US News 2020 rankings

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Michigan is not a "commuter school" the way George Mason or Fordham are.

PP is desperate to paint Michigan as mediocre. It's pathetic.

Hey PP -- at Georgetown, most upperclassmen live off-campus. Is Georgetown a commuter school too?

It is another school that can't come close to creating a similar residential environment to most of the Ivy League and many other schools including LACs. If you look at Georgetown, although it is a fine school, it has a relatively low alumni giving rate and endowment compared to the schools that are more residential. I think there is a correlation.

Yet Michigan has massive alumni loyalty. I'm married to a Michigan alum and the loyalty is almost cultish. Michigan's endowment is $12 billion, the 9th highest in the country. Residential housing doesn't have the impact you think it does.

Your argument is specious. Just stop trying to make Michigan mediocre. It's not.

It is a huge school that does have a large endowment. It is way behind a lot of schools on a per capita basis. What percentage of Michigan's cultishly loyal alumni actually give back to the school vs. root for Big Blue vs Army? How does that percentage compare to other schools? Is it anywhere remotely close?

And what is the breakdown of that massive endowment? How much belongs to the medical center and benefits no undergraduates? How much to the Law School? Graduate Business? Athletics?

oh I see. You're trying to paint Michigan as a brainless sports-obsessed school.

Per student endowment doesn't tell the whole story. You know which school has the 2nd highest per student endowment? Soka University of America. It's higher than Harvard. Explain that to me. Does that mean Soka is better than Harvard?

Why don't you tell me how much money goes to Harvard undergrads as opposed to the law school?

You Google well! Which one is first? Princeton. Which school is first in USNWR? Princeton.

And is Soka second? No.

In fact, there's little correlation between USNWR and per capita endowment. One alignment doesn't equal a correlation.

Is that a fact, now?

I mean, you can literally run the 2 lists and derive the correlation coefficient. Or do you not know how to do that?

Well, go off and do it then. You argued there is no correlation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Michigan is not a "commuter school" the way George Mason or Fordham are.

PP is desperate to paint Michigan as mediocre. It's pathetic.

Hey PP -- at Georgetown, most upperclassmen live off-campus. Is Georgetown a commuter school too?

It is another school that can't come close to creating a similar residential environment to most of the Ivy League and many other schools including LACs. If you look at Georgetown, although it is a fine school, it has a relatively low alumni giving rate and endowment compared to the schools that are more residential. I think there is a correlation.

Yet Michigan has massive alumni loyalty. I'm married to a Michigan alum and the loyalty is almost cultish. Michigan's endowment is $12 billion, the 9th highest in the country. Residential housing doesn't have the impact you think it does.

Your argument is specious. Just stop trying to make Michigan mediocre. It's not.

It is a huge school that does have a large endowment. It is way behind a lot of schools on a per capita basis. What percentage of Michigan's cultishly loyal alumni actually give back to the school vs. root for Big Blue vs Army? How does that percentage compare to other schools? Is it anywhere remotely close?

And what is the breakdown of that massive endowment? How much belongs to the medical center and benefits no undergraduates? How much to the Law School? Graduate Business? Athletics?

oh I see. You're trying to paint Michigan as a brainless sports-obsessed school.

Per student endowment doesn't tell the whole story. You know which school has the 2nd highest per student endowment? Soka University of America. It's higher than Harvard. Explain that to me. Does that mean Soka is better than Harvard?

Why don't you tell me how much money goes to Harvard undergrads as opposed to the law school?

You Google well! Which one is first? Princeton. Which school is first in USNWR? Princeton.

And is Soka second? No.

In fact, there's little correlation between USNWR and per capita endowment. One alignment doesn't equal a correlation.

Is that a fact, now?

I mean, you can literally run the 2 lists and derive the correlation coefficient. Or do you not know how to do that?

Well, go off and do it then. You argued there is no correlation.

Sure:

Here are the top 25 USNWR universities. I've put their per student endowment ranking in parentheses. NR means they don't rank in the top 25 for per student endowment.

princeton (1)
harvard (4)
columbia (NR)
MIT (9)
Yale (3)
Stanford (5)
Chicago (24)
Penn (NR)
Northwestern (23)
Duke (25)
Hopkins (NR)
CalTech (12)
Dartmouth (16)
Brown (NR)
Notre Dame (17)
Vanderbilt (NR)
Cornell (NR)
Rice (NR)
WUSTL (NR)
UCLA? (NR)
Emory (NR)
Berkeley (NR)
USC (NR)
Georgetown (NR)
Carnegie Mellon (NR)

Should be pretty clear even without running a correlation coefficient that the correlation is pretty weak.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Michigan is not a "commuter school" the way George Mason or Fordham are.

PP is desperate to paint Michigan as mediocre. It's pathetic.

Hey PP -- at Georgetown, most upperclassmen live off-campus. Is Georgetown a commuter school too?

It is another school that can't come close to creating a similar residential environment to most of the Ivy League and many other schools including LACs. If you look at Georgetown, although it is a fine school, it has a relatively low alumni giving rate and endowment compared to the schools that are more residential. I think there is a correlation.

Yet Michigan has massive alumni loyalty. I'm married to a Michigan alum and the loyalty is almost cultish. Michigan's endowment is $12 billion, the 9th highest in the country. Residential housing doesn't have the impact you think it does.

Your argument is specious. Just stop trying to make Michigan mediocre. It's not.

It is a huge school that does have a large endowment. It is way behind a lot of schools on a per capita basis. What percentage of Michigan's cultishly loyal alumni actually give back to the school vs. root for Big Blue vs Army? How does that percentage compare to other schools? Is it anywhere remotely close?

And what is the breakdown of that massive endowment? How much belongs to the medical center and benefits no undergraduates? How much to the Law School? Graduate Business? Athletics?

And how much of undergraduate tuition that undergraduates pay actually is siphoned off to pay for research (without them even knowing it)? $524M in research is funded by Institutional (Internal) sources? Where do you think that comes from?

Do you think that's any different than the other major R1 universities? You're truly ignorant.

They are certainly not alone, but Michigan puts much more institutional funds into research than any other university, and substantially more on a per capita basis than almost all other schools. A lot of your tuition (and student loan debt) is going off to fund research.

Please provide proof that:

1. This is actually true.

2. This has a MEASURABLE negative impact on undergrad academic experience.

I'll wait.

I'm not gonna be your monkey.

Oh I see. You'd rather make statements without providing any proof.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Michigan is not a "commuter school" the way George Mason or Fordham are.

PP is desperate to paint Michigan as mediocre. It's pathetic.

Hey PP -- at Georgetown, most upperclassmen live off-campus. Is Georgetown a commuter school too?

It is another school that can't come close to creating a similar residential environment to most of the Ivy League and many other schools including LACs. If you look at Georgetown, although it is a fine school, it has a relatively low alumni giving rate and endowment compared to the schools that are more residential. I think there is a correlation.

Yet Michigan has massive alumni loyalty. I'm married to a Michigan alum and the loyalty is almost cultish. Michigan's endowment is $12 billion, the 9th highest in the country. Residential housing doesn't have the impact you think it does.

Your argument is specious. Just stop trying to make Michigan mediocre. It's not.

It is a huge school that does have a large endowment. It is way behind a lot of schools on a per capita basis. What percentage of Michigan's cultishly loyal alumni actually give back to the school vs. root for Big Blue vs Army? How does that percentage compare to other schools? Is it anywhere remotely close?

And what is the breakdown of that massive endowment? How much belongs to the medical center and benefits no undergraduates? How much to the Law School? Graduate Business? Athletics?

And how much of undergraduate tuition that undergraduates pay actually is siphoned off to pay for research (without them even knowing it)? $524M in research is funded by Institutional (Internal) sources? Where do you think that comes from?

Do you think that's any different than the other major R1 universities? You're truly ignorant.

They are certainly not alone, but Michigan puts much more institutional funds into research than any other university, and substantially more on a per capita basis than almost all other schools. A lot of your tuition (and student loan debt) is going off to fund research.

Please provide proof that:

1. This is actually true.

2. This has a MEASURABLE negative impact on undergrad academic experience.

I'll wait.

I'm not gonna be your monkey.

Oh I see. You'd rather make statements without providing any proof.

I'll provide you the lead. You go off and see if any other university puts as much institutional funds into research. They aren't going to tell you where the institutional funds are coming from, but a lot of it is going to be your hard earned tuition dollars.

https://ncsesdata.nsf.gov/profiles/site?method=report&fice=2325&id=h2

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Michigan is not a "commuter school" the way George Mason or Fordham are.

PP is desperate to paint Michigan as mediocre. It's pathetic.

Hey PP -- at Georgetown, most upperclassmen live off-campus. Is Georgetown a commuter school too?

It is another school that can't come close to creating a similar residential environment to most of the Ivy League and many other schools including LACs. If you look at Georgetown, although it is a fine school, it has a relatively low alumni giving rate and endowment compared to the schools that are more residential. I think there is a correlation.

Yet Michigan has massive alumni loyalty. I'm married to a Michigan alum and the loyalty is almost cultish. Michigan's endowment is $12 billion, the 9th highest in the country. Residential housing doesn't have the impact you think it does.

Your argument is specious. Just stop trying to make Michigan mediocre. It's not.

It is a huge school that does have a large endowment. It is way behind a lot of schools on a per capita basis. What percentage of Michigan's cultishly loyal alumni actually give back to the school vs. root for Big Blue vs Army? How does that percentage compare to other schools? Is it anywhere remotely close?

And what is the breakdown of that massive endowment? How much belongs to the medical center and benefits no undergraduates? How much to the Law School? Graduate Business? Athletics?

oh I see. You're trying to paint Michigan as a brainless sports-obsessed school.

Per student endowment doesn't tell the whole story. You know which school has the 2nd highest per student endowment? Soka University of America. It's higher than Harvard. Explain that to me. Does that mean Soka is better than Harvard?

Why don't you tell me how much money goes to Harvard undergrads as opposed to the law school?

You Google well! Which one is first? Princeton. Which school is first in USNWR? Princeton.

And is Soka second? No.

In fact, there's little correlation between USNWR and per capita endowment. One alignment doesn't equal a correlation.

Is that a fact, now?

I mean, you can literally run the 2 lists and derive the correlation coefficient. Or do you not know how to do that?

Well, go off and do it then. You argued there is no correlation.

Sure:

Here are the top 25 USNWR universities. I've put their per student endowment ranking in parentheses. NR means they don't rank in the top 25 for per student endowment.

princeton (1)
harvard (4)
columbia (NR)
MIT (9)
Yale (3)
Stanford (5)
Chicago (24)
Penn (NR)
Northwestern (23)
Duke (25)
Hopkins (NR)
CalTech (12)
Dartmouth (16)
Brown (NR)
Notre Dame (17)
Vanderbilt (NR)
Cornell (NR)
Rice (NR)
WUSTL (NR)
UCLA? (NR)
Emory (NR)
Berkeley (NR)
USC (NR)
Georgetown (NR)
Carnegie Mellon (NR)

Should be pretty clear even without running a correlation coefficient that the correlation is pretty weak.

You are mixing apples and oranges. Your USNWR list is national universities. Your endowment per capita is national universities plus liberal arts colleges with some specialty schools thrown in. So your top 25 in endowment per student is actually only 12 national universities and 13 non-national universities. The top 25 national unversities in endowment per student actually looks like this:

Princeton University
Yale University
Harvard University
Stanford University
Massachusetts Institute of Technology
California Institute of Technology
Rice University
Dartmouth College
University of Notre Dame
Northwestern University
University of Chicago
Duke University
University of Pennsylvania
Washington University in St. Louis
Emory University
Brown University
Vanderbilt University
Columbia University
Cornell University
University of Virginia
University of Michigan
University of Rochester
Lehigh University
Case Western Reserve University
Johns Hopkins

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Michigan is not a "commuter school" the way George Mason or Fordham are.

PP is desperate to paint Michigan as mediocre. It's pathetic.

Hey PP -- at Georgetown, most upperclassmen live off-campus. Is Georgetown a commuter school too?

It is another school that can't come close to creating a similar residential environment to most of the Ivy League and many other schools including LACs. If you look at Georgetown, although it is a fine school, it has a relatively low alumni giving rate and endowment compared to the schools that are more residential. I think there is a correlation.

Yet Michigan has massive alumni loyalty. I'm married to a Michigan alum and the loyalty is almost cultish. Michigan's endowment is $12 billion, the 9th highest in the country. Residential housing doesn't have the impact you think it does.

Your argument is specious. Just stop trying to make Michigan mediocre. It's not.

It is a huge school that does have a large endowment. It is way behind a lot of schools on a per capita basis. What percentage of Michigan's cultishly loyal alumni actually give back to the school vs. root for Big Blue vs Army? How does that percentage compare to other schools? Is it anywhere remotely close?

And what is the breakdown of that massive endowment? How much belongs to the medical center and benefits no undergraduates? How much to the Law School? Graduate Business? Athletics?

oh I see. You're trying to paint Michigan as a brainless sports-obsessed school.

Per student endowment doesn't tell the whole story. You know which school has the 2nd highest per student endowment? Soka University of America. It's higher than Harvard. Explain that to me. Does that mean Soka is better than Harvard?

Why don't you tell me how much money goes to Harvard undergrads as opposed to the law school?

You Google well! Which one is first? Princeton. Which school is first in USNWR? Princeton.

And is Soka second? No.

In fact, there's little correlation between USNWR and per capita endowment. One alignment doesn't equal a correlation.

Is that a fact, now?

I mean, you can literally run the 2 lists and derive the correlation coefficient. Or do you not know how to do that?

Well, go off and do it then. You argued there is no correlation.

Sure:

Here are the top 25 USNWR universities. I've put their per student endowment ranking in parentheses. NR means they don't rank in the top 25 for per student endowment.

princeton (1)
harvard (4)
columbia (NR)
MIT (9)
Yale (3)
Stanford (5)
Chicago (24)
Penn (NR)
Northwestern (23)
Duke (25)
Hopkins (NR)
CalTech (12)
Dartmouth (16)
Brown (NR)
Notre Dame (17)
Vanderbilt (NR)
Cornell (NR)
Rice (NR)
WUSTL (NR)
UCLA? (NR)
Emory (NR)
Berkeley (NR)
USC (NR)
Georgetown (NR)
Carnegie Mellon (NR)

Should be pretty clear even without running a correlation coefficient that the correlation is pretty weak.

You are mixing apples and oranges. Your USNWR list is national universities. Your endowment per capita is national universities plus liberal arts colleges with some specialty schools thrown in. So your top 25 in endowment per student is actually only 12 national universities and 13 non-national universities. The top 25 national unversities in endowment per student actually looks like this:

Princeton University
Yale University
Harvard University
Stanford University
Massachusetts Institute of Technology
California Institute of Technology
Rice University
Dartmouth College
University of Notre Dame
Northwestern University
University of Chicago
Duke University
University of Pennsylvania
Washington University in St. Louis
Emory University
Brown University
Vanderbilt University
Columbia University
Cornell University
University of Virginia
University of Michigan
University of Rochester
Lehigh University
Case Western Reserve University
Johns Hopkins

So next step: there are 399 national universities out of which the top 25 are ranked. Of those top 25 ranked, 20 were in the top 25 in endowment per capita, including the top 19.

[Anonymous]

You are mixing apples and oranges. Your USNWR list is national universities. Your endowment per capita is national universities plus liberal arts colleges with some specialty schools thrown in. So your top 25 in endowment per student is actually only 12 national universities and 13 non-national universities. The top 25 national unversities in endowment per student actually looks like this:

Princeton University
Yale University
Harvard University
Stanford University
Massachusetts Institute of Technology
California Institute of Technology
Rice University
Dartmouth College
University of Notre Dame
Northwestern University
University of Chicago
Duke University
University of Pennsylvania
Washington University in St. Louis
Emory University
Brown University
Vanderbilt University
Columbia University
Cornell University
University of Virginia
University of Michigan
University of Rochester
Lehigh University
Case Western Reserve University
Johns Hopkins

This looks to me in general agreement with the USNWR rankings. Most schools stay near their ranking positions.

[Anonymous]

Michigan is a garbage commuter school. It should be ranked 75, not 25. UVA has a 1550 SAT average while Umich is only 1250 average, how is UVA ranked lower? what a joke ranking.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Michigan is a garbage commuter school. It should be ranked 75, not 25. UVA has a 1550 SAT average while Umich is only 1250 average, how is UVA ranked lower? what a joke ranking.

Just give up.

You’re making yourself look like a fool.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Michigan is a garbage commuter school. It should be ranked 75, not 25. UVA has a 1550 SAT average while Umich is only 1250 average, how is UVA ranked lower? what a joke ranking.

I don't think you understand what a "commuter" school is. Michigan isn't one of them.

[Anonymous]

“So next step: there are 399 national universities out of which the top 25 are ranked. Of those top 25 ranked, 20 were in the top 25 in endowment per capita, including the top 19.”

Yep, huge correlation. Same story on the LAC side. I know as a parent who helped five kids develop their college lists that there’s a strong correlation between competitiveness for entry and endowment. Some outliers to be sure, but generally they align.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:“So next step: there are 399 national universities out of which the top 25 are ranked. Of those top 25 ranked, 20 were in the top 25 in endowment per capita, including the top 19.”

Yep, huge correlation. Same story on the LAC side. I know as a parent who helped five kids develop their college lists that there’s a strong correlation between competitiveness for entry and endowment. Some outliers to be sure, but generally they align.

If there’s a correlation, competitiveness isn’t part of it because USNWR doesn’t use acceptance rate anymore.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

You are mixing apples and oranges. Your USNWR list is national universities. Your endowment per capita is national universities plus liberal arts colleges with some specialty schools thrown in. So your top 25 in endowment per student is actually only 12 national universities and 13 non-national universities. The top 25 national unversities in endowment per student actually looks like this:

Princeton University
Yale University
Harvard University
Stanford University
Massachusetts Institute of Technology
California Institute of Technology
Rice University
Dartmouth College
University of Notre Dame
Northwestern University
University of Chicago
Duke University
University of Pennsylvania
Washington University in St. Louis
Emory University
Brown University
Vanderbilt University
Columbia University
Cornell University
University of Virginia
University of Michigan
University of Rochester
Lehigh University
Case Western Reserve University
Johns Hopkins

This looks to me in general agreement with the USNWR rankings. Most schools stay near their ranking positions.

USNWR uses per student spending to calculate ranking, so you can’t use them to prove some sort of outcome based on that spending.

[Anonymous]

How many spots up did Christopher Newport University move?

[Anonymous]

Lost in all this debate are the rankings of schools that 95% of the people on this forum may actually attend. Some interesting changes both up and down.

Pitt - 70 to 57
Florida State 70 to 57
Indiana 89 to 79
Buffalo 89 to 79

BYU 63 to 77
UC Santa Cruz 70 to 84
Clark 66 to 91
TCU 80 to 97
Yeshiva 80 to 97

Several Schools moved from the Regional to National Ranking:
Santa Clara - 54
Loyola Marymount - 64
Gonzaga - 79
Elon - 84