For all the parents complaining that the admissions process is rigged against their kids--

[Anonymous]

*It's

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"No one is disputing the bolded part. What we are complaining about, if you can please keep up, is that skin color is being used as a differentiator, such that all of a sudden, a specific skin color allows for less than perfect GPA, less than perfect SAT/ACT, and otherwise average essays and ECs. No one is claiming that they are entitled to attend a certain school, or that a school must accept all students that meet a certain objective entrance bar. What we are complaining about, is that race is being used to admit less-well-performing students over better-performing students."

You really truly don't understand what's happening with URM students in the admissions process. Try reading the Hopwood case. The white plaintiffs in that case didn't get in because they weren't as good as the other white kids that did get in. Of the let's say (making the number up) 400 students who got in, probably 370 were white and 30 were POC. Yet the plaintiffs believed to their core that they lost their seats to the POC. SMH.

In general, the essays and ECs of POC are more impressive than even those of the white kids who get admitted. This is because you can write a very compelling personal essay that demonstrates your grit (young, scrappy, and hungry), your ability to understand that the opportunity to attend Harvard if they let you in is something that will benefit so many more people than just you, and that you are brave enough to shoot for the stars and have proven that when given a chance, you always make the most of it. Basically, your shitty life story as a POC up through the age of 17 enables you to write your personal version of the Alexander Hamilton "I'm not throwing away my shot" story, which is pretty much exactly what schools like that are looking for. I know that you think lots of URMs with lower stats than your kid's are winning those seats at Harvard just because of the color of their skin. Maybe it happens now and then, but that's rare. The faux URMs who have never been pulled over by the cops, or had their parents talked down to by their 5th grade teacher, or had to interpret for their mom at the doctor's office have a hard time conjuring up any life experiences that would distinguish them from everyone else in their essays. If you don't stand out, you don't get in. The URMs who do get in overwhelmingly have some freaking amazing story to tell that demonstrates that they'll do well academically, make the 4 years way more interesting for their classmates, and go on to have a fabulously successful life that will reflect well on the school. Oh, and trust me that you probably don't know everything about your DC's URM classmate who got in and seems to not be "all that." For all you know, she's the lead singer in a mariachi band who won the national competition three years straight, and she helped her parents earn the money they needed to bring her younger sibling here from Guatemala. I hope you're not surprised that she never mentioned any of this to your DC.

I know about 10 kids in my neighborhood who have checked the URM box due to grandma being from spain or being black or being allegedly fractionally american indian, whatever. Our neighborhood houses start at $1M. So the concept of this scrappy youngster is a very small majority of URMs in real life (I believe). And for those kids that are truly disadvantaged, they are better off at mid range schools. Not to be mean but there is a ton of evidence and studies showing that when you go in to a school far below the norms of GPA and SAT that you struggle (shocker!) and that struggle makes them feel insecure and stressed and that in turn results in drop outs and defaults on loans - check the data. It's not like letting kids in who are hundreds of points below everyone else magically catch up by virtue of their acceptance. Maybe a few can rise to the occasion, but most cant.

Elite schools have 95%+ 4-year graduation rates, even taking into account the very few kids who ''dropout.'' NOBODY is getting into an elite school without being an outstanding student.

Of course they are. I know so many kids getting into elite schools this cycle, likely only because of being TO. Nowhere near being an outstanding student.

You have no way of knowing either of these things.

Of course parents can know stats of their kid's friends.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"No one is disputing the bolded part. What we are complaining about, if you can please keep up, is that skin color is being used as a differentiator, such that all of a sudden, a specific skin color allows for less than perfect GPA, less than perfect SAT/ACT, and otherwise average essays and ECs. No one is claiming that they are entitled to attend a certain school, or that a school must accept all students that meet a certain objective entrance bar. What we are complaining about, is that race is being used to admit less-well-performing students over better-performing students."

You really truly don't understand what's happening with URM students in the admissions process. Try reading the Hopwood case. The white plaintiffs in that case didn't get in because they weren't as good as the other white kids that did get in. Of the let's say (making the number up) 400 students who got in, probably 370 were white and 30 were POC. Yet the plaintiffs believed to their core that they lost their seats to the POC. SMH.

In general, the essays and ECs of POC are more impressive than even those of the white kids who get admitted. This is because you can write a very compelling personal essay that demonstrates your grit (young, scrappy, and hungry), your ability to understand that the opportunity to attend Harvard if they let you in is something that will benefit so many more people than just you, and that you are brave enough to shoot for the stars and have proven that when given a chance, you always make the most of it. Basically, your shitty life story as a POC up through the age of 17 enables you to write your personal version of the Alexander Hamilton "I'm not throwing away my shot" story, which is pretty much exactly what schools like that are looking for. I know that you think lots of URMs with lower stats than your kid's are winning those seats at Harvard just because of the color of their skin. Maybe it happens now and then, but that's rare. The faux URMs who have never been pulled over by the cops, or had their parents talked down to by their 5th grade teacher, or had to interpret for their mom at the doctor's office have a hard time conjuring up any life experiences that would distinguish them from everyone else in their essays. If you don't stand out, you don't get in. The URMs who do get in overwhelmingly have some freaking amazing story to tell that demonstrates that they'll do well academically, make the 4 years way more interesting for their classmates, and go on to have a fabulously successful life that will reflect well on the school. Oh, and trust me that you probably don't know everything about your DC's URM classmate who got in and seems to not be "all that." For all you know, she's the lead singer in a mariachi band who won the national competition three years straight, and she helped her parents earn the money they needed to bring her younger sibling here from Guatemala. I hope you're not surprised that she never mentioned any of this to your DC.

I know about 10 kids in my neighborhood who have checked the URM box due to grandma being from spain or being black or being allegedly fractionally american indian, whatever. Our neighborhood houses start at $1M. So the concept of this scrappy youngster is a very small majority of URMs in real life (I believe). And for those kids that are truly disadvantaged, they are better off at mid range schools. Not to be mean but there is a ton of evidence and studies showing that when you go in to a school far below the norms of GPA and SAT that you struggle (shocker!) and that struggle makes them feel insecure and stressed and that in turn results in drop outs and defaults on loans - check the data. It's not like letting kids in who are hundreds of points below everyone else magically catch up by virtue of their acceptance. Maybe a few can rise to the occasion, but most cant.

Elite schools have 95%+ 4-year graduation rates, even taking into account the very few kids who ''dropout.'' NOBODY is getting into an elite school without being an outstanding student.

Of course they are. I know so many kids getting into elite schools this cycle, likely only because of being TO. Nowhere near being an outstanding student.

You have no way of knowing either of these things.

Of course parents can know stats of their kid's friends.

Lol no they don't. There is no way you know the actual, 100% truthful stats of anyone but your own kid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"No one is disputing the bolded part. What we are complaining about, if you can please keep up, is that skin color is being used as a differentiator, such that all of a sudden, a specific skin color allows for less than perfect GPA, less than perfect SAT/ACT, and otherwise average essays and ECs. No one is claiming that they are entitled to attend a certain school, or that a school must accept all students that meet a certain objective entrance bar. What we are complaining about, is that race is being used to admit less-well-performing students over better-performing students."

You really truly don't understand what's happening with URM students in the admissions process. Try reading the Hopwood case. The white plaintiffs in that case didn't get in because they weren't as good as the other white kids that did get in. Of the let's say (making the number up) 400 students who got in, probably 370 were white and 30 were POC. Yet the plaintiffs believed to their core that they lost their seats to the POC. SMH.

In general, the essays and ECs of POC are more impressive than even those of the white kids who get admitted. This is because you can write a very compelling personal essay that demonstrates your grit (young, scrappy, and hungry), your ability to understand that the opportunity to attend Harvard if they let you in is something that will benefit so many more people than just you, and that you are brave enough to shoot for the stars and have proven that when given a chance, you always make the most of it. Basically, your shitty life story as a POC up through the age of 17 enables you to write your personal version of the Alexander Hamilton "I'm not throwing away my shot" story, which is pretty much exactly what schools like that are looking for. I know that you think lots of URMs with lower stats than your kid's are winning those seats at Harvard just because of the color of their skin. Maybe it happens now and then, but that's rare. The faux URMs who have never been pulled over by the cops, or had their parents talked down to by their 5th grade teacher, or had to interpret for their mom at the doctor's office have a hard time conjuring up any life experiences that would distinguish them from everyone else in their essays. If you don't stand out, you don't get in. The URMs who do get in overwhelmingly have some freaking amazing story to tell that demonstrates that they'll do well academically, make the 4 years way more interesting for their classmates, and go on to have a fabulously successful life that will reflect well on the school. Oh, and trust me that you probably don't know everything about your DC's URM classmate who got in and seems to not be "all that." For all you know, she's the lead singer in a mariachi band who won the national competition three years straight, and she helped her parents earn the money they needed to bring her younger sibling here from Guatemala. I hope you're not surprised that she never mentioned any of this to your DC.

I know about 10 kids in my neighborhood who have checked the URM box due to grandma being from spain or being black or being allegedly fractionally american indian, whatever. Our neighborhood houses start at $1M. So the concept of this scrappy youngster is a very small majority of URMs in real life (I believe). And for those kids that are truly disadvantaged, they are better off at mid range schools. Not to be mean but there is a ton of evidence and studies showing that when you go in to a school far below the norms of GPA and SAT that you struggle (shocker!) and that struggle makes them feel insecure and stressed and that in turn results in drop outs and defaults on loans - check the data. It's not like letting kids in who are hundreds of points below everyone else magically catch up by virtue of their acceptance. Maybe a few can rise to the occasion, but most cant.

Elite schools have 95%+ 4-year graduation rates, even taking into account the very few kids who ''dropout.'' NOBODY is getting into an elite school without being an outstanding student.

Of course they are. I know so many kids getting into elite schools this cycle, likely only because of being TO. Nowhere near being an outstanding student.

You have no way of knowing either of these things.

Of course parents can know stats of their kid's friends.

Lol no they don't. There is no way you know the actual, 100% truthful stats of anyone but your own kid.

Eh, I don't necessarily agree if your DC is the one supplying the info. If your DC has been in the same top classes with the same 15-20 kids over the last four years, then there is a chance your DC is going to have a pretty good sense of how their peers are doing. In our situation, DC doesn't necessarily know the ins/outs of peers in the less rigorous classes, but has a pretty good read on immediate classmates in the most rigorous classes. They share this info with each other and in even greater detail if they are close friends and often study together.

FWIW, DC hasn't reported any kid getting into "elite schools" this cycle under test optional. A couple of her friends did apply test optional and got into their EAs/EDs, but these are not what DCUM would describe as elite schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Even at the highest-performing local public high schools, 50% of the graduating class has under roughly a 1330 on the SAT (which is just over 90th percentile nationally). Being at these high schools, although they offer great college preparation compared to worse high schools, can seriously skew one’s perception.

That number is way too high, even at excellent public schools.

https://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/departments/regulatoryaccountability/glance/currentyear/schools/04427.pdf

Whitman was at that in 2020.

I haven't read all 15 pages of this thread yet so don't know if it was already pointed out but the document you linked to says that 1339 was the average SAT score of the 60% of students who took the test.

Presumably the 40% of students who didn't bother taking the SAT test would have scored below 1339 so half of 60% (i.e 30%) of students at Whitman scored about 1339.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"No one is disputing the bolded part. What we are complaining about, if you can please keep up, is that skin color is being used as a differentiator, such that all of a sudden, a specific skin color allows for less than perfect GPA, less than perfect SAT/ACT, and otherwise average essays and ECs. No one is claiming that they are entitled to attend a certain school, or that a school must accept all students that meet a certain objective entrance bar. What we are complaining about, is that race is being used to admit less-well-performing students over better-performing students."

You really truly don't understand what's happening with URM students in the admissions process. Try reading the Hopwood case. The white plaintiffs in that case didn't get in because they weren't as good as the other white kids that did get in. Of the let's say (making the number up) 400 students who got in, probably 370 were white and 30 were POC. Yet the plaintiffs believed to their core that they lost their seats to the POC. SMH.

In general, the essays and ECs of POC are more impressive than even those of the white kids who get admitted. This is because you can write a very compelling personal essay that demonstrates your grit (young, scrappy, and hungry), your ability to understand that the opportunity to attend Harvard if they let you in is something that will benefit so many more people than just you, and that you are brave enough to shoot for the stars and have proven that when given a chance, you always make the most of it. Basically, your shitty life story as a POC up through the age of 17 enables you to write your personal version of the Alexander Hamilton "I'm not throwing away my shot" story, which is pretty much exactly what schools like that are looking for. I know that you think lots of URMs with lower stats than your kid's are winning those seats at Harvard just because of the color of their skin. Maybe it happens now and then, but that's rare. The faux URMs who have never been pulled over by the cops, or had their parents talked down to by their 5th grade teacher, or had to interpret for their mom at the doctor's office have a hard time conjuring up any life experiences that would distinguish them from everyone else in their essays. If you don't stand out, you don't get in. The URMs who do get in overwhelmingly have some freaking amazing story to tell that demonstrates that they'll do well academically, make the 4 years way more interesting for their classmates, and go on to have a fabulously successful life that will reflect well on the school. Oh, and trust me that you probably don't know everything about your DC's URM classmate who got in and seems to not be "all that." For all you know, she's the lead singer in a mariachi band who won the national competition three years straight, and she helped her parents earn the money they needed to bring her younger sibling here from Guatemala. I hope you're not surprised that she never mentioned any of this to your DC.

I know about 10 kids in my neighborhood who have checked the URM box due to grandma being from spain or being black or being allegedly fractionally american indian, whatever. Our neighborhood houses start at $1M. So the concept of this scrappy youngster is a very small majority of URMs in real life (I believe). And for those kids that are truly disadvantaged, they are better off at mid range schools. Not to be mean but there is a ton of evidence and studies showing that when you go in to a school far below the norms of GPA and SAT that you struggle (shocker!) and that struggle makes them feel insecure and stressed and that in turn results in drop outs and defaults on loans - check the data. It's not like letting kids in who are hundreds of points below everyone else magically catch up by virtue of their acceptance. Maybe a few can rise to the occasion, but most cant.

Elite schools have 95%+ 4-year graduation rates, even taking into account the very few kids who ''dropout.'' NOBODY is getting into an elite school without being an outstanding student.

Of course they are. I know so many kids getting into elite schools this cycle, likely only because of being TO. Nowhere near being an outstanding student.

You have no way of knowing either of these things.

DP... Trump and GWB - just two examples.

It would be interesting to see the stats of legacies and compare them to, oh.. say, Asian American students who apply. Then look at the admit rate of legacy vs Asian American students with no legacy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If someone I work with went to a very competitive school and I don't think they're very impressive, if I find out their father went to the same school, I'm going to be suspicious that they got into that school on academic merit. Even if they did.

By the same token, if that person is from an URM group and they're underperforming, I may also assume they didn't get in based on academic merit. Even if they did.

Our Supreme Court nominee seems amazingly qualified, yet people were asking to see her LSAT scores. Is this racist? Maybe. But unfortunately, raced-based admissions raises those questions.

I wish people picked on unfair legacy admissions more than race-based ones. But when you make race a factor in admissions, you can't fault logically-thinking people from assuming race was a factor in any given admission decision. (And telling them their poor snowflake didn't cut it won't change that.)

Sure, if people don't like holistic admissions policies, their kids can simply apply elsewhere. But their support of race-blind policies aren't what is fanning the flames of racism. It is race-based policies that perpetuate racial stereotypes and prejudice.

+1 well stated, and ITA.

[Anonymous]

And while we're at it, Asian American students who are legacy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If someone I work with went to a very competitive school and I don't think they're very impressive, if I find out their father went to the same school, I'm going to be suspicious that they got into that school on academic merit. Even if they did.

By the same token, if that person is from an URM group and they're underperforming, I may also assume they didn't get in based on academic merit. Even if they did.

Our Supreme Court nominee seems amazingly qualified, yet people were asking to see her LSAT scores. Is this racist? Maybe. But unfortunately, raced-based admissions raises those questions.

I wish people picked on unfair legacy admissions more than race-based ones. But when you make race a factor in admissions, you can't fault logically-thinking people from assuming race was a factor in any given admission decision. (And telling them their poor snowflake didn't cut it won't change that.)

Sure, if people don't like holistic admissions policies, their kids can simply apply elsewhere. But their support of race-blind policies aren't what is fanning the flames of racism. It is race-based policies that perpetuate racial stereotypes and prejudice.

+1 well stated, and ITA.

Let me find a scapegoat for my own racist beliefs! It’s not me its you. I love it. +10000.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If someone I work with went to a very competitive school and I don't think they're very impressive, if I find out their father went to the same school, I'm going to be suspicious that they got into that school on academic merit. Even if they did.

By the same token, if that person is from an URM group and they're underperforming, I may also assume they didn't get in based on academic merit. Even if they did.

Our Supreme Court nominee seems amazingly qualified, yet people were asking to see her LSAT scores. Is this racist? Maybe. But unfortunately, raced-based admissions raises those questions.

I wish people picked on unfair legacy admissions more than race-based ones. But when you make race a factor in admissions, you can't fault logically-thinking people from assuming race was a factor in any given admission decision. (And telling them their poor snowflake didn't cut it won't change that.)

Sure, if people don't like holistic admissions policies, their kids can simply apply elsewhere. But their support of race-blind policies aren't what is fanning the flames of racism. It is race-based policies that perpetuate racial stereotypes and prejudice.

+1 well stated, and ITA.

Let me find a scapegoat for my own racist beliefs! It’s not me its you. I love it. +10000.

+1

[Anonymous]

"I know about 10 kids in my neighborhood who have checked the URM box due to grandma being from spain or being black or being allegedly fractionally american indian, whatever. Our neighborhood houses start at $1M. So the concept of this scrappy youngster is a very small majority of URMs in real life (I believe). And for those kids that are truly disadvantaged, they are better off at mid range schools. Not to be mean but there is a ton of evidence and studies showing that when you go in to a school far below the norms of GPA and SAT that you struggle (shocker!) and that struggle makes them feel insecure and stressed and that in turn results in drop outs and defaults on loans - check the data. It's not like letting kids in who are hundreds of points below everyone else magically catch up by virtue of their acceptance. Maybe a few can rise to the occasion, but most cant."

So you live in a tiny pocket where the top 5% live, and you think all URMs applying to very selective colleges are kids like the ones in your exclusive neighborhood with a Spanish abuela? I take it that recreational marijuana is legal wherever this neighborhood is and that you've been overdoing with the brownies?

There is no study published in a reputable journal that says what you're claiming about the best educational settings for high achieving URMs. Are you dumb as well as high?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This is a great article on how to teach your child to have no competitive spirit and be happy with what meager rations they are given.

Kids this bright are quite aware of who is getting into the schools they and their friends have been targeting for 2 or 3 years and they can see the reverse discrimination and unfairness at play. They are not 2 year olds looking for moms reaction on this.

Maybe responsible parenting is acknowledging that while top schools are a stretch for everyone, it IS unfair that qualities outside of their control and baseless to achievement are getting prioritized over what should matter and thus impacting your child's results. It's not fair and there is nothing we can do.

But that they will still go to a good school and because they are brilliant they will make the best of it. The world will level out once they get past the insanity/bubble of college admissions because in the real world results matter more than checking a demographic box and brilliance and hard work will pay off, regardless of liberal agendas.

Companies focus on things that matter and so while this phase of life will illustrate to them the unfairness of racism of discrimination, the good news is that they will be past this BS in four years.

That is the article I would write.

This is total BS.

There is nothing "unfair" going on. Although there are students with very high grades and test scores that want to (and do) go to the elite schools, there are students with lower grades and test scores that thrive at these schools too. And it's simply a fact that these elite schools are NOT interested in creating cohorts filled with the kids who had the highest grades and test scores in high school, even if they did great ECs too. Schools are creating communities of learners and citizens who, as a group, will make each other better. That includes learning from one another, meeting people from different backgrounds and with varying perspectives. Sure, they want students to be prepared - but it does not take having a 5.0 and 1600 SAT/36 ACT to be prepared for classes at an elite school. So the range of grades/test scores that keep a kid on the "consideration pile" is far broader than you are imagining (demanding?!). After determining whether a applicant can succeed on campus, schools are trying to see who these students are as people, as learners, as creators, as community members.... There's nothing unfair. You have just bought into a myth (which maybe used to be true) that the kids with the highest grades/scores, resumes were the ones that can expect to gain admission.

FYI - he same can be said of the DMV top X private schools too.