Millennial men pitched themselves as equal partners. What happened?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is a very privileged conversation. If this is the kind of thing that families with top flight professionals with HHI of $300k+ are going through, what the hell are the nannies, housekeepers, and contractors who work for these people experiencing in their own roles as mothers, fathers, and spouses?

They are doing shift work, don’t have young kids or are married to someone who does shift work.

This. They also don’t tend to move away from their entire support network.

Yup. They also don’t claim they had “no choice” but to move away from their extended family (somehow the fact that they CHOSE their major in college that would require living in certain areas never crosses their minds) and they don’t have the luxury of 90% of them claiming they have Narcissistic Moms Who Couldn’t Be Around My Children Anyway (there is absolutely zero chance that the amount of people who claim this here can statistically be true).

And no, before you bother, I’m the furthest thing from a narcissist and my children aren’t adults. And please don’t bother being predictable and coming back with sOuNdS LiKe wHaT a NaRcIsSiSt wOuLd sAy” because you’re terminally dim.

I have no idea what you are talking about. Most housekeepers and contractors did not go to college, and if they did, they didn’t major in anything that led them to these jobs.
I haven’t found that the percentage of people who claim to have a Narcissistic Parent Who Can’t Be Around My Children Anyway varies with income level or profession.

They are talking about upper-class moms who *could* benefit from help from grandma, but micromanage/limit contact with grandparents because of personal grudges/personality differences.

I totally get PP's point. My mom is annoying as hell and parented completely differently than I parent, but she's a safe, warm, loving caregiver who will do overnights and I don't have to pay her $20+ an hour. I keep my mouth shut about her personality quirks!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is a very privileged conversation. If this is the kind of thing that families with top flight professionals with HHI of $300k+ are going through, what the hell are the nannies, housekeepers, and contractors who work for these people experiencing in their own roles as mothers, fathers, and spouses?

They are doing shift work, don’t have young kids or are married to someone who does shift work.

This. They also don’t tend to move away from their entire support network.

Yup. They also don’t claim they had “no choice” but to move away from their extended family (somehow the fact that they CHOSE their major in college that would require living in certain areas never crosses their minds) and they don’t have the luxury of 90% of them claiming they have Narcissistic Moms Who Couldn’t Be Around My Children Anyway (there is absolutely zero chance that the amount of people who claim this here can statistically be true).

And no, before you bother, I’m the furthest thing from a narcissist and my children aren’t adults. And please don’t bother being predictable and coming back with sOuNdS LiKe wHaT a NaRcIsSiSt wOuLd sAy” because you’re terminally dim.

I have no idea what you are talking about. Most housekeepers and contractors did not go to college, and if they did, they didn’t major in anything that led them to these jobs.
I haven’t found that the percentage of people who claim to have a Narcissistic Parent Who Can’t Be Around My Children Anyway varies with income level or profession.

They are talking about upper-class moms who *could* benefit from help from grandma, but micromanage/limit contact with grandparents because of personal grudges/personality differences.

I totally get PP's point. My mom is annoying as hell and parented completely differently than I parent, but she's a safe, warm, loving caregiver who will do overnights and I don't have to pay her $20+ an hour. I keep my mouth shut about her personality quirks!

Who is turning down free care from grandparents, though? Both my parents and my in laws have very limited interest or ability to watch my kids solo, and it often winds up costing us more than it saves, but we still do it to facilitate them having a relationship.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I always got a creepy vibe from the breastfeeding zealots. I don't think it was solely about the benefits over formula. Their passion and dogmatism on the subject always seemed to vastly outweigh the marginal benefits. So, I think there was some extra baggage being carried -- whether that was something to do with gender roles or something like the antivax crusaders with their autism hysteria, I don't know.

Same. It's interesting because the people I know who are hard-core breastfeeding advocates are on opposite sides of the political spectrum... same with the home birthers.

Anyway IMO we have gone too far with feminism to the point where it's actually not a positive for women. So many men (and women) expect women/mothers to do it all under the guise of 'equality' when the expectations now are not equal at all.

Anyone who’s a zealot about anything parenting related is bad as a general rule. I mean except for like, opposing abuse. But I mean feeding and sleeping and general discipline things.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I always got a creepy vibe from the breastfeeding zealots. I don't think it was solely about the benefits over formula. Their passion and dogmatism on the subject always seemed to vastly outweigh the marginal benefits. So, I think there was some extra baggage being carried -- whether that was something to do with gender roles or something like the antivax crusaders with their autism hysteria, I don't know.

Same. It's interesting because the people I know who are hard-core breastfeeding advocates are on opposite sides of the political spectrum... same with the home birthers.

Anyway IMO we have gone too far with feminism to the point where it's actually not a positive for women. So many men (and women) expect women/mothers to do it all under the guise of 'equality' when the expectations now are not equal at all.

I might have kids someday. There is NO WAY I would breastfeed ever, not even for a minute. If I do have a kid it’s 100% formula from birth. I would literally refuse to breastfeed. I also would hire a night nurse starting from when I give birth. I would never allow myself to lose a second of sleep. Night nurse in the hospital for after baby is born and then for every single night after that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You're not mad because they don't help more.

You're mad because they don't earn more.

I do think a lot of women think they want equality. Then they have kids and want a man who earns more. This is hard to admit and accept. Two friends have confided these thoughts with me.

I want both: a man who earns a good paycheck and does his equal share of childcare and domestic drudgery. It’s not an either/ or thing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think it's a few things.

First, as a woman, I am so much more aware than my husband and better at multi-tasking. If I notice something needs to be done, I do it soon because otherwise it takes mental space to remember. Meaning that it is actually less work overall for me to sign up for music lessons instead of discuss it with my husband and wait for him to get to it and remember the deadlien to sign up and then subtly check in with him as we get closer to the deadline because if I ask outright I'm "nagging."

For many things, the easiest thing is just doing it myself. The only way that I've found to split the work is for each of us to 100% own things. I own more than he does though, and it's self fufilling because I am busy so I want things to be done, and I have a lot of things on my plate so I want to manage work myself so I can plan around it. This means I continue to take on more than my fair share.

I think a big piece of it is mental load. I've tried to implement different mechanisms to share it but it's nearly impossible with someone who was socialized without mental load. It's like my brain has a rolling ticker at the bottom of things that need to get done and I can't turn it off.

The mental load is real. My sister’s husband has a diagnosed anxiety disorder, and it comes with its own issues, but part of it is that he wants to be in control of everything, so he deals with all of the crap…arranging childcare, finding music lessons, opening 529’s, getting the leak in the ceiling fixed, planning vacations, figuring out why the dog keeps vomiting, etc.
I had thought this was all BS when other women complained about it because it could be done between other things, but I can’t tell you how much easier parenthood has been for my sister when she doesn’t have to think about all of this stuff. She goes to work, then comes home and plays with her girls. If she has to go out of town, then she tells her husband and he just deals with it.

Huh. This is my husband too but I don’t think he has anxiety. He’s just controlling and a perfectionist. But it’s about stuff I don’t care to do so I just him do it 🤷‍♀️ He’s also high earning.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is a very privileged conversation. If this is the kind of thing that families with top flight professionals with HHI of $300k+ are going through, what the hell are the nannies, housekeepers, and contractors who work for these people experiencing in their own roles as mothers, fathers, and spouses?

They are doing shift work, don’t have young kids or are married to someone who does shift work.

This. They also don’t tend to move away from their entire support network.

Yup. They also don’t claim they had “no choice” but to move away from their extended family (somehow the fact that they CHOSE their major in college that would require living in certain areas never crosses their minds) and they don’t have the luxury of 90% of them claiming they have Narcissistic Moms Who Couldn’t Be Around My Children Anyway (there is absolutely zero chance that the amount of people who claim this here can statistically be true).

And no, before you bother, I’m the furthest thing from a narcissist and my children aren’t adults. And please don’t bother being predictable and coming back with sOuNdS LiKe wHaT a NaRcIsSiSt wOuLd sAy” because you’re terminally dim.

I have no idea what you are talking about. Most housekeepers and contractors did not go to college, and if they did, they didn’t major in anything that led them to these jobs.
I haven’t found that the percentage of people who claim to have a Narcissistic Parent Who Can’t Be Around My Children Anyway varies with income level or profession.

They are talking about upper-class moms who *could* benefit from help from grandma, but micromanage/limit contact with grandparents because of personal grudges/personality differences.

I totally get PP's point. My mom is annoying as hell and parented completely differently than I parent, but she's a safe, warm, loving caregiver who will do overnights and I don't have to pay her $20+ an hour. I keep my mouth shut about her personality quirks!

Who is turning down free care from grandparents, though? Both my parents and my in laws have very limited interest or ability to watch my kids solo, and it often winds up costing us more than it saves, but we still do it to facilitate them having a relationship.

Yeah, I don't think this is a big segment of the population. Also everyone assumes if you just didn't move out of your hometown you'd get free grandparent care...no. What if there are multiple siblings and your kids are not first in line? What if the grandparents work until their age and health issues are too severe to watch little kids? What if the grandparents themselves are sandwiched (in my case, by care for THEIR 90+ year old parents and a special needs adult child)? It's just such an idyllic view of the life we could have if millennial women weren't so ambitious, but for some of us it would never have happened.

Whew. Anyway, my husband IS an equal partner, but we still need paid childcare, and it's not because I don't adore my mom to the end of the earth.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is a very privileged conversation. If this is the kind of thing that families with top flight professionals with HHI of $300k+ are going through, what the hell are the nannies, housekeepers, and contractors who work for these people experiencing in their own roles as mothers, fathers, and spouses?

They are doing shift work, don’t have young kids or are married to someone who does shift work.

This. They also don’t tend to move away from their entire support network.

Yup. They also don’t claim they had “no choice” but to move away from their extended family (somehow the fact that they CHOSE their major in college that would require living in certain areas never crosses their minds) and they don’t have the luxury of 90% of them claiming they have Narcissistic Moms Who Couldn’t Be Around My Children Anyway (there is absolutely zero chance that the amount of people who claim this here can statistically be true).

And no, before you bother, I’m the furthest thing from a narcissist and my children aren’t adults. And please don’t bother being predictable and coming back with sOuNdS LiKe wHaT a NaRcIsSiSt wOuLd sAy” because you’re terminally dim.

I have no idea what you are talking about. Most housekeepers and contractors did not go to college, and if they did, they didn’t major in anything that led them to these jobs.
I haven’t found that the percentage of people who claim to have a Narcissistic Parent Who Can’t Be Around My Children Anyway varies with income level or profession.

They are talking about upper-class moms who *could* benefit from help from grandma, but micromanage/limit contact with grandparents because of personal grudges/personality differences.

I totally get PP's point. My mom is annoying as hell and parented completely differently than I parent, but she's a safe, warm, loving caregiver who will do overnights and I don't have to pay her $20+ an hour. I keep my mouth shut about her personality quirks!

Who is turning down free care from grandparents, though? Both my parents and my in laws have very limited interest or ability to watch my kids solo, and it often winds up costing us more than it saves, but we still do it to facilitate them having a relationship.

Yeah, I don't think this is a big segment of the population. Also everyone assumes if you just didn't move out of your hometown you'd get free grandparent care...no. What if there are multiple siblings and your kids are not first in line? What if the grandparents work until their age and health issues are too severe to watch little kids? What if the grandparents themselves are sandwiched (in my case, by care for THEIR 90+ year old parents and a special needs adult child)? It's just such an idyllic view of the life we could have if millennial women weren't so ambitious, but for some of us it would never have happened.

Whew. Anyway, my husband IS an equal partner, but we still need paid childcare, and it's not because I don't adore my mom to the end of the earth.

Yep.

My parents already did the free babysitting thing when I was a teenager—nearly full-time for 8 years in their 50s & 60s, starting when my sister had a baby when she was only 21. Now they are finally true empty nesters & about to fully retire. They deserve to enjoy themselves at last.

[Anonymous]

I breastfed exclusively for a year and then for another 2 years (working by then) mostly bc the kid would not let it go and I was too tired to fight it. Breastfeeding is a full time job.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Solidly millennial here (35) and I can only think of one person in my orbit that is a SAHM.

The men I know pull their weight within their relationships and with the kids, and both sides of the couple have jobs that are fairly equal (I would say most of us are at about $400k HHI.)

I worked my tail off for my career and my husband and I earn about the same. Why would I give that up? I couldn't be with someone who expected me to downshift my career or step away from the workforce... which is fine... because there are plenty of people with different outlooks on the situation and are better suited for each other.

Solidly millennial male (41) here, and opposite for me. Most in my circle have SAHW. Of the two that don’t: one wife works a couple of shifts at the hospital a week. The incremental money is important to that household. The second wife has some high GS job where she still makes less than 20% what her husband makes. The husband doesn’t get it from a *financial aspect*, but he shrugs his shoulders as that was the deal they made.

I think this is really an assortative mating issue. People who want a a SAH arrangement sort into those circles much earlier and date from that perspective because SAH is correlated with other identities people find important. FWIW, my wife told me on our second date that she would work if the family needed it, but she felt it was her calling to be a mother and we’ve been fortunate enough to live that out.

Oh god thank you for posting this. I was starting to think I was a total freak. I THOUGHT I was going to be the high power career woman. Then I had my first child. And realized I had major adhd and was pretty useless at a corporate type job. My husband is focused and career oriented. All I wanted after holding my first baby was to be a full time mom. We gave up a lot to make it work financially. Now he runs his own company and we are doing well. We both feel like I’m needed at home now when some of my older kids are teens just as much as when they were all toddlers. And I won’t regret the time I get with them for a second.

[Anonymous]

I think you have selection bias based on your own peer group and preferences. I'm wealthy, and most of the wealthy guys I know strongly prefer to marry/ date "hot" women--hot by conventional standards. If she is smart, great, but young and hot comes first.

Many don't want to hear it, but that is the reality I still see today. Go to the country clubs and non-liberal private schools in this area and you will see this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I say this as a woman who breastfed (for a while): If you do exclusive breastfeeding you are setting yourself up for a "Mom does everything" dynamic from the get-go.

This right here.

In terms of “what happened?” I’d argue a push to breastfeed is one of main drivers of inequality. The mom is the only one who can feed the baby and is in charge of feeding the baby. Meaning she takes on the emotional labor of when to feed.

I completely disagree. Y'all just married terrible husbands and come from dysfunctional families. OMG!

I EBF for 9 months and breastfed for 3 yrs. My DH was my rock who took care of most of the household chores for the longest time, arranged the outsourcing etc, on a very tight budget, so that I could breastfeed. I pumped one feed so that he could do the 4am feed in the morning and could sleep in. I am shocked to hear ho little DHs are helping. Yikes. Also I am a sahm. Only women disparage my choice. Not only the choice to be a sahm, but they are usually pissed that my DH helps at home a lot.

PP. who said my husband didn’t do the same thing you’re did? Sorry but unless you’ve EBF one baby and FF another, you don’t really understand the difference. You’re not in a position to understand what a burden breastfeeding is on a mom because you’ve never FF. It’s comical that you’re bragging about your DH doing household chores.

Of coure I am bragging about my DH doing domestic chores, and of valuing breatfeeding, and earning enough that I can continue to outsource chores even no that the kid are gron. Duh!

I EBF both of my kid for 9 month each. I actually enjoyed spending time ith my babies so for me it was not a chore. It was never ever a burden for me. YMMV. Also, both of our kids are NT biological kids in a stable and happy marriage. Sheesh. It is not as if I adopted children or got a surrogate to birth them and could not produce milk, ffs. My supply did not tank, my babies did not have a problem latching, I did not have any problem getting pregnant, birthing them, and nursing them. I had a ton of support at home.

Why did you have kids or get married to loser men when you are educated and earning? You find nursing your kids a burden? Why have kids? So TOXIC. You did have kids when you had some control over your reproductive rights, correct? Abortion was available? Birth control was available?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I say this as a woman who breastfed (for a while): If you do exclusive breastfeeding you are setting yourself up for a "Mom does everything" dynamic from the get-go.

This right here.

In terms of “what happened?” I’d argue a push to breastfeed is one of main drivers of inequality. The mom is the only one who can feed the baby and is in charge of feeding the baby. Meaning she takes on the emotional labor of when to feed.

I completely disagree. Y'all just married terrible husbands and come from dysfunctional families. OMG!

I EBF for 9 months and breastfed for 3 yrs. My DH was my rock who took care of most of the household chores for the longest time, arranged the outsourcing etc, on a very tight budget, so that I could breastfeed. I pumped one feed so that he could do the 4am feed in the morning and could sleep in. I am shocked to hear ho little DHs are helping. Yikes. Also I am a sahm. Only women disparage my choice. Not only the choice to be a sahm, but they are usually pissed that my DH helps at home a lot.

PP. who said my husband didn’t do the same thing you’re did? Sorry but unless you’ve EBF one baby and FF another, you don’t really understand the difference. You’re not in a position to understand what a burden breastfeeding is on a mom because you’ve never FF. It’s comical that you’re bragging about your DH doing household chores.

Of coure I am bragging about my DH doing domestic chores, and of valuing breatfeeding, and earning enough that I can continue to outsource chores even no that the kid are gron. Duh!

I EBF both of my kid for 9 month each. I actually enjoyed spending time ith my babies so for me it was not a chore. It was never ever a burden for me. YMMV. Also, both of our kids are NT biological kids in a stable and happy marriage. Sheesh. It is not as if I adopted children or got a surrogate to birth them and could not produce milk, ffs. My supply did not tank, my babies did not have a problem latching, I did not have any problem getting pregnant, birthing them, and nursing them. I had a ton of support at home.

Why did you have kids or get married to loser men when you are educated and earning? You find nursing your kids a burden? Why have kids? So TOXIC. You did have kids when you had some control over your reproductive rights, correct? Abortion was available? Birth control was available?

Your post is very aggressive and unhinged. You shouldn’t be this upset but PP. something else is wrong. Please get help.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I always got a creepy vibe from the breastfeeding zealots. I don't think it was solely about the benefits over formula. Their passion and dogmatism on the subject always seemed to vastly outweigh the marginal benefits. So, I think there was some extra baggage being carried -- whether that was something to do with gender roles or something like the antivax crusaders with their autism hysteria, I don't know.

Same. It's interesting because the people I know who are hard-core breastfeeding advocates are on opposite sides of the political spectrum... same with the home birthers.

Anyway IMO we have gone too far with feminism to the point where it's actually not a positive for women. So many men (and women) expect women/mothers to do it all under the guise of 'equality' when the expectations now are not equal at all.

I might have kids someday. There is NO WAY I would breastfeed ever, not even for a minute. If I do have a kid it’s 100% formula from birth. I would literally refuse to breastfeed. I also would hire a night nurse starting from when I give birth. I would never allow myself to lose a second of sleep. Night nurse in the hospital for after baby is born and then for every single night after that.

Lol, okay, please don’t have kids.