Church attendance continues to plummet

[Anonymous]

People go back to church when they have a family. They want their children to go to church. At least many parents think they want this and try it out. But churches are a mess. Churches need reliable, high-quality childcare -- not a patch-work of volunteers whom they beg to fill-in. Churches need a solid youth program, ministry/Sunday school. Again, not a patch-work of volunteers with no consistency. And the greatest budget resources should be going to the youth programs --including pay, rather than ministering to adults.

Work from the ground up. Have the very best youth programs and you will keep the parents.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.npr.org/2023/05/17/1175452002/church-closings-religious-affiliation

Wow - "Just 16% of Americans say religion is the most important thing in their life, according to a new report released this week by the Public Religion Research Institute.".

"The sharp uptick in the number of younger Americans with no religious affiliation — a group known as the "nones" — is the major driver in a seismic shift in the religious landscape, says Ryan Burge, a political science professor at Eastern Illinois University and author of The Nones: Where They Came From, Who They Are, and Where They Are Going."

What are your thoughts?

Not surprising. I am a 51 year old lapsed Catholic. I would like to go back to church, but there's simply so much history and issues continuing in the present day that make it hard for me to do so. And much harder to explain to my children why it's imperative that we attend Mass every Sunday when in truth I am pro-choice, don't believe the arguments in favor of natural family planning, support women being priests, and don't think the Catholic church has done near enough to address its historical abuses. To keep family peace and tradition both of my kids will be confirmed and then I feel pretty much done. I may explore another denomination.

To keep family peace with whom? Your parents? Certainly not your kids! They will be making commitments that they know their parent doesn't believe in and that they may not believe in either. Considering that confirmation is about making an adult commitment to the church, it seems like it would make sense to ask your kids if they want to be confirmed, instead of insisting that they do something you don't believe in yourself, "to keep family peace." It's like you're teaching them to be hypocritical.

NP, I was confirmed because my parents made me, and so was every other kid in my school. It was never a choice for anyone, and everyone knew it. I still remember wondering what planet the priest lived on while he was droning on and on about how we were freely choosing this religion on this momentous occasion. It was and has always been a hypocritical ritual.

My parents didn't make me. I was happy to get confirmed -- but disappointed in the process - not very meaningful at all, just more memorization, like first holy communion. I stopped going to church once in college.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.npr.org/2023/05/17/1175452002/church-closings-religious-affiliation

Wow - "Just 16% of Americans say religion is the most important thing in their life, according to a new report released this week by the Public Religion Research Institute.".

"The sharp uptick in the number of younger Americans with no religious affiliation — a group known as the "nones" — is the major driver in a seismic shift in the religious landscape, says Ryan Burge, a political science professor at Eastern Illinois University and author of The Nones: Where They Came From, Who They Are, and Where They Are Going."

What are your thoughts?

Not surprising. I am a 51 year old lapsed Catholic. I would like to go back to church, but there's simply so much history and issues continuing in the present day that make it hard for me to do so. And much harder to explain to my children why it's imperative that we attend Mass every Sunday when in truth I am pro-choice, don't believe the arguments in favor of natural family planning, support women being priests, and don't think the Catholic church has done near enough to address its historical abuses. To keep family peace and tradition both of my kids will be confirmed and then I feel pretty much done. I may explore another denomination.

To keep family peace with whom? Your parents? Certainly not your kids! They will be making commitments that they know their parent doesn't believe in and that they may not believe in either. Considering that confirmation is about making an adult commitment to the church, it seems like it would make sense to ask your kids if they want to be confirmed, instead of insisting that they do something you don't believe in yourself, "to keep family peace." It's like you're teaching them to be hypocritical.

NP, I was confirmed because my parents made me, and so was every other kid in my school. It was never a choice for anyone, and everyone knew it. I still remember wondering what planet the priest lived on while he was droning on and on about how we were freely choosing this religion on this momentous occasion. It was and has always been a hypocritical ritual.

My parents didn't make me. I was happy to get confirmed -- but disappointed in the process - not very meaningful at all, just more memorization, like first holy communion. I stopped going to church once in college.

There is an inherent tension in Church training programs/sacramental preparation. On one hand, the students prefer it to be meaningful to someone at their level of age and experience, and this often militates in favor of more relationship-focused activities and sometimes some basic spiritual exercises. On the other hand, children become adults, and it is important for them to be prepared to meet adult challenges they may not encounter for some time. My own training was very “memorization” based, but I found it very useful as I grew up. In one instance in particular, somebody asked me what a sacrament was and the textbook definition sprang instantly to mind without my even thinking about it. I think that my generation could have used a little more “meaning,” but I think the present day could use a lot more substance.

It’s also important to remember that the preparation classes, CCD, religion class in parochial school, etc., are not supposed to be all there is. The home is the “domestic church” and parents are their children’s first teachers. They may need to count on others for organized instruction on more complex subjects, but ideally it is the home where people first and most effectively see Christianity and a loving relationship with God modeled in daily life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"What are your thoughts?"

My thoughts are that it's not exclusive to religious participation. Americans are leading increasingly lonely and isolated lives. They're not just not attending church, they're pulling back from Ruritans, ladies clubs, book groups, bowling leagues, golf leagues, yacht clubs, country clubs, DAR, union halls, VFW clubs and events, hunting clubs...

There is basically one exception. Those of us who have minor children and sufficient financial means spend a lot of our time driving and watching our kids play soccer or practice dance routines.

Pretty much anything that was once a staple of American working and middle class community life is struggling for membership or dying. Never before in the history of humankind have so many people been living alone. It's an enormous mental health problem that's rapidly worsening. So we spend a lot of time online in silo'd groups getting fed algorithms that are scientifically designed to make us angrier about whatever we're inclined to be angry about.

DCUM will love to snicker at the idea of churches declining. For our family, ours is a major source of community, friendship, service work, youth activities and friends, and so on.

Spot on.
Add Scouting to that list - those numbers have plummeted as well. Even the local chamber of commerce and things like that. Anything that has a non-competitive community aspect seems to be dying. And it's those things that are most critical to knitting together the fabric of society.

Could you think of any possible reason for that?

Not the PP, but I've had experience with scouting and was really put off by the vibe - it was overwhelmingly white, conservative, and Christian, and felt like stepping back in time to the 70's - but not the good 70's. It was like it hadn't changed changed since I was a kid, but kids and parents (at least most of them) have changed. Most of the kids there didn't seem to be enjoying themselves, and were being forced by their parents, who seemed to think Eagle Scout would be good on a college application, or that boyscouts was teaching their kid some kind of values (which as far as I could see, it was not).

PP here. I made a failed arch point about the Boy Scouts history of decades of sexual abuse, which resulted in the largest sexual abuse settlement in US history.

https://www.reuters.com/legal/judge-affirms-boy-scouts-americas-246-bln-sex-abuse-settlement-2023-03-28/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:People go back to church when they have a family. They want their children to go to church. At least many parents think they want this and try it out. But churches are a mess. Churches need reliable, high-quality childcare -- not a patch-work of volunteers whom they beg to fill-in. Churches need a solid youth program, ministry/Sunday school. Again, not a patch-work of volunteers with no consistency. And the greatest budget resources should be going to the youth programs --including pay, rather than ministering to adults.

Work from the ground up. Have the very best youth programs and you will keep the parents.

This takes a lot of investment from the clergy, board, and old regulars. You have to develop a culture of excitement and ease around families being there. It has to be easy and reliable, as you said, for families to make the decision to go. And then the clergy and the old regulars need to not glare at kids when they make noise in the service. If you want your house of worship to survive beyond your time there, you need the families and the noise that goes with them, and you need to treat them like a blessing, rather than an annoyance, or the families will feel like they're imposing and leave.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.npr.org/2023/05/17/1175452002/church-closings-religious-affiliation

Wow - "Just 16% of Americans say religion is the most important thing in their life, according to a new report released this week by the Public Religion Research Institute.".

"The sharp uptick in the number of younger Americans with no religious affiliation — a group known as the "nones" — is the major driver in a seismic shift in the religious landscape, says Ryan Burge, a political science professor at Eastern Illinois University and author of The Nones: Where They Came From, Who They Are, and Where They Are Going."

What are your thoughts?

Not surprising. I am a 51 year old lapsed Catholic. I would like to go back to church, but there's simply so much history and issues continuing in the present day that make it hard for me to do so. And much harder to explain to my children why it's imperative that we attend Mass every Sunday when in truth I am pro-choice, don't believe the arguments in favor of natural family planning, support women being priests, and don't think the Catholic church has done near enough to address its historical abuses. To keep family peace and tradition both of my kids will be confirmed and then I feel pretty much done. I may explore another denomination.

To keep family peace with whom? Your parents? Certainly not your kids! They will be making commitments that they know their parent doesn't believe in and that they may not believe in either. Considering that confirmation is about making an adult commitment to the church, it seems like it would make sense to ask your kids if they want to be confirmed, instead of insisting that they do something you don't believe in yourself, "to keep family peace." It's like you're teaching them to be hypocritical.

That was my post and I understand the criticism and can't really say that it's totally unfair. Our kids are aware of our viewpoint that we want them to have a foundational exposure to religion so that they will have a comparison if they ever want to return to the church or to explore another denomination. And that it's traditional in our family and extended family to be confirmed.

My reasons for not being faithful are complicated and have developed over my lifetime. I'm also not out of step with many other people who call themselves Catholic but who are still attending Mass, etc. I believe my spouse, who was also raised Catholic and was confirmed, is in a similar place with some similar reasons.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Church attendance globally is rising and increasing. Atheists/agnostics/others are expected to decline because they don’t get married and have children. Religious people have kids.

Atheists don’t get married and have children?

Guffawing here.

Yea, that's silly.

Most Christians I know have two children. I even know some Catholics who have only two children.

Mormons and southern Evangelicals are a different breed.

[Anonymous]

IMO, there are a few reasons:

1. people are more educated and don't believe in some of the archaic teachings
2. people are turned off by the religiousity and/or politicizing of God's teachings
3. people may want to connect with a group but not with a group that they have not much in common with -- see #1 and #2
4. people have better things to do on Sundays

-long time church goer who stopped going due to all the above

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.npr.org/2023/05/17/1175452002/church-closings-religious-affiliation

Wow - "Just 16% of Americans say religion is the most important thing in their life, according to a new report released this week by the Public Religion Research Institute.".

"The sharp uptick in the number of younger Americans with no religious affiliation — a group known as the "nones" — is the major driver in a seismic shift in the religious landscape, says Ryan Burge, a political science professor at Eastern Illinois University and author of The Nones: Where They Came From, Who They Are, and Where They Are Going."

What are your thoughts?

Not surprising. I am a 51 year old lapsed Catholic. I would like to go back to church, but there's simply so much history and issues continuing in the present day that make it hard for me to do so. And much harder to explain to my children why it's imperative that we attend Mass every Sunday when in truth I am pro-choice, don't believe the arguments in favor of natural family planning, support women being priests, and don't think the Catholic church has done near enough to address its historical abuses. To keep family peace and tradition both of my kids will be confirmed and then I feel pretty much done. I may explore another denomination.

To keep family peace with whom? Your parents? Certainly not your kids! They will be making commitments that they know their parent doesn't believe in and that they may not believe in either. Considering that confirmation is about making an adult commitment to the church, it seems like it would make sense to ask your kids if they want to be confirmed, instead of insisting that they do something you don't believe in yourself, "to keep family peace." It's like you're teaching them to be hypocritical.

That was my post and I understand the criticism and can't really say that it's totally unfair. Our kids are aware of our viewpoint that we want them to have a foundational exposure to religion so that they will have a comparison if they ever want to return to the church or to explore another denomination. And that it's traditional in our family and extended family to be confirmed.

My reasons for not being faithful are complicated and have developed over my lifetime. I'm also not out of step with many other people who call themselves Catholic but who are still attending Mass, etc. I believe my spouse, who was also raised Catholic and was confirmed, is in a similar place with some similar reasons.

Well, as long as the kids are willing.... I hope it doesn't backfire and one or both of them end up hating Catholicism and/or hating you for forcing them to participate in something you don't believe in yourselves.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.npr.org/2023/05/17/1175452002/church-closings-religious-affiliation

Wow - "Just 16% of Americans say religion is the most important thing in their life, according to a new report released this week by the Public Religion Research Institute.".

"The sharp uptick in the number of younger Americans with no religious affiliation — a group known as the "nones" — is the major driver in a seismic shift in the religious landscape, says Ryan Burge, a political science professor at Eastern Illinois University and author of The Nones: Where They Came From, Who They Are, and Where They Are Going."

What are your thoughts?

Not surprising. I am a 51 year old lapsed Catholic. I would like to go back to church, but there's simply so much history and issues continuing in the present day that make it hard for me to do so. And much harder to explain to my children why it's imperative that we attend Mass every Sunday when in truth I am pro-choice, don't believe the arguments in favor of natural family planning, support women being priests, and don't think the Catholic church has done near enough to address its historical abuses. To keep family peace and tradition both of my kids will be confirmed and then I feel pretty much done. I may explore another denomination.

To keep family peace with whom? Your parents? Certainly not your kids! They will be making commitments that they know their parent doesn't believe in and that they may not believe in either. Considering that confirmation is about making an adult commitment to the church, it seems like it would make sense to ask your kids if they want to be confirmed, instead of insisting that they do something you don't believe in yourself, "to keep family peace." It's like you're teaching them to be hypocritical.

That was my post and I understand the criticism and can't really say that it's totally unfair. Our kids are aware of our viewpoint that we want them to have a foundational exposure to religion so that they will have a comparison if they ever want to return to the church or to explore another denomination. And that it's traditional in our family and extended family to be confirmed.

My reasons for not being faithful are complicated and have developed over my lifetime. I'm also not out of step with many other people who call themselves Catholic but who are still attending Mass, etc. I believe my spouse, who was also raised Catholic and was confirmed, is in a similar place with some similar reasons.

Well, as long as the kids are willing.... I hope it doesn't backfire and one or both of them end up hating Catholicism and/or hating you for forcing them to participate in something you don't believe in yourselves.

We have a good relationship and talk about it. I hope they don't end up hating me, but if they do, I don't think it's going to be for this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.npr.org/2023/05/17/1175452002/church-closings-religious-affiliation

Wow - "Just 16% of Americans say religion is the most important thing in their life, according to a new report released this week by the Public Religion Research Institute.".

"The sharp uptick in the number of younger Americans with no religious affiliation — a group known as the "nones" — is the major driver in a seismic shift in the religious landscape, says Ryan Burge, a political science professor at Eastern Illinois University and author of The Nones: Where They Came From, Who They Are, and Where They Are Going."

What are your thoughts?

Not surprising. I am a 51 year old lapsed Catholic. I would like to go back to church, but there's simply so much history and issues continuing in the present day that make it hard for me to do so. And much harder to explain to my children why it's imperative that we attend Mass every Sunday when in truth I am pro-choice, don't believe the arguments in favor of natural family planning, support women being priests, and don't think the Catholic church has done near enough to address its historical abuses. To keep family peace and tradition both of my kids will be confirmed and then I feel pretty much done. I may explore another denomination.

To keep family peace with whom? Your parents? Certainly not your kids! They will be making commitments that they know their parent doesn't believe in and that they may not believe in either. Considering that confirmation is about making an adult commitment to the church, it seems like it would make sense to ask your kids if they want to be confirmed, instead of insisting that they do something you don't believe in yourself, "to keep family peace." It's like you're teaching them to be hypocritical.

That was my post and I understand the criticism and can't really say that it's totally unfair. Our kids are aware of our viewpoint that we want them to have a foundational exposure to religion so that they will have a comparison if they ever want to return to the church or to explore another denomination. And that it's traditional in our family and extended family to be confirmed.

My reasons for not being faithful are complicated and have developed over my lifetime. I'm also not out of step with many other people who call themselves Catholic but who are still attending Mass, etc. I believe my spouse, who was also raised Catholic and was confirmed, is in a similar place with some similar reasons.

Well, as long as the kids are willing.... I hope it doesn't backfire and one or both of them end up hating Catholicism and/or hating you for forcing them to participate in something you don't believe in yourselves.

We have a good relationship and talk about it. I hope they don't end up hating me, but if they do, I don't think it's going to be for this.

Sounds like they're willing. And it should work, as long as they don't rebel once they're actually going to confirmation classes.

[Anonymous]

Add Scouting to that list - those numbers have plummeted as well. Even the local chamber of commerce and things like that. Anything that has a non-competitive community aspect seems to be dying. And it's those things that are most critical to knitting together the fabric of society.

Could you think of any possible reason for that?

Not the PP, but I've had experience with scouting and was really put off by the vibe - it was overwhelmingly white, conservative, and Christian, and felt like stepping back in time to the 70's - but not the good 70's. It was like it hadn't changed changed since I was a kid, but kids and parents (at least most of them) have changed. Most of the kids there didn't seem to be enjoying themselves, and were being forced by their parents, who seemed to think Eagle Scout would be good on a college application, or that boyscouts was teaching their kid some kind of values (which as far as I could see, it was not).

Yes. I had to work with some Scout members and parents in a former job, specifically with their Eagle Scout projects. The whole thing seemed to be for the parents and their Eagle Scout projects seemed really pointless. I was surprised at how corny and yes, 1950s it was. However, this was in CA so there were plenty of Latino and Asian families participating in it. But it seemed dated and irrelevant.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:IMO, there are a few reasons:

1. people are more educated and don't believe in some of the archaic teachings
2. people are turned off by the religiousity and/or politicizing of God's teachings
3. people may want to connect with a group but not with a group that they have not much in common with -- see #1 and #2
4. people have better things to do on Sundays

-long time church goer who stopped going due to all the above

Sounds like you don't believe in organized religion, but still believe in god. I wonder if there's a way to express god-belief with a like minded group, or if it's even needed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:IMO, there are a few reasons:

1. people are more educated and don't believe in some of the archaic teachings
2. people are turned off by the religiousity and/or politicizing of God's teachings
3. people may want to connect with a group but not with a group that they have not much in common with -- see #1 and #2
4. people have better things to do on Sundays

-long time church goer who stopped going due to all the above

Sounds like you don't believe in organized religion, but still believe in god. I wonder if there's a way to express god-belief with a like minded group, or if it's even needed.

It's called Deism, it has "existed since ancient times, but it did not develop as a religio-philosophical movement until after the Scientific Revolution"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism

BTW there is no evidence for this unfalsifiable belief either.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:IMO, there are a few reasons:

1. people are more educated and don't believe in some of the archaic teachings
2. people are turned off by the religiousity and/or politicizing of God's teachings
3. people may want to connect with a group but not with a group that they have not much in common with -- see #1 and #2
4. people have better things to do on Sundays

-long time church goer who stopped going due to all the above

Sounds like you don't believe in organized religion, but still believe in god. I wonder if there's a way to express god-belief with a like minded group, or if it's even needed.

It's called Deism, it has "existed since ancient times, but it did not develop as a religio-philosophical movement until after the Scientific Revolution"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deism

BTW there is no evidence for this unfalsifiable belief either.

There's no evidence for any of it. That's why it's called faith and why so many people experience feelings of losing their faith. Sometimes they regain it; sometimes they don't.