Why are teachers and nurses underpaid?

[Anonymous]

Go into a hospital or nursing home and look at the nurses working there. I'd guess it's at least 50% first generation immigrants from Africa, the Philippines, and Latin America. Native-born Americans don't seem to want to be nurses, by and large. I don't think this is a pay thing. Travelling nurses are making the equivalent of $300K / year right now! There just isn't enough supply.

I also have trouble with the teachers argument. Teachers in Montgomery County make $70+ (avg. is $78K per MCPS website), plus great healthcare, summers off, and defined benefit pensions upon 30 years service. That sounds pretty great to me.

[Anonymous]

^^ then sign up to teach! Tons of openings!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So, why do cops and firefighters get OT and teachers don’t.
Because… women

Because FLSA Exempt vs Non-exempt. Of course, you're not mentioning that firefighters have to work 53 hours before getting overtime and cops have to work at least 43 hours before getting overtime.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Are teachers really underpaid?

I know a teacher who teaches special Ed 4th graders. She is pulling in $133k per year with 18 years in. Insane benefits and a pension. The ones who bellyache the most about being underpaid in teaching are the ones who don't have a lot of years in and who work at crappy school districts.

Go read up on the epic debacle of the entire state of Illinois. There are teachers there collecting like $100-200k per year in pension who make more in pension than they made in contributions to the system. They didn't even serve as senior level teaching admin positions. It's completely absurd.

Where does this teacher work? Is it somewhere with a high COL? NYC?

My DW and I both teach in Fairfax County elementary schools. This is my 30th year. I have my MA +30 and make $110k. DW makes exactly the same. We think it is fair compensation. Our benefits are not “insane” (I’d like to know the example of “insane”) but our pension is good (mine is a bit better than hers since she was hired by the county after changes were made). Retiree healthcare premiums are at least double what an active teacher pays.

I’d estimate I regularly put in about 50-55 hours per week (working, on task, not down time) but I’ve never put in hours over the summer that weren’t paid. Earlier in my year (up through my 10th year or so), I worked summer school. Since then I really don’t do anything for work between our last contract day in June and our first day in August. Other than paid summer school teaching earlier in our career we’ve never found it necessary to put in hours over the summer.

I am 25 years in, work at a relatively high level in a huge NGO, have an MBA, and make 140. I have 4 weeks of vacation a year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wouldn't lump the two (teachers and nurses) in together. Teachers are paid quite well in places like FCPS and the bigger school districts for 9 months of work.

Close relative teaches French in Arizona and hets paid 68,000 a year. Not bad considering her husband makes about that too teaching a different subject.

More like 10 months, but who’s counting?

Plus 10 days for spring break, two weeks for Christmas and every holiday known to man. It’s definitely closer to 9 months.

I was just telling a friend that many teachers still operat like students, given levels of entitlement. I work 11 monhts of year PLUS some holidays (long weekends) but would never not realize "2 weeks at christmas" or a week at easter dont count

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So, why do cops and firefighters get OT and teachers don’t.
Because… women

OMG, you are feeding into the teachers are dumb as rocks trope. Sweet Jesus.
Teachers are salaried.
And guess who else gets OT? Nurses! And they are………hourly! Just like police and firefighters.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So, why do cops and firefighters get OT and teachers don’t.
Because… women

OMG, you are feeding into the teachers are dumb as rocks trope. Sweet Jesus.
Teachers are salaried.
And guess who else gets OT? Nurses! And they are………hourly! Just like police and firefighters.

And women.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So, why do cops and firefighters get OT and teachers don’t.
Because… women

OMG, you are feeding into the teachers are dumb as rocks trope. Sweet Jesus.
Teachers are salaried.
And guess who else gets OT? Nurses! And they are………hourly! Just like police and firefighters.

My husband is a police officer. He’s salaried, not hourly. That’s true for most departments in this region. He gets overtime.

The “women” argument is more solid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wouldn't lump in teachers and nurses. Having the summer off and all those days/weeks off during the school year, and a daily schedule that matches your kids' schoolday is incredible.

Yes yes many will say they are working nonstop during all this time but the teachers I know IRL don't feel that way, especially once you have been doing it a few yrs. And many make supplemental income in the summer if needed with tutoring, ed camps etc.

I’ll remember that next weekend when I spend all Sunday grading IB papers. I’ll also remember that when I sit in my car during my own kids’ meets so I can get my lesson plans in on time.

I’ve been teaching many years. 55-60 hour weeks are the norm for many high school teachers. It’s getting worse, too. If this job were so wonderful, like your post suggests it is, why exactly are we facing a growing teacher shortage?

This is the sort of reasoning that gets me about teachers.
1) Don't you think many of us spend all Sunday working not unoccassionally? Inc & esp nonprofit workers?
2) Don't you think that many of us have to sit in our car during meets to grade?
3) don' you think many of us work 55+ a week?
I find it amazing that teachers think they are entitled to not work b/c their kids have a game.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Third teacher here. I was a National Merit Finalist. I also got into top law schools (I had a 172 on the LSAT), but I chose education over law because I thought the work would be more meaningful. It is, by and large, but I’ll admit that there are many days when I wish people didn’t make assumptions about my intelligence (or lack thereof) based on my profession. I think over time the field will draw fewer and fewer top students, and that’s a shame. We should be making education appealing to our top achievers, not making our top achievers second-guess themselves. This will be my last year in a school. I am exhausted and need a change.

So go to law school.

What do you think happens when we keep telling teachers to take their better opportunities? Who will be left to teach?

I’ve lost many coworkers in the last 5 years, all to better opportunities with more pay. We have openings in my department because there’s no one applying. We’re covering those classes on our planning periods, which is only going to lead to more burnout and more teachers quitting.

]
It's a trade off. Teaching is an entry level position. Many folks do it for a few years and then move on. Entry level positions are going to have lower salaries.

You don't think there is value to keeping experienced teachers around?

Of course there's some value, so there should be career development and pay increases. But, a classroom teacher is going to find their salary capped at some level. It's the same for beat cops and firefighters.

My cop brother made $150k last year thanks to generous overtime. I think his base was something like $110k. He's 43.

I’m a teacher married to a police officer. We started the same year (15 years ago). He makes almost twice what I do even though our starting pay was similar. Part of it is he gets paid for overtime whereas I do not. Even if I compare his base pay to mine, however, he still makes 30% more.

Again, do yu think most professional jobs get overtime?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wouldn't lump in teachers and nurses. Having the summer off and all those days/weeks off during the school year, and a daily schedule that matches your kids' schoolday is incredible.

Yes yes many will say they are working nonstop during all this time but the teachers I know IRL don't feel that way, especially once you have been doing it a few yrs. And many make supplemental income in the summer if needed with tutoring, ed camps etc.

I’ll remember that next weekend when I spend all Sunday grading IB papers. I’ll also remember that when I sit in my car during my own kids’ meets so I can get my lesson plans in on time.

I’ve been teaching many years. 55-60 hour weeks are the norm for many high school teachers. It’s getting worse, too. If this job were so wonderful, like your post suggests it is, why exactly are we facing a growing teacher shortage?

This is the sort of reasoning that gets me about teachers.
1) Don't you think many of us spend all Sunday working not unoccassionally? Inc & esp nonprofit workers?
2) Don't you think that many of us have to sit in our car during meets to grade?

Let me guess: You put in the same amount of hours as teachers, but you get better compensation, both in pay and respect.
3) don' you think many of us work 55+ a week?
I find it amazing that teachers think they are entitled to not work b/c their kids have a game.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wouldn't lump in teachers and nurses. Having the summer off and all those days/weeks off during the school year, and a daily schedule that matches your kids' schoolday is incredible.

Yes yes many will say they are working nonstop during all this time but the teachers I know IRL don't feel that way, especially once you have been doing it a few yrs. And many make supplemental income in the summer if needed with tutoring, ed camps etc.

I’ll remember that next weekend when I spend all Sunday grading IB papers. I’ll also remember that when I sit in my car during my own kids’ meets so I can get my lesson plans in on time.

I’ve been teaching many years. 55-60 hour weeks are the norm for many high school teachers. It’s getting worse, too. If this job were so wonderful, like your post suggests it is, why exactly are we facing a growing teacher shortage?

This is the sort of reasoning that gets me about teachers.
1) Don't you think many of us spend all Sunday working not unoccassionally? Inc & esp nonprofit workers?
2) Don't you think that many of us have to sit in our car during meets to grade?
3) don' you think many of us work 55+ a week?
I find it amazing that teachers think they are entitled to not work b/c their kids have a game.

Let me guess: You put in the same amount of hours as teachers, but you get better compensation, both in pay and respect.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wouldn't lump in teachers and nurses. Having the summer off and all those days/weeks off during the school year, and a daily schedule that matches your kids' schoolday is incredible.

Yes yes many will say they are working nonstop during all this time but the teachers I know IRL don't feel that way, especially once you have been doing it a few yrs. And many make supplemental income in the summer if needed with tutoring, ed camps etc.

I’ll remember that next weekend when I spend all Sunday grading IB papers. I’ll also remember that when I sit in my car during my own kids’ meets so I can get my lesson plans in on time.

I’ve been teaching many years. 55-60 hour weeks are the norm for many high school teachers. It’s getting worse, too. If this job were so wonderful, like your post suggests it is, why exactly are we facing a growing teacher shortage?

This is the sort of reasoning that gets me about teachers.
1) Don't you think many of us spend all Sunday working not unoccassionally? Inc & esp nonprofit workers?
2) Don't you think that many of us have to sit in our car during meets to grade?
3) don' you think many of us work 55+ a week?
I find it amazing that teachers think they are entitled to not work b/c their kids have a game.

Do some professionals work over 40? Of course. Do most? No, I’m not buying it. Look no further than DCUM for threads about working only 15-20 hours a week at full-time jobs.

And where did I say that I am entitled to not work because my kid has a game? Guess what? I work at EVERY game and EVERY practice. I’d like the ability to watch one of these days without having a stack of papers on my lap. Is that acting entitled?

Seriously, the disrespect throughout this thread is a perfect illustration of why teachers are quitting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t think they are underpaid. Yes I think they work hard and deserve our respect but what the earn is ovoid considering the amount of days off they get over the course of a year ( teachers) compared to other jobs. I am not s nurse but do shift work similar to a nurse schedule, they’re not working every day either and depending on where they work and seniority can get cushy schedules too.

Well, at 60 hours a week during the school year and 25-30 hours a week during my unpaid summer, I definitely feel underpaid. If your reasoning for keeping teachers’ pay low is some perceived idea of days off, then consider yourself corrected. Today was a day off. I worked 8 hours prepping for next week. I’ll finish planning tomorrow, on Labor Day.

Don’t confuse “days off” with “days not working.” The only difference to me is that I can pee when I want to on weekends and during the summer.

Stop it. You aren't working that much.

Guess what? Some teachers ABSOLUTELY work this much. Let’s take a look at teachers who have to grade essays. If you figure 10 minutes an essay for 140 students, that’s over 23 hours of grading for that assignment alone. The teaching doesn’t stop and the tons of other duties don’t stop, so that happens on your own time. Or… consider the teacher at an understaffed school who has to spend every free moment covering a class. ALL planning and grading has to happen at home. And summers? That’s time for curriculum revisions, additional coursework, etc.

We can ignore reality all we want, but teachers are leaving because this is what they are experiencing.

The problem with many teachers is that they have no idea of how most white collar professions work --- they think others don't struggle with hours, working outside of hours, burnout politics, I don't get days off when my kid is sick and don't think I should, staffing shortages, increasing demands (although the last is pretty bad in teaching, I will give you that). It's shocking to me how unequipped teachers are to work in other professions and don't know basic office norms. There is bound to be someone who comes on and says "I worked in investment banking and now teach it's so much harder." Fine. But for a nonprofit , mission - oriented job, the conditions aren't really all that different elsewhere. Outside bathroom breaks.
There are also very few barriers to entry in some teaching jobs. Not so in other jobs.
I thought about teaching. I felt like i wasn't for me, b/c it would be the same job for years --you couldn't advance. I don't know how true that really is, and knew even less in my 20s. It didn't have to do with $ in my case but it just seemed like i twasn't a job for an ambitious person. That should change.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wouldn't lump in teachers and nurses. Having the summer off and all those days/weeks off during the school year, and a daily schedule that matches your kids' schoolday is incredible.

Yes yes many will say they are working nonstop during all this time but the teachers I know IRL don't feel that way, especially once you have been doing it a few yrs. And many make supplemental income in the summer if needed with tutoring, ed camps etc.

I’ll remember that next weekend when I spend all Sunday grading IB papers. I’ll also remember that when I sit in my car during my own kids’ meets so I can get my lesson plans in on time.

I’ve been teaching many years. 55-60 hour weeks are the norm for many high school teachers. It’s getting worse, too. If this job were so wonderful, like your post suggests it is, why exactly are we facing a growing teacher shortage?

This is the sort of reasoning that gets me about teachers.
1) Don't you think many of us spend all Sunday working not unoccassionally? Inc & esp nonprofit workers?
2) Don't you think that many of us have to sit in our car during meets to grade?
3) don' you think many of us work 55+ a week?
I find it amazing that teachers think they are entitled to not work b/c their kids have a game.

Do some professionals work over 40? Of course. Do most? No, I’m not buying it. Look no further than DCUM for threads about working only 15-20 hours a week at full-time jobs.

And where did I say that I am entitled to not work because my kid has a game? Guess what? I work at EVERY game and EVERY practice. I’d like the ability to watch one of these days without having a stack of papers on my lap. Is that acting entitled?

Seriously, the disrespect throughout this thread is a perfect illustration of why teachers are quitting.

My sense from your post was that you think it's outrageous that you have to work during every game.