Is "Public Ivy" really a thing?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would argue that Ivy League isn't as much of a thing as it used to be. It's simply a shorthand term for top colleges. I have known educated people who didn't know that Stanford and MIT weren't Ivy League. For all practical purposes, I would say that these two schools are more "Ivy League" than schools like Dartmouth and Brown in which the general public is less familiar with.

It is exactly as it always has been - a sports conference.

Oh stop with that stupid "it's only a sports conference" thing -- you even disagree with it in your second sentence.

Words have meanings beyond the literal. Something is what people understand it to mean, and if you think when someone says "Ivy League" the first thing they think of is sports then you are deluded.

I'm not saying Ivy League schools are better than any other schools, but let's retire useless canards and discuss reality like adults.

You are mixing up posters.

Connotations are not "real". The only "real" thing is a group of 8 colleges/universities that form a sports conference. There are no public university equivalents of that organization.

People can use those terms to mean different things, but they aren't "real".

You are right, I mixed up posters. Sorry about that.

But you are wrong about what is "real" -- you don't get to decide what things mean. And the fact is that when you say "Ivy League" to most people, they do not think you are referring to sports.

Do you dispute that?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would argue that Ivy League isn't as much of a thing as it used to be. It's simply a shorthand term for top colleges. I have known educated people who didn't know that Stanford and MIT weren't Ivy League. For all practical purposes, I would say that these two schools are more "Ivy League" than schools like Dartmouth and Brown in which the general public is less familiar with.

It is exactly as it always has been - a sports conference.

Oh stop with that stupid "it's only a sports conference" thing -- you even disagree with it in your second sentence.

Words have meanings beyond the literal. Something is what people understand it to mean, and if you think when someone says "Ivy League" the first thing they think of is sports then you are deluded.

I'm not saying Ivy League schools are better than any other schools, but let's retire useless canards and discuss reality like adults.

You are mixing up posters.

Connotations are not "real". The only "real" thing is a group of 8 colleges/universities that form a sports conference. There are no public university equivalents of that organization.

People can use those terms to mean different things, but they aren't "real".

You are right, I mixed up posters. Sorry about that.

But you are wrong about what is "real" -- you don't get to decide what things mean. And the fact is that when you say "Ivy League" to most people, they do not think you are referring to sports.

Do you dispute that?

It's not "really a thing" just like public ivies are not "really a thing".

Just because people believe in Santa Claus doesn't make him real.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would argue that Ivy League isn't as much of a thing as it used to be. It's simply a shorthand term for top colleges. I have known educated people who didn't know that Stanford and MIT weren't Ivy League. For all practical purposes, I would say that these two schools are more "Ivy League" than schools like Dartmouth and Brown in which the general public is less familiar with.

It is exactly as it always has been - a sports conference.

Oh stop with that stupid "it's only a sports conference" thing -- you even disagree with it in your second sentence.

Words have meanings beyond the literal. Something is what people understand it to mean, and if you think when someone says "Ivy League" the first thing they think of is sports then you are deluded.

I'm not saying Ivy League schools are better than any other schools, but let's retire useless canards and discuss reality like adults.

You are mixing up posters.

Connotations are not "real". The only "real" thing is a group of 8 colleges/universities that form a sports conference. There are no public university equivalents of that organization.

People can use those terms to mean different things, but they aren't "real".

You are right, I mixed up posters. Sorry about that.

But you are wrong about what is "real" -- you don't get to decide what things mean. And the fact is that when you say "Ivy League" to most people, they do not think you are referring to sports.

Do you dispute that?

It's not "really a thing" just like public ivies are not "really a thing".

Just because people believe in Santa Claus doesn't make him real.

Your logic does not compute. We are discussing what a phrase means, not whether mythical creatures physically exist.

The phrase means something to most people in popular culture. That's where the argument ends. The canard "The Ivy League is a sports conference" is true, but "The Ivy League is just a sports conference" (or its equal, "It is exactly as it always has been - a sports conference") is not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would argue that Ivy League isn't as much of a thing as it used to be. It's simply a shorthand term for top colleges. I have known educated people who didn't know that Stanford and MIT weren't Ivy League. For all practical purposes, I would say that these two schools are more "Ivy League" than schools like Dartmouth and Brown in which the general public is less familiar with.

It is exactly as it always has been - a sports conference.

Oh stop with that stupid "it's only a sports conference" thing -- you even disagree with it in your second sentence.

Words have meanings beyond the literal. Something is what people understand it to mean, and if you think when someone says "Ivy League" the first thing they think of is sports then you are deluded.

I'm not saying Ivy League schools are better than any other schools, but let's retire useless canards and discuss reality like adults.

You are mixing up posters.

Connotations are not "real". The only "real" thing is a group of 8 colleges/universities that form a sports conference. There are no public university equivalents of that organization.

People can use those terms to mean different things, but they aren't "real".

You are right, I mixed up posters. Sorry about that.

But you are wrong about what is "real" -- you don't get to decide what things mean. And the fact is that when you say "Ivy League" to most people, they do not think you are referring to sports.

Do you dispute that?

It's not "really a thing" just like public ivies are not "really a thing".

Just because people believe in Santa Claus doesn't make him real.

Your logic does not compute. We are discussing what a phrase means, not whether mythical creatures physically exist.

The phrase means something to most people in popular culture. That's where the argument ends. The canard "The Ivy League is a sports conference" is true, but "The Ivy League is just a sports conference" (or its equal, "It is exactly as it always has been - a sports conference") is not.

The fact that people perceive that "Ivy League" means something more than a sports conference doesn't actually make it more than a sports conference. Similarly, the fact that people perceive that "Public Ivy" means something doesn't make it more than a writer's attempt to sell books. Perception is not reality. It's a lot of things, but not "real".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The fact that people perceive that "Ivy League" means something more than a sports conference doesn't actually make it more than a sports conference. Similarly, the fact that people perceive that "Public Ivy" means something doesn't make it more than a writer's attempt to sell books. Perception is not reality. It's a lot of things, but not "real".

See, this is where you are failing badly. If people take a word to mean something, then that is what it means. End period. You don't get to decide. It's not a "hot dog isn't a sandwich" argument; it's how language works.

For the record, the Ivy league is actually, and literally more than a sports conference, as it co-ordinates on many things. Most obvious example is they all co-operate on RD admissions dates. They share ED/EA information with each other to ensure compliance. They have conferences for their professionals - administrators, admissions people, and academicians -- which have nothing to do with sports. They market together. The have library and research cooperatives. So, even by your very narrow definition, you are also wrong.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The fact that people perceive that "Ivy League" means something more than a sports conference doesn't actually make it more than a sports conference. Similarly, the fact that people perceive that "Public Ivy" means something doesn't make it more than a writer's attempt to sell books. Perception is not reality. It's a lot of things, but not "real".

See, this is where you are failing badly. If people take a word to mean something, then that is what it means. End period. You don't get to decide. It's not a "hot dog isn't a sandwich" argument; it's how language works.

For the record, the Ivy league is actually, and literally more than a sports conference, as it co-ordinates on many things. Most obvious example is they all co-operate on RD admissions dates. They share ED/EA information with each other to ensure compliance. They have conferences for their professionals - administrators, admissions people, and academicians -- which have nothing to do with sports. They market together. The have library and research cooperatives. So, even by your very narrow definition, you are also wrong.

As coordinated through the sports recruiting process:
http://ivyserver.princeton.edu/ivy/downloads/rulesummary/ivysummary.pdf

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The fact that people perceive that "Ivy League" means something more than a sports conference doesn't actually make it more than a sports conference. Similarly, the fact that people perceive that "Public Ivy" means something doesn't make it more than a writer's attempt to sell books. Perception is not reality. It's a lot of things, but not "real".

See, this is where you are failing badly. If people take a word to mean something, then that is what it means. End period. You don't get to decide. It's not a "hot dog isn't a sandwich" argument; it's how language works.

For the record, the Ivy league is actually, and literally more than a sports conference, as it co-ordinates on many things. Most obvious example is they all co-operate on RD admissions dates. They share ED/EA information with each other to ensure compliance. They have conferences for their professionals - administrators, admissions people, and academicians -- which have nothing to do with sports. They market together. The have library and research cooperatives. So, even by your very narrow definition, you are also wrong.

As coordinated through the sports recruiting process:
http://ivyserver.princeton.edu/ivy/downloads/rulesummary/ivysummary.pdf

Very dishonest. That is NOT what that document says, in fact it says the opposite:

"The general Ivy principle is that recruited athletes should be considered for admission and financial aid, and should be notified of decisions about their admission and aid, on the same basis and under the same procedures as all other Ivy undergraduate students. "

What you posted is simply the rules for athletic admissions and practices. The one item created in these rules that does affect all students is the computation of the AI. When the admissions officers meet at their annual conference, they discuss all admissions, not just athletes.

Please be honest in your arguments and don't try and gish gallop and a mic drop. You'll get called on it every time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The fact that people perceive that "Ivy League" means something more than a sports conference doesn't actually make it more than a sports conference. Similarly, the fact that people perceive that "Public Ivy" means something doesn't make it more than a writer's attempt to sell books. Perception is not reality. It's a lot of things, but not "real".

See, this is where you are failing badly. If people take a word to mean something, then that is what it means. End period. You don't get to decide. It's not a "hot dog isn't a sandwich" argument; it's how language works.

For the record, the Ivy league is actually, and literally more than a sports conference, as it co-ordinates on many things. Most obvious example is they all co-operate on RD admissions dates. They share ED/EA information with each other to ensure compliance. They have conferences for their professionals - administrators, admissions people, and academicians -- which have nothing to do with sports. They market together. The have library and research cooperatives. So, even by your very narrow definition, you are also wrong.

As coordinated through the sports recruiting process:
http://ivyserver.princeton.edu/ivy/downloads/rulesummary/ivysummary.pdf

Very dishonest. That is NOT what that document says, in fact it says the opposite:

"The general Ivy principle is that recruited athletes should be considered for admission and financial aid, and should be notified of decisions about their admission and aid, on the same basis and under the same procedures as all other Ivy undergraduate students. "

What you posted is simply the rules for athletic admissions and practices. The one item created in these rules that does affect all students is the computation of the AI. When the admissions officers meet at their annual conference, they discuss all admissions, not just athletes.

Please be honest in your arguments and don't try and gish gallop and a mic drop. You'll get called on it every time.

Conference just for admissions officers from schools in the Ivy League? Or all admissions officers? Even still, that’s weak.

But they do put it best:
“Joint Statement for Candidates on Common Ivy Admission Procedure

The Ivy League is an association of eight institutions of higher education, established in 1954 primarily for the purpose of fostering amateurism in athletics. Although the Ivy League institutions are similar in many respects, each member institution makes its own independent admission decisions according to its own particular admissions policy.”

https://www.brown.edu/admission/undergraduate/apply/ivy-league-joint-statement

[Anonymous]

I've never heard anyone, ever, claim that their kid goes to an Ivy, then disclaim that actually it's a public ivy. I suspect this conversation was not worth the time and effort.

I got into both Cornell and W&M. I went to W&M as it was significantly less tuition. I heard it referred to frequently, while attending, as a public ivy as well as many references to it being the second oldest institution in the US.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Conference just for admissions officers from schools in the Ivy League? Or all admissions officers? Even still, that’s weak.

But they do put it best:
“Joint Statement for Candidates on Common Ivy Admission Procedure

The Ivy League is an association of eight institutions of higher education, established in 1954 primarily for the purpose of fostering amateurism in athletics. Although the Ivy League institutions are similar in many respects, each member institution makes its own independent admission decisions according to its own particular admissions policy.”

https://www.brown.edu/admission/undergraduate/apply/ivy-league-joint-statement

Great job arguing a point no one is disputing. No one disputes the Ivy League was formed as a sports conference. The point is -- and this has been repeated MANY TIMES, so this is the last time I am going to illustrate it for you -- that the term "Ivy League" means something to people which as nothing to do with sports; so saying "it's just a sports conference" is incredibly trite and kinda stupid.

/my turn to mic drop and I'm out.