fix the special ed problem? Hint, it doesn’t.

No, I'm not arguing that at all. I'm saying your comparisons to special education are ignorant, offensive, and simply false.

You keep hammering on the same thing, but you're ignoring what's being said. BOTH special education and gifted education fall under the umbrella of special education and educational differentiation. You can get mad at the educational philosophy/system that has grouped them together all you want, but what is being said is not with the intent to offend, and it's certainly not ignorance. You seem to be ignorant to how educational systems categorize special education with gifted education. Why do you keep coming at this in such a triggered way? Why does it have to be pitting one group of students against another group of students (never mind as PP noted the many twice exceptional gifted students who have IEPs etc)? Don't you see that so much more could be accomplished in actual REAL pressure on MCPS if you approached it as an all boats rising situation? We should have parent solidarity across ALL needs of differentiation.

I'm not the one that started the comparison between gifted students and special with special needs. For example:

If education for ALL is really what we are aiming for, and if we are okay with tiny, publicly-funded classes for special ed, then we should be okay paying for similar classes for gifted kids.

But we’re not.

Because of the optics- nobody in the US really likes gifted kids! Like, culturally.

And

Comparing kids in special education to gifted kids is really two sides of the same coin. Put aside the fact that many are twice exceptional, Maryland law REQUIRES schools serve the needs of both and MCPS is failing in both. Can we agree on that fact?

Your claim that you want to pursue a "rising tide lifts all boats" strategy might be more credible if you weren't focused on a single policy aimed at advantaged students.

I have come to the conclusion that you're being willfully dense. It's the same policy. It's the same policy. It's the same policy. Full stop. What PP was pointing out was that even though its the same policy, culturally there's a lot more public support for special education than for gifted education. Like for example how you flipped out about even including those two types of education under the same umbrella. We understand and agree with you that MCPS should be doing more for special education. See? That's not hard. Now try the other way around without flipping out and using whatever shaming words you want to drag up.

One has nothing to do with the other. Two very different needs and populations though some gifted kids have SN.

Gifted kids and kids with intellectual disabilities are actually very similar. It’s all about the fact that their brains work differently than “typical” kids. There’s a whole movement to get giftedness itself recognized as a neurodivergence (https://www.prismadvocacy.com/blog/understanding-giftedness-as-neurodivergence). It’s not just that gifted kids are quicker and bored, they need fundamentally different supports just like those with a learning disability. But because these kids aren’t struggling on standardized tests (though struggling in other ways) people like this poster don’t see giftedness for what it is.

You are completely tone death and very insulting.

And you clearly don’t have a gifted kid. I do. And I watch her struggle every day. She has a 504 for anxiety too, but according to her psychiatrist the anxiety directly derives from her giftedness. I am not arguing for services to be taken away from students with disabilities yet you are arguing for services to be taken away from gifted kids. Why?

DP

You truly cannot fathom that while your child is legitimately struggling, other people's children are legitimately struggling much, much more?

And you know this ... how?

Really? You think a gifted child with a 504 for anxiety is struggling the same amount as a child with ID not on the diploma track? Do you get that basically all children with autism have anxiety in addition to social communication deficits?

Seriously, what is this competition that you've built in your head? Why is helping other kids who struggle somehow taking away help from your own? If this is really the paradigm that you're building in your mind, then you should be angry at MCPS, not other parents asking for help.

I am not the one arguing that if kids with disabilities get "tiny sheltered classes" then my kid needs one too. It's not a competition. My goal is to get you folks to stop using other people's children to advocate for your own children. Just advocate for your kids! Leave mine out of it.

But they are the same, my child is gifted and has disabilities. I'm sorry they don't fit into your Venn diagram of worthy special education.

I don't have a venn diagram. Please don't use my child to advocate for your child. It's that simple.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Why do people say it’s offensive to talk about special ed but so easily feel like they can tell the parent of a gift child “they’ll be fine”? It’s so clearly a double standard. Public tax dollars should support both.

I’d love new programs but I’m not even asking for that. I’m asking for them to stop destroying the programs they have. Stop with the lotteries. Stop with the “regional” honors for all nonsense. Reinstate cohorts for 4th grade ELA. And go back to what was once regarded as an incredibly supportive district for gifted students.

I don't say gift kids will be "fine". I do think they need services. I take offense at the implication that kids with disabilities in self contained classrooms some kind of affront to your gifted child or a sign your kid is being treated unfairly.

Well you're getting triggered by things that aren't being said, so good luck with that

Here is what was said:
"We pay for special ed teachers to run tiny sheltered classes for the disabled. Why can’t we pay gifted teachers to run tiny sheltered classes (magnets!) for the highly able students?"

The answer to the question is because the special ed students need smaller classes and most of them do not get them. Calling them "sheltered" is offensive beyond belief.

Do you get there are different levels of need? That a special education student that qualifies for a self contained classroom most likely has higher needs than a child that is gifted (of course there are exceptions)? Can we stop pretending that if "those" kids get something then that means your kid should get the same thing?

Equity does not equal "same"

Can we stop pretending that this is some kind of competition? Jesus you're exhausting

And for what it's worth (which I see is nothing to you), my child is identified as both gifted, and can barely function at school because of disabilities that aren't supported.

But the PP literally stated she wants the same thing ("tiny sheltered classes") as what kids with disabilities get.

Sorry you don't think I see your worth or whatever it is you are trying to imply. I don't know who you are or anything about you except that you are an a-hole.

I know it’s difficult on an anonymous board but realize there are multiple posters here saying slightly different things. I didn’t argue for “tiny sheltered classes” but the point remains that MCPS is taking away gifted opportunities AND it is not serving students with disabilities well either.

You're at least settling back on an accurate statement.

Though, there's still the issue of priorities. Any parent, teacher, or student in MCPS is going to have legitimate complaints. And while it would be great to address all of them, that's realistically not going to happen- particularly in the current budget and political environment.

A broad call for improving programs focused on gifted and talented is not likely to be viewed by many as one of the more pressing issues in MCPS worthy of additional funding and resources. You may have more success arguing concrete proposals, particularly ones that may not have a substantial cost.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Comparing kids in special education to gifted kids is really two sides of the same coin. Put aside the fact that many are twice exceptional, Maryland law REQUIRES schools serve the needs of both and MCPS is failing in both. Can we agree on that fact?

https://www.marylandpublicschools.org/programs/Documents/Gifted-Talented/COMAR_13A0407_GT_Education.pdf

No, I don't think they're failing on both in nearly the same degree. Kids and staff are getting physically harmed because special education programs are not being appropriately resourced. MCPS is failing students with special needs at the most basic level.

There's no comparison here.

You're not reading what the PP actually wrote. It's not about which students are being ignored the most, it's that MCPS is failing at differentiated education, which is required by law. Both are a symptom of a broader problem, and we won't see better outcomes for any of the children involved until there's solidarity to push back on MCPS.

Based on the sheer number of advanced programs across all schools, it's hard to make a strong case that they're failing gifted students. Could they do more? Of course. But they're certainly not failing them anywhere near the same degree as students with special needs

So… we should take away what they are doing for gifted kids to make things more equitable for kids with disabilities? I.e. “kids with disabilities aren’t getting enough so gifted kids should get even less.” Is that your argument? How does taking away gifted ed opportunities fix the special ed problem? Hint, it doesn’t.

No, I'm not arguing that at all. I'm saying your comparisons to special education are ignorant, offensive, and simply false.

You keep hammering on the same thing, but you're ignoring what's being said. BOTH special education and gifted education fall under the umbrella of special education and educational differentiation. You can get mad at the educational philosophy/system that has grouped them together all you want, but what is being said is not with the intent to offend, and it's certainly not ignorance. You seem to be ignorant to how educational systems categorize special education with gifted education. Why do you keep coming at this in such a triggered way? Why does it have to be pitting one group of students against another group of students (never mind as PP noted the many twice exceptional gifted students who have IEPs etc)? Don't you see that so much more could be accomplished in actual REAL pressure on MCPS if you approached it as an all boats rising situation? We should have parent solidarity across ALL needs of differentiation.

I'm not the one that started the comparison between gifted students and special with special needs. For example:

If education for ALL is really what we are aiming for, and if we are okay with tiny, publicly-funded classes for special ed, then we should be okay paying for similar classes for gifted kids.

But we’re not.

Because of the optics- nobody in the US really likes gifted kids! Like, culturally.

And

Comparing kids in special education to gifted kids is really two sides of the same coin. Put aside the fact that many are twice exceptional, Maryland law REQUIRES schools serve the needs of both and MCPS is failing in both. Can we agree on that fact?

Your claim that you want to pursue a "rising tide lifts all boats" strategy might be more credible if you weren't focused on a single policy aimed at advantaged students.

I have come to the conclusion that you're being willfully dense. It's the same policy. It's the same policy. It's the same policy. Full stop. What PP was pointing out was that even though its the same policy, culturally there's a lot more public support for special education than for gifted education. Like for example how you flipped out about even including those two types of education under the same umbrella. We understand and agree with you that MCPS should be doing more for special education. See? That's not hard. Now try the other way around without flipping out and using whatever shaming words you want to drag up.

One has nothing to do with the other. Two very different needs and populations though some gifted kids have SN.

Gifted kids and kids with intellectual disabilities are actually very similar. It’s all about the fact that their brains work differently than “typical” kids. There’s a whole movement to get giftedness itself recognized as a neurodivergence (https://www.prismadvocacy.com/blog/understanding-giftedness-as-neurodivergence). It’s not just that gifted kids are quicker and bored, they need fundamentally different supports just like those with a learning disability. But because these kids aren’t struggling on standardized tests (though struggling in other ways) people like this poster don’t see giftedness for what it is.

You are completely tone death and very insulting.

And you clearly don’t have a gifted kid. I do. And I watch her struggle every day. She has a 504 for anxiety too, but according to her psychiatrist the anxiety directly derives from her giftedness. I am not arguing for services to be taken away from students with disabilities yet you are arguing for services to be taken away from gifted kids. Why?

DP

You truly cannot fathom that while your child is legitimately struggling, other people's children are legitimately struggling much, much more?

And you know this ... how?

Really? You think a gifted child with a 504 for anxiety is struggling the same amount as a child with ID not on the diploma track? Do you get that basically all children with autism have anxiety in addition to social communication deficits?

Seriously, what is this competition that you've built in your head? Why is helping other kids who struggle somehow taking away help from your own? If this is really the paradigm that you're building in your mind, then you should be angry at MCPS, not other parents asking for help.

I am not the one arguing that if kids with disabilities get "tiny sheltered classes" then my kid needs one too. It's not a competition. My goal is to get you folks to stop using other people's children to advocate for your own children. Just advocate for your kids! Leave mine out of it.

The problem is, and you’re just the example of this, people see the value of special education and serving kids with disabilities (and again, not saying MCPS does it well, it doesn’t, we’ve established that) but people don’t see the value of serving gifted kids; they don’t understand that it can be debilitating for kids to not get the challenge and support and cohort they need. It’s not about your kid. It’s not about special ed at all. It’s about the need to serve gifted kids, too.

Of course people see the value! There are programs for gifted kids. Money is being allocated to this. It might not be enough, but I mean, join the club

Then you clearly haven't been following the news of what's being proposed. Why are you even on this thread? The programs are going away. The money is going away. Many programs have already gone away.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Comparing kids in special education to gifted kids is really two sides of the same coin. Put aside the fact that many are twice exceptional, Maryland law REQUIRES schools serve the needs of both and MCPS is failing in both. Can we agree on that fact?

https://www.marylandpublicschools.org/programs/Documents/Gifted-Talented/COMAR_13A0407_GT_Education.pdf

No, I don't think they're failing on both in nearly the same degree. Kids and staff are getting physically harmed because special education programs are not being appropriately resourced. MCPS is failing students with special needs at the most basic level.

There's no comparison here.

You're not reading what the PP actually wrote. It's not about which students are being ignored the most, it's that MCPS is failing at differentiated education, which is required by law. Both are a symptom of a broader problem, and we won't see better outcomes for any of the children involved until there's solidarity to push back on MCPS.

Based on the sheer number of advanced programs across all schools, it's hard to make a strong case that they're failing gifted students. Could they do more? Of course. But they're certainly not failing them anywhere near the same degree as students with special needs

So… we should take away what they are doing for gifted kids to make things more equitable for kids with disabilities? I.e. “kids with disabilities aren’t getting enough so gifted kids should get even less.” Is that your argument? How does taking away gifted ed opportunities fix the special ed problem? Hint, it doesn’t.

No, I'm not arguing that at all. I'm saying your comparisons to special education are ignorant, offensive, and simply false.

You keep hammering on the same thing, but you're ignoring what's being said. BOTH special education and gifted education fall under the umbrella of special education and educational differentiation. You can get mad at the educational philosophy/system that has grouped them together all you want, but what is being said is not with the intent to offend, and it's certainly not ignorance. You seem to be ignorant to how educational systems categorize special education with gifted education. Why do you keep coming at this in such a triggered way? Why does it have to be pitting one group of students against another group of students (never mind as PP noted the many twice exceptional gifted students who have IEPs etc)? Don't you see that so much more could be accomplished in actual REAL pressure on MCPS if you approached it as an all boats rising situation? We should have parent solidarity across ALL needs of differentiation.

I'm not the one that started the comparison between gifted students and special with special needs. For example:

If education for ALL is really what we are aiming for, and if we are okay with tiny, publicly-funded classes for special ed, then we should be okay paying for similar classes for gifted kids.

But we’re not.

Because of the optics- nobody in the US really likes gifted kids! Like, culturally.

And

Comparing kids in special education to gifted kids is really two sides of the same coin. Put aside the fact that many are twice exceptional, Maryland law REQUIRES schools serve the needs of both and MCPS is failing in both. Can we agree on that fact?

Your claim that you want to pursue a "rising tide lifts all boats" strategy might be more credible if you weren't focused on a single policy aimed at advantaged students.

I have come to the conclusion that you're being willfully dense. It's the same policy. It's the same policy. It's the same policy. Full stop. What PP was pointing out was that even though its the same policy, culturally there's a lot more public support for special education than for gifted education. Like for example how you flipped out about even including those two types of education under the same umbrella. We understand and agree with you that MCPS should be doing more for special education. See? That's not hard. Now try the other way around without flipping out and using whatever shaming words you want to drag up.

One has nothing to do with the other. Two very different needs and populations though some gifted kids have SN.

Gifted kids and kids with intellectual disabilities are actually very similar. It’s all about the fact that their brains work differently than “typical” kids. There’s a whole movement to get giftedness itself recognized as a neurodivergence (https://www.prismadvocacy.com/blog/understanding-giftedness-as-neurodivergence). It’s not just that gifted kids are quicker and bored, they need fundamentally different supports just like those with a learning disability. But because these kids aren’t struggling on standardized tests (though struggling in other ways) people like this poster don’t see giftedness for what it is.

You are completely tone death and very insulting.

And you clearly don’t have a gifted kid. I do. And I watch her struggle every day. She has a 504 for anxiety too, but according to her psychiatrist the anxiety directly derives from her giftedness. I am not arguing for services to be taken away from students with disabilities yet you are arguing for services to be taken away from gifted kids. Why?

DP

You truly cannot fathom that while your child is legitimately struggling, other people's children are legitimately struggling much, much more?

And you know this ... how?

Really? You think a gifted child with a 504 for anxiety is struggling the same amount as a child with ID not on the diploma track? Do you get that basically all children with autism have anxiety in addition to social communication deficits?

Seriously, what is this competition that you've built in your head? Why is helping other kids who struggle somehow taking away help from your own? If this is really the paradigm that you're building in your mind, then you should be angry at MCPS, not other parents asking for help.

I am not the one arguing that if kids with disabilities get "tiny sheltered classes" then my kid needs one too. It's not a competition. My goal is to get you folks to stop using other people's children to advocate for your own children. Just advocate for your kids! Leave mine out of it.

But they are the same, my child is gifted and has disabilities. I'm sorry they don't fit into your Venn diagram of worthy special education.

I don't have a venn diagram. Please don't use my child to advocate for your child. It's that simple.

Since when am I talking about your child? I'm talking about my own.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Comparing kids in special education to gifted kids is really two sides of the same coin. Put aside the fact that many are twice exceptional, Maryland law REQUIRES schools serve the needs of both and MCPS is failing in both. Can we agree on that fact?

https://www.marylandpublicschools.org/programs/Documents/Gifted-Talented/COMAR_13A0407_GT_Education.pdf

No, I don't think they're failing on both in nearly the same degree. Kids and staff are getting physically harmed because special education programs are not being appropriately resourced. MCPS is failing students with special needs at the most basic level.

There's no comparison here.

You're not reading what the PP actually wrote. It's not about which students are being ignored the most, it's that MCPS is failing at differentiated education, which is required by law. Both are a symptom of a broader problem, and we won't see better outcomes for any of the children involved until there's solidarity to push back on MCPS.

Based on the sheer number of advanced programs across all schools, it's hard to make a strong case that they're failing gifted students. Could they do more? Of course. But they're certainly not failing them anywhere near the same degree as students with special needs

So… we should take away what they are doing for gifted kids to make things more equitable for kids with disabilities? I.e. “kids with disabilities aren’t getting enough so gifted kids should get even less.” Is that your argument? How does taking away gifted ed opportunities fix the special ed problem? Hint, it doesn’t.

No, I'm not arguing that at all. I'm saying your comparisons to special education are ignorant, offensive, and simply false.

You keep hammering on the same thing, but you're ignoring what's being said. BOTH special education and gifted education fall under the umbrella of special education and educational differentiation. You can get mad at the educational philosophy/system that has grouped them together all you want, but what is being said is not with the intent to offend, and it's certainly not ignorance. You seem to be ignorant to how educational systems categorize special education with gifted education. Why do you keep coming at this in such a triggered way? Why does it have to be pitting one group of students against another group of students (never mind as PP noted the many twice exceptional gifted students who have IEPs etc)? Don't you see that so much more could be accomplished in actual REAL pressure on MCPS if you approached it as an all boats rising situation? We should have parent solidarity across ALL needs of differentiation.

I'm not the one that started the comparison between gifted students and special with special needs. For example:

If education for ALL is really what we are aiming for, and if we are okay with tiny, publicly-funded classes for special ed, then we should be okay paying for similar classes for gifted kids.

But we’re not.

Because of the optics- nobody in the US really likes gifted kids! Like, culturally.

And

Comparing kids in special education to gifted kids is really two sides of the same coin. Put aside the fact that many are twice exceptional, Maryland law REQUIRES schools serve the needs of both and MCPS is failing in both. Can we agree on that fact?

Your claim that you want to pursue a "rising tide lifts all boats" strategy might be more credible if you weren't focused on a single policy aimed at advantaged students.

I have come to the conclusion that you're being willfully dense. It's the same policy. It's the same policy. It's the same policy. Full stop. What PP was pointing out was that even though its the same policy, culturally there's a lot more public support for special education than for gifted education. Like for example how you flipped out about even including those two types of education under the same umbrella. We understand and agree with you that MCPS should be doing more for special education. See? That's not hard. Now try the other way around without flipping out and using whatever shaming words you want to drag up.

One has nothing to do with the other. Two very different needs and populations though some gifted kids have SN.

Gifted kids and kids with intellectual disabilities are actually very similar. It’s all about the fact that their brains work differently than “typical” kids. There’s a whole movement to get giftedness itself recognized as a neurodivergence (https://www.prismadvocacy.com/blog/understanding-giftedness-as-neurodivergence). It’s not just that gifted kids are quicker and bored, they need fundamentally different supports just like those with a learning disability. But because these kids aren’t struggling on standardized tests (though struggling in other ways) people like this poster don’t see giftedness for what it is.

You are completely tone death and very insulting.

And you clearly don’t have a gifted kid. I do. And I watch her struggle every day. She has a 504 for anxiety too, but according to her psychiatrist the anxiety directly derives from her giftedness. I am not arguing for services to be taken away from students with disabilities yet you are arguing for services to be taken away from gifted kids. Why?

DP

You truly cannot fathom that while your child is legitimately struggling, other people's children are legitimately struggling much, much more?

And you know this ... how?

Really? You think a gifted child with a 504 for anxiety is struggling the same amount as a child with ID not on the diploma track? Do you get that basically all children with autism have anxiety in addition to social communication deficits?

Seriously, what is this competition that you've built in your head? Why is helping other kids who struggle somehow taking away help from your own? If this is really the paradigm that you're building in your mind, then you should be angry at MCPS, not other parents asking for help.

I am not the one arguing that if kids with disabilities get "tiny sheltered classes" then my kid needs one too. It's not a competition. My goal is to get you folks to stop using other people's children to advocate for your own children. Just advocate for your kids! Leave mine out of it.

The problem is, and you’re just the example of this, people see the value of special education and serving kids with disabilities (and again, not saying MCPS does it well, it doesn’t, we’ve established that) but people don’t see the value of serving gifted kids; they don’t understand that it can be debilitating for kids to not get the challenge and support and cohort they need. It’s not about your kid. It’s not about special ed at all. It’s about the need to serve gifted kids, too.

Of course people see the value! There are programs for gifted kids. Money is being allocated to this. It might not be enough, but I mean, join the club

Except right now MCPS is destroying all of the gifted programs that once made it a model for other districts serving gifted kids. ELC is gone. Cohorting for 4th grade ELA is essentially gone at most schools. The magnets are now lottery based. And they’re about to obliterate the other magnets. The point is not new programs. The point is stopping the destruction of what’s already been

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Why do people say it’s offensive to talk about special ed but so easily feel like they can tell the parent of a gift child “they’ll be fine”? It’s so clearly a double standard. Public tax dollars should support both.

I don't say gift kids will be "fine". I do think they need services. I take offense at the implication that kids with disabilities in self contained classrooms some kind of affront to your gifted child or a sign your kid is being treated unfairly.

Well you're getting triggered by things that aren't being said, so good luck with that

Here is what was said:
"We pay for special ed teachers to run tiny sheltered classes for the disabled. Why can’t we pay gifted teachers to run tiny sheltered classes (magnets!) for the highly able students?"

The answer to the question is because the special ed students need smaller classes and most of them do not get them. Calling them "sheltered" is offensive beyond belief.

Do you get there are different levels of need? That a special education student that qualifies for a self contained classroom most likely has higher needs than a child that is gifted (of course there are exceptions)? Can we stop pretending that if "those" kids get something then that means your kid should get the same thing?

Equity does not equal "same"

Can we stop pretending that this is some kind of competition? Jesus you're exhausting

And for what it's worth (which I see is nothing to you), my child is identified as both gifted, and can barely function at school because of disabilities that aren't supported.

But the PP literally stated she wants the same thing ("tiny sheltered classes") as what kids with disabilities get.

Sorry you don't think I see your worth or whatever it is you are trying to imply. I don't know who you are or anything about you except that you are an a-hole.

I know it’s difficult on an anonymous board but realize there are multiple posters here saying slightly different things. I didn’t argue for “tiny sheltered classes” but the point remains that MCPS is taking away gifted opportunities AND it is not serving students with disabilities well either.

You're at least settling back on an accurate statement.

Though, there's still the issue of priorities. Any parent, teacher, or student in MCPS is going to have legitimate complaints. And while it would be great to address all of them, that's realistically not going to happen- particularly in the current budget and political environment.

A broad call for improving programs focused on gifted and talented is not likely to be viewed by many as one of the more pressing issues in MCPS worthy of additional funding and resources. You may have more success arguing concrete proposals, particularly ones that may not have a substantial cost.

And why not? Why is gifted education never prioritized? Because people say- “they’ll be fine”. Nice people. Well meaning people.

It sucks.

The reason PPs bring up special ed is because no one disputes their need for specialized/differentiated instruction. I don’t want to take anything away from special ed. Gifted education is a type of special ed- kids who don’t learn like other kids and who deserve to be cohorted with their peers.

Why can’t parents who have to fight for their kids’ rights for special services join forces with this crop of parents whose kids’ needs are not being met? Let’s put pressure on MCPS to actually differentiate instruction. One size does not fit all!

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Comparing kids in special education to gifted kids is really two sides of the same coin. Put aside the fact that many are twice exceptional, Maryland law REQUIRES schools serve the needs of both and MCPS is failing in both. Can we agree on that fact?

https://www.marylandpublicschools.org/programs/Documents/Gifted-Talented/COMAR_13A0407_GT_Education.pdf

No, I don't think they're failing on both in nearly the same degree. Kids and staff are getting physically harmed because special education programs are not being appropriately resourced. MCPS is failing students with special needs at the most basic level.

There's no comparison here.

You're not reading what the PP actually wrote. It's not about which students are being ignored the most, it's that MCPS is failing at differentiated education, which is required by law. Both are a symptom of a broader problem, and we won't see better outcomes for any of the children involved until there's solidarity to push back on MCPS.

Based on the sheer number of advanced programs across all schools, it's hard to make a strong case that they're failing gifted students. Could they do more? Of course. But they're certainly not failing them anywhere near the same degree as students with special needs

So… we should take away what they are doing for gifted kids to make things more equitable for kids with disabilities? I.e. “kids with disabilities aren’t getting enough so gifted kids should get even less.” Is that your argument? How does taking away gifted ed opportunities fix the special ed problem? Hint, it doesn’t.

No, I'm not arguing that at all. I'm saying your comparisons to special education are ignorant, offensive, and simply false.

You keep hammering on the same thing, but you're ignoring what's being said. BOTH special education and gifted education fall under the umbrella of special education and educational differentiation. You can get mad at the educational philosophy/system that has grouped them together all you want, but what is being said is not with the intent to offend, and it's certainly not ignorance. You seem to be ignorant to how educational systems categorize special education with gifted education. Why do you keep coming at this in such a triggered way? Why does it have to be pitting one group of students against another group of students (never mind as PP noted the many twice exceptional gifted students who have IEPs etc)? Don't you see that so much more could be accomplished in actual REAL pressure on MCPS if you approached it as an all boats rising situation? We should have parent solidarity across ALL needs of differentiation.

I'm not the one that started the comparison between gifted students and special with special needs. For example:

If education for ALL is really what we are aiming for, and if we are okay with tiny, publicly-funded classes for special ed, then we should be okay paying for similar classes for gifted kids.

But we’re not.

Because of the optics- nobody in the US really likes gifted kids! Like, culturally.

And

Comparing kids in special education to gifted kids is really two sides of the same coin. Put aside the fact that many are twice exceptional, Maryland law REQUIRES schools serve the needs of both and MCPS is failing in both. Can we agree on that fact?

Your claim that you want to pursue a "rising tide lifts all boats" strategy might be more credible if you weren't focused on a single policy aimed at advantaged students.

I have come to the conclusion that you're being willfully dense. It's the same policy. It's the same policy. It's the same policy. Full stop. What PP was pointing out was that even though its the same policy, culturally there's a lot more public support for special education than for gifted education. Like for example how you flipped out about even including those two types of education under the same umbrella. We understand and agree with you that MCPS should be doing more for special education. See? That's not hard. Now try the other way around without flipping out and using whatever shaming words you want to drag up.

One has nothing to do with the other. Two very different needs and populations though some gifted kids have SN.

Gifted kids and kids with intellectual disabilities are actually very similar. It’s all about the fact that their brains work differently than “typical” kids. There’s a whole movement to get giftedness itself recognized as a neurodivergence (https://www.prismadvocacy.com/blog/understanding-giftedness-as-neurodivergence). It’s not just that gifted kids are quicker and bored, they need fundamentally different supports just like those with a learning disability. But because these kids aren’t struggling on standardized tests (though struggling in other ways) people like this poster don’t see giftedness for what it is.

You are completely tone death and very insulting.

And you clearly don’t have a gifted kid. I do. And I watch her struggle every day. She has a 504 for anxiety too, but according to her psychiatrist the anxiety directly derives from her giftedness. I am not arguing for services to be taken away from students with disabilities yet you are arguing for services to be taken away from gifted kids. Why?

DP

You truly cannot fathom that while your child is legitimately struggling, other people's children are legitimately struggling much, much more?

And you know this ... how?

Really? You think a gifted child with a 504 for anxiety is struggling the same amount as a child with ID not on the diploma track? Do you get that basically all children with autism have anxiety in addition to social communication deficits?

Seriously, what is this competition that you've built in your head? Why is helping other kids who struggle somehow taking away help from your own? If this is really the paradigm that you're building in your mind, then you should be angry at MCPS, not other parents asking for help.

I am not the one arguing that if kids with disabilities get "tiny sheltered classes" then my kid needs one too. It's not a competition. My goal is to get you folks to stop using other people's children to advocate for your own children. Just advocate for your kids! Leave mine out of it.

But they are the same, my child is gifted and has disabilities. I'm sorry they don't fit into your Venn diagram of worthy special education.

I don't have a venn diagram. Please don't use my child to advocate for your child. It's that simple.

Since when am I talking about your child? I'm talking about my own.

It may not be you, but there's at least one poster here attempting to conflate gifted and talented programs with special education programs. It's not a good look for your cause and it would be in your best interest to encourage him to stop.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Comparing kids in special education to gifted kids is really two sides of the same coin. Put aside the fact that many are twice exceptional, Maryland law REQUIRES schools serve the needs of both and MCPS is failing in both. Can we agree on that fact?

https://www.marylandpublicschools.org/programs/Documents/Gifted-Talented/COMAR_13A0407_GT_Education.pdf

No, I don't think they're failing on both in nearly the same degree. Kids and staff are getting physically harmed because special education programs are not being appropriately resourced. MCPS is failing students with special needs at the most basic level.

There's no comparison here.

You're not reading what the PP actually wrote. It's not about which students are being ignored the most, it's that MCPS is failing at differentiated education, which is required by law. Both are a symptom of a broader problem, and we won't see better outcomes for any of the children involved until there's solidarity to push back on MCPS.

Based on the sheer number of advanced programs across all schools, it's hard to make a strong case that they're failing gifted students. Could they do more? Of course. But they're certainly not failing them anywhere near the same degree as students with special needs

So… we should take away what they are doing for gifted kids to make things more equitable for kids with disabilities? I.e. “kids with disabilities aren’t getting enough so gifted kids should get even less.” Is that your argument? How does taking away gifted ed opportunities fix the special ed problem? Hint, it doesn’t.

No, I'm not arguing that at all. I'm saying your comparisons to special education are ignorant, offensive, and simply false.

You keep hammering on the same thing, but you're ignoring what's being said. BOTH special education and gifted education fall under the umbrella of special education and educational differentiation. You can get mad at the educational philosophy/system that has grouped them together all you want, but what is being said is not with the intent to offend, and it's certainly not ignorance. You seem to be ignorant to how educational systems categorize special education with gifted education. Why do you keep coming at this in such a triggered way? Why does it have to be pitting one group of students against another group of students (never mind as PP noted the many twice exceptional gifted students who have IEPs etc)? Don't you see that so much more could be accomplished in actual REAL pressure on MCPS if you approached it as an all boats rising situation? We should have parent solidarity across ALL needs of differentiation.

I'm not the one that started the comparison between gifted students and special with special needs. For example:

If education for ALL is really what we are aiming for, and if we are okay with tiny, publicly-funded classes for special ed, then we should be okay paying for similar classes for gifted kids.

But we’re not.

Because of the optics- nobody in the US really likes gifted kids! Like, culturally.

And

Comparing kids in special education to gifted kids is really two sides of the same coin. Put aside the fact that many are twice exceptional, Maryland law REQUIRES schools serve the needs of both and MCPS is failing in both. Can we agree on that fact?

Your claim that you want to pursue a "rising tide lifts all boats" strategy might be more credible if you weren't focused on a single policy aimed at advantaged students.

I have come to the conclusion that you're being willfully dense. It's the same policy. It's the same policy. It's the same policy. Full stop. What PP was pointing out was that even though its the same policy, culturally there's a lot more public support for special education than for gifted education. Like for example how you flipped out about even including those two types of education under the same umbrella. We understand and agree with you that MCPS should be doing more for special education. See? That's not hard. Now try the other way around without flipping out and using whatever shaming words you want to drag up.

One has nothing to do with the other. Two very different needs and populations though some gifted kids have SN.

Gifted kids and kids with intellectual disabilities are actually very similar. It’s all about the fact that their brains work differently than “typical” kids. There’s a whole movement to get giftedness itself recognized as a neurodivergence (https://www.prismadvocacy.com/blog/understanding-giftedness-as-neurodivergence). It’s not just that gifted kids are quicker and bored, they need fundamentally different supports just like those with a learning disability. But because these kids aren’t struggling on standardized tests (though struggling in other ways) people like this poster don’t see giftedness for what it is.

You are completely tone death and very insulting.

And you clearly don’t have a gifted kid. I do. And I watch her struggle every day. She has a 504 for anxiety too, but according to her psychiatrist the anxiety directly derives from her giftedness. I am not arguing for services to be taken away from students with disabilities yet you are arguing for services to be taken away from gifted kids. Why?

DP

You truly cannot fathom that while your child is legitimately struggling, other people's children are legitimately struggling much, much more?

And you know this ... how?

Really? You think a gifted child with a 504 for anxiety is struggling the same amount as a child with ID not on the diploma track? Do you get that basically all children with autism have anxiety in addition to social communication deficits?

Seriously, what is this competition that you've built in your head? Why is helping other kids who struggle somehow taking away help from your own? If this is really the paradigm that you're building in your mind, then you should be angry at MCPS, not other parents asking for help.

I am not the one arguing that if kids with disabilities get "tiny sheltered classes" then my kid needs one too. It's not a competition. My goal is to get you folks to stop using other people's children to advocate for your own children. Just advocate for your kids! Leave mine out of it.

But they are the same, my child is gifted and has disabilities. I'm sorry they don't fit into your Venn diagram of worthy special education.

I don't have a venn diagram. Please don't use my child to advocate for your child. It's that simple.

Since when am I talking about your child? I'm talking about my own.

Great! Keep doing that?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why do people say it’s offensive to talk about special ed but so easily feel like they can tell the parent of a gift child “they’ll be fine”? It’s so clearly a double standard. Public tax dollars should support both.

I don't say gift kids will be "fine". I do think they need services. I take offense at the implication that kids with disabilities in self contained classrooms some kind of affront to your gifted child or a sign your kid is being treated unfairly.

Well you're getting triggered by things that aren't being said, so good luck with that

Here is what was said:
"We pay for special ed teachers to run tiny sheltered classes for the disabled. Why can’t we pay gifted teachers to run tiny sheltered classes (magnets!) for the highly able students?"

The answer to the question is because the special ed students need smaller classes and most of them do not get them. Calling them "sheltered" is offensive beyond belief.

Do you get there are different levels of need? That a special education student that qualifies for a self contained classroom most likely has higher needs than a child that is gifted (of course there are exceptions)? Can we stop pretending that if "those" kids get something then that means your kid should get the same thing?

Equity does not equal "same"

Can we stop pretending that this is some kind of competition? Jesus you're exhausting

And for what it's worth (which I see is nothing to you), my child is identified as both gifted, and can barely function at school because of disabilities that aren't supported.

But the PP literally stated she wants the same thing ("tiny sheltered classes") as what kids with disabilities get.

Sorry you don't think I see your worth or whatever it is you are trying to imply. I don't know who you are or anything about you except that you are an a-hole.

I know it’s difficult on an anonymous board but realize there are multiple posters here saying slightly different things. I didn’t argue for “tiny sheltered classes” but the point remains that MCPS is taking away gifted opportunities AND it is not serving students with disabilities well either.

You're at least settling back on an accurate statement.

Though, there's still the issue of priorities. Any parent, teacher, or student in MCPS is going to have legitimate complaints. And while it would be great to address all of them, that's realistically not going to happen- particularly in the current budget and political environment.

A broad call for improving programs focused on gifted and talented is not likely to be viewed by many as one of the more pressing issues in MCPS worthy of additional funding and resources. You may have more success arguing concrete proposals, particularly ones that may not have a substantial cost.

And why not? Why is gifted education never prioritized? Because people say- “they’ll be fine”. Nice people. Well meaning people.

It sucks.

The reason PPs bring up special ed is because no one disputes their need for specialized/differentiated instruction. I don’t want to take anything away from special ed. Gifted education is a type of special ed- kids who don’t learn like other kids and who deserve to be cohorted with their peers.

Why can’t parents who have to fight for their kids’ rights for special services join forces with this crop of parents whose kids’ needs are not being met? Let’s put pressure on MCPS to actually differentiate instruction. One size does not fit all!

You don't know what you are talking about. You dgaf about non gifted kids. We aren't going to join your cause.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why do people say it’s offensive to talk about special ed but so easily feel like they can tell the parent of a gift child “they’ll be fine”? It’s so clearly a double standard. Public tax dollars should support both.

I don't say gift kids will be "fine". I do think they need services. I take offense at the implication that kids with disabilities in self contained classrooms some kind of affront to your gifted child or a sign your kid is being treated unfairly.

Well you're getting triggered by things that aren't being said, so good luck with that

Here is what was said:
"We pay for special ed teachers to run tiny sheltered classes for the disabled. Why can’t we pay gifted teachers to run tiny sheltered classes (magnets!) for the highly able students?"

The answer to the question is because the special ed students need smaller classes and most of them do not get them. Calling them "sheltered" is offensive beyond belief.

Do you get there are different levels of need? That a special education student that qualifies for a self contained classroom most likely has higher needs than a child that is gifted (of course there are exceptions)? Can we stop pretending that if "those" kids get something then that means your kid should get the same thing?

Equity does not equal "same"

Can we stop pretending that this is some kind of competition? Jesus you're exhausting

And for what it's worth (which I see is nothing to you), my child is identified as both gifted, and can barely function at school because of disabilities that aren't supported.

But the PP literally stated she wants the same thing ("tiny sheltered classes") as what kids with disabilities get.

Sorry you don't think I see your worth or whatever it is you are trying to imply. I don't know who you are or anything about you except that you are an a-hole.

I know it’s difficult on an anonymous board but realize there are multiple posters here saying slightly different things. I didn’t argue for “tiny sheltered classes” but the point remains that MCPS is taking away gifted opportunities AND it is not serving students with disabilities well either.

You're at least settling back on an accurate statement.

Though, there's still the issue of priorities. Any parent, teacher, or student in MCPS is going to have legitimate complaints. And while it would be great to address all of them, that's realistically not going to happen- particularly in the current budget and political environment.

A broad call for improving programs focused on gifted and talented is not likely to be viewed by many as one of the more pressing issues in MCPS worthy of additional funding and resources. You may have more success arguing concrete proposals, particularly ones that may not have a substantial cost.

And why not? Why is gifted education never prioritized? Because people say- “they’ll be fine”. Nice people. Well meaning people.

It sucks.

The reason PPs bring up special ed is because no one disputes their need for specialized/differentiated instruction. I don’t want to take anything away from special ed. Gifted education is a type of special ed- kids who don’t learn like other kids and who deserve to be cohorted with their peers.

Why can’t parents who have to fight for their kids’ rights for special services join forces with this crop of parents whose kids’ needs are not being met? Let’s put pressure on MCPS to actually differentiate instruction. One size does not fit all!

You don't know what you are talking about. You dgaf about non gifted kids. We aren't going to join your cause.

And that’s exactly the point of the last oh how many pages have you been arguing? We’re saying MCPS isn’t serving the needs of students well — special ed or gifted — let’s team up together. And you’re arguing that only special ed deserves the support. That’s entirely the problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Comparing kids in special education to gifted kids is really two sides of the same coin. Put aside the fact that many are twice exceptional, Maryland law REQUIRES schools serve the needs of both and MCPS is failing in both. Can we agree on that fact?

https://www.marylandpublicschools.org/programs/Documents/Gifted-Talented/COMAR_13A0407_GT_Education.pdf

No, I don't think they're failing on both in nearly the same degree. Kids and staff are getting physically harmed because special education programs are not being appropriately resourced. MCPS is failing students with special needs at the most basic level.

There's no comparison here.

You're not reading what the PP actually wrote. It's not about which students are being ignored the most, it's that MCPS is failing at differentiated education, which is required by law. Both are a symptom of a broader problem, and we won't see better outcomes for any of the children involved until there's solidarity to push back on MCPS.

Based on the sheer number of advanced programs across all schools, it's hard to make a strong case that they're failing gifted students. Could they do more? Of course. But they're certainly not failing them anywhere near the same degree as students with special needs

So… we should take away what they are doing for gifted kids to make things more equitable for kids with disabilities? I.e. “kids with disabilities aren’t getting enough so gifted kids should get even less.” Is that your argument? How does taking away gifted ed opportunities fix the special ed problem? Hint, it doesn’t.

No, I'm not arguing that at all. I'm saying your comparisons to special education are ignorant, offensive, and simply false.

You keep hammering on the same thing, but you're ignoring what's being said. BOTH special education and gifted education fall under the umbrella of special education and educational differentiation. You can get mad at the educational philosophy/system that has grouped them together all you want, but what is being said is not with the intent to offend, and it's certainly not ignorance. You seem to be ignorant to how educational systems categorize special education with gifted education. Why do you keep coming at this in such a triggered way? Why does it have to be pitting one group of students against another group of students (never mind as PP noted the many twice exceptional gifted students who have IEPs etc)? Don't you see that so much more could be accomplished in actual REAL pressure on MCPS if you approached it as an all boats rising situation? We should have parent solidarity across ALL needs of differentiation.

I'm not the one that started the comparison between gifted students and special with special needs. For example:

If education for ALL is really what we are aiming for, and if we are okay with tiny, publicly-funded classes for special ed, then we should be okay paying for similar classes for gifted kids.

But we’re not.

Because of the optics- nobody in the US really likes gifted kids! Like, culturally.

And

Comparing kids in special education to gifted kids is really two sides of the same coin. Put aside the fact that many are twice exceptional, Maryland law REQUIRES schools serve the needs of both and MCPS is failing in both. Can we agree on that fact?

Your claim that you want to pursue a "rising tide lifts all boats" strategy might be more credible if you weren't focused on a single policy aimed at advantaged students.

I have come to the conclusion that you're being willfully dense. It's the same policy. It's the same policy. It's the same policy. Full stop. What PP was pointing out was that even though its the same policy, culturally there's a lot more public support for special education than for gifted education. Like for example how you flipped out about even including those two types of education under the same umbrella. We understand and agree with you that MCPS should be doing more for special education. See? That's not hard. Now try the other way around without flipping out and using whatever shaming words you want to drag up.

One has nothing to do with the other. Two very different needs and populations though some gifted kids have SN.

Gifted kids and kids with intellectual disabilities are actually very similar. It’s all about the fact that their brains work differently than “typical” kids. There’s a whole movement to get giftedness itself recognized as a neurodivergence (https://www.prismadvocacy.com/blog/understanding-giftedness-as-neurodivergence). It’s not just that gifted kids are quicker and bored, they need fundamentally different supports just like those with a learning disability. But because these kids aren’t struggling on standardized tests (though struggling in other ways) people like this poster don’t see giftedness for what it is.

You are completely tone death and very insulting.

And you clearly don’t have a gifted kid. I do. And I watch her struggle every day. She has a 504 for anxiety too, but according to her psychiatrist the anxiety directly derives from her giftedness. I am not arguing for services to be taken away from students with disabilities yet you are arguing for services to be taken away from gifted kids. Why?

DP

You truly cannot fathom that while your child is legitimately struggling, other people's children are legitimately struggling much, much more?

And you know this ... how?

Really? You think a gifted child with a 504 for anxiety is struggling the same amount as a child with ID not on the diploma track? Do you get that basically all children with autism have anxiety in addition to social communication deficits?

Seriously, what is this competition that you've built in your head? Why is helping other kids who struggle somehow taking away help from your own? If this is really the paradigm that you're building in your mind, then you should be angry at MCPS, not other parents asking for help.

I am not the one arguing that if kids with disabilities get "tiny sheltered classes" then my kid needs one too. It's not a competition. My goal is to get you folks to stop using other people's children to advocate for your own children. Just advocate for your kids! Leave mine out of it.

But they are the same, my child is gifted and has disabilities. I'm sorry they don't fit into your Venn diagram of worthy special education.

I don't have a venn diagram. Please don't use my child to advocate for your child. It's that simple.

Since when am I talking about your child? I'm talking about my own.

It may not be you, but there's at least one poster here attempting to conflate gifted and talented programs with special education programs. It's not a good look for your cause and it would be in your best interest to encourage him to stop.

Look, I understand that it's not possible to help you understand both fall under the umbrella of differentiation, that both recognize that one-size-fits-all approaches do not serve the child. You clearly don't want allies and you want to die on this hill alone. Enough said, we get it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why do people say it’s offensive to talk about special ed but so easily feel like they can tell the parent of a gift child “they’ll be fine”? It’s so clearly a double standard. Public tax dollars should support both.

I don't say gift kids will be "fine". I do think they need services. I take offense at the implication that kids with disabilities in self contained classrooms some kind of affront to your gifted child or a sign your kid is being treated unfairly.

Well you're getting triggered by things that aren't being said, so good luck with that

Here is what was said:
"We pay for special ed teachers to run tiny sheltered classes for the disabled. Why can’t we pay gifted teachers to run tiny sheltered classes (magnets!) for the highly able students?"

The answer to the question is because the special ed students need smaller classes and most of them do not get them. Calling them "sheltered" is offensive beyond belief.

Do you get there are different levels of need? That a special education student that qualifies for a self contained classroom most likely has higher needs than a child that is gifted (of course there are exceptions)? Can we stop pretending that if "those" kids get something then that means your kid should get the same thing?

Equity does not equal "same"

Can we stop pretending that this is some kind of competition? Jesus you're exhausting

And for what it's worth (which I see is nothing to you), my child is identified as both gifted, and can barely function at school because of disabilities that aren't supported.

But the PP literally stated she wants the same thing ("tiny sheltered classes") as what kids with disabilities get.

Sorry you don't think I see your worth or whatever it is you are trying to imply. I don't know who you are or anything about you except that you are an a-hole.

I know it’s difficult on an anonymous board but realize there are multiple posters here saying slightly different things. I didn’t argue for “tiny sheltered classes” but the point remains that MCPS is taking away gifted opportunities AND it is not serving students with disabilities well either.

You're at least settling back on an accurate statement.

Though, there's still the issue of priorities. Any parent, teacher, or student in MCPS is going to have legitimate complaints. And while it would be great to address all of them, that's realistically not going to happen- particularly in the current budget and political environment.

A broad call for improving programs focused on gifted and talented is not likely to be viewed by many as one of the more pressing issues in MCPS worthy of additional funding and resources. You may have more success arguing concrete proposals, particularly ones that may not have a substantial cost.

And why not? Why is gifted education never prioritized? Because people say- “they’ll be fine”. Nice people. Well meaning people.

It sucks.

The reason PPs bring up special ed is because no one disputes their need for specialized/differentiated instruction. I don’t want to take anything away from special ed. Gifted education is a type of special ed- kids who don’t learn like other kids and who deserve to be cohorted with their peers.

Why can’t parents who have to fight for their kids’ rights for special services join forces with this crop of parents whose kids’ needs are not being met? Let’s put pressure on MCPS to actually differentiate instruction. One size does not fit all!

You don't know what you are talking about. You dgaf about non gifted kids. We aren't going to join your cause.

And that’s exactly the point of the last oh how many pages have you been arguing? We’re saying MCPS isn’t serving the needs of students well — special ed or gifted — let’s team up together. And you’re arguing that only special ed deserves the support. That’s entirely the problem.

Um I am definitely not saying that.

Let me spell it out for you. You are a selfish moron. You think all of us with kids with disabilities are going to stand up and fight for your kids and that we'll just trust you to fight for ours. I do not for a second believe you will do that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why do people say it’s offensive to talk about special ed but so easily feel like they can tell the parent of a gift child “they’ll be fine”? It’s so clearly a double standard. Public tax dollars should support both.

I don't say gift kids will be "fine". I do think they need services. I take offense at the implication that kids with disabilities in self contained classrooms some kind of affront to your gifted child or a sign your kid is being treated unfairly.

Well you're getting triggered by things that aren't being said, so good luck with that

Here is what was said:
"We pay for special ed teachers to run tiny sheltered classes for the disabled. Why can’t we pay gifted teachers to run tiny sheltered classes (magnets!) for the highly able students?"

The answer to the question is because the special ed students need smaller classes and most of them do not get them. Calling them "sheltered" is offensive beyond belief.

Do you get there are different levels of need? That a special education student that qualifies for a self contained classroom most likely has higher needs than a child that is gifted (of course there are exceptions)? Can we stop pretending that if "those" kids get something then that means your kid should get the same thing?

Equity does not equal "same"

Can we stop pretending that this is some kind of competition? Jesus you're exhausting

And for what it's worth (which I see is nothing to you), my child is identified as both gifted, and can barely function at school because of disabilities that aren't supported.

But the PP literally stated she wants the same thing ("tiny sheltered classes") as what kids with disabilities get.

Sorry you don't think I see your worth or whatever it is you are trying to imply. I don't know who you are or anything about you except that you are an a-hole.

I know it’s difficult on an anonymous board but realize there are multiple posters here saying slightly different things. I didn’t argue for “tiny sheltered classes” but the point remains that MCPS is taking away gifted opportunities AND it is not serving students with disabilities well either.

You're at least settling back on an accurate statement.

Though, there's still the issue of priorities. Any parent, teacher, or student in MCPS is going to have legitimate complaints. And while it would be great to address all of them, that's realistically not going to happen- particularly in the current budget and political environment.

A broad call for improving programs focused on gifted and talented is not likely to be viewed by many as one of the more pressing issues in MCPS worthy of additional funding and resources. You may have more success arguing concrete proposals, particularly ones that may not have a substantial cost.

And why not? Why is gifted education never prioritized? Because people say- “they’ll be fine”. Nice people. Well meaning people.

It sucks.

The reason PPs bring up special ed is because no one disputes their need for specialized/differentiated instruction. I don’t want to take anything away from special ed. Gifted education is a type of special ed- kids who don’t learn like other kids and who deserve to be cohorted with their peers.

Why can’t parents who have to fight for their kids’ rights for special services join forces with this crop of parents whose kids’ needs are not being met? Let’s put pressure on MCPS to actually differentiate instruction. One size does not fit all!

Yes, when there are limited resources it is common to go after the biggest problems first. You're going to have a hard time convincing most people that gifted and talented programs are one of the biggest problems.

You can disagree with that, but so far you haven't made much of a case that it is. You've argued it that things aren't ideal for your child, but that is very different than arguing this is one of the most compelling problems for the district overall.

Maybe you can improve your argument. But it is probably going to be easier to convince people that there are some simple things that are worth doing.

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Anonymous wrote:Comparing kids in special education to gifted kids is really two sides of the same coin. Put aside the fact that many are twice exceptional, Maryland law REQUIRES schools serve the needs of both and MCPS is failing in both. Can we agree on that fact?

https://www.marylandpublicschools.org/programs/Documents/Gifted-Talented/COMAR_13A0407_GT_Education.pdf

No, I don't think they're failing on both in nearly the same degree. Kids and staff are getting physically harmed because special education programs are not being appropriately resourced. MCPS is failing students with special needs at the most basic level.

There's no comparison here.

You're not reading what the PP actually wrote. It's not about which students are being ignored the most, it's that MCPS is failing at differentiated education, which is required by law. Both are a symptom of a broader problem, and we won't see better outcomes for any of the children involved until there's solidarity to push back on MCPS.

Based on the sheer number of advanced programs across all schools, it's hard to make a strong case that they're failing gifted students. Could they do more? Of course. But they're certainly not failing them anywhere near the same degree as students with special needs

So… we should take away what they are doing for gifted kids to make things more equitable for kids with disabilities? I.e. “kids with disabilities aren’t getting enough so gifted kids should get even less.” Is that your argument? How does taking away gifted ed opportunities fix the special ed problem? Hint, it doesn’t.

No, I'm not arguing that at all. I'm saying your comparisons to special education are ignorant, offensive, and simply false.

You keep hammering on the same thing, but you're ignoring what's being said. BOTH special education and gifted education fall under the umbrella of special education and educational differentiation. You can get mad at the educational philosophy/system that has grouped them together all you want, but what is being said is not with the intent to offend, and it's certainly not ignorance. You seem to be ignorant to how educational systems categorize special education with gifted education. Why do you keep coming at this in such a triggered way? Why does it have to be pitting one group of students against another group of students (never mind as PP noted the many twice exceptional gifted students who have IEPs etc)? Don't you see that so much more could be accomplished in actual REAL pressure on MCPS if you approached it as an all boats rising situation? We should have parent solidarity across ALL needs of differentiation.

I'm not the one that started the comparison between gifted students and special with special needs. For example:

If education for ALL is really what we are aiming for, and if we are okay with tiny, publicly-funded classes for special ed, then we should be okay paying for similar classes for gifted kids.

But we’re not.

Because of the optics- nobody in the US really likes gifted kids! Like, culturally.

And

Comparing kids in special education to gifted kids is really two sides of the same coin. Put aside the fact that many are twice exceptional, Maryland law REQUIRES schools serve the needs of both and MCPS is failing in both. Can we agree on that fact?

Your claim that you want to pursue a "rising tide lifts all boats" strategy might be more credible if you weren't focused on a single policy aimed at advantaged students.

I have come to the conclusion that you're being willfully dense. It's the same policy. It's the same policy. It's the same policy. Full stop. What PP was pointing out was that even though its the same policy, culturally there's a lot more public support for special education than for gifted education. Like for example how you flipped out about even including those two types of education under the same umbrella. We understand and agree with you that MCPS should be doing more for special education. See? That's not hard. Now try the other way around without flipping out and using whatever shaming words you want to drag up.

One has nothing to do with the other. Two very different needs and populations though some gifted kids have SN.

Gifted kids and kids with intellectual disabilities are actually very similar. It’s all about the fact that their brains work differently than “typical” kids. There’s a whole movement to get giftedness itself recognized as a neurodivergence (https://www.prismadvocacy.com/blog/understanding-giftedness-as-neurodivergence). It’s not just that gifted kids are quicker and bored, they need fundamentally different supports just like those with a learning disability. But because these kids aren’t struggling on standardized tests (though struggling in other ways) people like this poster don’t see giftedness for what it is.

You are completely tone death and very insulting.

And you clearly don’t have a gifted kid. I do. And I watch her struggle every day. She has a 504 for anxiety too, but according to her psychiatrist the anxiety directly derives from her giftedness. I am not arguing for services to be taken away from students with disabilities yet you are arguing for services to be taken away from gifted kids. Why?

DP

You truly cannot fathom that while your child is legitimately struggling, other people's children are legitimately struggling much, much more?

And you know this ... how?

Really? You think a gifted child with a 504 for anxiety is struggling the same amount as a child with ID not on the diploma track? Do you get that basically all children with autism have anxiety in addition to social communication deficits?

Seriously, what is this competition that you've built in your head? Why is helping other kids who struggle somehow taking away help from your own? If this is really the paradigm that you're building in your mind, then you should be angry at MCPS, not other parents asking for help.

I am not the one arguing that if kids with disabilities get "tiny sheltered classes" then my kid needs one too. It's not a competition. My goal is to get you folks to stop using other people's children to advocate for your own children. Just advocate for your kids! Leave mine out of it.

But they are the same, my child is gifted and has disabilities. I'm sorry they don't fit into your Venn diagram of worthy special education.

I don't have a venn diagram. Please don't use my child to advocate for your child. It's that simple.

Since when am I talking about your child? I'm talking about my own.

It may not be you, but there's at least one poster here attempting to conflate gifted and talented programs with special education programs. It's not a good look for your cause and it would be in your best interest to encourage him to stop.

Look, I understand that it's not possible to help you understand both fall under the umbrella of differentiation, that both recognize that one-size-fits-all approaches do not serve the child. You clearly don't want allies and you want to die on this hill alone. Enough said, we get it.

We're not alone. We have each other. You do not understand us and will not help us.

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Anonymous wrote:Why do people say it’s offensive to talk about special ed but so easily feel like they can tell the parent of a gift child “they’ll be fine”? It’s so clearly a double standard. Public tax dollars should support both.

I don't say gift kids will be "fine". I do think they need services. I take offense at the implication that kids with disabilities in self contained classrooms some kind of affront to your gifted child or a sign your kid is being treated unfairly.

Well you're getting triggered by things that aren't being said, so good luck with that

Here is what was said:
"We pay for special ed teachers to run tiny sheltered classes for the disabled. Why can’t we pay gifted teachers to run tiny sheltered classes (magnets!) for the highly able students?"

The answer to the question is because the special ed students need smaller classes and most of them do not get them. Calling them "sheltered" is offensive beyond belief.

Do you get there are different levels of need? That a special education student that qualifies for a self contained classroom most likely has higher needs than a child that is gifted (of course there are exceptions)? Can we stop pretending that if "those" kids get something then that means your kid should get the same thing?

Equity does not equal "same"

Can we stop pretending that this is some kind of competition? Jesus you're exhausting

And for what it's worth (which I see is nothing to you), my child is identified as both gifted, and can barely function at school because of disabilities that aren't supported.

But the PP literally stated she wants the same thing ("tiny sheltered classes") as what kids with disabilities get.

Sorry you don't think I see your worth or whatever it is you are trying to imply. I don't know who you are or anything about you except that you are an a-hole.

I know it’s difficult on an anonymous board but realize there are multiple posters here saying slightly different things. I didn’t argue for “tiny sheltered classes” but the point remains that MCPS is taking away gifted opportunities AND it is not serving students with disabilities well either.

You're at least settling back on an accurate statement.

Though, there's still the issue of priorities. Any parent, teacher, or student in MCPS is going to have legitimate complaints. And while it would be great to address all of them, that's realistically not going to happen- particularly in the current budget and political environment.

A broad call for improving programs focused on gifted and talented is not likely to be viewed by many as one of the more pressing issues in MCPS worthy of additional funding and resources. You may have more success arguing concrete proposals, particularly ones that may not have a substantial cost.

And why not? Why is gifted education never prioritized? Because people say- “they’ll be fine”. Nice people. Well meaning people.

It sucks.

The reason PPs bring up special ed is because no one disputes their need for specialized/differentiated instruction. I don’t want to take anything away from special ed. Gifted education is a type of special ed- kids who don’t learn like other kids and who deserve to be cohorted with their peers.

Why can’t parents who have to fight for their kids’ rights for special services join forces with this crop of parents whose kids’ needs are not being met? Let’s put pressure on MCPS to actually differentiate instruction. One size does not fit all!

Yes, when there are limited resources it is common to go after the biggest problems first. You're going to have a hard time convincing most people that gifted and talented programs are one of the biggest problems.

You can disagree with that, but so far you haven't made much of a case that it is. You've argued it that things aren't ideal for your child, but that is very different than arguing this is one of the most compelling problems for the district overall.

Maybe you can improve your argument. But it is probably going to be easier to convince people that there are some simple things that are worth doing.

You clearly have a bias that gifted kids don’t actually need support. Fine. But in telling you that is far from the case and we’re doing a huge disservice to our society to not engage our highest achievers. But I’m not going to convince you.