26-27 Lottery data up

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow, charter elementary schools really have plummeted in demand.

For SY 19-20, there were 30 PCS with PK3 waitlists in the double digits (including LAMB even though they weren't in the common lottery, just cause, duh, they had huge waitlists back then).

This year? 13. The seven DCI feeders (DCB, MVP, MVC8, YY, LAMB, Stokes EE, Stokes BL), plus ITDS, Apple Tree Lincoln Park, EL Haynes, LEARN, Lee BL, and TR4.

And triple digit waitlists are basically an endangered species - just five and they're all DCI feeders (DCB, LAMB, Stokes BL, MVC8, YY). Back in SY 19-20 that was 14.

I would say overall, this is a great thing. Kids are getting spots they want. Way fewer kids settling for their 10th, 11th, 12th choice because they're shut out of so many options. Way more IB buy in for a wide variety of schools. This is waaaaay beyond what you'd expect with decreasing birth rates.

I had a PK3 kid in the years of insane waitlists and honestly the whole thing was pretty dumb. So much hype, so much stress, over a bunch of schools that aren't really that different from each other or from DCPS preschool.

There are fewer kids now, so some schools will have to shrink or close. It'll be interesting to see how it shakes out. But I'm so happy the days of waitlist craziness are behind us.

Using the OSSE enrollment audit spreadsheets from the current year and the 23-24 school year, so a two year comparison, it seems like total enrollment is down by 266 kids in PK3, 303 in PK4. Not a big difference in K and 1st but then 2nd grade is down by 270. 4th through 8th are up several hundred, but 6th is flat. 9 the is down the most, 408 kids. But the other high school grades are up-- 12th is up by 685!

It does seem like most of the preschool and lower elementary losses fell on the charter sector. Both sectors gained in upper elementary but in 6th DCPS gained and the charter sector shrank. The opposite for 9th grade, interestingly. So really a mixed bag, hard to make sense of.

PP here - yeah, this is interesting. I think a lot of what's happened is that back in the day, every UMC family just felt like they "needed" a HRCS, so no matter where they lived EOTP or what they actually thought of the specific schools, they put YY, DCB, MV, Stokes, ITDS, TR, Cap City, Haynes, CMI, Breakthrough, and then an Apple Tree and their IB as "backups." And a large number ended up at their IB and were disappointed, and all those folks were sitting on all the charter waitlists, making them so long.

But then, over time, hey, what do you know, it turns out our IB is actually not bad, and people in the neighborhood are now talking to people who are happy at their IB, and meanwhile the one neighbor who got into Cap City has got this long commute and what they have doesn't even sound all that much better? And now parents of younger kids are skipping all the HRCS (except for maybe a couple that are close by and/or have something they really like) and just putting their IB at/near the top of their list. Same number of kids (roughly) at the same schools, but they're not also sitting on the charter school waitlists driving the numbers sky high and feeling like they "lost".

Feels like a lot credit here is due to the unified lottery. When you just had to drive around and drop off a million applications, it feel like regular parenting due diligence, and if you got into an HRCS, you were psyched. Once you had to rank them ahead of time, people started actually evaluating them and realized they weren't worth the hype.

Totally this. But I do think some DCPS have genuinely improved. Stuart-Hobson in particular, and that's having a predictable effect on its feeders.

I think L-T gentrifying drove a lot of the new UMC kids at SH rather than the reverse.

I think it's both, but it only happens if the middle school is perceived to be acceptable or on an improving trajectory.

Stuart Hobson is objectively bad.

Based on increasing enrollment of in-boundary students and the length of their waitlist, it seems that your opinion of Stuart-Hobson is not shared by all.

There is one poster who is constantly posting that SH is not good. There was also a poster (maybe it’s the same person?) who claimed they were a tutor for a bunch of SH kids and that it’s not a good school. I think it’s the same person who is also constantly posting that DCPS has low standards. I kind of wish that Jeff forced handles on this particular forum so we could know. Or at least allow you to see post history for this form.

+1. It's not about silencing them; it's about acknowledging that it's one repeated poster with a huge chip on their shoulder who apparently hasn't had a kid at SH since the PARCC era.

Except not. You are literally calling for the manager because multiple people disagree with you.

Instead of touting your waitlist, which btw doesn’t really speak to school students quality but rather lack of options, why don’t you defend your opinion on Stuart Hobson?

Please defend amplify science. Defend the lack of tracking. Defend the lack of rigor in ELA. Defend the weak math curriculum. What about the lack of extracurriculars? People on Capitol Hill deserve better than Stuart Hobson and screaming for the moderator to silence me (and many others) because we think kids deserve more is not a good look.

I’m still waiting for this.

DP. nobody needs to “defend” themselves to you. You clearly value very different things from parents satisfied with EH and SH.

I agree with you. Me and many others who do not find dcps to be acceptable have different values. And as a dc resident I’m entitled to my opinion. Yet there are posters here who try to threaten me and others from stating our opinions. So I asked, instead of trashing me, please tell me why you think Stuart Hobson is great. No response. Because it isn’t, at least in my opinion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow, charter elementary schools really have plummeted in demand.

For SY 19-20, there were 30 PCS with PK3 waitlists in the double digits (including LAMB even though they weren't in the common lottery, just cause, duh, they had huge waitlists back then).

This year? 13. The seven DCI feeders (DCB, MVP, MVC8, YY, LAMB, Stokes EE, Stokes BL), plus ITDS, Apple Tree Lincoln Park, EL Haynes, LEARN, Lee BL, and TR4.

And triple digit waitlists are basically an endangered species - just five and they're all DCI feeders (DCB, LAMB, Stokes BL, MVC8, YY). Back in SY 19-20 that was 14.

I would say overall, this is a great thing. Kids are getting spots they want. Way fewer kids settling for their 10th, 11th, 12th choice because they're shut out of so many options. Way more IB buy in for a wide variety of schools. This is waaaaay beyond what you'd expect with decreasing birth rates.

I had a PK3 kid in the years of insane waitlists and honestly the whole thing was pretty dumb. So much hype, so much stress, over a bunch of schools that aren't really that different from each other or from DCPS preschool.

There are fewer kids now, so some schools will have to shrink or close. It'll be interesting to see how it shakes out. But I'm so happy the days of waitlist craziness are behind us.

Using the OSSE enrollment audit spreadsheets from the current year and the 23-24 school year, so a two year comparison, it seems like total enrollment is down by 266 kids in PK3, 303 in PK4. Not a big difference in K and 1st but then 2nd grade is down by 270. 4th through 8th are up several hundred, but 6th is flat. 9 the is down the most, 408 kids. But the other high school grades are up-- 12th is up by 685!

It does seem like most of the preschool and lower elementary losses fell on the charter sector. Both sectors gained in upper elementary but in 6th DCPS gained and the charter sector shrank. The opposite for 9th grade, interestingly. So really a mixed bag, hard to make sense of.

PP here - yeah, this is interesting. I think a lot of what's happened is that back in the day, every UMC family just felt like they "needed" a HRCS, so no matter where they lived EOTP or what they actually thought of the specific schools, they put YY, DCB, MV, Stokes, ITDS, TR, Cap City, Haynes, CMI, Breakthrough, and then an Apple Tree and their IB as "backups." And a large number ended up at their IB and were disappointed, and all those folks were sitting on all the charter waitlists, making them so long.

But then, over time, hey, what do you know, it turns out our IB is actually not bad, and people in the neighborhood are now talking to people who are happy at their IB, and meanwhile the one neighbor who got into Cap City has got this long commute and what they have doesn't even sound all that much better? And now parents of younger kids are skipping all the HRCS (except for maybe a couple that are close by and/or have something they really like) and just putting their IB at/near the top of their list. Same number of kids (roughly) at the same schools, but they're not also sitting on the charter school waitlists driving the numbers sky high and feeling like they "lost".

Feels like a lot credit here is due to the unified lottery. When you just had to drive around and drop off a million applications, it feel like regular parenting due diligence, and if you got into an HRCS, you were psyched. Once you had to rank them ahead of time, people started actually evaluating them and realized they weren't worth the hype.

Totally this. But I do think some DCPS have genuinely improved. Stuart-Hobson in particular, and that's having a predictable effect on its feeders.

I think L-T gentrifying drove a lot of the new UMC kids at SH rather than the reverse.

I think it's both, but it only happens if the middle school is perceived to be acceptable or on an improving trajectory.

Stuart Hobson is objectively bad.

Based on increasing enrollment of in-boundary students and the length of their waitlist, it seems that your opinion of Stuart-Hobson is not shared by all.

There is one poster who is constantly posting that SH is not good. There was also a poster (maybe it’s the same person?) who claimed they were a tutor for a bunch of SH kids and that it’s not a good school. I think it’s the same person who is also constantly posting that DCPS has low standards. I kind of wish that Jeff forced handles on this particular forum so we could know. Or at least allow you to see post history for this form.

+1. It's not about silencing them; it's about acknowledging that it's one repeated poster with a huge chip on their shoulder who apparently hasn't had a kid at SH since the PARCC era.

Except not. You are literally calling for the manager because multiple people disagree with you.

Instead of touting your waitlist, which btw doesn’t really speak to school students quality but rather lack of options, why don’t you defend your opinion on Stuart Hobson?

Please defend amplify science. Defend the lack of tracking. Defend the lack of rigor in ELA. Defend the weak math curriculum. What about the lack of extracurriculars? People on Capitol Hill deserve better than Stuart Hobson and screaming for the moderator to silence me (and many others) because we think kids deserve more is not a good look.

I’m still waiting for this.

DP. nobody needs to “defend” themselves to you. You clearly value very different things from parents satisfied with EH and SH.

I agree with you. Me and many others who do not find dcps to be acceptable have different values. And as a dc resident I’m entitled to my opinion. Yet there are posters here who try to threaten me and others from stating our opinions. So I asked, instead of trashing me, please tell me why you think Stuart Hobson is great. No response. Because it isn’t, at least in my opinion.

Nobody is trashing or threatening you. You do sound pretty tiresome though so maybe you should just move and stop complaining.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:6th grade OOB at SH is unquestionably a pretty difficult lottery draw. Part of why is that the school is otherwise enrolling ballpark 100 IB/feeder students each year. The Basis 5th grade lottery is so much more in the majority who list it (and do not match at Latin) will at least get offered a waitlist spot at Basis category. But lots of the students at Basis are IB for SH. The two schools are geographically pretty close together. Basis is niche enough it's mostly apples and oranges to compare the lottery difficulty - most people have clear preferences for one school over the other.

I think the key here is that the relationship between SH and BASIS is evolving, for SH-IB families.

Ten years ago, UMC families IB for SH were almost universally looking for other options and viewed BASIS as a better option. You would see a big exodus from any SH feeder (at the time Watkins was considered the "best" SH feeder, L-T was still Title 1 but had a growing reputation and increased neighborhood buy-in) in 5th grade to BASIS or Latin, but BASIS was considered especially desirable because of proximity. You saw the same with Brent and Maury -- virtually no buy in to feeder middle, lots of kids going to BASIS.

In the interim, people have refined their view of BASIS. It hasn't fallen in estimation, but people have realized it's not necessarily the right school for all kids. I think a LOT of the people who have decided that would prefer Latin, but Latin has become progressively harder to get into and in the last few years, there is a feeling like it's almost impossible to get a spot at either campus. Obviously some people still do, but if you don't have a sibling preference, people see it as a total crap shoot.

Which has led to more people giving SH a second look, and more IB families giving it a try. At first it was like "we'll try it for 6th" and some people would leave after 6th. That still happens sometimes. But other families have stayed, which means you hear more about IB kids going all the way through SH and then getting spots at application HSs. This has started to feel like a viable path for more families.

Which has changed how SH and BASIS are seen by prospective families. It's used to be that UMC families IB for SH who really valued strong education almost all wanted spots at BASIS (or Latin). Now it's more like families check out BASIS to see if it might be a fit for their kid, but also genuinely check out SH and consider that pathway. It's more like an actual choice. Now, plenty of parents actually decide they don't like either option and instead look at private school or moving (maybe after trying for Latin). But there's definitely a big shift from a decade ago when no one really saw SH as a viable choice. Now it's viewed as viable by a lot more people, with caveats. But BASIS also comes with caveats. So there's more comparability. And I see a similar thing happening at EH. So the middle school landscape on the Hill feels like there is more choice generally, even if many people (myself included) aren't super happy or excited about those choices. At least there *are* choices.

I agree with all of this. Next year, there is a pretty sizeable cohort of kids headed from L-T to SH, including enough CAPE ELA 5s to fill a class and a solid number of Math 5s (and if you add 4s, enough to fill a class). A couple of these kids have older siblings at SH, so are choosing it eyes wide open and/or didn't even lottery. L-T's theater program has also definitely built excitement for SH's and I know kids who are planning to go that route just to get the good cohort. Some of these kids might have preferred BASIS, but some definitely didn't (one went and came back) and only one high acheiving kid that I'm aware of is heading for private, so clearly there is a group of UMC parents who think that SH is good enough that they're willing to give it a shot.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:6th grade OOB at SH is unquestionably a pretty difficult lottery draw. Part of why is that the school is otherwise enrolling ballpark 100 IB/feeder students each year. The Basis 5th grade lottery is so much more in the majority who list it (and do not match at Latin) will at least get offered a waitlist spot at Basis category. But lots of the students at Basis are IB for SH. The two schools are geographically pretty close together. Basis is niche enough it's mostly apples and oranges to compare the lottery difficulty - most people have clear preferences for one school over the other.

I think the key here is that the relationship between SH and BASIS is evolving, for SH-IB families.

Ten years ago, UMC families IB for SH were almost universally looking for other options and viewed BASIS as a better option. You would see a big exodus from any SH feeder (at the time Watkins was considered the "best" SH feeder, L-T was still Title 1 but had a growing reputation and increased neighborhood buy-in) in 5th grade to BASIS or Latin, but BASIS was considered especially desirable because of proximity. You saw the same with Brent and Maury -- virtually no buy in to feeder middle, lots of kids going to BASIS.

In the interim, people have refined their view of BASIS. It hasn't fallen in estimation, but people have realized it's not necessarily the right school for all kids. I think a LOT of the people who have decided that would prefer Latin, but Latin has become progressively harder to get into and in the last few years, there is a feeling like it's almost impossible to get a spot at either campus. Obviously some people still do, but if you don't have a sibling preference, people see it as a total crap shoot.

Which has led to more people giving SH a second look, and more IB families giving it a try. At first it was like "we'll try it for 6th" and some people would leave after 6th. That still happens sometimes. But other families have stayed, which means you hear more about IB kids going all the way through SH and then getting spots at application HSs. This has started to feel like a viable path for more families.

Which has changed how SH and BASIS are seen by prospective families. It's used to be that UMC families IB for SH who really valued strong education almost all wanted spots at BASIS (or Latin). Now it's more like families check out BASIS to see if it might be a fit for their kid, but also genuinely check out SH and consider that pathway. It's more like an actual choice. Now, plenty of parents actually decide they don't like either option and instead look at private school or moving (maybe after trying for Latin). But there's definitely a big shift from a decade ago when no one really saw SH as a viable choice. Now it's viewed as viable by a lot more people, with caveats. But BASIS also comes with caveats. So there's more comparability. And I see a similar thing happening at EH. So the middle school landscape on the Hill feels like there is more choice generally, even if many people (myself included) aren't super happy or excited about those choices. At least there *are* choices.

I agree with all of this. Next year, there is a pretty sizeable cohort of kids headed from L-T to SH, including enough CAPE ELA 5s to fill a class and a solid number of Math 5s (and if you add 4s, enough to fill a class). A couple of these kids have older siblings at SH, so are choosing it eyes wide open and/or didn't even lottery. L-T's theater program has also definitely built excitement for SH's and I know kids who are planning to go that route just to get the good cohort. Some of these kids might have preferred BASIS, but some definitely didn't (one went and came back) and only one high acheiving kid that I'm aware of is heading for private, so clearly there is a group of UMC parents who think that SH is good enough that they're willing to give it a shot.

Out of curiosity .... which privates are the Maury and LT kids heading to, if they do choose that route? We're still a few years away from middle school and definitely do not have private-school salaries but curious nonetheless.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:6th grade OOB at SH is unquestionably a pretty difficult lottery draw. Part of why is that the school is otherwise enrolling ballpark 100 IB/feeder students each year. The Basis 5th grade lottery is so much more in the majority who list it (and do not match at Latin) will at least get offered a waitlist spot at Basis category. But lots of the students at Basis are IB for SH. The two schools are geographically pretty close together. Basis is niche enough it's mostly apples and oranges to compare the lottery difficulty - most people have clear preferences for one school over the other.

I think the key here is that the relationship between SH and BASIS is evolving, for SH-IB families.

Ten years ago, UMC families IB for SH were almost universally looking for other options and viewed BASIS as a better option. You would see a big exodus from any SH feeder (at the time Watkins was considered the "best" SH feeder, L-T was still Title 1 but had a growing reputation and increased neighborhood buy-in) in 5th grade to BASIS or Latin, but BASIS was considered especially desirable because of proximity. You saw the same with Brent and Maury -- virtually no buy in to feeder middle, lots of kids going to BASIS.

In the interim, people have refined their view of BASIS. It hasn't fallen in estimation, but people have realized it's not necessarily the right school for all kids. I think a LOT of the people who have decided that would prefer Latin, but Latin has become progressively harder to get into and in the last few years, there is a feeling like it's almost impossible to get a spot at either campus. Obviously some people still do, but if you don't have a sibling preference, people see it as a total crap shoot.

Which has led to more people giving SH a second look, and more IB families giving it a try. At first it was like "we'll try it for 6th" and some people would leave after 6th. That still happens sometimes. But other families have stayed, which means you hear more about IB kids going all the way through SH and then getting spots at application HSs. This has started to feel like a viable path for more families.

Which has changed how SH and BASIS are seen by prospective families. It's used to be that UMC families IB for SH who really valued strong education almost all wanted spots at BASIS (or Latin). Now it's more like families check out BASIS to see if it might be a fit for their kid, but also genuinely check out SH and consider that pathway. It's more like an actual choice. Now, plenty of parents actually decide they don't like either option and instead look at private school or moving (maybe after trying for Latin). But there's definitely a big shift from a decade ago when no one really saw SH as a viable choice. Now it's viewed as viable by a lot more people, with caveats. But BASIS also comes with caveats. So there's more comparability. And I see a similar thing happening at EH. So the middle school landscape on the Hill feels like there is more choice generally, even if many people (myself included) aren't super happy or excited about those choices. At least there *are* choices.

I agree with all of this. Next year, there is a pretty sizeable cohort of kids headed from L-T to SH, including enough CAPE ELA 5s to fill a class and a solid number of Math 5s (and if you add 4s, enough to fill a class). A couple of these kids have older siblings at SH, so are choosing it eyes wide open and/or didn't even lottery. L-T's theater program has also definitely built excitement for SH's and I know kids who are planning to go that route just to get the good cohort. Some of these kids might have preferred BASIS, but some definitely didn't (one went and came back) and only one high acheiving kid that I'm aware of is heading for private, so clearly there is a group of UMC parents who think that SH is good enough that they're willing to give it a shot.

Out of curiosity .... which privates are the Maury and LT kids heading to, if they do choose that route? We're still a few years away from middle school and definitely do not have private-school salaries but curious nonetheless.

LT grads I’m aware of headed to CHDS, GDS and Maret last year; the only one I know of this year is headed to Maret.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow, charter elementary schools really have plummeted in demand.

For SY 19-20, there were 30 PCS with PK3 waitlists in the double digits (including LAMB even though they weren't in the common lottery, just cause, duh, they had huge waitlists back then).

This year? 13. The seven DCI feeders (DCB, MVP, MVC8, YY, LAMB, Stokes EE, Stokes BL), plus ITDS, Apple Tree Lincoln Park, EL Haynes, LEARN, Lee BL, and TR4.

And triple digit waitlists are basically an endangered species - just five and they're all DCI feeders (DCB, LAMB, Stokes BL, MVC8, YY). Back in SY 19-20 that was 14.

I would say overall, this is a great thing. Kids are getting spots they want. Way fewer kids settling for their 10th, 11th, 12th choice because they're shut out of so many options. Way more IB buy in for a wide variety of schools. This is waaaaay beyond what you'd expect with decreasing birth rates.

I had a PK3 kid in the years of insane waitlists and honestly the whole thing was pretty dumb. So much hype, so much stress, over a bunch of schools that aren't really that different from each other or from DCPS preschool.

There are fewer kids now, so some schools will have to shrink or close. It'll be interesting to see how it shakes out. But I'm so happy the days of waitlist craziness are behind us.

Using the OSSE enrollment audit spreadsheets from the current year and the 23-24 school year, so a two year comparison, it seems like total enrollment is down by 266 kids in PK3, 303 in PK4. Not a big difference in K and 1st but then 2nd grade is down by 270. 4th through 8th are up several hundred, but 6th is flat. 9 the is down the most, 408 kids. But the other high school grades are up-- 12th is up by 685!

It does seem like most of the preschool and lower elementary losses fell on the charter sector. Both sectors gained in upper elementary but in 6th DCPS gained and the charter sector shrank. The opposite for 9th grade, interestingly. So really a mixed bag, hard to make sense of.

PP here - yeah, this is interesting. I think a lot of what's happened is that back in the day, every UMC family just felt like they "needed" a HRCS, so no matter where they lived EOTP or what they actually thought of the specific schools, they put YY, DCB, MV, Stokes, ITDS, TR, Cap City, Haynes, CMI, Breakthrough, and then an Apple Tree and their IB as "backups." And a large number ended up at their IB and were disappointed, and all those folks were sitting on all the charter waitlists, making them so long.

But then, over time, hey, what do you know, it turns out our IB is actually not bad, and people in the neighborhood are now talking to people who are happy at their IB, and meanwhile the one neighbor who got into Cap City has got this long commute and what they have doesn't even sound all that much better? And now parents of younger kids are skipping all the HRCS (except for maybe a couple that are close by and/or have something they really like) and just putting their IB at/near the top of their list. Same number of kids (roughly) at the same schools, but they're not also sitting on the charter school waitlists driving the numbers sky high and feeling like they "lost".

Feels like a lot credit here is due to the unified lottery. When you just had to drive around and drop off a million applications, it feel like regular parenting due diligence, and if you got into an HRCS, you were psyched. Once you had to rank them ahead of time, people started actually evaluating them and realized they weren't worth the hype.

Totally this. But I do think some DCPS have genuinely improved. Stuart-Hobson in particular, and that's having a predictable effect on its feeders.

I think L-T gentrifying drove a lot of the new UMC kids at SH rather than the reverse.

I think it's both, but it only happens if the middle school is perceived to be acceptable or on an improving trajectory.

Stuart Hobson is objectively bad.

Based on increasing enrollment of in-boundary students and the length of their waitlist, it seems that your opinion of Stuart-Hobson is not shared by all.

There is one poster who is constantly posting that SH is not good. There was also a poster (maybe it’s the same person?) who claimed they were a tutor for a bunch of SH kids and that it’s not a good school. I think it’s the same person who is also constantly posting that DCPS has low standards. I kind of wish that Jeff forced handles on this particular forum so we could know. Or at least allow you to see post history for this form.

+1. It's not about silencing them; it's about acknowledging that it's one repeated poster with a huge chip on their shoulder who apparently hasn't had a kid at SH since the PARCC era.

Except not. You are literally calling for the manager because multiple people disagree with you.

Instead of touting your waitlist, which btw doesn’t really speak to school students quality but rather lack of options, why don’t you defend your opinion on Stuart Hobson?

Please defend amplify science. Defend the lack of tracking. Defend the lack of rigor in ELA. Defend the weak math curriculum. What about the lack of extracurriculars? People on Capitol Hill deserve better than Stuart Hobson and screaming for the moderator to silence me (and many others) because we think kids deserve more is not a good look.

I’m still waiting for this.

DP. nobody needs to “defend” themselves to you. You clearly value very different things from parents satisfied with EH and SH.

I agree with you. Me and many others who do not find dcps to be acceptable have different values. And as a dc resident I’m entitled to my opinion. Yet there are posters here who try to threaten me and others from stating our opinions. So I asked, instead of trashing me, please tell me why you think Stuart Hobson is great. No response. Because it isn’t, at least in my opinion.

Nobody is trashing or threatening you. You do sound pretty tiresome though so maybe you should just move and stop complaining.

+1
I do wonder if this poster even has kids in DCPS, with how angry/negative their posts are all the time. Are they in a school and miserable? Or have they left for private/suburbs and just come back on here repeatedly in attempts to enlighten the rest of us? Either way -- the point has been made - and its bogging down threads/discussions that could otherwise be interesting. We got it, you made your point -- now let the rest of the people engage in a conversation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Also at a DCI feeder with a DCI offer (thankfully) and families that didn’t get in are talking about moving. Precarious situation to be in and I feel terribly for those kids who are facing both that disappointment and a major transition.

Yeah I really don't like this. This is supposed to be a feeder track that appears to run parallel to DCPS as an alternative. The system should be organized so that all the feeder elementary schools can send their kids to the middle school.

Who is running this system?

The elementary schools are very aware of DCI’s enrollment constraints. They expanded after DCI told the middle school would not match the moves.

But most charters have to expand enrollment to continue being viable. So it’s a no-win situation for the elementaries.

Stokes had plans to open a small language-focused MS EOTR and DCI made them abandon that effort. It would work so much better for the kids at the East End Campus.

Would love to hear more takes on the State of The Immersion Charters as you all see this lottery data coming in. For instance, which schools are still worthwhile from a learning/academic perspective even if you don't end up at DCI? I'd like to think that several years of language immersion or bilingual experience is not nothing, especially for a family targeting a heritage language. I see the WL shrinking for some but don't think that's necessarily a good signal and am new to this data and process. We're yet another Hill family interested in language but out of bounds for Chisholm.

[Anonymous]

UMC parents who can pay for private are at better odds to try SH or EH knowing that if Walls doesn't pan out, they can send their kid to private high school school. I think a lot of the BASIS/Latin boosters from the Hill are people who cannot pay for private and want to secure the path to 12th grade without the stress of trying to get into Walls and know that Eastern isn't going to cut it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:6th grade OOB at SH is unquestionably a pretty difficult lottery draw. Part of why is that the school is otherwise enrolling ballpark 100 IB/feeder students each year. The Basis 5th grade lottery is so much more in the majority who list it (and do not match at Latin) will at least get offered a waitlist spot at Basis category. But lots of the students at Basis are IB for SH. The two schools are geographically pretty close together. Basis is niche enough it's mostly apples and oranges to compare the lottery difficulty - most people have clear preferences for one school over the other.

I think the key here is that the relationship between SH and BASIS is evolving, for SH-IB families.

Ten years ago, UMC families IB for SH were almost universally looking for other options and viewed BASIS as a better option. You would see a big exodus from any SH feeder (at the time Watkins was considered the "best" SH feeder, L-T was still Title 1 but had a growing reputation and increased neighborhood buy-in) in 5th grade to BASIS or Latin, but BASIS was considered especially desirable because of proximity. You saw the same with Brent and Maury -- virtually no buy in to feeder middle, lots of kids going to BASIS.

In the interim, people have refined their view of BASIS. It hasn't fallen in estimation, but people have realized it's not necessarily the right school for all kids. I think a LOT of the people who have decided that would prefer Latin, but Latin has become progressively harder to get into and in the last few years, there is a feeling like it's almost impossible to get a spot at either campus. Obviously some people still do, but if you don't have a sibling preference, people see it as a total crap shoot.

Which has led to more people giving SH a second look, and more IB families giving it a try. At first it was like "we'll try it for 6th" and some people would leave after 6th. That still happens sometimes. But other families have stayed, which means you hear more about IB kids going all the way through SH and then getting spots at application HSs. This has started to feel like a viable path for more families.

Which has changed how SH and BASIS are seen by prospective families. It's used to be that UMC families IB for SH who really valued strong education almost all wanted spots at BASIS (or Latin). Now it's more like families check out BASIS to see if it might be a fit for their kid, but also genuinely check out SH and consider that pathway. It's more like an actual choice. Now, plenty of parents actually decide they don't like either option and instead look at private school or moving (maybe after trying for Latin). But there's definitely a big shift from a decade ago when no one really saw SH as a viable choice. Now it's viewed as viable by a lot more people, with caveats. But BASIS also comes with caveats. So there's more comparability. And I see a similar thing happening at EH. So the middle school landscape on the Hill feels like there is more choice generally, even if many people (myself included) aren't super happy or excited about those choices. At least there *are* choices.

I agree with all of this. Next year, there is a pretty sizeable cohort of kids headed from L-T to SH, including enough CAPE ELA 5s to fill a class and a solid number of Math 5s (and if you add 4s, enough to fill a class). A couple of these kids have older siblings at SH, so are choosing it eyes wide open and/or didn't even lottery. L-T's theater program has also definitely built excitement for SH's and I know kids who are planning to go that route just to get the good cohort. Some of these kids might have preferred BASIS, but some definitely didn't (one went and came back) and only one high acheiving kid that I'm aware of is heading for private, so clearly there is a group of UMC parents who think that SH is good enough that they're willing to give it a shot.

I have a high achieving kid headed to SH next year and this is similar to our thinking. The SH theater program is really impressive and our DC is very interested in it. The school has to be doing something right if it can pull off a program of that caliber and expect that level of rigor from kids.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Wow, charter elementary schools really have plummeted in demand.

For SY 19-20, there were 30 PCS with PK3 waitlists in the double digits (including LAMB even though they weren't in the common lottery, just cause, duh, they had huge waitlists back then).

This year? 13. The seven DCI feeders (DCB, MVP, MVC8, YY, LAMB, Stokes EE, Stokes BL), plus ITDS, Apple Tree Lincoln Park, EL Haynes, LEARN, Lee BL, and TR4.

And triple digit waitlists are basically an endangered species - just five and they're all DCI feeders (DCB, LAMB, Stokes BL, MVC8, YY). Back in SY 19-20 that was 14.

I would say overall, this is a great thing. Kids are getting spots they want. Way fewer kids settling for their 10th, 11th, 12th choice because they're shut out of so many options. Way more IB buy in for a wide variety of schools. This is waaaaay beyond what you'd expect with decreasing birth rates.

I had a PK3 kid in the years of insane waitlists and honestly the whole thing was pretty dumb. So much hype, so much stress, over a bunch of schools that aren't really that different from each other or from DCPS preschool.

There are fewer kids now, so some schools will have to shrink or close. It'll be interesting to see how it shakes out. But I'm so happy the days of waitlist craziness are behind us.

Using the OSSE enrollment audit spreadsheets from the current year and the 23-24 school year, so a two year comparison, it seems like total enrollment is down by 266 kids in PK3, 303 in PK4. Not a big difference in K and 1st but then 2nd grade is down by 270. 4th through 8th are up several hundred, but 6th is flat. 9 the is down the most, 408 kids. But the other high school grades are up-- 12th is up by 685!

It does seem like most of the preschool and lower elementary losses fell on the charter sector. Both sectors gained in upper elementary but in 6th DCPS gained and the charter sector shrank. The opposite for 9th grade, interestingly. So really a mixed bag, hard to make sense of.

PP here - yeah, this is interesting. I think a lot of what's happened is that back in the day, every UMC family just felt like they "needed" a HRCS, so no matter where they lived EOTP or what they actually thought of the specific schools, they put YY, DCB, MV, Stokes, ITDS, TR, Cap City, Haynes, CMI, Breakthrough, and then an Apple Tree and their IB as "backups." And a large number ended up at their IB and were disappointed, and all those folks were sitting on all the charter waitlists, making them so long.

But then, over time, hey, what do you know, it turns out our IB is actually not bad, and people in the neighborhood are now talking to people who are happy at their IB, and meanwhile the one neighbor who got into Cap City has got this long commute and what they have doesn't even sound all that much better? And now parents of younger kids are skipping all the HRCS (except for maybe a couple that are close by and/or have something they really like) and just putting their IB at/near the top of their list. Same number of kids (roughly) at the same schools, but they're not also sitting on the charter school waitlists driving the numbers sky high and feeling like they "lost".

Feels like a lot credit here is due to the unified lottery. When you just had to drive around and drop off a million applications, it feel like regular parenting due diligence, and if you got into an HRCS, you were psyched. Once you had to rank them ahead of time, people started actually evaluating them and realized they weren't worth the hype.

Totally this. But I do think some DCPS have genuinely improved. Stuart-Hobson in particular, and that's having a predictable effect on its feeders.

I think L-T gentrifying drove a lot of the new UMC kids at SH rather than the reverse.

I think it's both, but it only happens if the middle school is perceived to be acceptable or on an improving trajectory.

Stuart Hobson is objectively bad.

Based on increasing enrollment of in-boundary students and the length of their waitlist, it seems that your opinion of Stuart-Hobson is not shared by all.

There is one poster who is constantly posting that SH is not good. There was also a poster (maybe it’s the same person?) who claimed they were a tutor for a bunch of SH kids and that it’s not a good school. I think it’s the same person who is also constantly posting that DCPS has low standards. I kind of wish that Jeff forced handles on this particular forum so we could know. Or at least allow you to see post history for this form.

Don't forget they also saw a fight outside of school and kids using swears!!!! [clutches pearls]

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:(Sniff.) “Basis just isn’t a good fit for every child.”

Children flock to other schools.

“Wait, wait, why aren’t you coming here? When we said Basis wasn’t a good fit for you, we didn’t mean you should want to go somewhere else instead!”

Let it be known that this person made this into a BASIS thing. Now we get so see the DCUM that always plays out. A BASIS person will reply (not altogether unreasonable) and then usual suspects will chime in to ask why BASIS parents take over everything.

P.S. What exactly is wrong with observing that a school is not a good fit for every kid?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:(Sniff.) “Basis just isn’t a good fit for every child.”

Children flock to other schools.

“Wait, wait, why aren’t you coming here? When we said Basis wasn’t a good fit for you, we didn’t mean you should want to go somewhere else instead!”

Let it be known that this person made this into a BASIS thing. Now we get so see the DCUM that always plays out. A BASIS person will reply (not altogether unreasonable) and then usual suspects will chime in to ask why BASIS parents take over everything.

P.S. What exactly is wrong with observing that a school is not a good fit for every kid?

I guess I'll be that person. I'm a BASIS parent and i literally don't know a single other parent who thinks BASIS is a good fit for all kids. It's not. Most of us held our breathe throughout 5th and 6th trying to figure out if it was even a good fit for our own kids.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Wow, charter elementary schools really have plummeted in demand.

For SY 19-20, there were 30 PCS with PK3 waitlists in the double digits (including LAMB even though they weren't in the common lottery, just cause, duh, they had huge waitlists back then).

This year? 13. The seven DCI feeders (DCB, MVP, MVC8, YY, LAMB, Stokes EE, Stokes BL), plus ITDS, Apple Tree Lincoln Park, EL Haynes, LEARN, Lee BL, and TR4.

And triple digit waitlists are basically an endangered species - just five and they're all DCI feeders (DCB, LAMB, Stokes BL, MVC8, YY). Back in SY 19-20 that was 14.

I would say overall, this is a great thing. Kids are getting spots they want. Way fewer kids settling for their 10th, 11th, 12th choice because they're shut out of so many options. Way more IB buy in for a wide variety of schools. This is waaaaay beyond what you'd expect with decreasing birth rates.

I had a PK3 kid in the years of insane waitlists and honestly the whole thing was pretty dumb. So much hype, so much stress, over a bunch of schools that aren't really that different from each other or from DCPS preschool.

There are fewer kids now, so some schools will have to shrink or close. It'll be interesting to see how it shakes out. But I'm so happy the days of waitlist craziness are behind us.

Using the OSSE enrollment audit spreadsheets from the current year and the 23-24 school year, so a two year comparison, it seems like total enrollment is down by 266 kids in PK3, 303 in PK4. Not a big difference in K and 1st but then 2nd grade is down by 270. 4th through 8th are up several hundred, but 6th is flat. 9 the is down the most, 408 kids. But the other high school grades are up-- 12th is up by 685!

It does seem like most of the preschool and lower elementary losses fell on the charter sector. Both sectors gained in upper elementary but in 6th DCPS gained and the charter sector shrank. The opposite for 9th grade, interestingly. So really a mixed bag, hard to make sense of.

PP here - yeah, this is interesting. I think a lot of what's happened is that back in the day, every UMC family just felt like they "needed" a HRCS, so no matter where they lived EOTP or what they actually thought of the specific schools, they put YY, DCB, MV, Stokes, ITDS, TR, Cap City, Haynes, CMI, Breakthrough, and then an Apple Tree and their IB as "backups." And a large number ended up at their IB and were disappointed, and all those folks were sitting on all the charter waitlists, making them so long.

But then, over time, hey, what do you know, it turns out our IB is actually not bad, and people in the neighborhood are now talking to people who are happy at their IB, and meanwhile the one neighbor who got into Cap City has got this long commute and what they have doesn't even sound all that much better? And now parents of younger kids are skipping all the HRCS (except for maybe a couple that are close by and/or have something they really like) and just putting their IB at/near the top of their list. Same number of kids (roughly) at the same schools, but they're not also sitting on the charter school waitlists driving the numbers sky high and feeling like they "lost".

Feels like a lot credit here is due to the unified lottery. When you just had to drive around and drop off a million applications, it feel like regular parenting due diligence, and if you got into an HRCS, you were psyched. Once you had to rank them ahead of time, people started actually evaluating them and realized they weren't worth the hype.

Totally this. But I do think some DCPS have genuinely improved. Stuart-Hobson in particular, and that's having a predictable effect on its feeders.

I think L-T gentrifying drove a lot of the new UMC kids at SH rather than the reverse.

I think it's both, but it only happens if the middle school is perceived to be acceptable or on an improving trajectory.

Stuart Hobson is objectively bad.

Based on increasing enrollment of in-boundary students and the length of their waitlist, it seems that your opinion of Stuart-Hobson is not shared by all.

There is one poster who is constantly posting that SH is not good. There was also a poster (maybe it’s the same person?) who claimed they were a tutor for a bunch of SH kids and that it’s not a good school. I think it’s the same person who is also constantly posting that DCPS has low standards. I kind of wish that Jeff forced handles on this particular forum so we could know. Or at least allow you to see post history for this form.

+1. It's not about silencing them; it's about acknowledging that it's one repeated poster with a huge chip on their shoulder who apparently hasn't had a kid at SH since the PARCC era.

Except not. You are literally calling for the manager because multiple people disagree with you.

Instead of touting your waitlist, which btw doesn’t really speak to school students quality but rather lack of options, why don’t you defend your opinion on Stuart Hobson?

Please defend amplify science. Defend the lack of tracking. Defend the lack of rigor in ELA. Defend the weak math curriculum. What about the lack of extracurriculars? People on Capitol Hill deserve better than Stuart Hobson and screaming for the moderator to silence me (and many others) because we think kids deserve more is not a good look.

NP. I was kind of with you but SH has pretty great extra curriculars. It's actually one of the biggest selling points of the school.

Agree on amplify science and lack of writing, though these are also issues at Deal and Hardy -- it's a DCPS issue. I am still unclear on the state of math at SH. It's clearly gotten better in recent years but it's hard to tell how much. I suspect the next few years will make that more clear, as I do know of several feeder kids with very high math scores who are planning to go. A test for me is if they stay past 6th.

I did a pretty through comparison with other schools (dcps and charter) and found that it had major deficits in the math program (lack of rigor and lack of offerings), science (truly bad but yes this is dcps), ELA (very poor), foreign language, and extracurriculars. I know the theater program was touted for its popularity but that wasn’t important to my kid. Neither were most of the sports offerings. I genuinely found it to be of much worse quality than expected. That’s MY OPINION though and everyone is free to say what they want without attacking other people.

What extracurriculars are you looking for that SH doesn't have that other public DC schools do? It's theater program is superb and award winning. It just got named the best middle school debate program in DC for the 3rd or 4th year in a row. It has a wide variety of sports -- certainly wider than the charters being discussed in this thread. It has a great marching band + orchestra and strings groups. It has a great History Day program. It has an active HOSA group. It has Geoplunge and Mock Trial. It has a choir. It has the 40 book challenge. They're just starting up a branch of Mathcounts (competitive math). It has a ton of lower key student-run clubs too. I understand many of the critiques -- though I don't agree with all of yours fully -- but bad extracurriculars seems extremely off the mark.

Why are you wasting your time arguing with crazy? My kid is not at SH because of academic rigor, but the extracurricular offerings are empirically amazing. Not worth your time fighting with someone so divorced from reality. I truly wish my kids' schools had SH level extracurricular programs.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Wow, charter elementary schools really have plummeted in demand.

For SY 19-20, there were 30 PCS with PK3 waitlists in the double digits (including LAMB even though they weren't in the common lottery, just cause, duh, they had huge waitlists back then).

This year? 13. The seven DCI feeders (DCB, MVP, MVC8, YY, LAMB, Stokes EE, Stokes BL), plus ITDS, Apple Tree Lincoln Park, EL Haynes, LEARN, Lee BL, and TR4.

And triple digit waitlists are basically an endangered species - just five and they're all DCI feeders (DCB, LAMB, Stokes BL, MVC8, YY). Back in SY 19-20 that was 14.

I would say overall, this is a great thing. Kids are getting spots they want. Way fewer kids settling for their 10th, 11th, 12th choice because they're shut out of so many options. Way more IB buy in for a wide variety of schools. This is waaaaay beyond what you'd expect with decreasing birth rates.

I had a PK3 kid in the years of insane waitlists and honestly the whole thing was pretty dumb. So much hype, so much stress, over a bunch of schools that aren't really that different from each other or from DCPS preschool.

There are fewer kids now, so some schools will have to shrink or close. It'll be interesting to see how it shakes out. But I'm so happy the days of waitlist craziness are behind us.

Using the OSSE enrollment audit spreadsheets from the current year and the 23-24 school year, so a two year comparison, it seems like total enrollment is down by 266 kids in PK3, 303 in PK4. Not a big difference in K and 1st but then 2nd grade is down by 270. 4th through 8th are up several hundred, but 6th is flat. 9 the is down the most, 408 kids. But the other high school grades are up-- 12th is up by 685!

It does seem like most of the preschool and lower elementary losses fell on the charter sector. Both sectors gained in upper elementary but in 6th DCPS gained and the charter sector shrank. The opposite for 9th grade, interestingly. So really a mixed bag, hard to make sense of.

PP here - yeah, this is interesting. I think a lot of what's happened is that back in the day, every UMC family just felt like they "needed" a HRCS, so no matter where they lived EOTP or what they actually thought of the specific schools, they put YY, DCB, MV, Stokes, ITDS, TR, Cap City, Haynes, CMI, Breakthrough, and then an Apple Tree and their IB as "backups." And a large number ended up at their IB and were disappointed, and all those folks were sitting on all the charter waitlists, making them so long.

But then, over time, hey, what do you know, it turns out our IB is actually not bad, and people in the neighborhood are now talking to people who are happy at their IB, and meanwhile the one neighbor who got into Cap City has got this long commute and what they have doesn't even sound all that much better? And now parents of younger kids are skipping all the HRCS (except for maybe a couple that are close by and/or have something they really like) and just putting their IB at/near the top of their list. Same number of kids (roughly) at the same schools, but they're not also sitting on the charter school waitlists driving the numbers sky high and feeling like they "lost".

Feels like a lot credit here is due to the unified lottery. When you just had to drive around and drop off a million applications, it feel like regular parenting due diligence, and if you got into an HRCS, you were psyched. Once you had to rank them ahead of time, people started actually evaluating them and realized they weren't worth the hype.

Totally this. But I do think some DCPS have genuinely improved. Stuart-Hobson in particular, and that's having a predictable effect on its feeders.

I think L-T gentrifying drove a lot of the new UMC kids at SH rather than the reverse.

I think it's both, but it only happens if the middle school is perceived to be acceptable or on an improving trajectory.

Stuart Hobson is objectively bad.

Based on increasing enrollment of in-boundary students and the length of their waitlist, it seems that your opinion of Stuart-Hobson is not shared by all.

There is one poster who is constantly posting that SH is not good. There was also a poster (maybe it’s the same person?) who claimed they were a tutor for a bunch of SH kids and that it’s not a good school. I think it’s the same person who is also constantly posting that DCPS has low standards. I kind of wish that Jeff forced handles on this particular forum so we could know. Or at least allow you to see post history for this form.

+1. It's not about silencing them; it's about acknowledging that it's one repeated poster with a huge chip on their shoulder who apparently hasn't had a kid at SH since the PARCC era.

Except not. You are literally calling for the manager because multiple people disagree with you.

Instead of touting your waitlist, which btw doesn’t really speak to school students quality but rather lack of options, why don’t you defend your opinion on Stuart Hobson?

Please defend amplify science. Defend the lack of tracking. Defend the lack of rigor in ELA. Defend the weak math curriculum. What about the lack of extracurriculars? People on Capitol Hill deserve better than Stuart Hobson and screaming for the moderator to silence me (and many others) because we think kids deserve more is not a good look.

NP. I was kind of with you but SH has pretty great extra curriculars. It's actually one of the biggest selling points of the school.

Agree on amplify science and lack of writing, though these are also issues at Deal and Hardy -- it's a DCPS issue. I am still unclear on the state of math at SH. It's clearly gotten better in recent years but it's hard to tell how much. I suspect the next few years will make that more clear, as I do know of several feeder kids with very high math scores who are planning to go. A test for me is if they stay past 6th.

I did a pretty through comparison with other schools (dcps and charter) and found that it had major deficits in the math program (lack of rigor and lack of offerings), science (truly bad but yes this is dcps), ELA (very poor), foreign language, and extracurriculars. I know the theater program was touted for its popularity but that wasn’t important to my kid. Neither were most of the sports offerings. I genuinely found it to be of much worse quality than expected. That’s MY OPINION though and everyone is free to say what they want without attacking other people.

What extracurriculars are you looking for that SH doesn't have that other public DC schools do? It's theater program is superb and award winning. It just got named the best middle school debate program in DC for the 3rd or 4th year in a row. It has a wide variety of sports -- certainly wider than the charters being discussed in this thread. It has a great marching band + orchestra and strings groups. It has a great History Day program. It has an active HOSA group. It has Geoplunge and Mock Trial. It has a choir. It has the 40 book challenge. They're just starting up a branch of Mathcounts (competitive math). It has a ton of lower key student-run clubs too. I understand many of the critiques -- though I don't agree with all of yours fully -- but bad extracurriculars seems extremely off the mark.

+1. We are an EH family but the extracurriculars at SH are solid - less so at EH but the plus at EH is easier access. And I think the huge motivation for many is that these are neighborhood schools - we want that for our kids, to be walkable and independent.

This is accurate. There's also some self-selection. SH is well known for its drama and music programs, so kids targeting Duke Ellington often fit better there. However EH has some other niche EC programming, like a strong cross country team, that would be a draw for a specific kid. I think the schools are pretty comparable in terms of academics despite SH's stronger reputation (if you compare scores and offerings 1:1, they are indistinguishable), so if a family is trying to decide between them, it's mostly a question of vibe and whether your kid cares about the specific programming. Neither school is considered stellar, but might be okay places for well-supported, self motivated students to spend MS assuming better options for HS (the biggest drawback of both schools is the Eastern feed).

FACTS! SH sent more kids to Duke Ellington than any other school

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:UMC parents who can pay for private are at better odds to try SH or EH knowing that if Walls doesn't pan out, they can send their kid to private high school school. I think a lot of the BASIS/Latin boosters from the Hill are people who cannot pay for private and want to secure the path to 12th grade without the stress of trying to get into Walls and know that Eastern isn't going to cut it.

But aren't the odds of getting into a private HS fairly low? So even if the UMC family can afford private for HS, their kid still has to get in.