Church attendance continues to plummet

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:IMO, there are a few reasons:

1. people are more educated and don't believe in some of the archaic teachings
2. people are turned off by the religiousity and/or politicizing of God's teachings
3. people may want to connect with a group but not with a group that they have not much in common with -- see #1 and #2
4. people have better things to do on Sundays

-long time church goer who stopped going due to all the above

Sounds like you don't believe in organized religion, but still believe in god. I wonder if there's a way to express god-belief with a like minded group, or if it's even needed.

It's called Deism, it has "existed since ancient times, but it did not develop as a religio-philosophical movement until after the Scientific Revolution"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism

BTW there is no evidence for this unfalsifiable belief either.

There's no evidence for any of it. That's why it's called faith and why so many people experience feelings of losing their faith. Sometimes they regain it; sometimes they don't.

And sometimes people find faith when they didn’t have it before.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Add Scouting to that list - those numbers have plummeted as well. Even the local chamber of commerce and things like that. Anything that has a non-competitive community aspect seems to be dying. And it's those things that are most critical to knitting together the fabric of society.

Could you think of any possible reason for that?

Not the PP, but I've had experience with scouting and was really put off by the vibe - it was overwhelmingly white, conservative, and Christian, and felt like stepping back in time to the 70's - but not the good 70's. It was like it hadn't changed changed since I was a kid, but kids and parents (at least most of them) have changed. Most of the kids there didn't seem to be enjoying themselves, and were being forced by their parents, who seemed to think Eagle Scout would be good on a college application, or that boyscouts was teaching their kid some kind of values (which as far as I could see, it was not).

Yes. I had to work with some Scout members and parents in a former job, specifically with their Eagle Scout projects. The whole thing seemed to be for the parents and their Eagle Scout projects seemed really pointless. I was surprised at how corny and yes, 1950s it was. However, this was in CA so there were plenty of Latino and Asian families participating in it. But it seemed dated and irrelevant.

LOL. It's mostly white but many Latino and Asian. Obviously not reflective of anything other than the adults who run it with the kids. The DC area scouts are booming.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:IMO, there are a few reasons:

1. people are more educated and don't believe in some of the archaic teachings
2. people are turned off by the religiousity and/or politicizing of God's teachings
3. people may want to connect with a group but not with a group that they have not much in common with -- see #1 and #2
4. people have better things to do on Sundays

-long time church goer who stopped going due to all the above

Sounds like you don't believe in organized religion, but still believe in god. I wonder if there's a way to express god-belief with a like minded group, or if it's even needed.

It's called Deism, it has "existed since ancient times, but it did not develop as a religio-philosophical movement until after the Scientific Revolution"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism

BTW there is no evidence for this unfalsifiable belief either.

There's no evidence for any of it. That's why it's called faith and why so many people experience feelings of losing their faith. Sometimes they regain it; sometimes they don't.

And sometimes people find faith when they didn’t have it before.

Yes, and in today's society, people who newly find faith are supported in it, in a way that people who become non-religious are not. "Faith communities" abound, whereas non-faith communities do not.

Also, finding faith often happens quickly, like a bolt from the blue. Suddenly you just "know" there's a god, and/or "find Jesus." In contrast, becoming nonreligious is often a slow, solitary, intellectual process.

Then there are people who are inculcated with religion as children. Fewer people have been raised without religion, although that is changing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"What are your thoughts?"

My thoughts are that it's not exclusive to religious participation. Americans are leading increasingly lonely and isolated lives. They're not just not attending church, they're pulling back from Ruritans, ladies clubs, book groups, bowling leagues, golf leagues, yacht clubs, country clubs, DAR, union halls, VFW clubs and events, hunting clubs...

There is basically one exception. Those of us who have minor children and sufficient financial means spend a lot of our time driving and watching our kids play soccer or practice dance routines.

Pretty much anything that was once a staple of American working and middle class community life is struggling for membership or dying. Never before in the history of humankind have so many people been living alone. It's an enormous mental health problem that's rapidly worsening. So we spend a lot of time online in silo'd groups getting fed algorithms that are scientifically designed to make us angrier about whatever we're inclined to be angry about.

DCUM will love to snicker at the idea of churches declining. For our family, ours is a major source of community, friendship, service work, youth activities and friends, and so on.

Spot on.
Add Scouting to that list - those numbers have plummeted as well. Even the local chamber of commerce and things like that. Anything that has a non-competitive community aspect seems to be dying. And it's those things that are most critical to knitting together the fabric of society.

Could you think of any possible reason for that?

Not the PP, but I've had experience with scouting and was really put off by the vibe - it was overwhelmingly white, conservative, and Christian, and felt like stepping back in time to the 70's - but not the good 70's. It was like it hadn't changed changed since I was a kid, but kids and parents (at least most of them) have changed. Most of the kids there didn't seem to be enjoying themselves, and were being forced by their parents, who seemed to think Eagle Scout would be good on a college application, or that boyscouts was teaching their kid some kind of values (which as far as I could see, it was not).

Eagle Scout does look good on a college application (particularly to service academies which I imagine that milieu values highly)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:IMO, there are a few reasons:

1. people are more educated and don't believe in some of the archaic teachings
2. people are turned off by the religiousity and/or politicizing of God's teachings
3. people may want to connect with a group but not with a group that they have not much in common with -- see #1 and #2
4. people have better things to do on Sundays

-long time church goer who stopped going due to all the above

Sounds like you don't believe in organized religion, but still believe in god. I wonder if there's a way to express god-belief with a like minded group, or if it's even needed.

It's called Deism, it has "existed since ancient times, but it did not develop as a religio-philosophical movement until after the Scientific Revolution"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism

BTW there is no evidence for this unfalsifiable belief either.

There's no evidence for any of it. That's why it's called faith and why so many people experience feelings of losing their faith. Sometimes they regain it; sometimes they don't.

And sometimes people find faith when they didn’t have it before.

"Faith communities" abound, whereas non-faith communities do not.

That's not specific to faith communities, though.

"Fitness communities" abound, whereas non-faith communities do not.
"Vegan communities" abound, whereas non-vegan communities do not.
"Education communities"(colleges) abound, whereas non-education communities do not.
"Magic: The Gathering communities" abound, whereas non-Magic: The Gathering communities do not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:IMO, there are a few reasons:

1. people are more educated and don't believe in some of the archaic teachings
2. people are turned off by the religiousity and/or politicizing of God's teachings
3. people may want to connect with a group but not with a group that they have not much in common with -- see #1 and #2
4. people have better things to do on Sundays

-long time church goer who stopped going due to all the above

Sounds like you don't believe in organized religion, but still believe in god. I wonder if there's a way to express god-belief with a like minded group, or if it's even needed.

It's called Deism, it has "existed since ancient times, but it did not develop as a religio-philosophical movement until after the Scientific Revolution"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism

BTW there is no evidence for this unfalsifiable belief either.

There's no evidence for any of it. That's why it's called faith and why so many people experience feelings of losing their faith. Sometimes they regain it; sometimes they don't.

If I may beg to differ, at least some people of faith see the existence of God (higher power, divine intelligence, unifying force or what have you) all around them. “The Heavens proclaim the glory of God, and the earth proclaims his handiwork; day unto day sings out his presence and night unto night his praise.” The organized nature of what can be perceived in the universe is foundational to at least some of Aquinas’s proofs of God. Belief still requires faith but it can make use of reason to get there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:IMO, there are a few reasons:

1. people are more educated and don't believe in some of the archaic teachings
2. people are turned off by the religiousity and/or politicizing of God's teachings
3. people may want to connect with a group but not with a group that they have not much in common with -- see #1 and #2
4. people have better things to do on Sundays

-long time church goer who stopped going due to all the above

Sounds like you don't believe in organized religion, but still believe in god. I wonder if there's a way to express god-belief with a like minded group, or if it's even needed.

It's called Deism, it has "existed since ancient times, but it did not develop as a religio-philosophical movement until after the Scientific Revolution"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism

BTW there is no evidence for this unfalsifiable belief either.

There's no evidence for any of it. That's why it's called faith and why so many people experience feelings of losing their faith. Sometimes they regain it; sometimes they don't.

If I may beg to differ, at least some people of faith see the existence of God (higher power, divine intelligence, unifying force or what have you) all around them. “The Heavens proclaim the glory of God, and the earth proclaims his handiwork; day unto day sings out his presence and night unto night his praise.” The organized nature of what can be perceived in the universe is foundational to at least some of Aquinas’s proofs of God. Belief still requires faith but it can make use of reason to get there.

Sure - OK to differ, especially in a free country like the US. Some people believe it and others don't. Quoting the Bible doesn't make a difference to people who don't believe in it. Same for Aquinas's proofs of God and the concept of using reason to get to faith.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:IMO, there are a few reasons:

1. people are more educated and don't believe in some of the archaic teachings
2. people are turned off by the religiousity and/or politicizing of God's teachings
3. people may want to connect with a group but not with a group that they have not much in common with -- see #1 and #2
4. people have better things to do on Sundays

-long time church goer who stopped going due to all the above

Sounds like you don't believe in organized religion, but still believe in god. I wonder if there's a way to express god-belief with a like minded group, or if it's even needed.

It's called Deism, it has "existed since ancient times, but it did not develop as a religio-philosophical movement until after the Scientific Revolution"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism

BTW there is no evidence for this unfalsifiable belief either.

There's no evidence for any of it. That's why it's called faith and why so many people experience feelings of losing their faith. Sometimes they regain it; sometimes they don't.

If I may beg to differ, at least some people of faith see the existence of God (higher power, divine intelligence, unifying force or what have you) all around them. “The Heavens proclaim the glory of God, and the earth proclaims his handiwork; day unto day sings out his presence and night unto night his praise.” The organized nature of what can be perceived in the universe is foundational to at least some of Aquinas’s proofs of God. Belief still requires faith but it can make use of reason to get there.

The universe is in fact a chaotic and disorganized place. If it is fine tuned for anything, as Stephen Hawking is supposed to have said, it is fine tuned for black holes.

All "reason" based cosmological arguments for god presuppose his existence, including Aquinas'.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Add Scouting to that list - those numbers have plummeted as well. Even the local chamber of commerce and things like that. Anything that has a non-competitive community aspect seems to be dying. And it's those things that are most critical to knitting together the fabric of society.

Could you think of any possible reason for that?

Not the PP, but I've had experience with scouting and was really put off by the vibe - it was overwhelmingly white, conservative, and Christian, and felt like stepping back in time to the 70's - but not the good 70's. It was like it hadn't changed changed since I was a kid, but kids and parents (at least most of them) have changed. Most of the kids there didn't seem to be enjoying themselves, and were being forced by their parents, who seemed to think Eagle Scout would be good on a college application, or that boyscouts was teaching their kid some kind of values (which as far as I could see, it was not).

Yes. I had to work with some Scout members and parents in a former job, specifically with their Eagle Scout projects. The whole thing seemed to be for the parents and their Eagle Scout projects seemed really pointless. I was surprised at how corny and yes, 1950s it was. However, this was in CA so there were plenty of Latino and Asian families participating in it. But it seemed dated and irrelevant.

LOL. It's mostly white but many Latino and Asian. Obviously not reflective of anything other than the adults who run it with the kids. The DC area scouts are booming.

Scouting numbers plummeted because the Morman church left

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2018/05/09/609697466/mormon-church-will-sever-ties-with-boy-scouts-create-own-youth-program

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:IMO, there are a few reasons:

1. people are more educated and don't believe in some of the archaic teachings
2. people are turned off by the religiousity and/or politicizing of God's teachings
3. people may want to connect with a group but not with a group that they have not much in common with -- see #1 and #2
4. people have better things to do on Sundays

-long time church goer who stopped going due to all the above

Sounds like you don't believe in organized religion, but still believe in god. I wonder if there's a way to express god-belief with a like minded group, or if it's even needed.

It's called Deism, it has "existed since ancient times, but it did not develop as a religio-philosophical movement until after the Scientific Revolution"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism

BTW there is no evidence for this unfalsifiable belief either.

There's no evidence for any of it. That's why it's called faith and why so many people experience feelings of losing their faith. Sometimes they regain it; sometimes they don't.

If I may beg to differ, at least some people of faith see the existence of God (higher power, divine intelligence, unifying force or what have you) all around them. “The Heavens proclaim the glory of God, and the earth proclaims his handiwork; day unto day sings out his presence and night unto night his praise.” The organized nature of what can be perceived in the universe is foundational to at least some of Aquinas’s proofs of God. Belief still requires faith but it can make use of reason to get there.

The universe is in fact a chaotic and disorganized place. If it is fine tuned for anything, as Stephen Hawking is supposed to have said, it is fine tuned for black holes.

All "reason" based cosmological arguments for god presuppose his existence, including Aquinas'.

So, you haven’t read him then.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:IMO, there are a few reasons:

1. people are more educated and don't believe in some of the archaic teachings
2. people are turned off by the religiousity and/or politicizing of God's teachings
3. people may want to connect with a group but not with a group that they have not much in common with -- see #1 and #2
4. people have better things to do on Sundays

-long time church goer who stopped going due to all the above

Sounds like you don't believe in organized religion, but still believe in god. I wonder if there's a way to express god-belief with a like minded group, or if it's even needed.

It's called Deism, it has "existed since ancient times, but it did not develop as a religio-philosophical movement until after the Scientific Revolution"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism

BTW there is no evidence for this unfalsifiable belief either.

There's no evidence for any of it. That's why it's called faith and why so many people experience feelings of losing their faith. Sometimes they regain it; sometimes they don't.

If I may beg to differ, at least some people of faith see the existence of God (higher power, divine intelligence, unifying force or what have you) all around them. “The Heavens proclaim the glory of God, and the earth proclaims his handiwork; day unto day sings out his presence and night unto night his praise.” The organized nature of what can be perceived in the universe is foundational to at least some of Aquinas’s proofs of God. Belief still requires faith but it can make use of reason to get there.

The universe is in fact a chaotic and disorganized place. If it is fine tuned for anything, as Stephen Hawking is supposed to have said, it is fine tuned for black holes.

All "reason" based cosmological arguments for god presuppose his existence, including Aquinas'.

So, you haven’t read him then.

Sigh. Must we do this?

1. The Argument from Motion: Our senses can perceive motion by seeing that things act on one another. Whatever moves is moved by something else. Consequently, there must be a First Mover that creates this chain reaction of motions. This is God. God sets all things in motion and gives them their potential.

2. The Argument from Efficient Cause: Because nothing can cause itself, everything must have a cause or something that creates an effect on another thing. Without a first cause, there would be no others. Therefore, the First Cause is God.

3. The Argument from Necessary Being: Because objects in the world come into existence and pass out of it, it is possible for those objects to exist or not exist at any particular time. However, nothing can come from nothing. This means something must exist at all times. This is God.

4. The Argument from Gradation: There are different degrees of goodness in different things. Following the “Great Chain of Being,” which states there is a gradual increase in complexity, created objects move from unformed inorganic matter to biologically complex organisms. Therefore, there must be a being of the highest form of good. This perfect being is God.

5. The Argument from Design: All things have an order or arrangement that leads them to a particular goal. Because the order of the universe cannot be the result of chance, design and purpose must be at work. This implies divine intelligence on the part of the designer. This is God.

Everything in bold is a presupposition. Not one thing proves god exists, or even attempts to.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:IMO, there are a few reasons:

1. people are more educated and don't believe in some of the archaic teachings
2. people are turned off by the religiousity and/or politicizing of God's teachings
3. people may want to connect with a group but not with a group that they have not much in common with -- see #1 and #2
4. people have better things to do on Sundays

-long time church goer who stopped going due to all the above

Sounds like you don't believe in organized religion, but still believe in god. I wonder if there's a way to express god-belief with a like minded group, or if it's even needed.

It's called Deism, it has "existed since ancient times, but it did not develop as a religio-philosophical movement until after the Scientific Revolution"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism

BTW there is no evidence for this unfalsifiable belief either.

There's no evidence for any of it. That's why it's called faith and why so many people experience feelings of losing their faith. Sometimes they regain it; sometimes they don't.

If I may beg to differ, at least some people of faith see the existence of God (higher power, divine intelligence, unifying force or what have you) all around them. “The Heavens proclaim the glory of God, and the earth proclaims his handiwork; day unto day sings out his presence and night unto night his praise.” The organized nature of what can be perceived in the universe is foundational to at least some of Aquinas’s proofs of God. Belief still requires faith but it can make use of reason to get there.

The universe is in fact a chaotic and disorganized place. If it is fine tuned for anything, as Stephen Hawking is supposed to have said, it is fine tuned for black holes.

All "reason" based cosmological arguments for god presuppose his existence, including Aquinas'.

So, you haven’t read him then.

Sigh. Must we do this?

1. The Argument from Motion: Our senses can perceive motion by seeing that things act on one another. Whatever moves is moved by something else. Consequently, there must be a First Mover that creates this chain reaction of motions. This is God. God sets all things in motion and gives them their potential.

2. The Argument from Efficient Cause: Because nothing can cause itself, everything must have a cause or something that creates an effect on another thing. Without a first cause, there would be no others. Therefore, the First Cause is God.

3. The Argument from Necessary Being: Because objects in the world come into existence and pass out of it, it is possible for those objects to exist or not exist at any particular time. However, nothing can come from nothing. This means something must exist at all times. This is God.

4. The Argument from Gradation: There are different degrees of goodness in different things. Following the “Great Chain of Being,” which states there is a gradual increase in complexity, created objects move from unformed inorganic matter to biologically complex organisms. Therefore, there must be a being of the highest form of good. This perfect being is God.

5. The Argument from Design: All things have an order or arrangement that leads them to a particular goal. Because the order of the universe cannot be the result of chance, design and purpose must be at work. This implies divine intelligence on the part of the designer. This is God.

Everything in bold is a presupposition. Not one thing proves god exists, or even attempts to.

Well! I am truly impressed! Great job.

Nonetheless, I must observe that you seem to misidentified what you label as “presuppositions;”

1. The “presupposition” here is that things don’t move by themselves but rather are set in motion by something else.

2. The “presupposition” is that things don’t happen by themselves.

3. The “presupposition” is that nothing can come from nothing.

4. The “presupposition” is that all things have an order/the universe cannot have occurred by chance.

“God” is a label Aquinas proposes for the “Prime Mover;” “First Cause;” Necessary Being;” Highest Form of Good;”and “Divine Intelligence” — the “something” that fills all these roles. I am sure you will disagree but I can’t say that I don’t find his “presuppositions” unpersuasive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:IMO, there are a few reasons:

1. people are more educated and don't believe in some of the archaic teachings
2. people are turned off by the religiousity and/or politicizing of God's teachings
3. people may want to connect with a group but not with a group that they have not much in common with -- see #1 and #2
4. people have better things to do on Sundays

-long time church goer who stopped going due to all the above

Sounds like you don't believe in organized religion, but still believe in god. I wonder if there's a way to express god-belief with a like minded group, or if it's even needed.

It's called Deism, it has "existed since ancient times, but it did not develop as a religio-philosophical movement until after the Scientific Revolution"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism

BTW there is no evidence for this unfalsifiable belief either.

There's no evidence for any of it. That's why it's called faith and why so many people experience feelings of losing their faith. Sometimes they regain it; sometimes they don't.

If I may beg to differ, at least some people of faith see the existence of God (higher power, divine intelligence, unifying force or what have you) all around them. “The Heavens proclaim the glory of God, and the earth proclaims his handiwork; day unto day sings out his presence and night unto night his praise.” The organized nature of what can be perceived in the universe is foundational to at least some of Aquinas’s proofs of God. Belief still requires faith but it can make use of reason to get there.

Sure - OK to differ, especially in a free country like the US. Some people believe it and others don't. Quoting the Bible doesn't make a difference to people who don't believe in it. Same for Aquinas's proofs of God and the concept of using reason to get to faith.

The quotation is not offered as a “proof text,” but as the Psalmist’s expression of his conclusion that God can be discerned from nature.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:IMO, there are a few reasons:

1. people are more educated and don't believe in some of the archaic teachings
2. people are turned off by the religiousity and/or politicizing of God's teachings
3. people may want to connect with a group but not with a group that they have not much in common with -- see #1 and #2
4. people have better things to do on Sundays

-long time church goer who stopped going due to all the above

Sounds like you don't believe in organized religion, but still believe in god. I wonder if there's a way to express god-belief with a like minded group, or if it's even needed.

It's called Deism, it has "existed since ancient times, but it did not develop as a religio-philosophical movement until after the Scientific Revolution"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism

BTW there is no evidence for this unfalsifiable belief either.

There's no evidence for any of it. That's why it's called faith and why so many people experience feelings of losing their faith. Sometimes they regain it; sometimes they don't.

If I may beg to differ, at least some people of faith see the existence of God (higher power, divine intelligence, unifying force or what have you) all around them. “The Heavens proclaim the glory of God, and the earth proclaims his handiwork; day unto day sings out his presence and night unto night his praise.” The organized nature of what can be perceived in the universe is foundational to at least some of Aquinas’s proofs of God. Belief still requires faith but it can make use of reason to get there.

The universe is in fact a chaotic and disorganized place. If it is fine tuned for anything, as Stephen Hawking is supposed to have said, it is fine tuned for black holes.

All "reason" based cosmological arguments for god presuppose his existence, including Aquinas'.

So, you haven’t read him then.

Sigh. Must we do this?

1. The Argument from Motion: Our senses can perceive motion by seeing that things act on one another. Whatever moves is moved by something else. Consequently, there must be a First Mover that creates this chain reaction of motions. This is God. God sets all things in motion and gives them their potential.

2. The Argument from Efficient Cause: Because nothing can cause itself, everything must have a cause or something that creates an effect on another thing. Without a first cause, there would be no others. Therefore, the First Cause is God.

3. The Argument from Necessary Being: Because objects in the world come into existence and pass out of it, it is possible for those objects to exist or not exist at any particular time. However, nothing can come from nothing. This means something must exist at all times. This is God.

4. The Argument from Gradation: There are different degrees of goodness in different things. Following the “Great Chain of Being,” which states there is a gradual increase in complexity, created objects move from unformed inorganic matter to biologically complex organisms. Therefore, there must be a being of the highest form of good. This perfect being is God.

5. The Argument from Design: All things have an order or arrangement that leads them to a particular goal. Because the order of the universe cannot be the result of chance, design and purpose must be at work. This implies divine intelligence on the part of the designer. This is God.

Everything in bold is a presupposition. Not one thing proves god exists, or even attempts to.

Well! I am truly impressed! Great job.

Nonetheless, I must observe that you seem to misidentified what you label as “presuppositions;”

1. The “presupposition” here is that things don’t move by themselves but rather are set in motion by something else.

2. The “presupposition” is that things don’t happen by themselves.

3. The “presupposition” is that nothing can come from nothing.

4. The “presupposition” is that all things have an order/the universe cannot have occurred by chance.

“God” is a label Aquinas proposes for the “Prime Mover;” “First Cause;” Necessary Being;” Highest Form of Good;”and “Divine Intelligence” — the “something” that fills all these roles. I am sure you will disagree but I can’t say that I don’t find his “presuppositions” unpersuasive.

Thanks for your compliment.

But, no, since god is simply inserted into those premises as the conclusion, they presuppose the existence of god.

Here's proof: you could insert any noun, real or imaginary, in the place of god in those paragraphs and they would not be any more or less convincing as they wouldn't present any more or less evidence. Thor, a dinosaur, Elvis, mashed potatoes, farts from the multiverse slipping through a slit, anything.

"But no" you will respond. "it can't be those things because it has to be god, because..."

...and there you have it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:IMO, there are a few reasons:

1. people are more educated and don't believe in some of the archaic teachings
2. people are turned off by the religiousity and/or politicizing of God's teachings
3. people may want to connect with a group but not with a group that they have not much in common with -- see #1 and #2
4. people have better things to do on Sundays

-long time church goer who stopped going due to all the above

Sounds like you don't believe in organized religion, but still believe in god. I wonder if there's a way to express god-belief with a like minded group, or if it's even needed.

It's called Deism, it has "existed since ancient times, but it did not develop as a religio-philosophical movement until after the Scientific Revolution"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism

BTW there is no evidence for this unfalsifiable belief either.

There's no evidence for any of it. That's why it's called faith and why so many people experience feelings of losing their faith. Sometimes they regain it; sometimes they don't.

And sometimes people find faith when they didn’t have it before.

"Faith communities" abound, whereas non-faith communities do not.

That's not specific to faith communities, though.

"Fitness communities" abound, whereas non-faith communities do not.
"Vegan communities" abound, whereas non-vegan communities do not.
"Education communities"(colleges) abound, whereas non-education communities do not.
"Magic: The Gathering communities" abound, whereas non-Magic: The Gathering communities do not.

Fascinating -- These "non-communities" make up the majority of people. They are so common that they aren't even thought of as communities. This is quite different from the large US "religious community", in which the majority of people are nominally religious -- at least for now.