NYU Prof fired because his class was too hard

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know it’s fun to bash the students. But this is a large class that’s fundamental to many degrees. Lots of tuition dollars involved. Why did the college hire an octogenarian on contract? This should be taught by a tenured professor. The students have a right to complain on that point alone. The guy may no doubt had an illustrious career elsewhere, but at NYU he’s an admin cash grab. Of course, he’s also the kind of guy who knows someone who knows someone at the NYT, but all the more reason to realize the students have a point.

+1 I was just reading through the comments in the NYT and had to laugh at the number of comments about lazy, inattentive, snowflake students who got a "tenured professor" fired. Maybe the lazy and inattentive readers commenting should have paid more attention to the article, including the fact that Dr. Jones was teaching on a yearly contract.

That's your takeaway? You do realize he was tenured at Princeton.

Students today are entitled and lazy. This country need to vastly increase legal immigration because I don't see this generation as being capable of carrying the torch forward.

+1 My husband works with a lot of immigrants and has the utmost respect for their work ethic. Yet my 17 year old sons knows of no other teenager that has any job at all and they all just spend their parents money. My daughter has a friend that works the minimum hours at a Starbucks so she can still qualify for Medicare (medicaid?). I don't know of any teenagers or older that are doing much with their lives right now and I agree I don't know how this country will be able to survive a generation of lazy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know it’s fun to bash the students. But this is a large class that’s fundamental to many degrees. Lots of tuition dollars involved. Why did the college hire an octogenarian on contract? This should be taught by a tenured professor. The students have a right to complain on that point alone. The guy may no doubt had an illustrious career elsewhere, but at NYU he’s an admin cash grab. Of course, he’s also the kind of guy who knows someone who knows someone at the NYT, but all the more reason to realize the students have a point.

+1 I was just reading through the comments in the NYT and had to laugh at the number of comments about lazy, inattentive, snowflake students who got a "tenured professor" fired. Maybe the lazy and inattentive readers commenting should have paid more attention to the article, including the fact that Dr. Jones was teaching on a yearly contract.

That's your takeaway? You do realize he was tenured at Princeton.

Students today are entitled and lazy. This country need to vastly increase legal immigration because I don't see this generation as being capable of carrying the torch forward.

+1 My husband works with a lot of immigrants and has the utmost respect for their work ethic. Yet my 17 year old sons knows of no other teenager that has any job at all and they all just spend their parents money. My daughter has a friend that works the minimum hours at a Starbucks so she can still qualify for Medicare (medicaid?). I don't know of any teenagers or older that are doing much with their lives right now and I agree I don't know how this country will be able to survive a generation of lazy.

Every generation thinks the ones behind them are lazy. It’s a story as old as time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know it’s fun to bash the students. But this is a large class that’s fundamental to many degrees. Lots of tuition dollars involved. Why did the college hire an octogenarian on contract? This should be taught by a tenured professor. The students have a right to complain on that point alone. The guy may no doubt had an illustrious career elsewhere, but at NYU he’s an admin cash grab. Of course, he’s also the kind of guy who knows someone who knows someone at the NYT, but all the more reason to realize the students have a point.

Ageism alive and well I see.

So much for progressives at universities. They are supposed to be tolerant, yet when they can't pass an easy orgo class they demand a professor be fired, and then blame his age. Would you demand another chemistry teacher be fired because he may be Asian?

Hmmmm. The NYT comments are pretty compelling, including from a female student who is now in med school. She wrote about what seemed to be his purposeful obtuseness in his instruction among other factors. I don't think letting all the students know who received the lowest mark is an inspiring approach to pedagogy - and I am probably older than many posting in this thread.

College has transformed from when many of us here attended. "The Paper Chase" is still an interesting movie, but not necessarily a template for the 21st century classroom. The focus on inclusivity, including recognizing the range of learning styles, is not bad. A good friend's dad was a HS football coach for decades, now retired. He observed that as the school district where he coached became less rural and working class and more an UMC bedroom suburb of a large city, the work ethic also changed with his players. To paraphrase what I still find to be a quite memorable observation: "One guy couldn't make practice because his girlfriend broke up with him and he was devastated. That would have never happened ten years ago with players who were only getting to college with a scholarship. But you got to meet these kids where they are and show them the way forward. I can't win any more by yelling and I've learned that being a leader takes a helluva lot more skills than I ever thought."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know it’s fun to bash the students. But this is a large class that’s fundamental to many degrees. Lots of tuition dollars involved. Why did the college hire an octogenarian on contract? This should be taught by a tenured professor. The students have a right to complain on that point alone. The guy may no doubt had an illustrious career elsewhere, but at NYU he’s an admin cash grab. Of course, he’s also the kind of guy who knows someone who knows someone at the NYT, but all the more reason to realize the students have a point.

+1 I was just reading through the comments in the NYT and had to laugh at the number of comments about lazy, inattentive, snowflake students who got a "tenured professor" fired. Maybe the lazy and inattentive readers commenting should have paid more attention to the article, including the fact that Dr. Jones was teaching on a yearly contract.

That's your takeaway? You do realize he was tenured at Princeton.

Students today are entitled and lazy. This country need to vastly increase legal immigration because I don't see this generation as being capable of carrying the torch forward.

+1 My husband works with a lot of immigrants and has the utmost respect for their work ethic. Yet my 17 year old sons knows of no other teenager that has any job at all and they all just spend their parents money. My daughter has a friend that works the minimum hours at a Starbucks so she can still qualify for Medicare (medicaid?). I don't know of any teenagers or older that are doing much with their lives right now and I agree I don't know how this country will be able to survive a generation of lazy.

The fact that you do not know the difference between Medicaid/care for someone your daughter's age renders this meaningless to me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know it’s fun to bash the students. But this is a large class that’s fundamental to many degrees. Lots of tuition dollars involved. Why did the college hire an octogenarian on contract? This should be taught by a tenured professor. The students have a right to complain on that point alone. The guy may no doubt had an illustrious career elsewhere, but at NYU he’s an admin cash grab. Of course, he’s also the kind of guy who knows someone who knows someone at the NYT, but all the more reason to realize the students have a point.

Tenured profs have seniority and prefer to teach higher-level classes with more serious students. Adjuncts get saddled with the huge entry-level classes with lots of whiners.

Truth.

There was a thread about the parents Facebook pages at these schools, and while the one for my DC's school tends to be fairly positive, it just astounds me how entitled and whiny many students are and how their parents believe absolutely everything they say. No an ounce of skepticism when the kid blames everything that goes wrong on the school or the prof. If their kid is making bad grades, it's because the Prof is awful and incompetent. Currently, there's a thread started by a parent complaining about the food in the dining hall and how their kid has to eat out every meal because "everything" that they've eaten at the dining hall has "made their stomach hurt." First of all, if that's true, you need to get your kid to the doctor asap. Second, restaurant food is magic and doesn't make their "stomach hurt?" Of course, dining halls get boring and eating out is more fun. Did it ever occur to you that your kid is simply justifying why they're spending a fortune on dining out? Instead, there's a small cadre of parents who are ready to storm the administration building over the unacceptable quality of the food. (FWIW, my fairly picky son says the food is fine, if not exciting.).

There's no way I'd be a college administrator these days.

My favorite FB parents page post is one we call "bacon gate" Parent irate and complaining the dining hall is out of bacon (on one single day) and what is their snowflake supposed to do?!?!? That parent was put in their place and told to teach their kid to reach out and ask someone as they are a COLLEGE student, oh, and that the dining hall being out of bacon when your kid is there is not really a major crisis.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know it’s fun to bash the students. But this is a large class that’s fundamental to many degrees. Lots of tuition dollars involved. Why did the college hire an octogenarian on contract? This should be taught by a tenured professor. The students have a right to complain on that point alone. The guy may no doubt had an illustrious career elsewhere, but at NYU he’s an admin cash grab. Of course, he’s also the kind of guy who knows someone who knows someone at the NYT, but all the more reason to realize the students have a point.

Tenured profs have seniority and prefer to teach higher-level classes with more serious students. Adjuncts get saddled with the huge entry-level classes with lots of whiners.

Truth.

There was a thread about the parents Facebook pages at these schools, and while the one for my DC's school tends to be fairly positive, it just astounds me how entitled and whiny many students are and how their parents believe absolutely everything they say. No an ounce of skepticism when the kid blames everything that goes wrong on the school or the prof. If their kid is making bad grades, it's because the Prof is awful and incompetent. Currently, there's a thread started by a parent complaining about the food in the dining hall and how their kid has to eat out every meal because "everything" that they've eaten at the dining hall has "made their stomach hurt." First of all, if that's true, you need to get your kid to the doctor asap. Second, restaurant food is magic and doesn't make their "stomach hurt?" Of course, dining halls get boring and eating out is more fun. Did it ever occur to you that your kid is simply justifying why they're spending a fortune on dining out? Instead, there's a small cadre of parents who are ready to storm the administration building over the unacceptable quality of the food. (FWIW, my fairly picky son says the food is fine, if not exciting.).

There's no way I'd be a college administrator these days.

My favorite FB parents page post is one we call "bacon gate" Parent irate and complaining the dining hall is out of bacon (on one single day) and what is their snowflake supposed to do?!?!? That parent was put in their place and told to teach their kid to reach out and ask someone as they are a COLLEGE student, oh, and that the dining hall being out of bacon when your kid is there is not really a major crisis.

And these are the parents who will be bewildered when their kids can't function in the real world, and will blame everyone but themselves.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Organic chemistry is hard? Who knew?

This was especially interesting in light of discussions over Covid learning loss:

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/03/us/nyu-organic-chemistry-petition.html

“Students were misreading exam questions at an astonishing rate,” he wrote in a grievance to the university, protesting his termination. Grades fell even as he reduced the difficulty of his exams.

The problem was exacerbated by the pandemic, he said. “In the last two years, they fell off a cliff,” he wrote. “We now see single digit scores and even zeros.”

After several years of Covid learning loss, the students not only didn’t study, they didn’t seem to know how to study, Dr. Jones said.

I think the bolded portion is the hidden issue here. The brain processes information differently if you read it on a device vs in print, and it processes information on a computer screen differently from information on a phone. These students probably aren't accustomed to reading print.

Maybe if he formed the class information into a tik Tok video more students would watch and learn something. Did anyone think that kids that grew with the attention span of a gnat, having everything made easier for them, never having to work hard or REALLY put any effort in, had excuses made for them at every turn (can't read print? don't know how to study? lol), would be able to succeed in a hard class. They are waiting for someone to make it easier for them and they want to become doctors? Does anyone see the irony or how ridiculous this is?

Did u even read the article.. he did make them into you tube videos, he doesn’t even teach, he has you watch videos, read his book and do practice exams.

That was pretty much what our HSers did during the pandemic. Some did fine, others didn't. But at the college level, I would think most students who were "smart" enough to get into NYU could handle learning from watching the videos, read the book and do practice exams.

So I am just a (out of) state school grad but I don’t understand all these comments about kids expecting to be “spoon fed” and not knowing how to study if the material was not taught in class. What is the point of paying top dollar at NYU if the material is not properly taught in class? If reading the book is good enough or within YouTube for gods sake, let’s all go the cousera and stop paying ridiculous fees.

In the past, it's been both -- I never had a class in college where every bit of the material could be acquired by simply attending class. That's why there are text books. Most classes should be designed to cover the fundamentals and answer questions that students have based upon their reading. Unfortunately, many HS classes now assume that students will not do any work outside of class -- hence the "spoon feeding." These students don't know how to study independently when they get to college.

+1 classes only meet 2.5 hours a week, not everything can be explicitly taught out of 100’s of pages assigned or so

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:His nasty tone notwithstanding, I can't say I disagree with the substance of his farewell letter to students.

"I learned last week that I have been fired from my position in the chemistry department at NYU. I was not given a reason, but I assume that it involves the “petition” of last spring (which I have never been allowed to see or comment on).
I send you this information because I will no longer be able to make any changes to the current data for chemistry 225 (2021) and 226 (2022). ALL – repeat ALL - future administrative matters including, but not limited to, grade changes, regrades, resolution of INC grades, and letters of recommendation must be dealt with by the deans and/or the departmental leadership, Professors Tuckerman and Walters.
I send congratulations to those of you who did well, and an apology to those of you who cruised through this course with a relentless stream of 100’s. The apology comes because I didn’t stretch you, and thus deprived you of the chance to improve beyond an already formidable baseline. Keep it up!
This incident is far more important than it looks. Consider the effect on an untenured or clinical professor. If his or her career is at the mercy of disgruntled students and accommodating deans, how are they to teach real material and give real grades? Much the same can be said for departmental administrators who meet with students daily. Can they afford to be tough when necessary?
The chemistry department’s ability to meet its teaching responsibilities has been diminished. Indeed, the university’s reputation has already suffered.
Now a piece of unsolicited advice: It is very difficult to be self critical. It is hard to accept personal responsibility when we meet failure, as each of us will at some point, but it is an essential life skill you would be wise to develop.
Good luck to all of you.
mj"

Is this for real? Where did you get this letter?

Yes, it's real. A colleague passed it along.

This is pretty much why my father retired 15 years earlier than I thought he would. He loved teaching and I thought he might never retire. But over the decades of his career, students became consumers who thought they bought the right to succeed when they paid their tuition. Respect for expertise and knowledge has diminished and now there’s a frequent “you work for me” attitude instead.

Lol you read that and don’t see what a pompous a$$ he is.

How about he take his own advice.., It is hard to accept personal responsibility when we meet failure, as each of us will at some point, but it is an essential life skill you would be wise to develop.

He never did develop that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Organic chem is supposed to be hard. It’s always been hard.

Anyone seen the movie idiocracy??

How "hard" is it in Third World countries? These American colleges PURPOSELY and quickly fail, sorry "weed out," over half of the pre-meds who are fully capable of becoming doctors. It's a big scam.

If they can’t pass organic they cannot get through med school and it’s better to know early then to fail out after starting to rack up med school loans.

Pure bullsh*t. They could all pass and likely ace organic chemistry at a degree mill with fewer pre-meds.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:His nasty tone notwithstanding, I can't say I disagree with the substance of his farewell letter to students.

"I learned last week that I have been fired from my position in the chemistry department at NYU. I was not given a reason, but I assume that it involves the “petition” of last spring (which I have never been allowed to see or comment on).
I send you this information because I will no longer be able to make any changes to the current data for chemistry 225 (2021) and 226 (2022). ALL – repeat ALL - future administrative matters including, but not limited to, grade changes, regrades, resolution of INC grades, and letters of recommendation must be dealt with by the deans and/or the departmental leadership, Professors Tuckerman and Walters.
I send congratulations to those of you who did well, and an apology to those of you who cruised through this course with a relentless stream of 100’s. The apology comes because I didn’t stretch you, and thus deprived you of the chance to improve beyond an already formidable baseline. Keep it up!
This incident is far more important than it looks. Consider the effect on an untenured or clinical professor. If his or her career is at the mercy of disgruntled students and accommodating deans, how are they to teach real material and give real grades? Much the same can be said for departmental administrators who meet with students daily. Can they afford to be tough when necessary?
The chemistry department’s ability to meet its teaching responsibilities has been diminished. Indeed, the university’s reputation has already suffered.
Now a piece of unsolicited advice: It is very difficult to be self critical. It is hard to accept personal responsibility when we meet failure, as each of us will at some point, but it is an essential life skill you would be wise to develop.
Good luck to all of you.
mj"

He should take his own advice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Organic chem is supposed to be hard. It’s always been hard.

Anyone seen the movie idiocracy??

How "hard" is it in Third World countries? These American colleges PURPOSELY and quickly fail, sorry "weed out," over half of the pre-meds who are fully capable of becoming doctors. It's a big scam.

If they can’t pass organic they cannot get through med school and it’s better to know early then to fail out after starting to rack up med school loans.

Pure bullsh*t. They could all pass and likely ace organic chemistry at a degree mill with fewer pre-meds.

Or with the other teacher at NYU. He’s just a bad teacher.

I’d wouldn’t be surprised if he has full scale dementia in 2 years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know it’s fun to bash the students. But this is a large class that’s fundamental to many degrees. Lots of tuition dollars involved. Why did the college hire an octogenarian on contract? This should be taught by a tenured professor. The students have a right to complain on that point alone. The guy may no doubt had an illustrious career elsewhere, but at NYU he’s an admin cash grab. Of course, he’s also the kind of guy who knows someone who knows someone at the NYT, but all the more reason to realize the students have a point.

+1 I was just reading through the comments in the NYT and had to laugh at the number of comments about lazy, inattentive, snowflake students who got a "tenured professor" fired. Maybe the lazy and inattentive readers commenting should have paid more attention to the article, including the fact that Dr. Jones was teaching on a yearly contract.

That's your takeaway? You do realize he was tenured at Princeton.

Students today are entitled and lazy. This country need to vastly increase legal immigration because I don't see this generation as being capable of carrying the torch forward.

DP. And for some reason he gave up his tenured position at Princeton and decided to take a year-to-year contract with NYU.

He wanted to spend his retirement in NYC and thought he'd pick up an adjunct class because he loves the material (certainly not for the $). Not difficult to understand.

Do you have personal knowledge of this, or are you speculating?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Organic chemistry is hard? Who knew?

This was especially interesting in light of discussions over Covid learning loss:

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/03/us/nyu-organic-chemistry-petition.html

“Students were misreading exam questions at an astonishing rate,” he wrote in a grievance to the university, protesting his termination. Grades fell even as he reduced the difficulty of his exams.

The problem was exacerbated by the pandemic, he said. “In the last two years, they fell off a cliff,” he wrote. “We now see single digit scores and even zeros.”

After several years of Covid learning loss, the students not only didn’t study, they didn’t seem to know how to study, Dr. Jones said.

I think the bolded portion is the hidden issue here. The brain processes information differently if you read it on a device vs in print, and it processes information on a computer screen differently from information on a phone. These students probably aren't accustomed to reading print.

Maybe if he formed the class information into a tik Tok video more students would watch and learn something. Did anyone think that kids that grew with the attention span of a gnat, having everything made easier for them, never having to work hard or REALLY put any effort in, had excuses made for them at every turn (can't read print? don't know how to study? lol), would be able to succeed in a hard class. They are waiting for someone to make it easier for them and they want to become doctors? Does anyone see the irony or how ridiculous this is?

Did u even read the article.. he did make them into you tube videos, he doesn’t even teach, he has you watch videos, read his book and do practice exams.

That was pretty much what our HSers did during the pandemic. Some did fine, others didn't. But at the college level, I would think most students who were "smart" enough to get into NYU could handle learning from watching the videos, read the book and do practice exams.

So I am just a (out of) state school grad but I don’t understand all these comments about kids expecting to be “spoon fed” and not knowing how to study if the material was not taught in class. What is the point of paying top dollar at NYU if the material is not properly taught in class? If reading the book is good enough or within YouTube for gods sake, let’s all go the cousera and stop paying ridiculous fees.

In the past, it's been both -- I never had a class in college where every bit of the material could be acquired by simply attending class. That's why there are text books. Most classes should be designed to cover the fundamentals and answer questions that students have based upon their reading. Unfortunately, many HS classes now assume that students will not do any work outside of class -- hence the "spoon feeding." These students don't know how to study independently when they get to college.

+1 classes only meet 2.5 hours a week, not everything can be explicitly taught out of 100’s of pages assigned or so

I’m not saying everything should be explicitly taught. But yes, the important parts of any subjects- the parts worthy of being tested- should be thoroughly taught in class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know it’s fun to bash the students. But this is a large class that’s fundamental to many degrees. Lots of tuition dollars involved. Why did the college hire an octogenarian on contract? This should be taught by a tenured professor. The students have a right to complain on that point alone. The guy may no doubt had an illustrious career elsewhere, but at NYU he’s an admin cash grab. Of course, he’s also the kind of guy who knows someone who knows someone at the NYT, but all the more reason to realize the students have a point.

Ageism alive and well I see.

So much for progressives at universities. They are supposed to be tolerant, yet when they can't pass an easy orgo class they demand a professor be fired, and then blame his age. Would you demand another chemistry teacher be fired because he may be Asian?

Hmmmm. The NYT comments are pretty compelling, including from a female student who is now in med school. She wrote about what seemed to be his purposeful obtuseness in his instruction among other factors. I don't think letting all the students know who received the lowest mark is an inspiring approach to pedagogy - and I am probably older than many posting in this thread.

College has transformed from when many of us here attended. "The Paper Chase" is still an interesting movie, but not necessarily a template for the 21st century classroom. The focus on inclusivity, including recognizing the range of learning styles, is not bad. A good friend's dad was a HS football coach for decades, now retired. He observed that as the school district where he coached became less rural and working class and more an UMC bedroom suburb of a large city, the work ethic also changed with his players. To paraphrase what I still find to be a quite memorable observation: "One guy couldn't make practice because his girlfriend broke up with him and he was devastated. That would have never happened ten years ago with players who were only getting to college with a scholarship. But you got to meet these kids where they are and show them the way forward. I can't win any more by yelling and I've learned that being a leader takes a helluva lot more skills than I ever thought."

The NYT comments you are referencing are trash. Organic chemistry does not solely exist for med students to take. Just because someone did poorly in the professor's class while scoring high on the mcat chemistry section is meaningless. Newsflash: chemistry on the MCAT is watered down easy garbage. Organic chemistry is also taken by chemistry majors who may turn it into a career.

It's just a whine fest from entitled, lazy pre-meds who've been given inflated grades their entire lives, who've never had any setbacks in life, and who are, in reality, nothing more than of average intelligence.

[Anonymous]

He was used to Princeton students and failed to adjust down for a lower-achieving cohort. Pretty straightforward.