Can we spreadload FRL% across APS? Arlington / Education Newbie here

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:One teacher cannot provide tailored lessons to 20+ kids at widely varying skill levels. Schools either need to do tracking or parents will make an effort to get their kid in a school that has more kids at their grade level.

That’s what APS wants, though. They have a standard to meet and are not required to do more. People who want more for their kids will need to leave (which is what we will eventually do).

There was a lot said about this at tonight’s gifted services work session. I missed the part where they talked about elementary but big changes are probably coming to middle school. I think you can find a recording of the meeting if you didn’t watch live and are interested.

Did the parts that you heard sound positive?

It depends on how you look at it. I’m still processing and trying to visualize what it will actually look like, pitfalls, etc. If the plan moves forward it would make gifted identification all but irrelevant in middle school since intensified classes would be open enrollment. As a parent with a gifted id’d middle schooler, I like the tentative plan for the transition year (next year), which is to increase the number of gifted kids in a cluster from 5-8 to 10-15 (not sure of the exact numbers, but in that ballpark). After next year they would institute the intensified classes.

I think it would result in a better learning experience for the kids in the new intensified classes. There's no way you don't end up with a classes that are stratified by socioeconomic class, though. Administrators can do outreach to try to move the needle, but the classes are going to be whiter and richer than the school as a whole. Should we refuse to offer more challenging classes to kid who would benefit because it doesn't look good when you break out the demographic data? I would say offer the classes and help who you can, but I'm not sure where APS will end up.

They basically said that if this happens they'd consider dropping the intensified classes which is really frustrating. Absolutely they need to do more outreach and encouragement and examine their identification process for bias. But it is also not surprising that kids from affluent families will be more prepared for a higher level of rigor than kids who've grown up with the toxic stress of poverty. The schools can't fix that. At least someone in the meeting did acknowledge that the on-level class can better meet the needs of the kids who stay at that level if there is not such a wide range the teacher needs to address.

I think it’s likely that highly educated parents of Arlington will enroll their kids in the intensified classes even if their child isn’t ready for it so it will create much of the same issue of teachers having to slow down material.

Enrollment should be based on teacher recommendations, like the 8th grade teachers make recommendations for their students as they register for their 9th grade classes. They don't HAVE to enroll in an AP or intensified class that's recommended; but at least they know their teachers think they should. And if parents have questions as to why a teacher has or has not recommended an intensified level, they can discuss it with the teacher. Case by case decisions could be made; but students shouldn't be allowed to enroll in a higher level class than the teacher/school admin recommends after that discussion with the parent and student.

As a parent who has had kids in both situations (not recommended for higher level but thought should have been; recommended for higher level but student didn't think so and was hesitant), this approach worked well. The first child (theoretically could have been recommended for AP knowledge-wise but wasn't even recommended for intensified) ultimately got the teacher's recommendation for intensified after discussing it. The second child asked the teacher why they recommended them for AP. After the discussion with the teacher, my child felt more confident and assured about it and went on to do very well in the AP class.
But in both instances, because it was going from 8th to 9th, the teacher recommendation was needed.

That policy could be made for 5th to 6th and each subsequent year through middle school. And yes, I get that there are concerns with teacher recommendations based on biases that may be perceived as prejudicial etc. But maybe having meaningful parent-teacher conferences during 3rd quarter during which teachers discuss their recommendations with the student and parent would help ensure every family has the opportunity to ask questions about the placement recommendations, discuss them, and teachers possibly alter their recommendations when appropriate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One teacher cannot provide tailored lessons to 20+ kids at widely varying skill levels. Schools either need to do tracking or parents will make an effort to get their kid in a school that has more kids at their grade level.

That’s what APS wants, though. They have a standard to meet and are not required to do more. People who want more for their kids will need to leave (which is what we will eventually do).

There was a lot said about this at tonight’s gifted services work session. I missed the part where they talked about elementary but big changes are probably coming to middle school. I think you can find a recording of the meeting if you didn’t watch live and are interested.

Did the parts that you heard sound positive?

It depends on how you look at it. I’m still processing and trying to visualize what it will actually look like, pitfalls, etc. If the plan moves forward it would make gifted identification all but irrelevant in middle school since intensified classes would be open enrollment. As a parent with a gifted id’d middle schooler, I like the tentative plan for the transition year (next year), which is to increase the number of gifted kids in a cluster from 5-8 to 10-15 (not sure of the exact numbers, but in that ballpark). After next year they would institute the intensified classes.

I think it would result in a better learning experience for the kids in the new intensified classes. There's no way you don't end up with a classes that are stratified by socioeconomic class, though. Administrators can do outreach to try to move the needle, but the classes are going to be whiter and richer than the school as a whole. Should we refuse to offer more challenging classes to kid who would benefit because it doesn't look good when you break out the demographic data? I would say offer the classes and help who you can, but I'm not sure where APS will end up.

They basically said that if this happens they'd consider dropping the intensified classes which is really frustrating. Absolutely they need to do more outreach and encouragement and examine their identification process for bias. But it is also not surprising that kids from affluent families will be more prepared for a higher level of rigor than kids who've grown up with the toxic stress of poverty. The schools can't fix that. At least someone in the meeting did acknowledge that the on-level class can better meet the needs of the kids who stay at that level if there is not such a wide range the teacher needs to address.

I think it’s likely that highly educated parents of Arlington will enroll their kids in the intensified classes even if their child isn’t ready for it so it will create much of the same issue of teachers having to slow down material.

The underlying issue is that many of the kids with highly educated parents ARE ready for it and many of the kids who are English learners with immigrant parents are not. There's no magic wand you can wave to have a 6th grader catch up and reach their full potential if they are behind for whatever reason.

That's true; but only a part of the equation. In our experience, intensified high school classes are not all that much more challenging and, in fact, are probably more in line with what the general ed classes should be. We see that particularly in English, history, and science. So, either general ed needs to be mainly for the kids who really need more time to learn English, etc.; or a lot more kids should be in intensified classes.

[Anonymous]

Enrollment should be based on teacher recommendations, like the 8th grade teachers make recommendations for their students as they register for their 9th grade classes. They don't HAVE to enroll in an AP or intensified class that's recommended; but at least they know their teachers think they should. And if parents have questions as to why a teacher has or has not recommended an intensified level, they can discuss it with the teacher. Case by case decisions could be made; but students shouldn't be allowed to enroll in a higher level class than the teacher/school admin recommends after that discussion with the parent and student.

This is reasonable, however it was made clear at Tuesday’s work session that families will make the ultimate choice. It really will be open enrollment, supposedly with teacher and counselor guidance but no barriers to anyone choosing their preferred class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Enrollment should be based on teacher recommendations, like the 8th grade teachers make recommendations for their students as they register for their 9th grade classes. They don't HAVE to enroll in an AP or intensified class that's recommended; but at least they know their teachers think they should. And if parents have questions as to why a teacher has or has not recommended an intensified level, they can discuss it with the teacher. Case by case decisions could be made; but students shouldn't be allowed to enroll in a higher level class than the teacher/school admin recommends after that discussion with the parent and student.

This is reasonable, however it was made clear at Tuesday’s work session that families will make the ultimate choice. It really will be open enrollment, supposedly with teacher and counselor guidance but no barriers to anyone choosing their preferred class.

PP here: That's because APS wants to appease the parents and to avoid more work on behalf of teachers and the and arguments and vitriol directed at them by parents. I wouldn't expect APS to establish a real policy; just saying what I think the policy SHOULD be. Personally, I think a lot of (most?) students really do need more challenge in middle school; so at this point, let 'em enroll!

[Anonymous]

Wow this thread went off topic. Surprised not surprised.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Wow this thread went off topic. Surprised not surprised.

It’s all related. If APS signals that everyone has to go at the same pace it incentivizes parents to make sure their kid is not the outlier.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Enrollment should be based on teacher recommendations, like the 8th grade teachers make recommendations for their students as they register for their 9th grade classes. They don't HAVE to enroll in an AP or intensified class that's recommended; but at least they know their teachers think they should. And if parents have questions as to why a teacher has or has not recommended an intensified level, they can discuss it with the teacher. Case by case decisions could be made; but students shouldn't be allowed to enroll in a higher level class than the teacher/school admin recommends after that discussion with the parent and student.

This is reasonable, however it was made clear at Tuesday’s work session that families will make the ultimate choice. It really will be open enrollment, supposedly with teacher and counselor guidance but no barriers to anyone choosing their preferred class.

PP here: That's because APS wants to appease the parents and to avoid more work on behalf of teachers and the and arguments and vitriol directed at them by parents. I wouldn't expect APS to establish a real policy; just saying what I think the policy SHOULD be. Personally, I think a lot of (most?) students really do need more challenge in middle school; so at this point, let 'em enroll!

I'm not sure about other schools, but I'm not sure my kids teachers even know my kid particularly well. If my kid feels they can handle an intensified class, and they have the grades/pre-req to support it, I don't see why a teacher recommendation should be a barrier.
Teachers can be biased, especially against people of color or boys or kids that aren't the best behaved. Case in point, my daughter scored in the 99.9% for quantitative reasoning and verbal in her cogat in 4th grade. I talked to her teacher at the time about getting her identified as gifted because she met the threshold. Never happened. Brought it up in fifth grade, her teacher blamed covid, still nothing happened. She was put in regular math 6 this year, has a 100% in math without even trying. I emailed her TA about gifted services in middle school, was told that there wasn't a point since it only affected math, and you can self select into the higher math classes anyways. I'm not saying that my kids elementary school had a bias against her, but its strange that she didn't get identified, and I can only really guess at why. I'm sure there are lots of other kids that slip through the cracks like this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

PP here: That's because APS wants to appease the parents and to avoid more work on behalf of teachers and the and arguments and vitriol directed at them by parents. I wouldn't expect APS to establish a real policy; just saying what I think the policy SHOULD be. Personally, I think a lot of (most?) students really do need more challenge in middle school; so at this point, let 'em enroll!

I'm not sure about other schools, but I'm not sure my kids teachers even know my kid particularly well. If my kid feels they can handle an intensified class, and they have the grades/pre-req to support it, I don't see why a teacher recommendation should be a barrier.
Teachers can be biased, especially against people of color or boys or kids that aren't the best behaved. Case in point, my daughter scored in the 99.9% for quantitative reasoning and verbal in her cogat in 4th grade. I talked to her teacher at the time about getting her identified as gifted because she met the threshold. Never happened. Brought it up in fifth grade, her teacher blamed covid, still nothing happened. She was put in regular math 6 this year, has a 100% in math without even trying. I emailed her TA about gifted services in middle school, was told that there wasn't a point since it only affected math, and you can self select into the higher math classes anyways. I'm not saying that my kids elementary school had a bias against her, but its strange that she didn't get identified, and I can only really guess at why. I'm sure there are lots of other kids that slip through the cracks like this.

Same experience with my son, although he was ID as gifted in math in ES. He was not initially put into the higher track in 6th grade. This really surprised me because he was always pass-advanced on SOLs + the gifted ID. I just asked his MS counselor about it at our initial meeting before 6th grade and she immediately moved him to the higher level. I think in his case it was probably classroom behavior that kept his teacher from referring him (ADHD). He's a college freshman now, majoring in applied math.

I can easily see a parent with less confidence interacting with school staff not pushing back against the placement. And I really didn't have to push back hard, just asked why and the counselor saw that the teacher rec was inappropriate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Enrollment should be based on teacher recommendations, like the 8th grade teachers make recommendations for their students as they register for their 9th grade classes. They don't HAVE to enroll in an AP or intensified class that's recommended; but at least they know their teachers think they should. And if parents have questions as to why a teacher has or has not recommended an intensified level, they can discuss it with the teacher. Case by case decisions could be made; but students shouldn't be allowed to enroll in a higher level class than the teacher/school admin recommends after that discussion with the parent and student.

This is reasonable, however it was made clear at Tuesday’s work session that families will make the ultimate choice. It really will be open enrollment, supposedly with teacher and counselor guidance but no barriers to anyone choosing their preferred class.

PP here: That's because APS wants to appease the parents and to avoid more work on behalf of teachers and the and arguments and vitriol directed at them by parents. I wouldn't expect APS to establish a real policy; just saying what I think the policy SHOULD be. Personally, I think a lot of (most?) students really do need more challenge in middle school; so at this point, let 'em enroll!

I'm not sure about other schools, but I'm not sure my kids teachers even know my kid particularly well. If my kid feels they can handle an intensified class, and they have the grades/pre-req to support it, I don't see why a teacher recommendation should be a barrier.
Teachers can be biased, especially against people of color or boys or kids that aren't the best behaved. Case in point, my daughter scored in the 99.9% for quantitative reasoning and verbal in her cogat in 4th grade. I talked to her teacher at the time about getting her identified as gifted because she met the threshold. Never happened. Brought it up in fifth grade, her teacher blamed covid, still nothing happened. She was put in regular math 6 this year, has a 100% in math without even trying. I emailed her TA about gifted services in middle school, was told that there wasn't a point since it only affected math, and you can self select into the higher math classes anyways. I'm not saying that my kids elementary school had a bias against her, but its strange that she didn't get identified, and I can only really guess at why. I'm sure there are lots of other kids that slip through the cracks like this.

Like I said, the process would include an opportunity for the parents/student to discuss the recommendation with the teacher. Make your case then. The admin team at your school can then determine whether they believe it's appropriate for your child or not, willing to let them try it or not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

PP here: That's because APS wants to appease the parents and to avoid more work on behalf of teachers and the and arguments and vitriol directed at them by parents. I wouldn't expect APS to establish a real policy; just saying what I think the policy SHOULD be. Personally, I think a lot of (most?) students really do need more challenge in middle school; so at this point, let 'em enroll!

I'm not sure about other schools, but I'm not sure my kids teachers even know my kid particularly well. If my kid feels they can handle an intensified class, and they have the grades/pre-req to support it, I don't see why a teacher recommendation should be a barrier.
Teachers can be biased, especially against people of color or boys or kids that aren't the best behaved. Case in point, my daughter scored in the 99.9% for quantitative reasoning and verbal in her cogat in 4th grade. I talked to her teacher at the time about getting her identified as gifted because she met the threshold. Never happened. Brought it up in fifth grade, her teacher blamed covid, still nothing happened. She was put in regular math 6 this year, has a 100% in math without even trying. I emailed her TA about gifted services in middle school, was told that there wasn't a point since it only affected math, and you can self select into the higher math classes anyways. I'm not saying that my kids elementary school had a bias against her, but its strange that she didn't get identified, and I can only really guess at why. I'm sure there are lots of other kids that slip through the cracks like this.

Same experience with my son, although he was ID as gifted in math in ES. He was not initially put into the higher track in 6th grade. This really surprised me because he was always pass-advanced on SOLs + the gifted ID. I just asked his MS counselor about it at our initial meeting before 6th grade and she immediately moved him to the higher level. I think in his case it was probably classroom behavior that kept his teacher from referring him (ADHD). He's a college freshman now, majoring in applied math.

I can easily see a parent with less confidence interacting with school staff not pushing back against the placement. And I really didn't have to push back hard, just asked why and the counselor saw that the teacher rec was inappropriate.

There are factors other than test scores that go into a teacher recommending students for advanced classes. When my daughter's teacher recommended AP World History and she didn't think she should take it, she talked with the teacher who explained why they recommended her and thought she should enroll. She wasn't an all -A history student; but she managed her time well, was organized, was a good writer and recommended for intensified English, was willing to ask questions or seek guidance from the teacher when needed, etc. All those things are desirable and make a student a good candidate for higher level classes.

Parents have to sign-off on course selections; so there can easily be information provided for questions. And, again, having teacher conferences later in the year during course registration time would also help.