What is a "donut hole family"?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a public school grad and happy to send my kid to a public or to a less competitive school with merit aid if she can get it. I don't think people who go to Ivies are automatically smarter or even better educated -- I've worked with many and it's just not the case.

However, this thread is FULL of people who are basically saying that middle class families should know their place. It's... gross. 90% of college threads on this site are about how important it is to go to an "elite" or name brand school, and now when people who can't afford those schools complain that they can't afford those schools, it's " why can't you be happy with a public school, not everyone has to go to Harvard?" I am happy with my own education and will be happy with wherever my DD goes, but I do find the attitude that people like us shouldn't aspire to going to these colleges pretty offensive. I would have done well at an Ivy -- I was a straight A student who loved school and had great study habits, and I later did very well at an "elite" law school. The fact that its was not possible for me to go without bankrupting my family is weird. It worked out fine, but it's weird to think that's an appropriate outcome.

This. 100%

So I came from a middle class family in a state in flyover country, which means we really didn’t make that much money to live a middle class life - I don’t think my parents ever made six figures, and they were both college-educated, white collar workers. Given my family’s finances, I knew it was the local university (tuition in the low thousands) or HYPS (tuition was mid-30K at the time, like 50% of my family’s income) with financial aid.

So I applied to HYPS with our local university as my safety school (it was not the state flagship). I got into HYPS and took out $80K in loans, my parents paid about $20K, and I got about $40K in grants (financial aid). It took my parents 10 years to pay off their loans, took me 20 years. My parents put 4 of us through HYPS and we all took out loans (and they took out loans) to make it work.

It is entitled to tell your kids to aspire to an expensive college but tell them they shouldn’t have to pay for it (which is really what you are saying). If you are this donut hole family you can afford an in-state option. If you don’t want to send you child or your child doesn’t want the affordable option, then they should take out loans - clearly you think there is value to this OOS or private college/university, so pay for it.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you cannot afford a private, you send your kids to the stat schools, simple. We have told our kids that is what we can afford and have saved since birth. We rarely take a vacation, live in a house DCUM would be embarrassed by in order to fully pay for college and graduate school. Its about priorities.

That sounds reasonable, in theory. But if you have three kids (like us), there’s just no way to save close to $1M for private college on middle class wages. No matter how much you scrimp and save, especially when you have to pay for high quality day care and preschool.

Our goal was to save half of what tuition at an in-state public university would be, then plan on paying the rest out of pocket. It’s worked out so far with kids going to public universities (making the most of it with honors programs etc) and if we need to take out Plus loans for DC#3, so be it.

You should have been able to save all of a state school. Your choice to overextend with three kids.

[Anonymous]

Right, but again: Most everyone COULD afford the EXACT SAME THING a generation or two ago, with a little effort.

It hurts to tell a super high-performer that he can't even apply to elite schools because you can't pay for them. Is it a tragedy? No. But when you have a MEMORY of those schools being in fact, affordable when you were his age, it hurts.

That's it.

P.S. I agree re: gutting state budgets for higher ed.

Colleges are charging what the market will pay. Undergraduate student loans drive up the price and end up knee capping many young people’s financial futures. IMHO it’s predatory lending to allow interest only loans with complicated payment/forgiveness schedules where borrowers often have limited or no financial education and experience at signing. Would like to see government step in by offering a GI type bill option (for teaching or other gov’t service jobs) rather than debt forgiveness which will incentivize continuation of the current problem.

FWIW my parents were solidly middle class/donut hole and couldn’t afford private college for 3 kids 30 years ago. Insisted we all go to in-state U which they paid for. I was a high performing student and wanted to apply elsewhere. Told them I’d get student loans. They were adamant I HAD to go to in-state school. Resented it at the time but graduated debt free, got a job and later went to grad school (paid for by my employer). This enabled me to buy my 1st place at 25 and later on afford private K-12 and college for my kids. I’m very grateful to my parents now for making that first big financial decision for me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:new poster here

Wow. I thought we were a "donut hole" family but I guess not.

What is a step below "donut hole" called? We make too much to qualify for aid, but paying for an expensive school would involve far more than "liquidating assets." It would be more like taking on a second full time job, skipping at least one meal a day, absolutely zero entertainment budget (not even cable tv or netflix) etc.

Well, there is this thing that you had 18 years to save for college. Which is what most people do.

You're assuming stagnant incomes. We have a HHI of about 225k and one in 7th and one in 8th. Three hears ago HHI was 150k. When the kids start college it will be about 250k if we continue on the same track. 160k a year in tuition is both not possible and not a number that we ever could have saved for on our incomes.

It's also laughable that PP thinks "most people" save for college for 18 years. I mean, GTFO.

Most people who expect that their children will attend college do.

College isn't for everyone and that's OK.

By "most people," do you mean "around 20%?"

What percentage of parents save for kids college?
However only 20 percent of parents between 30 and 59 years old were saving for their children's college education in 2017. It is estimated by some experts that a college education can lead to a lifetime earnings increase of around 250,000 U.S. dollars, however the rate of saving for college differs between generations.

https://www.statista.com/topics/1561/saving-for-college-in-the-us/

[Anonymous]

This is the United States of America, where anything is possible, at least for a white person. I literally went from being raised on food stamps to big law, where I made enough money to be able to pay full freight for my kids to attend any private college in America. Those of you who chose less lucrative careers cannot complain now about your inability to pay for the most expensive colleges. You made your choice, so now you live with it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is the United States of America, where anything is possible, at least for a white person. I literally went from being raised on food stamps to big law, where I made enough money to be able to pay full freight for my kids to attend any private college in America. Those of you who chose less lucrative careers cannot complain now about your inability to pay for the most expensive colleges. You made your choice, so now you live with it.

So only rich kids get to go to the best colleges? Ok, got it.

Also, do you think it's as easy to go from food stamps to elite career as easily as it was when you went to college....how many years ago?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is the United States of America, where anything is possible, at least for a white person. I literally went from being raised on food stamps to big law, where I made enough money to be able to pay full freight for my kids to attend any private college in America. Those of you who chose less lucrative careers cannot complain now about your inability to pay for the most expensive colleges. You made your choice, so now you live with it.

I think when people go into teaching, law enforcement, public defending, or non-profit management they know they won't be getting a beach house or fancy car out of the deal. And they're good with that. But having private colleges or out-of-state flagship schools off the table for their kids is harder to swallow. Comparing education, like healthcare, to a luxury good is distasteful to many.

[Anonymous]

Donut hole families should go abroad.

More straight forward admissions, money goes longer, less woke stuff.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is the United States of America, where anything is possible, at least for a white person. I literally went from being raised on food stamps to big law, where I made enough money to be able to pay full freight for my kids to attend any private college in America. Those of you who chose less lucrative careers cannot complain now about your inability to pay for the most expensive colleges. You made your choice, so now you live with it.

So only rich kids get to go to the best colleges? Ok, got it.

Also, do you think it's as easy to go from food stamps to elite career as easily as it was when you went to college....how many years ago?

Nope the best colleges are free for middle class kids. It’s just a middler middle than DCUM is used to.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you cannot afford a private, you send your kids to the stat schools, simple. We have told our kids that is what we can afford and have saved since birth. We rarely take a vacation, live in a house DCUM would be embarrassed by in order to fully pay for college and graduate school. Its about priorities.

That sounds reasonable, in theory. But if you have three kids (like us), there’s just no way to save close to $1M for private college on middle class wages. No matter how much you scrimp and save, especially when you have to pay for high quality day care and preschool.

Our goal was to save half of what tuition at an in-state public university would be, then plan on paying the rest out of pocket. It’s worked out so far with kids going to public universities (making the most of it with honors programs etc) and if we need to take out Plus loans for DC#3, so be it.

You should have been able to save all of a state school. Your choice to overextend with three kids.

Actually, it was a plan PP that let me work reduced hours when my kids were little and spend a lot of time with them, then gear back up now to pay for college. It’s worked so far. Not easy being a lawyer mom. And we love our kids. All three of them.

[Anonymous]

I find it odd on this thread that people somehow assume that state flagships are always affordable. That certainly wasn't the case for me. My state flagship was very expensive 20 years ago and cost of attendance is nearly $60k today. When I applied there was no merit aid available for any student. Financial aid cut off completely at $70k HHI, though it's probably higher today.

https://www.unh.edu/global/estimate-annual-expenses

I had a SAHM with four kids and a dad who was in and out of work, while living in a high COL area. When things were good he had a high income, when things weren't good he was unemployed and we had no income. We were constantly on the cusp of destitution from medical bills, elder care and job losses. But when FAFSA looked at our family we temporarily had a $150k HHI, which was much higher than our income ever had been before. Never mind the prior two years with zero income, credit card debt, and medical bills. There was also an expectation that my mom could work and contribute. But she was watching my 4 yo sister and grandmother with severe dementia. After being out of the job market for 15 years, her earnings wouldn't have covered their full time care.

My takeaway is that there is a lot that FAFSA doesn't consider. It's just one snapshot. It's entirely possible to live a responsible life and find yourself unable to afford college, even the in state option. I was fortunate enough to have the grades for a full ride at a low ranked private school, but had to turn down both a T20 and state flagship.

My parents did have a high income for my first three years of college before losing their income again during my senior year (which didn't affect my aid as fin aid is backward looking). They used those years to pay off debt from the last job loss and medical bills and to try to catch up on retirement. They were far from living the high life and certainly couldn't cash flow $35k in COA, which is what was expected based on the FAFSA. They also weren't in a position to take on big student loans for me, as they already had debt. The system felt entirely unfair at the time, and probably still is for those whose income varies a lot from year to year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:new poster here

Wow. I thought we were a "donut hole" family but I guess not.

What is a step below "donut hole" called? We make too much to qualify for aid, but paying for an expensive school would involve far more than "liquidating assets." It would be more like taking on a second full time job, skipping at least one meal a day, absolutely zero entertainment budget (not even cable tv or netflix) etc.

Well, there is this thing that you had 18 years to save for college. Which is what most people do.

You're assuming stagnant incomes. We have a HHI of about 225k and one in 7th and one in 8th. Three hears ago HHI was 150k. When the kids start college it will be about 250k if we continue on the same track. 160k a year in tuition is both not possible and not a number that we ever could have saved for on our incomes.

It's also laughable that PP thinks "most people" save for college for 18 years. I mean, GTFO.

Most people who expect that their children will attend college do.

College isn't for everyone and that's OK.

By "most people," do you mean "around 20%?"

What percentage of parents save for kids college?
However only 20 percent of parents between 30 and 59 years old were saving for their children's college education in 2017. It is estimated by some experts that a college education can lead to a lifetime earnings increase of around 250,000 U.S. dollars, however the rate of saving for college differs between generations.

https://www.statista.com/topics/1561/saving-for-college-in-the-us/

Meanwhile 66% of American high school graduates go on to college.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I find it odd on this thread that people somehow assume that state flagships are always affordable. That certainly wasn't the case for me. My state flagship was very expensive 20 years ago and cost of attendance is nearly $60k today. When I applied there was no merit aid available for any student. Financial aid cut off completely at $70k HHI, though it's probably higher today.

https://www.unh.edu/global/estimate-annual-expenses

I had a SAHM with four kids and a dad who was in and out of work, while living in a high COL area. When things were good he had a high income, when things weren't good he was unemployed and we had no income. We were constantly on the cusp of destitution from medical bills, elder care and job losses. But when FAFSA looked at our family we temporarily had a $150k HHI, which was much higher than our income ever had been before. Never mind the prior two years with zero income, credit card debt, and medical bills. There was also an expectation that my mom could work and contribute. But she was watching my 4 yo sister and grandmother with severe dementia. After being out of the job market for 15 years, her earnings wouldn't have covered their full time care.

My takeaway is that there is a lot that FAFSA doesn't consider. It's just one snapshot. It's entirely possible to live a responsible life and find yourself unable to afford college, even the in state option. I was fortunate enough to have the grades for a full ride at a low ranked private school, but had to turn down both a T20 and state flagship.

My parents did have a high income for my first three years of college before losing their income again during my senior year (which didn't affect my aid as fin aid is backward looking). They used those years to pay off debt from the last job loss and medical bills and to try to catch up on retirement. They were far from living the high life and certainly couldn't cash flow $35k in COA, which is what was expected based on the FAFSA. They also weren't in a position to take on big student loans for me, as they already had debt. The system felt entirely unfair at the time, and probably still is for those whose income varies a lot from year to year.

I just realized I linked the OOS cost. In state is still expensive at about $35k. With no aid or scholarship that's unaffordable for many.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is the United States of America, where anything is possible, at least for a white person. I literally went from being raised on food stamps to big law, where I made enough money to be able to pay full freight for my kids to attend any private college in America. Those of you who chose less lucrative careers cannot complain now about your inability to pay for the most expensive colleges. You made your choice, so now you live with it.

I think when people go into teaching, law enforcement, public defending, or non-profit management they know they won't be getting a beach house or fancy car out of the deal. And they're good with that. But having private colleges or out-of-state flagship schools off the table for their kids is harder to swallow. Comparing education, like healthcare, to a luxury good is distasteful to many.

This.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is the United States of America, where anything is possible, at least for a white person. I literally went from being raised on food stamps to big law, where I made enough money to be able to pay full freight for my kids to attend any private college in America. Those of you who chose less lucrative careers cannot complain now about your inability to pay for the most expensive colleges. You made your choice, so now you live with it.

So only rich kids get to go to the most expensive colleges? Ok, got it.

Also, do you think it's as easy to go from food stamps to elite career as easily as it was when you went to college....how many years ago?

Fixed that for you.