What is a "donut hole family"?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We could also go about this the other way and build up the many wonderful public colleges and universities. So the top 25 aren’t always expensive private colleges and universities.

This is already true with many of the UCs, Michigan, UVA, UNC Chapel Hill … but it would be nice to add more to the list of the “best universities.” Then again, maybe the rankings are part of the problem.

Those schools cost almost as much OOS as the elite privates. It's not a big deal if you live in a state with great public options, but it is if your state doesn't have a good public option

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think part of the problem with comparing a college education to buying a luxury car is that these more elite educations to open doors. They absolutely do, for many careers.

Those doors are for the rich combined with enough URM and poor kids so that the enrollment numbers don't look hilarious

Sorry but sub $150k or even sub $100k families are not “poor.” That’s ridiculous. These schools are admitting plenty of middle class kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:“Pew defines “middle class” as a person earning between two-thirds and twice the median American household income, which in 2019 was $68,703, according to the United States Census Bureau.”

That puts middle class between $137,406 and $45,343.

Most people posting here are NOT middle class. Get out of your clueless and entitled bubble.

+1. It’s ridiculous. And yeah I know you all feel middle class in MoCo and Fairfax. But no one is making you live there. You want aid so bad move to Ohio and take a pay cut.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think part of the problem with comparing a college education to buying a luxury car is that these more elite educations to open doors. They absolutely do, for many careers.

Those doors are for the rich combined with enough URM and poor kids so that the enrollment numbers don't look hilarious

Sorry but sub $150k or even sub $100k families are not “poor.” That’s ridiculous. These schools are admitting plenty of middle class kids.

What makes you think sub 150k and sub 100k kids are going to most of the top 25? Harvard being free for that cohort is the exception not the rule

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:People who do not qualify for financial aid, but whose real economic situation means they can't afford expensive colleges even if their kids are admitted. They are the families whose kids turn down Carnegie Mellon and take the merit award at Pitt.

But can’t they/don’t they take out loans to pay the tuition?

A family earning around 250k is not going to take out loans to cover the 50k a year difference in cost between publics and privates for multiple kids unless they are utterly terrible with money

If they made $199k do they get aid?

I think the magic number is 120K for a lot of aid, $150 gets some

So if they drop their income down to 150 k they get aid. So give up 100K in income to get aid or keep the high income and pay the tuition bill. What is the difference?

Any proof that 120k HHI get aid? I do not know any one who received FINANCIAL aid in that bracket. Merit aid is completely different.

https://admission.princeton.edu/who-qualifies-aid

You are welcome!

So Harvard and Princeton.

GMFB

So, if an amazing middle class kid gets into one of those (other top schools are comparable), then yes, you can afford it. Otherwise, no, your average kid is not entitled to Club Med experience on other people's dime. In-state public will do the job.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:“Pew defines “middle class” as a person earning between two-thirds and twice the median American household income, which in 2019 was $68,703, according to the United States Census Bureau.”

That puts middle class between $137,406 and $45,343.

Most people posting here are NOT middle class. Get out of your clueless and entitled bubble.

Thanks for this. I’m middle class. When I said we could not comfortably pay for college, someone brought up house managers with me and bolded the word “comfortably” and took me to task.

I’m in a donut hole. There really are people in the DC area who do not earn a bazillion dollars. 🍩

I also do elder care which means my earnings took a huge hit.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Could someone please explain, because it sounds like people with nice resources feeling entitled to more than they can afford.

No. It is a family that won’t qualify for FA but that doesn’t have the resources to reasonably handle tuition at the priciest/most elite colleges. I don’t know about families feeling entitled, but from the colleges’ standpoint it is a real problem that they are concerned about. They don’t want their student populations to come from two stratified socioeconomic groups.

This most closely describes the issue in an unbiased way. While I don’t expect massive FA, we also can’t comfortably pay for expensive private college. The colleges take into account all assets, which is great. No one should get to hide their wealth in a boat purchase. At the same time, we can’t liquidate our retirement savings. We would have to pay penalties. The government has penalties to discourage using your retirement money for non-retirement. So, we find ourselves in a spot where savings that we can’t use without expensive penalties is used to indicate we have “too much” money.

Meanwhile, our cash flow is not high, so it’s hard to swing the full cost.

Before people call me a whiner or tell me how lucky I am, I know I am lucky. I’m not complaining. We could empty our retirement accounts, but it would then lead us into poverty and that doesn’t help society or ourselves.

I don't know anyone who thinks paying for "expensive private college" is comfortable. This is the problem with donut hole discussions - of course it's expensive! It's expensive for everyone! If you think you're hard done by because you can't just instruct your household manager to write a check and forget about it moments later, you have skewed expectations in life. "Not outrageously wealthy" is not a protected class.

I'm 60 years old and graduated from a NESCAC school in 1983. The year I started, it cost about $8K for tuition, room, and board. I paid about $2000-$2500 of that from summer and part-time job (during the school year) earnings and my parents paid the rest. They did the same for my three siblings. It was not "comfortable" meaning "cushy," but it was completely doable. Some of my friends at similar schools and at Ivy League schools needed loans, and they took them out (usually around $6K-$8K total) and paid them off fairly quickly. My friends at public universities were able to work their way through college earning minimum wage.

Fast-forward, that private school now costs $80K all-in. Very few families with four children could pay for it "comfortably" no matter how hard the kids worked during summers.

That is what people are angry about.

Once upon a time, private college was not expensive. Everyone knows that. I'm not arguing that college costs are reasonable now, I'm saying that the posters complaining about being in a "donut hole" because they cannot comfortably pay for the most expensive option are not adding anything to the discussion. The nature of an option being the most expensive is that . . . it's expensive and everyone can't afford it! And unless you're very rich, it's going to sting to write that check. If you can still afford it, just "uncomfortably"; if you can still handle tuition, just not "reasonably" - that's not sympathetic, and it's not a donut hole. And there are literally thousands of other options at lower price points. But they've convinced themselves they're uniquely challenged because the best of the best isn't a given for their kid.

If you want to talk about spiraling tuition costs, let's talk about the tax breaks that were funded by gutting state budgets for higher ed. It's not a donut hole discussion it's a political discussion. But the same people moaning that they're stuck in a donut hole are voting for the "drown it in a bathtub" people, and can't tell they did it to themselves.

You are entitled, I see, and not adding much to the conversation.

Middle class families can’t afford these so-called elite schools. How elite are they if it’s just a pay to play?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Could someone please explain, because it sounds like people with nice resources feeling entitled to more than they can afford.

No. It is a family that won’t qualify for FA but that doesn’t have the resources to reasonably handle tuition at the priciest/most elite colleges. I don’t know about families feeling entitled, but from the colleges’ standpoint it is a real problem that they are concerned about. They don’t want their student populations to come from two stratified socioeconomic groups.

This most closely describes the issue in an unbiased way. While I don’t expect massive FA, we also can’t comfortably pay for expensive private college. The colleges take into account all assets, which is great. No one should get to hide their wealth in a boat purchase. At the same time, we can’t liquidate our retirement savings. We would have to pay penalties. The government has penalties to discourage using your retirement money for non-retirement. So, we find ourselves in a spot where savings that we can’t use without expensive penalties is used to indicate we have “too much” money.

Meanwhile, our cash flow is not high, so it’s hard to swing the full cost.

Before people call me a whiner or tell me how lucky I am, I know I am lucky. I’m not complaining. We could empty our retirement accounts, but it would then lead us into poverty and that doesn’t help society or ourselves.

I don't know anyone who thinks paying for "expensive private college" is comfortable. This is the problem with donut hole discussions - of course it's expensive! It's expensive for everyone! If you think you're hard done by because you can't just instruct your household manager to write a check and forget about it moments later, you have skewed expectations in life. "Not outrageously wealthy" is not a protected class.

I'm 60 years old and graduated from a NESCAC school in 1983. The year I started, it cost about $8K for tuition, room, and board. I paid about $2000-$2500 of that from summer and part-time job (during the school year) earnings and my parents paid the rest. They did the same for my three siblings. It was not "comfortable" meaning "cushy," but it was completely doable. Some of my friends at similar schools and at Ivy League schools needed loans, and they took them out (usually around $6K-$8K total) and paid them off fairly quickly. My friends at public universities were able to work their way through college earning minimum wage.

Fast-forward, that private school now costs $80K all-in. Very few families with four children could pay for it "comfortably" no matter how hard the kids worked during summers.

That is what people are angry about.

Once upon a time, private college was not expensive. Everyone knows that. I'm not arguing that college costs are reasonable now, I'm saying that the posters complaining about being in a "donut hole" because they cannot comfortably pay for the most expensive option are not adding anything to the discussion. The nature of an option being the most expensive is that . . . it's expensive and everyone can't afford it! And unless you're very rich, it's going to sting to write that check. If you can still afford it, just "uncomfortably"; if you can still handle tuition, just not "reasonably" - that's not sympathetic, and it's not a donut hole. And there are literally thousands of other options at lower price points. But they've convinced themselves they're uniquely challenged because the best of the best isn't a given for their kid.

If you want to talk about spiraling tuition costs, let's talk about the tax breaks that were funded by gutting state budgets for higher ed. It's not a donut hole discussion it's a political discussion. But the same people moaning that they're stuck in a donut hole are voting for the "drown it in a bathtub" people, and can't tell they did it to themselves.

You are entitled, I see, and not adding much to the conversation.

Middle class families can’t afford these so-called elite schools. How elite are they if it’s just a pay to play?

It’s not “just pay to play.” That was the point of the varsity blues scandal. The most elite schools are for rich kids who also have top stats.

[Anonymous]

If you cannot afford a private, you send your kids to the stat schools, simple. We have told our kids that is what we can afford and have saved since birth. We rarely take a vacation, live in a house DCUM would be embarrassed by in order to fully pay for college and graduate school. Its about priorities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Could someone please explain, because it sounds like people with nice resources feeling entitled to more than they can afford.

No. It is a family that won’t qualify for FA but that doesn’t have the resources to reasonably handle tuition at the priciest/most elite colleges. I don’t know about families feeling entitled, but from the colleges’ standpoint it is a real problem that they are concerned about. They don’t want their student populations to come from two stratified socioeconomic groups.

This most closely describes the issue in an unbiased way. While I don’t expect massive FA, we also can’t comfortably pay for expensive private college. The colleges take into account all assets, which is great. No one should get to hide their wealth in a boat purchase. At the same time, we can’t liquidate our retirement savings. We would have to pay penalties. The government has penalties to discourage using your retirement money for non-retirement. So, we find ourselves in a spot where savings that we can’t use without expensive penalties is used to indicate we have “too much” money.

Meanwhile, our cash flow is not high, so it’s hard to swing the full cost.

Before people call me a whiner or tell me how lucky I am, I know I am lucky. I’m not complaining. We could empty our retirement accounts, but it would then lead us into poverty and that doesn’t help society or ourselves.

I don't know anyone who thinks paying for "expensive private college" is comfortable. This is the problem with donut hole discussions - of course it's expensive! It's expensive for everyone! If you think you're hard done by because you can't just instruct your household manager to write a check and forget about it moments later, you have skewed expectations in life. "Not outrageously wealthy" is not a protected class.

I'm 60 years old and graduated from a NESCAC school in 1983. The year I started, it cost about $8K for tuition, room, and board. I paid about $2000-$2500 of that from summer and part-time job (during the school year) earnings and my parents paid the rest. They did the same for my three siblings. It was not "comfortable" meaning "cushy," but it was completely doable. Some of my friends at similar schools and at Ivy League schools needed loans, and they took them out (usually around $6K-$8K total) and paid them off fairly quickly. My friends at public universities were able to work their way through college earning minimum wage.

Fast-forward, that private school now costs $80K all-in. Very few families with four children could pay for it "comfortably" no matter how hard the kids worked during summers.

That is what people are angry about.

Once upon a time, private college was not expensive. Everyone knows that. I'm not arguing that college costs are reasonable now, I'm saying that the posters complaining about being in a "donut hole" because they cannot comfortably pay for the most expensive option are not adding anything to the discussion. The nature of an option being the most expensive is that . . . it's expensive and everyone can't afford it! And unless you're very rich, it's going to sting to write that check. If you can still afford it, just "uncomfortably"; if you can still handle tuition, just not "reasonably" - that's not sympathetic, and it's not a donut hole. And there are literally thousands of other options at lower price points. But they've convinced themselves they're uniquely challenged because the best of the best isn't a given for their kid.

If you want to talk about spiraling tuition costs, let's talk about the tax breaks that were funded by gutting state budgets for higher ed. It's not a donut hole discussion it's a political discussion. But the same people moaning that they're stuck in a donut hole are voting for the "drown it in a bathtub" people, and can't tell they did it to themselves.

You are entitled, I see, and not adding much to the conversation.

Middle class families can’t afford these so-called elite schools. How elite are they if it’s just a pay to play?

It’s not “just pay to play.” That was the point of the varsity blues scandal. The most elite schools are for rich kids who also have top stats.

If they are just for rich kids, then they are not elite as far as academics go. We know they accept rich kids without high stats. It’s pay to play. Parents buy fancy education, expensive SAT prep, and so on. The money buys the stats indirectly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If you cannot afford a private, you send your kids to the stat schools, simple. We have told our kids that is what we can afford and have saved since birth. We rarely take a vacation, live in a house DCUM would be embarrassed by in order to fully pay for college and graduate school. Its about priorities.

Sure.

Meanwhile, universities and colleges continue to contribute to class division.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If you cannot afford a private, you send your kids to the stat schools, simple. We have told our kids that is what we can afford and have saved since birth. We rarely take a vacation, live in a house DCUM would be embarrassed by in order to fully pay for college and graduate school. Its about priorities.

Exactly. If people would just cut back some of that avocado toast …

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If you cannot afford a private, you send your kids to the stat schools, simple. We have told our kids that is what we can afford and have saved since birth. We rarely take a vacation, live in a house DCUM would be embarrassed by in order to fully pay for college and graduate school. Its about priorities.

That sounds reasonable, in theory. But if you have three kids (like us), there’s just no way to save close to $1M for private college on middle class wages. No matter how much you scrimp and save, especially when you have to pay for high quality day care and preschool.

Our goal was to save half of what tuition at an in-state public university would be, then plan on paying the rest out of pocket. It’s worked out so far with kids going to public universities (making the most of it with honors programs etc) and if we need to take out Plus loans for DC#3, so be it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a public school grad and happy to send my kid to a public or to a less competitive school with merit aid if she can get it. I don't think people who go to Ivies are automatically smarter or even better educated -- I've worked with many and it's just not the case.

However, this thread is FULL of people who are basically saying that middle class families should know their place. It's... gross. 90% of college threads on this site are about how important it is to go to an "elite" or name brand school, and now when people who can't afford those schools complain that they can't afford those schools, it's " why can't you be happy with a public school, not everyone has to go to Harvard?" I am happy with my own education and will be happy with wherever my DD goes, but I do find the attitude that people like us shouldn't aspire to going to these colleges pretty offensive. I would have done well at an Ivy -- I was a straight A student who loved school and had great study habits, and I later did very well at an "elite" law school. The fact that its was not possible for me to go without bankrupting my family is weird. It worked out fine, but it's weird to think that's an appropriate outcome.

This. 100%

So I came from a middle class family in a state in flyover country, which means we really didn’t make that much money to live a middle class life - I don’t think my parents ever made six figures, and they were both college-educated, white collar workers. Given my family’s finances, I knew it was the local university (tuition in the low thousands) or HYPS (tuition was mid-30K at the time, like 50% of my family’s income) with financial aid.

So I applied to HYPS with our local university as my safety school (it was not the state flagship). I got into HYPS and took out $80K in loans, my parents paid about $20K, and I got about $40K in grants (financial aid). It took my parents 10 years to pay off their loans, took me 20 years. My parents put 4 of us through HYPS and we all took out loans (and they took out loans) to make it work.

It is entitled to tell your kids to aspire to an expensive college but tell them they shouldn’t have to pay for it (which is really what you are saying). If you are this donut hole family you can afford an in-state option. If you don’t want to send you child or your child doesn’t want the affordable option, then they should take out loans - clearly you think there is value to this OOS or private college/university, so pay for it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you cannot afford a private, you send your kids to the stat schools, simple. We have told our kids that is what we can afford and have saved since birth. We rarely take a vacation, live in a house DCUM would be embarrassed by in order to fully pay for college and graduate school. Its about priorities.

Exactly. If people would just cut back some of that avocado toast …

We are talking about higher income families and yes, it is about cutting back the avocado toast. Thats how we built up the college funds. We did it the bulk of savings while making $125 or less.