Can we spreadload FRL% across APS? Arlington / Education Newbie here

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When a group of S Arlington parents tried to raise this issue about 7-8 years ago they were shouted down by affordable housing advocates, school board members and S Arlington residents. Not N Arlington families.

They weren't just shouted down. They were called racist NIMBYs.

The only SB member who has really tried to make headway on this issue is RG. And he was not treated kindly by the chair at the time. People like to vaguely blame N. Arlington, but the entities listed above really do the work of maintaining the status quo.

RG helped to make some awful decisions with regards to zoning at that time. He is refusing to budge on the 15 kids per grade who should go to W&L with all of their neighbors and middle school but are zoned for Yorktown based on a crappy 2017 zoning decision. These kids will lose their community of friends they start high school. It's an island of zoning (Ashlawn- Kenmore).

Some neighbors have been trying to work with him unsuccessfully.

https://www.insidenova.com/opinion/letters_to_editor/letter-arlington-school-boundary-efforts-do-not-put-needs-of-students-first/article_371911ae-47ab-11ec-9877-f7d76a1cc327.html

He's right not to give in to them and the SB would be right not to cave to them. Maybe it was stupid to move them a few years ago; but they shouldn't be moving them back in this process.

First of all, They are right to wait and see how enrollment plays out over the next year or so after the pandemic wave and look at all the high school boundaries together as a whole in another year or two. If they move that planning unit now, they won't be able to move it again in another year or so if that's what is needed.

Second of all, there are others in that planning unit who are perfectly happy to be at Yorktown. You won't hear them say so publicly at a SB meeting or via letters in the news or social media. People in Arlington long ago learned not to speak up against the complainers.

Third, this isn't about social isolation for the kids. This is about the parents wanting to be at WL. It's the parents telling their kids they're going to be socially isolated and miserable and propping them up in front of SB members. Are there kids who have a hard time? Sure. There are kids who have a hard time no matter how many classmates they move to middle school or to high school with. The severity of overcrowding at another school outweighs pacifying a handful of kids or their parents.

If they cave to this petition, they’ll just be setting themselves up for all the other split neighborhoods/feeder schools with few kids in individual planning units to demand the same, and there are A LOT of them, and not enough space to cave to them all. That’s why they split them in the first place.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Wow do you assume fARM a kids want to be bussed around and not attend their neighborhood schools. The easier way to fix the disparity between north and south Arlington school is to kill the option schools (other than immersion). It’s a brain/resources drain on the south arl schools. But, ironically, super woke Arlington loves school choice. In the meantime, the school board and other woke parents will push fake equity shit instead of doing the one thing that would make the biggest difference.

Have you ever taken a look at what the stats would be with no option schools?
It wouldn't make a dent in the FRL% at Carlin Springs or Randolph or even significantly at Barcroft. Carlin Springs and Randolph are not the schools with a lot of people fleeing to option programs.

Secondly, whether poor people want to be bused farther away or whether rich people want to be bussed farther away or whether rich people who purposely moved away from the poor people want to have more poor kids in school with their kids is IRRELEVANT. School leaders should be doing whatever they need to do to provide the best education for all of its students. Decades of research has demonstrated that economically diverse classrooms are better.

Rather than eliminating option schools, APS should do the opposite - and the only way to fix the issue: countywide ranked-choice admissions to all schools based on a formula that at least strives to narrow the disparities to reasonably acceptable levels. Why is this the most equitable solution?

1. People can't buy their school anymore and can't whine when they get redistricted to a different school.
2. It eliminates all boundary change processes and all the angst and time and resources and outrage and heartache and everything else that comes along with it.
3. EVERYONE has to rank their top 3 or 4 schools and EVERYONE has comparable chances of not getting their most preferred.
3. In districts that follow this system, the majority of people get their top choice school and the vast majority get either their first or second choice.
4. The admissions formula can be designed for balance between genders as well as economic means, walkability/proximity, and maintaining balanced enrollment across schools (which also prevents imbalanced overcrowding and the need for regular boundary adjustments....see #2 above.)
5. Resources are more evenly distributed and ALL students have more comparable opportunities and experiences and school performance is far more consistent across the entire district.
6. Throwing a bone to those who still have to feel they are superior: you don't have to bring poor people into rich neighborhoods or vice versa; so people can still have their exclusive residential enclaves and special neighborhood names they can cite when people ask where they live.

That’s a nice idea, but it won’t be happening. It’s impossible to accomplish what you would consider reasonably acceptable balance without moving a large number of kids from the far north to far south and vice-versa. Anyone who can understand maps and math knows this. It’s a nonstarter in Arlington.

I don't even think it's a "nice idea" - it's a terrible idea! So glad it is also impossible and never gonna happen.

OP, Arlington education newbie - does this thread answer your question?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:While not in favor, a ranked choice lottery would be fascinating. Our family is in the Cardinal district. Our top 4 choices would be Cardinal, Nottingham, Tuckahoe and Glebe. Wouldn't exactly get you the cross-county choices you're looking for.

My guess is your average Discovery parent would choose Discovery, Jamestown, Nottingham and Tuckahoe.

Other than probably a small proportion, APS families are going to choose the schools near their homes. OP, you may be new to this but this has been rehashed endless times over the last 15yrs. APS families overwhelmingly value proximity more than any other single factor in choosing their child's school. Best of luck as the latest to try and push this rock uphill.

This. A while ago I read an assessment of the impact on New Orleans schools when they went to an all lottery system after Katrina. By and large, families picked schools near their homes so it didn't do much to desegregate.

Right! This is precisely the point that has been hammered over and over again.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:While not in favor, a ranked choice lottery would be fascinating. Our family is in the Cardinal district. Our top 4 choices would be Cardinal, Nottingham, Tuckahoe and Glebe. Wouldn't exactly get you the cross-county choices you're looking for.

My guess is your average Discovery parent would choose Discovery, Jamestown, Nottingham and Tuckahoe.

Other than probably a small proportion, APS families are going to choose the schools near their homes. OP, you may be new to this but this has been rehashed endless times over the last 15yrs. APS families overwhelmingly value proximity more than any other single factor in choosing their child's school. Best of luck as the latest to try and push this rock uphill.

This. A while ago I read an assessment of the impact on New Orleans schools when they went to an all lottery system after Katrina. By and large, families picked schools near their homes so it didn't do much to desegregate.

Right! This is precisely the point that has been hammered over and over again.

It is reasonable to expect that most families would choose close schools, especially after such extreme turmoil and upheaval as a devastating hurricane that's taken years to recover from, and at the start of a new choice admissions program. People are more comfortable with what they are already familiar with.

Regardless, instead of going to the first negative example people can think of or pops up in an internet search, people should dig a bit deeper. Learn more about the various efforts and the successes, dare to open their minds a bit about possibilities and what things might be equally or more important than buying their kid's public school. The Century Foundation in particular has followed this issue and has compiled a great deal of helpful information. Let's spend less time arguing our existing unproven theories and personal opinions and spend that time instead reading more about it. Then come back and debate with more knowledge and credibility.

https://tcf.org/search/louisville+KY+school+system/
https://tcf.org/content/report/school-integration-practice-lessons-nine-districts/
https://tcf.org/content/report/cambridge-public-schools/?agreed=1

https://tcf.org/content/report/louisville-kentucky-reflection-school-integration/
"A group of students who graduated high school in the district’s first year of integration have since formed an organization, Pioneers of Desegregation and Forced Busing.62 The group’s members felt as though going to an integrated school opened their eyes to how things were outside of their community63"

And after a Supreme Court ruling against Louisville's integration efforts:
"But any assertion that the journey toward integration had ended was far from the truth. In a community where some parents78 had grown up in Louisville’s integrated environment, students and community members fought hard to maintain some version of integration. As a result, the district developed a new plan that based integration on more than just race. In its revised form, the district placed schools in geographic clusters79 or groups of diverse neighborhoods based on80 census block characteristics including percentage minority residents, household income, and adult education level. Parents would be able to list preferences for specific schools in their cluster in an application, and the district would account for both family school choice and diversity goals. While there is no guarantee that a student would be assigned their first choice school, most families seem satisfied with a process that gave them greater variety and control over their child’s educational future.81"

And since 1990, Louisville's housing segregation has decreased by 20%. Perhaps the first step does not have to be the County Board's. Perhaps APS can have greater impact on housing segregation in Arlington than anyone dares to think. If you create a district whereby there are few disparities between schools, all schools become more equally desired and sought-after; so it doesn't matter so much which neighborhood you buy into (which is probably what people are really afraid of).

[Anonymous]

I'm going to toss in a very non-PC but additional issue that explains why many parents of high performing or privileged children might oppose this. One thing we all saw starkly during virtual last year, and we're now hearing about this year, is that the teachers are absolutely focused on the lowest performing and struggling kids. This has always been the case, but the learning loss from the pandemic has made the gap even greater.

If I have a high performing kid right now in a so-called good, low-FRL school who isn't getting appropriate instruction because the teachers have to focus on the bottom, do I really want to put my child into a school that is so-called lower performing where the proportion of high achieving to struggling students is even greater? It's unfortunate that while it might be good for my child's seatmate, it could actually be detrimental to him because the school's approach will be "he'll be fine", which is already what we are seeing in our NA school. On a philosophical grand scheme, it's laudable. At a true family-focused level, it might not be.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:While not in favor, a ranked choice lottery would be fascinating. Our family is in the Cardinal district. Our top 4 choices would be Cardinal, Nottingham, Tuckahoe and Glebe. Wouldn't exactly get you the cross-county choices you're looking for.

My guess is your average Discovery parent would choose Discovery, Jamestown, Nottingham and Tuckahoe.

Other than probably a small proportion, APS families are going to choose the schools near their homes. OP, you may be new to this but this has been rehashed endless times over the last 15yrs. APS families overwhelmingly value proximity more than any other single factor in choosing their child's school. Best of luck as the latest to try and push this rock uphill.

This. A while ago I read an assessment of the impact on New Orleans schools when they went to an all lottery system after Katrina. By and large, families picked schools near their homes so it didn't do much to desegregate.

Right! This is precisely the point that has been hammered over and over again.

It is reasonable to expect that most families would choose close schools, especially after such extreme turmoil and upheaval as a devastating hurricane that's taken years to recover from, and at the start of a new choice admissions program. People are more comfortable with what they are already familiar with.

Regardless, instead of going to the first negative example people can think of or pops up in an internet search, people should dig a bit deeper. Learn more about the various efforts and the successes, dare to open their minds a bit about possibilities and what things might be equally or more important than buying their kid's public school. The Century Foundation in particular has followed this issue and has compiled a great deal of helpful information. Let's spend less time arguing our existing unproven theories and personal opinions and spend that time instead reading more about it. Then come back and debate with more knowledge and credibility.

https://tcf.org/search/louisville+KY+school+system/
https://tcf.org/content/report/school-integration-practice-lessons-nine-districts/
https://tcf.org/content/report/cambridge-public-schools/?agreed=1

https://tcf.org/content/report/louisville-kentucky-reflection-school-integration/
"A group of students who graduated high school in the district’s first year of integration have since formed an organization, Pioneers of Desegregation and Forced Busing.62 The group’s members felt as though going to an integrated school opened their eyes to how things were outside of their community63"

And after a Supreme Court ruling against Louisville's integration efforts:
"But any assertion that the journey toward integration had ended was far from the truth. In a community where some parents78 had grown up in Louisville’s integrated environment, students and community members fought hard to maintain some version of integration. As a result, the district developed a new plan that based integration on more than just race. In its revised form, the district placed schools in geographic clusters79 or groups of diverse neighborhoods based on80 census block characteristics including percentage minority residents, household income, and adult education level. Parents would be able to list preferences for specific schools in their cluster in an application, and the district would account for both family school choice and diversity goals. While there is no guarantee that a student would be assigned their first choice school, most families seem satisfied with a process that gave them greater variety and control over their child’s educational future.81"

And since 1990, Louisville's housing segregation has decreased by 20%. Perhaps the first step does not have to be the County Board's. Perhaps APS can have greater impact on housing segregation in Arlington than anyone dares to think. If you create a district whereby there are few disparities between schools, all schools become more equally desired and sought-after; so it doesn't matter so much which neighborhood you buy into (which is probably what people are really afraid of).

I realize Great Schools is not a perfect tool, but I think it is worth noting that 57% of the schools in Jefferson County are "below average" https://www.greatschools.org/kentucky/louisville/jefferson-county/

I don't think your plan to make all the schools in Arlington equally crappy is going to catch on.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:While not in favor, a ranked choice lottery would be fascinating. Our family is in the Cardinal district. Our top 4 choices would be Cardinal, Nottingham, Tuckahoe and Glebe. Wouldn't exactly get you the cross-county choices you're looking for.

My guess is your average Discovery parent would choose Discovery, Jamestown, Nottingham and Tuckahoe.

Other than probably a small proportion, APS families are going to choose the schools near their homes. OP, you may be new to this but this has been rehashed endless times over the last 15yrs. APS families overwhelmingly value proximity more than any other single factor in choosing their child's school. Best of luck as the latest to try and push this rock uphill.

This. A while ago I read an assessment of the impact on New Orleans schools when they went to an all lottery system after Katrina. By and large, families picked schools near their homes so it didn't do much to desegregate.

Right! This is precisely the point that has been hammered over and over again.

It is reasonable to expect that most families would choose close schools, especially after such extreme turmoil and upheaval as a devastating hurricane that's taken years to recover from, and at the start of a new choice admissions program. People are more comfortable with what they are already familiar with.

Regardless, instead of going to the first negative example people can think of or pops up in an internet search, people should dig a bit deeper. Learn more about the various efforts and the successes, dare to open their minds a bit about possibilities and what things might be equally or more important than buying their kid's public school. The Century Foundation in particular has followed this issue and has compiled a great deal of helpful information. Let's spend less time arguing our existing unproven theories and personal opinions and spend that time instead reading more about it. Then come back and debate with more knowledge and credibility.

https://tcf.org/search/louisville+KY+school+system/
https://tcf.org/content/report/school-integration-practice-lessons-nine-districts/
https://tcf.org/content/report/cambridge-public-schools/?agreed=1

https://tcf.org/content/report/louisville-kentucky-reflection-school-integration/
"A group of students who graduated high school in the district’s first year of integration have since formed an organization, Pioneers of Desegregation and Forced Busing.62 The group’s members felt as though going to an integrated school opened their eyes to how things were outside of their community63"

And after a Supreme Court ruling against Louisville's integration efforts:
"But any assertion that the journey toward integration had ended was far from the truth. In a community where some parents78 had grown up in Louisville’s integrated environment, students and community members fought hard to maintain some version of integration. As a result, the district developed a new plan that based integration on more than just race. In its revised form, the district placed schools in geographic clusters79 or groups of diverse neighborhoods based on80 census block characteristics including percentage minority residents, household income, and adult education level. Parents would be able to list preferences for specific schools in their cluster in an application, and the district would account for both family school choice and diversity goals. While there is no guarantee that a student would be assigned their first choice school, most families seem satisfied with a process that gave them greater variety and control over their child’s educational future.81"

And since 1990, Louisville's housing segregation has decreased by 20%. Perhaps the first step does not have to be the County Board's. Perhaps APS can have greater impact on housing segregation in Arlington than anyone dares to think. If you create a district whereby there are few disparities between schools, all schools become more equally desired and sought-after; so it doesn't matter so much which neighborhood you buy into (which is probably what people are really afraid of).

Love hearing how you view parents with kids currently in the system as having no knowledge or credibility in this area.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm going to toss in a very non-PC but additional issue that explains why many parents of high performing or privileged children might oppose this. One thing we all saw starkly during virtual last year, and we're now hearing about this year, is that the teachers are absolutely focused on the lowest performing and struggling kids. This has always been the case, but the learning loss from the pandemic has made the gap even greater.

If I have a high performing kid right now in a so-called good, low-FRL school who isn't getting appropriate instruction because the teachers have to focus on the bottom, do I really want to put my child into a school that is so-called lower performing where the proportion of high achieving to struggling students is even greater? It's unfortunate that while it might be good for my child's seatmate, it could actually be detrimental to him because the school's approach will be "he'll be fine", which is already what we are seeing in our NA school. On a philosophical grand scheme, it's laudable. At a true family-focused level, it might not be.

Honey, why do you think so many UMCs in the high FRL schools support diversifying the schools? They've been seeing this throughout their kids' schooling. But because they couldn't afford your neighborhood, they're stuck with it and it's their problem, right?

Nevertheless, nobody's trying to make every school high-poverty. You might be seeing a difference this year after a year-plus of sub-optimal, ineffective distance learning; but the studies show that below a 40% FRL tipping point, you would not be noticing a reduction in instructional quality or rigor. That tipping point is pretty high, too; so if Arlington actually balanced out its FRL rates across schools, that rate would be well below the point of concern.

Also, it doesn't need to -- and wouldn't -- happen overnight. APS should be taking advantage of each boundary review and policy review and making decisions that at least move the needle in the right direction rather than always choosing the options that make things worse.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:While not in favor, a ranked choice lottery would be fascinating. Our family is in the Cardinal district. Our top 4 choices would be Cardinal, Nottingham, Tuckahoe and Glebe. Wouldn't exactly get you the cross-county choices you're looking for.

My guess is your average Discovery parent would choose Discovery, Jamestown, Nottingham and Tuckahoe.

Other than probably a small proportion, APS families are going to choose the schools near their homes. OP, you may be new to this but this has been rehashed endless times over the last 15yrs. APS families overwhelmingly value proximity more than any other single factor in choosing their child's school. Best of luck as the latest to try and push this rock uphill.

This. A while ago I read an assessment of the impact on New Orleans schools when they went to an all lottery system after Katrina. By and large, families picked schools near their homes so it didn't do much to desegregate.

Right! This is precisely the point that has been hammered over and over again.

It is reasonable to expect that most families would choose close schools, especially after such extreme turmoil and upheaval as a devastating hurricane that's taken years to recover from, and at the start of a new choice admissions program. People are more comfortable with what they are already familiar with.

Regardless, instead of going to the first negative example people can think of or pops up in an internet search, people should dig a bit deeper. Learn more about the various efforts and the successes, dare to open their minds a bit about possibilities and what things might be equally or more important than buying their kid's public school. The Century Foundation in particular has followed this issue and has compiled a great deal of helpful information. Let's spend less time arguing our existing unproven theories and personal opinions and spend that time instead reading more about it. Then come back and debate with more knowledge and credibility.

https://tcf.org/search/louisville+KY+school+system/
https://tcf.org/content/report/school-integration-practice-lessons-nine-districts/
https://tcf.org/content/report/cambridge-public-schools/?agreed=1

https://tcf.org/content/report/louisville-kentucky-reflection-school-integration/
"A group of students who graduated high school in the district’s first year of integration have since formed an organization, Pioneers of Desegregation and Forced Busing.62 The group’s members felt as though going to an integrated school opened their eyes to how things were outside of their community63"

And after a Supreme Court ruling against Louisville's integration efforts:
"But any assertion that the journey toward integration had ended was far from the truth. In a community where some parents78 had grown up in Louisville’s integrated environment, students and community members fought hard to maintain some version of integration. As a result, the district developed a new plan that based integration on more than just race. In its revised form, the district placed schools in geographic clusters79 or groups of diverse neighborhoods based on80 census block characteristics including percentage minority residents, household income, and adult education level. Parents would be able to list preferences for specific schools in their cluster in an application, and the district would account for both family school choice and diversity goals. While there is no guarantee that a student would be assigned their first choice school, most families seem satisfied with a process that gave them greater variety and control over their child’s educational future.81"

And since 1990, Louisville's housing segregation has decreased by 20%. Perhaps the first step does not have to be the County Board's. Perhaps APS can have greater impact on housing segregation in Arlington than anyone dares to think. If you create a district whereby there are few disparities between schools, all schools become more equally desired and sought-after; so it doesn't matter so much which neighborhood you buy into (which is probably what people are really afraid of).

I realize Great Schools is not a perfect tool, but I think it is worth noting that 57% of the schools in Jefferson County are "below average" https://www.greatschools.org/kentucky/louisville/jefferson-county/

I don't think your plan to make all the schools in Arlington equally crappy is going to catch on.

You didn't waste any time looking for data to support your side, did you? Did you then take any time to consider the context of those numbers? Demographics of Louisville and Arlington are different. Read the stats in the TCF articles (plural articles...not just the one you want to pick out to suit your argument). It isn't your middle class white child who's not passing. Meanwhile, minority students are achieving better. White students are expressing positive benefits.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:While not in favor, a ranked choice lottery would be fascinating. Our family is in the Cardinal district. Our top 4 choices would be Cardinal, Nottingham, Tuckahoe and Glebe. Wouldn't exactly get you the cross-county choices you're looking for.

My guess is your average Discovery parent would choose Discovery, Jamestown, Nottingham and Tuckahoe.

Other than probably a small proportion, APS families are going to choose the schools near their homes. OP, you may be new to this but this has been rehashed endless times over the last 15yrs. APS families overwhelmingly value proximity more than any other single factor in choosing their child's school. Best of luck as the latest to try and push this rock uphill.

This. A while ago I read an assessment of the impact on New Orleans schools when they went to an all lottery system after Katrina. By and large, families picked schools near their homes so it didn't do much to desegregate.

Right! This is precisely the point that has been hammered over and over again.

It is reasonable to expect that most families would choose close schools, especially after such extreme turmoil and upheaval as a devastating hurricane that's taken years to recover from, and at the start of a new choice admissions program. People are more comfortable with what they are already familiar with.

Regardless, instead of going to the first negative example people can think of or pops up in an internet search, people should dig a bit deeper. Learn more about the various efforts and the successes, dare to open their minds a bit about possibilities and what things might be equally or more important than buying their kid's public school. The Century Foundation in particular has followed this issue and has compiled a great deal of helpful information. Let's spend less time arguing our existing unproven theories and personal opinions and spend that time instead reading more about it. Then come back and debate with more knowledge and credibility.

https://tcf.org/search/louisville+KY+school+system/
https://tcf.org/content/report/school-integration-practice-lessons-nine-districts/
https://tcf.org/content/report/cambridge-public-schools/?agreed=1

https://tcf.org/content/report/louisville-kentucky-reflection-school-integration/
"A group of students who graduated high school in the district’s first year of integration have since formed an organization, Pioneers of Desegregation and Forced Busing.62 The group’s members felt as though going to an integrated school opened their eyes to how things were outside of their community63"

And after a Supreme Court ruling against Louisville's integration efforts:
"But any assertion that the journey toward integration had ended was far from the truth. In a community where some parents78 had grown up in Louisville’s integrated environment, students and community members fought hard to maintain some version of integration. As a result, the district developed a new plan that based integration on more than just race. In its revised form, the district placed schools in geographic clusters79 or groups of diverse neighborhoods based on80 census block characteristics including percentage minority residents, household income, and adult education level. Parents would be able to list preferences for specific schools in their cluster in an application, and the district would account for both family school choice and diversity goals. While there is no guarantee that a student would be assigned their first choice school, most families seem satisfied with a process that gave them greater variety and control over their child’s educational future.81"

And since 1990, Louisville's housing segregation has decreased by 20%. Perhaps the first step does not have to be the County Board's. Perhaps APS can have greater impact on housing segregation in Arlington than anyone dares to think. If you create a district whereby there are few disparities between schools, all schools become more equally desired and sought-after; so it doesn't matter so much which neighborhood you buy into (which is probably what people are really afraid of).

Love hearing how you view parents with kids currently in the system as having no knowledge or credibility in this area.

People speak from emotion. How many are actually well-versed in desegregating schools and all the ways many jurisdictions across the country are addressing segregation and inequality? People on this forum just shoot down any idea they don't like because of whatever reason they want/can. These other school districts didn't do that - they moved forward despite the challenges, despite the pushback, despite potential political backlash. And they've succeeded in many ways, bringing the community along and increasingly gaining support and approval for the decisions they made. People were actually willing to make compromises and make it work in the long run. Unlike Arlington progressive democrats who just like things the way they are and will pushback to make sure it doesn't change.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:While not in favor, a ranked choice lottery would be fascinating. Our family is in the Cardinal district. Our top 4 choices would be Cardinal, Nottingham, Tuckahoe and Glebe. Wouldn't exactly get you the cross-county choices you're looking for.

My guess is your average Discovery parent would choose Discovery, Jamestown, Nottingham and Tuckahoe.

Other than probably a small proportion, APS families are going to choose the schools near their homes. OP, you may be new to this but this has been rehashed endless times over the last 15yrs. APS families overwhelmingly value proximity more than any other single factor in choosing their child's school. Best of luck as the latest to try and push this rock uphill.

This. A while ago I read an assessment of the impact on New Orleans schools when they went to an all lottery system after Katrina. By and large, families picked schools near their homes so it didn't do much to desegregate.

Right! This is precisely the point that has been hammered over and over again.

It is reasonable to expect that most families would choose close schools, especially after such extreme turmoil and upheaval as a devastating hurricane that's taken years to recover from, and at the start of a new choice admissions program. People are more comfortable with what they are already familiar with.

Regardless, instead of going to the first negative example people can think of or pops up in an internet search, people should dig a bit deeper. Learn more about the various efforts and the successes, dare to open their minds a bit about possibilities and what things might be equally or more important than buying their kid's public school. The Century Foundation in particular has followed this issue and has compiled a great deal of helpful information. Let's spend less time arguing our existing unproven theories and personal opinions and spend that time instead reading more about it. Then come back and debate with more knowledge and credibility.

https://tcf.org/search/louisville+KY+school+system/
https://tcf.org/content/report/school-integration-practice-lessons-nine-districts/
https://tcf.org/content/report/cambridge-public-schools/?agreed=1

https://tcf.org/content/report/louisville-kentucky-reflection-school-integration/
"A group of students who graduated high school in the district’s first year of integration have since formed an organization, Pioneers of Desegregation and Forced Busing.62 The group’s members felt as though going to an integrated school opened their eyes to how things were outside of their community63"

And after a Supreme Court ruling against Louisville's integration efforts:
"But any assertion that the journey toward integration had ended was far from the truth. In a community where some parents78 had grown up in Louisville’s integrated environment, students and community members fought hard to maintain some version of integration. As a result, the district developed a new plan that based integration on more than just race. In its revised form, the district placed schools in geographic clusters79 or groups of diverse neighborhoods based on80 census block characteristics including percentage minority residents, household income, and adult education level. Parents would be able to list preferences for specific schools in their cluster in an application, and the district would account for both family school choice and diversity goals. While there is no guarantee that a student would be assigned their first choice school, most families seem satisfied with a process that gave them greater variety and control over their child’s educational future.81"

And since 1990, Louisville's housing segregation has decreased by 20%. Perhaps the first step does not have to be the County Board's. Perhaps APS can have greater impact on housing segregation in Arlington than anyone dares to think. If you create a district whereby there are few disparities between schools, all schools become more equally desired and sought-after; so it doesn't matter so much which neighborhood you buy into (which is probably what people are really afraid of).

I realize Great Schools is not a perfect tool, but I think it is worth noting that 57% of the schools in Jefferson County are "below average" https://www.greatschools.org/kentucky/louisville/jefferson-county/

I don't think your plan to make all the schools in Arlington equally crappy is going to catch on.

You didn't waste any time looking for data to support your side, did you? Did you then take any time to consider the context of those numbers? Demographics of Louisville and Arlington are different. Read the stats in the TCF articles (plural articles...not just the one you want to pick out to suit your argument). It isn't your middle class white child who's not passing. Meanwhile, minority students are achieving better. White students are expressing positive benefits.

Hmm, so Arlington is similar enough that we should do what they are doing but different enough that we should ignore the fact that most of their schools are below average even when benchmarked against other schools in Kentucky.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When a group of S Arlington parents tried to raise this issue about 7-8 years ago they were shouted down by affordable housing advocates, school board members and S Arlington residents. Not N Arlington families.

They weren't just shouted down. They were called racist NIMBYs.

The only SB member who has really tried to make headway on this issue is RG. And he was not treated kindly by the chair at the time. People like to vaguely blame N. Arlington, but the entities listed above really do the work of maintaining the status quo.

RG helped to make some awful decisions with regards to zoning at that time. He is refusing to budge on the 15 kids per grade who should go to W&L with all of their neighbors and middle school but are zoned for Yorktown based on a crappy 2017 zoning decision. These kids will lose their community of friends they start high school. It's an island of zoning (Ashlawn- Kenmore).

Some neighbors have been trying to work with him unsuccessfully.

https://www.insidenova.com/opinion/letters_to_editor/letter-arlington-school-boundary-efforts-do-not-put-needs-of-students-first/article_371911ae-47ab-11ec-9877-f7d76a1cc327.html

If you're looking for a friend in RG for this, you're barking up the wrong tree. RG digs in whenever he sees individual little neighborhood pockets lobbying, especially if they are organized. Even if it makes sense, he will be against it because he thinks that they are looking at things from a "benefit my child" position and its his job to look at it from a "benefits the county" perspective. Even in cases where the staff made a mistake, or the county and your child's interests are aligned.

I remember that group complaining about being zoned away from Swanson in MS boundaries in 2017. If I remember it, you can definitely bet that staff does. They are going to dig in just to piss you guys off and because they have a score to settle. Sounds petty but I'm serious.

You might have better luck with Monique or Barbara or maybe David Priddy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:While not in favor, a ranked choice lottery would be fascinating. Our family is in the Cardinal district. Our top 4 choices would be Cardinal, Nottingham, Tuckahoe and Glebe. Wouldn't exactly get you the cross-county choices you're looking for.

My guess is your average Discovery parent would choose Discovery, Jamestown, Nottingham and Tuckahoe.

Other than probably a small proportion, APS families are going to choose the schools near their homes. OP, you may be new to this but this has been rehashed endless times over the last 15yrs. APS families overwhelmingly value proximity more than any other single factor in choosing their child's school. Best of luck as the latest to try and push this rock uphill.

This. A while ago I read an assessment of the impact on New Orleans schools when they went to an all lottery system after Katrina. By and large, families picked schools near their homes so it didn't do much to desegregate.

Right! This is precisely the point that has been hammered over and over again.

It is reasonable to expect that most families would choose close schools, especially after such extreme turmoil and upheaval as a devastating hurricane that's taken years to recover from, and at the start of a new choice admissions program. People are more comfortable with what they are already familiar with.

Regardless, instead of going to the first negative example people can think of or pops up in an internet search, people should dig a bit deeper. Learn more about the various efforts and the successes, dare to open their minds a bit about possibilities and what things might be equally or more important than buying their kid's public school. The Century Foundation in particular has followed this issue and has compiled a great deal of helpful information. Let's spend less time arguing our existing unproven theories and personal opinions and spend that time instead reading more about it. Then come back and debate with more knowledge and credibility.

https://tcf.org/search/louisville+KY+school+system/
https://tcf.org/content/report/school-integration-practice-lessons-nine-districts/
https://tcf.org/content/report/cambridge-public-schools/?agreed=1

https://tcf.org/content/report/louisville-kentucky-reflection-school-integration/
"A group of students who graduated high school in the district’s first year of integration have since formed an organization, Pioneers of Desegregation and Forced Busing.62 The group’s members felt as though going to an integrated school opened their eyes to how things were outside of their community63"

And after a Supreme Court ruling against Louisville's integration efforts:
"But any assertion that the journey toward integration had ended was far from the truth. In a community where some parents78 had grown up in Louisville’s integrated environment, students and community members fought hard to maintain some version of integration. As a result, the district developed a new plan that based integration on more than just race. In its revised form, the district placed schools in geographic clusters79 or groups of diverse neighborhoods based on80 census block characteristics including percentage minority residents, household income, and adult education level. Parents would be able to list preferences for specific schools in their cluster in an application, and the district would account for both family school choice and diversity goals. While there is no guarantee that a student would be assigned their first choice school, most families seem satisfied with a process that gave them greater variety and control over their child’s educational future.81"

And since 1990, Louisville's housing segregation has decreased by 20%. Perhaps the first step does not have to be the County Board's. Perhaps APS can have greater impact on housing segregation in Arlington than anyone dares to think. If you create a district whereby there are few disparities between schools, all schools become more equally desired and sought-after; so it doesn't matter so much which neighborhood you buy into (which is probably what people are really afraid of).

I realize Great Schools is not a perfect tool, but I think it is worth noting that 57% of the schools in Jefferson County are "below average" https://www.greatschools.org/kentucky/louisville/jefferson-county/

I don't think your plan to make all the schools in Arlington equally crappy is going to catch on.

You didn't waste any time looking for data to support your side, did you? Did you then take any time to consider the context of those numbers? Demographics of Louisville and Arlington are different. Read the stats in the TCF articles (plural articles...not just the one you want to pick out to suit your argument). It isn't your middle class white child who's not passing. Meanwhile, minority students are achieving better. White students are expressing positive benefits.

Hmm, so Arlington is similar enough that we should do what they are doing but different enough that we should ignore the fact that most of their schools are below average even when benchmarked against other schools in Kentucky.

I can only hope you're being so dense and obtuse intentionally.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:While not in favor, a ranked choice lottery would be fascinating. Our family is in the Cardinal district. Our top 4 choices would be Cardinal, Nottingham, Tuckahoe and Glebe. Wouldn't exactly get you the cross-county choices you're looking for.

My guess is your average Discovery parent would choose Discovery, Jamestown, Nottingham and Tuckahoe.

Other than probably a small proportion, APS families are going to choose the schools near their homes. OP, you may be new to this but this has been rehashed endless times over the last 15yrs. APS families overwhelmingly value proximity more than any other single factor in choosing their child's school. Best of luck as the latest to try and push this rock uphill.

This. A while ago I read an assessment of the impact on New Orleans schools when they went to an all lottery system after Katrina. By and large, families picked schools near their homes so it didn't do much to desegregate.

Right! This is precisely the point that has been hammered over and over again.

It is reasonable to expect that most families would choose close schools, especially after such extreme turmoil and upheaval as a devastating hurricane that's taken years to recover from, and at the start of a new choice admissions program. People are more comfortable with what they are already familiar with.

Regardless, instead of going to the first negative example people can think of or pops up in an internet search, people should dig a bit deeper. Learn more about the various efforts and the successes, dare to open their minds a bit about possibilities and what things might be equally or more important than buying their kid's public school. The Century Foundation in particular has followed this issue and has compiled a great deal of helpful information. Let's spend less time arguing our existing unproven theories and personal opinions and spend that time instead reading more about it. Then come back and debate with more knowledge and credibility.

https://tcf.org/search/louisville+KY+school+system/
https://tcf.org/content/report/school-integration-practice-lessons-nine-districts/
https://tcf.org/content/report/cambridge-public-schools/?agreed=1

https://tcf.org/content/report/louisville-kentucky-reflection-school-integration/
"A group of students who graduated high school in the district’s first year of integration have since formed an organization, Pioneers of Desegregation and Forced Busing.62 The group’s members felt as though going to an integrated school opened their eyes to how things were outside of their community63"

And after a Supreme Court ruling against Louisville's integration efforts:
"But any assertion that the journey toward integration had ended was far from the truth. In a community where some parents78 had grown up in Louisville’s integrated environment, students and community members fought hard to maintain some version of integration. As a result, the district developed a new plan that based integration on more than just race. In its revised form, the district placed schools in geographic clusters79 or groups of diverse neighborhoods based on80 census block characteristics including percentage minority residents, household income, and adult education level. Parents would be able to list preferences for specific schools in their cluster in an application, and the district would account for both family school choice and diversity goals. While there is no guarantee that a student would be assigned their first choice school, most families seem satisfied with a process that gave them greater variety and control over their child’s educational future.81"

And since 1990, Louisville's housing segregation has decreased by 20%. Perhaps the first step does not have to be the County Board's. Perhaps APS can have greater impact on housing segregation in Arlington than anyone dares to think. If you create a district whereby there are few disparities between schools, all schools become more equally desired and sought-after; so it doesn't matter so much which neighborhood you buy into (which is probably what people are really afraid of).

I realize Great Schools is not a perfect tool, but I think it is worth noting that 57% of the schools in Jefferson County are "below average" https://www.greatschools.org/kentucky/louisville/jefferson-county/

I don't think your plan to make all the schools in Arlington equally crappy is going to catch on.

You didn't waste any time looking for data to support your side, did you? Did you then take any time to consider the context of those numbers? Demographics of Louisville and Arlington are different. Read the stats in the TCF articles (plural articles...not just the one you want to pick out to suit your argument). It isn't your middle class white child who's not passing. Meanwhile, minority students are achieving better. White students are expressing positive benefits.

Hmm, so Arlington is similar enough that we should do what they are doing but different enough that we should ignore the fact that most of their schools are below average even when benchmarked against other schools in Kentucky.

I can only hope you're being so dense and obtuse intentionally.

Black and Hispanic students are scoring below the state averages for their groups in all of areas test on Great Schools. White and Asian students are right at the state average. I didn't see that in the completely unbiased reports that you posted, so just wanted to point it out. There's no magic bullet. It looks like in Jefferson County the highest test score schools have FARMS rates in low to mid 20% range and the lowest have FARMS rates in the 80-90% range. Turns out that even after all the upheaval they are still very segregated.

Also... LOL at being mad that someone is citing different sources than you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm going to toss in a very non-PC but additional issue that explains why many parents of high performing or privileged children might oppose this. One thing we all saw starkly during virtual last year, and we're now hearing about this year, is that the teachers are absolutely focused on the lowest performing and struggling kids. This has always been the case, but the learning loss from the pandemic has made the gap even greater.

If I have a high performing kid right now in a so-called good, low-FRL school who isn't getting appropriate instruction because the teachers have to focus on the bottom, do I really want to put my child into a school that is so-called lower performing where the proportion of high achieving to struggling students is even greater? It's unfortunate that while it might be good for my child's seatmate, it could actually be detrimental to him because the school's approach will be "he'll be fine", which is already what we are seeing in our NA school. On a philosophical grand scheme, it's laudable. At a true family-focused level, it might not be.

This is absolutely the case. I come from a family of teachers and they all admit privately what no one will say publicly. Since tracking is verboten, the educational establishment has concocted this fantasy that a single teacher to be 7 different people at once in order to serve a heterogeneous classroom on their own terms. Nope.