Be careful: The same people who are weaponizing school opening are also blocking safe opening

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am pro union and I don’t see it as the unions’ job to advocate for educational quality- their job is to advocate for the teachers’ interests.

It’s like expecting a union of Amazon workers to advocate for the customers- sorry that’s not their interest. It is a worker organization.

If you want higher quality teachers then teaching should be a higher paid and more respected profession like it is in other advanced countries. If it were a more competitive field you would see higher quality candidates.

So, it sounds like indeed, that unions confer no direct benefit to educational outcomes. So far, the only argument that I have seen is that blue areas have both unions and better educational outcomes. But it's not clear why that would be the causal connection and not other policies related to local politics. Or simple wealth.

The argument for a union is not for better products, it’s for better quality of life for the workers. Better products are often a byproduct. If unions do confer benefits to education it is an indirect result. I have no issues with this. It is just the definition of a union. I’m a little surprised at the naïveté of people who think the union is operating for the benefits of students or their parents. That’s just not their function.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am pro union and I don’t see it as the unions’ job to advocate for educational quality- their job is to advocate for the teachers’ interests.

It’s like expecting a union of Amazon workers to advocate for the customers- sorry that’s not their interest. It is a worker organization.

If you want higher quality teachers then teaching should be a higher paid and more respected profession like it is in other advanced countries. If it were a more competitive field you would see higher quality candidates.

I will continue to dispute this. Teacher pay in this region aligns with the pay to other government employees with similar education.

And no, teacher's unions do not limit their advocacy to protecting their workers. Their demands extend beyond workplace issues and they purport to speak for students and families. That's where they have overplayed their hands.

Is that true though? Citation?

Regardless, if we want high-quality teachers (and better outcomes for kids) we should increase the pay/respect/prestige.

Here is the salary schedule for Montgomery County teachers.

https://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/uploadedFiles/departments/ersc/employees/pay/schedules/fy21_mcea_salary_schedules.pdf

OK. And? That doesn't show how it "aligns to government employees with similar education".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Just googling around:

Average entry-level pay in DC with a BA (everyone): $53,175 (https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Salaries/Entry-Level-Bachelors-Degree-Salary-in-Washington,DC)

Average entry-level pay in DC with a BA (teacher): $56,313 (https://dcps.dc.gov/node/1057802)

The entry level pay isn’t the problem, it’s the pay in the middle of the scale. How much is that teacher making after 5 or 10 years? Because a fed will get grade increases every year until they Max out their job series grade, then they can either go supervisor or try to move into another position with a higher ceiling. The job series for my husband’s former position tops out at a 13 but most go into supervisor 14/15 jobs after that. The usual job series is 7-9-11-12 and a good employee will hit 9 and 11 after 1 year each. So at the beginning of their 3rd year as a fed they’d be making 72k.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm just a parent, not an expert on teaching or education policy.

However, having seen my kids through public schools, I would say that to the extent training is needed and helpful, teachers should be paid more and receive the training outside of the regular school year to avoid disruptions to student learning.

I question how helpful the PD teachers receive is when they are constantly being pulled from class and away from their students to receive it. It makes no sense.

This is a case where, if teachers had a voice, they could push for paid PD over the summer. They aren't picking these windows - the districts are.

I wasn't criticizing teachers; just pointing out that the current system for PD makes no sense and hurts children.

Agree - it's a shame our districts can't figure out how to schedule more efficiently. Granted some of this has been for mid-pandemic retooling so not planned in advance.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am pro union and I don’t see it as the unions’ job to advocate for educational quality- their job is to advocate for the teachers’ interests.

It’s like expecting a union of Amazon workers to advocate for the customers- sorry that’s not their interest. It is a worker organization.

If you want higher quality teachers then teaching should be a higher paid and more respected profession like it is in other advanced countries. If it were a more competitive field you would see higher quality candidates.

So, it sounds like indeed, that unions confer no direct benefit to educational outcomes. So far, the only argument that I have seen is that blue areas have both unions and better educational outcomes. But it's not clear why that would be the causal connection and not other policies related to local politics. Or simple wealth.

Areas with good schools value education, including teachers, and are willing to pay for it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just googling around:

Average entry-level pay in DC with a BA (everyone): $53,175 (https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Salaries/Entry-Level-Bachelors-Degree-Salary-in-Washington,DC)

Average entry-level pay in DC with a BA (teacher): $56,313 (https://dcps.dc.gov/node/1057802)

The entry level pay isn’t the problem, it’s the pay in the middle of the scale. How much is that teacher making after 5 or 10 years? Because a fed will get grade increases every year until they Max out their job series grade, then they can either go supervisor or try to move into another position with a higher ceiling. The job series for my husband’s former position tops out at a 13 but most go into supervisor 14/15 jobs after that. The usual job series is 7-9-11-12 and a good employee will hit 9 and 11 after 1 year each. So at the beginning of their 3rd year as a fed they’d be making 72k.

What top college grads are looking for a government position or teacher position?

Until top students consider it a respected, well-paid profession, we are stuck with only a handful of passionate top students. The rest are the dregs.

Who on here actually dreams that their kid becomes a teacher?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am pro union and I don’t see it as the unions’ job to advocate for educational quality- their job is to advocate for the teachers’ interests.

It’s like expecting a union of Amazon workers to advocate for the customers- sorry that’s not their interest. It is a worker organization.

If you want higher quality teachers then teaching should be a higher paid and more respected profession like it is in other advanced countries. If it were a more competitive field you would see higher quality candidates.

I will continue to dispute this. Teacher pay in this region aligns with the pay to other government employees with similar education.

And no, teacher's unions do not limit their advocacy to protecting their workers. Their demands extend beyond workplace issues and they purport to speak for students and families. That's where they have overplayed their hands.

Is that true though? Citation?

Regardless, if we want high-quality teachers (and better outcomes for kids) we should increase the pay/respect/prestige.

Here is the salary schedule for Montgomery County teachers.

https://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/uploadedFiles/departments/ersc/employees/pay/schedules/fy21_mcea_salary_schedules.pdf

OK. And? That doesn't show how it "aligns to government employees with similar education".

See above for comparison.

Also, here is the schedule for Maryland State employees.

https://www.marylandtaxes.gov/statepayroll/Static_Files/Salary_Scales/January2021-Standard-Salary-Scale.pdf

To give you an idea, an entry level public defender in Maryland is Grade 20 and would make a starting annual salary of around $62,000. People might debate whether a law degree is more difficult to obtain than a masters in education, but the point is that salaries are comparable, especially if you consider that teachers are paid for 10 months.

https://www.jobapscloud.com/MD/specs/classspecdisplay.asp?ClassNumber=005430&R1=undefined&R3=undefined

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just googling around:

Average entry-level pay in DC with a BA (everyone): $53,175 (https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Salaries/Entry-Level-Bachelors-Degree-Salary-in-Washington,DC)

Average entry-level pay in DC with a BA (teacher): $56,313 (https://dcps.dc.gov/node/1057802)

The entry level pay isn’t the problem, it’s the pay in the middle of the scale. How much is that teacher making after 5 or 10 years? Because a fed will get grade increases every year until they Max out their job series grade, then they can either go supervisor or try to move into another position with a higher ceiling. The job series for my husband’s former position tops out at a 13 but most go into supervisor 14/15 jobs after that. The usual job series is 7-9-11-12 and a good employee will hit 9 and 11 after 1 year each. So at the beginning of their 3rd year as a fed they’d be making 72k.

What top college grads are looking for a government position or teacher position?

Until top students consider it a respected, well-paid profession, we are stuck with only a handful of passionate top students. The rest are the dregs.

Who on here actually dreams that their kid becomes a teacher?

I was a prior poster, and I said STATE government. Federal employees are paid better than state government employees.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am pro union and I don’t see it as the unions’ job to advocate for educational quality- their job is to advocate for the teachers’ interests.

It’s like expecting a union of Amazon workers to advocate for the customers- sorry that’s not their interest. It is a worker organization.

If you want higher quality teachers then teaching should be a higher paid and more respected profession like it is in other advanced countries. If it were a more competitive field you would see higher quality candidates.

So, it sounds like indeed, that unions confer no direct benefit to educational outcomes. So far, the only argument that I have seen is that blue areas have both unions and better educational outcomes. But it's not clear why that would be the causal connection and not other policies related to local politics. Or simple wealth.

The argument for a union is not for better products, it’s for better quality of life for the workers. Better products are often a byproduct. If unions do confer benefits to education it is an indirect result. I have no issues with this. It is just the definition of a union. I’m a little surprised at the naïveté of people who think the union is operating for the benefits of students or their parents. That’s just not their function.

The union is literally making claims about how they're speaking for the benefit of students or their parents. And this is why I am shocked at seeing any parent take union claims at their word. They're not trying to help us. As you said, they don't care.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just googling around:

Average entry-level pay in DC with a BA (everyone): $53,175 (https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Salaries/Entry-Level-Bachelors-Degree-Salary-in-Washington,DC)

Average entry-level pay in DC with a BA (teacher): $56,313 (https://dcps.dc.gov/node/1057802)

The entry level pay isn’t the problem, it’s the pay in the middle of the scale. How much is that teacher making after 5 or 10 years? Because a fed will get grade increases every year until they Max out their job series grade, then they can either go supervisor or try to move into another position with a higher ceiling. The job series for my husband’s former position tops out at a 13 but most go into supervisor 14/15 jobs after that. The usual job series is 7-9-11-12 and a good employee will hit 9 and 11 after 1 year each. So at the beginning of their 3rd year as a fed they’d be making 72k.

I've actually never seen that to be true in the agencies in which I've worked. Those all have limits on the GS rank you can rise to given your job, so you can't jump from 7 to 9 to 11, for example.

If we look at a GS 7 (those with BAs), they start at about $50k in DC (step 1), and can get up to $60-$64K in about 10 years. That's still within grade, which is more in line with what I've seen.

The DC teachers' 10-month salary scale has them start at $56 and gets to $75K in 10 years (assuming a "step" is equivalent to a "year").

You seem to be describing a scenario of a really stellar person, which I would imagine in teacher world would be someone that gets additional education, like a MA or credits, and then becomes an administrator.

You seem to be describing more a scenario in which a teacher becomes an administrator, which would indeed bring a pay raise.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:people only talk about teacher pay as though it was low because people have been saying that for decades. it's nowhere near as true as it once was.

it's been established already that teachers make a comparable wage for their education in this area. every comparison i've seen which suggested they were out of alignment were comparing apples to oranges, like the average national salary for teachers to the average DC salary, or the average salary of a local teacher to the local HHI.

Welp, it will be politically impossible to give teachers raises now, regardless. I, for one, have become a pro-voucher democrat. It's unjust to tether families who can't afford private to closed schools indefinitely. Great if your kid likes DL, but for mine, it's worse than nothing at all.

+1

[Anonymous]

^^oops.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just googling around:

Average entry-level pay in DC with a BA (everyone): $53,175 (https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Salaries/Entry-Level-Bachelors-Degree-Salary-in-Washington,DC)

Average entry-level pay in DC with a BA (teacher): $56,313 (https://dcps.dc.gov/node/1057802)

The entry level pay isn’t the problem, it’s the pay in the middle of the scale. How much is that teacher making after 5 or 10 years? Because a fed will get grade increases every year until they Max out their job series grade, then they can either go supervisor or try to move into another position with a higher ceiling. The job series for my husband’s former position tops out at a 13 but most go into supervisor 14/15 jobs after that. The usual job series is 7-9-11-12 and a good employee will hit 9 and 11 after 1 year each. So at the beginning of their 3rd year as a fed they’d be making 72k.

^^no matter what data you give to these people, they will always claim that something ELSE is the problem. Like I could go out of my way to point out that teachers also get increases every year, and that they can also train for higher positions, but it wouldn't matter. Next she'd say that the problem is at the high end. Or in general prestige or comparing master's degrees or something. There's no point in arguing with someone who produces no actual non-anecdotal data and who rejects all of your data because they don't like the conclusion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just googling around:

Average entry-level pay in DC with a BA (everyone): $53,175 (https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Salaries/Entry-Level-Bachelors-Degree-Salary-in-Washington,DC)

Average entry-level pay in DC with a BA (teacher): $56,313 (https://dcps.dc.gov/node/1057802)

The entry level pay isn’t the problem, it’s the pay in the middle of the scale. How much is that teacher making after 5 or 10 years? Because a fed will get grade increases every year until they Max out their job series grade, then they can either go supervisor or try to move into another position with a higher ceiling. The job series for my husband’s former position tops out at a 13 but most go into supervisor 14/15 jobs after that. The usual job series is 7-9-11-12 and a good employee will hit 9 and 11 after 1 year each. So at the beginning of their 3rd year as a fed they’d be making 72k.

What agency?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just googling around:

Average entry-level pay in DC with a BA (everyone): $53,175 (https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Salaries/Entry-Level-Bachelors-Degree-Salary-in-Washington,DC)

Average entry-level pay in DC with a BA (teacher): $56,313 (https://dcps.dc.gov/node/1057802)

The entry level pay isn’t the problem, it’s the pay in the middle of the scale. How much is that teacher making after 5 or 10 years? Because a fed will get grade increases every year until they Max out their job series grade, then they can either go supervisor or try to move into another position with a higher ceiling. The job series for my husband’s former position tops out at a 13 but most go into supervisor 14/15 jobs after that. The usual job series is 7-9-11-12 and a good employee will hit 9 and 11 after 1 year each. So at the beginning of their 3rd year as a fed they’d be making 72k.

^^no matter what data you give to these people, they will always claim that something ELSE is the problem. Like I could go out of my way to point out that teachers also get increases every year, and that they can also train for higher positions, but it wouldn't matter. Next she'd say that the problem is at the high end. Or in general prestige or comparing master's degrees or something. There's no point in arguing with someone who produces no actual non-anecdotal data and who rejects all of your data because they don't like the conclusion.

I'm seeing that.