Word of caution for aspiring CS majors

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Just returned from a college reunion, and my friends' kids who majored in CS and graduated last year and this year are all un- or under-employed. It seems pretty obvious to me that low-level CS jobs are the first to be gobbled up by AI. If you go to a top school, it truly does not matter what you major in. Most of those kids who want top jobs in tech, finance, consulting will get them. Majoring in something skill-based is more important if you attend even a slightly lower-ranked school. This is why people work so hard to secure spots in the Ivy-plus schools.

Yes indeed, and not just for jobs—50% of ivy/plus kids go to grad school, PhD MD JD, and typically the “average” grad of these schools still land top grad &professional school placement.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's just a dip. Happened in 2000/2001 and of course in 2008. Tech companies hired too many people during COVID and now the job market is crap as they overcorrect. It will come back. AI is just the hot new thing, like cloud was a few years ago.

It’s not a dip in the market, it’s a boom of graduates. This is the generation of kids who grew up playing video games, love spending time on computers, and were told 6, 8, 10 years ago that we needed many more CS graduates, which at the time we did. But over the past 6 years there’s been plenty of graduates to fill that need, while CS undergraduate enrollment had exploded. Definitely oversupply right now.

Exactly. From the relentless threads around here, everyone got that memo. But of course the real goal was wage suppression, the employers have what they want.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You don’t need a CS degree to do cybersecurity, cloud or most of that stuff.

My degree is in theater and I am the program manager of a huge IT project on a government project. I started at one of those computer training places I’ve hired many who do not have a CS degree. They are not all technical positions.

My just hired a project manager and they have a degree in psychology and minor in English.

I also have another project manager who does IT training and has a degree in European History and German.

The job market has changed since you were in college. There are so many graduates now with a CS or Business background. Why would they be hiring theater majors for PM roles? Or, English or Psych majors? I guess government pays so little they are getting the bottom of the barrel or something. So, maybe that's why our government doesn't run as efficiently.

I would never hire someone from one of those IT training places unless it was for a helpdesk role (which are all offshored, btw). All of the PM jobs I see require either a background in IT, CS, business or finance. I never see a PM role where the "degree required" says "English or Psych"; certainly not theater.

I worked in SV including FAANGs, never worked for the government. Maybe that's the difference.

The tech world is more complicated now and very little of it is "CS". When CS majors go to FAANG they grumble that they aren't doing any CS.

CS majors are often a poor fit for PM roles because PMs are managing products for users to interact with, and users... Arent CS majors.
Firms have PMs for user facing products, and Technical PMs for internal technology products. Of course if you work in B2B tech like Cloud APIs, then your user "PM" also needs to be technical.

CS majors from top SLACs make good PMs. Has technical knowledge and has a well rounded education.

CS majors from non SLACs also take non CS classes, like Gen Eds. Same as SLACs.

What non CS class are CS majors at SLACs having to take that others don't?

Ones where there are extensive readings, small seminars lead by professors, and writing read by professors and graded on more than mechanics.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You don’t need a CS degree to do cybersecurity, cloud or most of that stuff.

My degree is in theater and I am the program manager of a huge IT project on a government project. I started at one of those computer training places I’ve hired many who do not have a CS degree. They are not all technical positions.

My just hired a project manager and they have a degree in psychology and minor in English.

I also have another project manager who does IT training and has a degree in European History and German.

The job market has changed since you were in college. There are so many graduates now with a CS or Business background. Why would they be hiring theater majors for PM roles? Or, English or Psych majors? I guess government pays so little they are getting the bottom of the barrel or something. So, maybe that's why our government doesn't run as efficiently.

I would never hire someone from one of those IT training places unless it was for a helpdesk role (which are all offshored, btw). All of the PM jobs I see require either a background in IT, CS, business or finance. I never see a PM role where the "degree required" says "English or Psych"; certainly not theater.

I worked in SV including FAANGs, never worked for the government. Maybe that's the difference.

The tech world is more complicated now and very little of it is "CS". When CS majors go to FAANG they grumble that they aren't doing any CS.

CS majors are often a poor fit for PM roles because PMs are managing products for users to interact with, and users... Arent CS majors.
Firms have PMs for user facing products, and Technical PMs for internal technology products. Of course if you work in B2B tech like Cloud APIs, then your user "PM" also needs to be technical.

CS majors from top SLACs make good PMs. Has technical knowledge and has a well rounded education.

CS majors from non SLACs also take non CS classes, like Gen Eds. Same as SLACs.

What non CS class are CS majors at SLACs having to take that others don't?

Ones where there are extensive readings, small seminars lead by professors, and writing read by professors and graded on more than mechanics.

PP, DS's 100 level "academic writing" class at UMD had 17 students and was taught by a professor. Can't speak to the grading criteria beyond "mechanics".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's just a dip. Happened in 2000/2001 and of course in 2008. Tech companies hired too many people during COVID and now the job market is crap as they overcorrect. It will come back. AI is just the hot new thing, like cloud was a few years ago.

It’s not a dip in the market, it’s a boom of graduates. This is the generation of kids who grew up playing video games, love spending time on computers, and were told 6, 8, 10 years ago that we needed many more CS graduates, which at the time we did. But over the past 6 years there’s been plenty of graduates to fill that need, while CS undergraduate enrollment had exploded. Definitely oversupply right now.

Birth rate has been declining steadily, and they expect a college age cliff.

Those who are graduating now were born in 2002/3.



There will be even less CS grads in the next 10 to 15 years. At that point, today's grads will be in their 30s, still working age. There will still be CS jobs that need filling in that timeframe.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's just a dip. Happened in 2000/2001 and of course in 2008. Tech companies hired too many people during COVID and now the job market is crap as they overcorrect. It will come back. AI is just the hot new thing, like cloud was a few years ago.

It’s not a dip in the market, it’s a boom of graduates. This is the generation of kids who grew up playing video games, love spending time on computers, and were told 6, 8, 10 years ago that we needed many more CS graduates, which at the time we did. But over the past 6 years there’s been plenty of graduates to fill that need, while CS undergraduate enrollment had exploded. Definitely oversupply right now.

So, all those grads who majored in English who can't find good jobs.. is there any oversupply of English major grads?

I guess so, which is why some colleges are getting rid of their English major, and instead focusing on business or CS majors. Even SLACs are now offering CS major.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's just a dip. Happened in 2000/2001 and of course in 2008. Tech companies hired too many people during COVID and now the job market is crap as they overcorrect. It will come back. AI is just the hot new thing, like cloud was a few years ago.

It’s not a dip in the market, it’s a boom of graduates. This is the generation of kids who grew up playing video games, love spending time on computers, and were told 6, 8, 10 years ago that we needed many more CS graduates, which at the time we did. But over the past 6 years there’s been plenty of graduates to fill that need, while CS undergraduate enrollment had exploded. Definitely oversupply right now.

So, all those grads who majored in English who can't find good jobs.. is there any oversupply of English major grads?

I guess so, which is why some colleges are getting rid of their English major, and instead focusing on business or CS majors. Even SLACs are now offering CS major.

No reputable college worth its money is getting rid of the English major.

Even look at CMU. With very few social and humanities majors there, they still have an English department and major.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's just a dip. Happened in 2000/2001 and of course in 2008. Tech companies hired too many people during COVID and now the job market is crap as they overcorrect. It will come back. AI is just the hot new thing, like cloud was a few years ago.

It’s not a dip in the market, it’s a boom of graduates. This is the generation of kids who grew up playing video games, love spending time on computers, and were told 6, 8, 10 years ago that we needed many more CS graduates, which at the time we did. But over the past 6 years there’s been plenty of graduates to fill that need, while CS undergraduate enrollment had exploded. Definitely oversupply right now.

So, all those grads who majored in English who can't find good jobs.. is there any oversupply of English major grads?

I guess so, which is why some colleges are getting rid of their English major, and instead focusing on business or CS majors. Even SLACs are now offering CS major.

I think they’re finding jobs. Just not high-paying ones?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You do not need a degree in CS to work in IT.

That’s why the market is saturated. Get a degree in finance so you can have a background in financial applications. Get a degree in English and do technical writing.

Get a degree in math and be an analyst or SME.

Not really. Majority of the IT jobs will have simple education requirement. BS in CS or Information Systems. Sometimes in Math. I work in large IT firm and the only times we’ll even consider interviewing someone with non tech degree is if they have years and years of experience. A degree in English will not help you in any way to become a technical writer. You would need to have deep technical knowledge of systems architecture, software design, information security, etc etc.

That’s not true. A tech writer does not necessarily have to have deep technical knowledge of systems architecture, software design, information security. There are tech writers doing user documentation and online help, etc.

I’m a tech writer who didn’t take a single college course in English or technology. It’s a broad field.

This does explain why most technical documentation is quite poor. Even my company's product documentation is horrifying. No one uses it, they just open a support ticket for how to do X.

Ignorant comment.

In what way, Shakespeare?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You don’t need a CS degree to do cybersecurity, cloud or most of that stuff.

My degree is in theater and I am the program manager of a huge IT project on a government project. I started at one of those computer training places I’ve hired many who do not have a CS degree. They are not all technical positions.

My just hired a project manager and they have a degree in psychology and minor in English.

I also have another project manager who does IT training and has a degree in European History and German.

The job market has changed since you were in college. There are so many graduates now with a CS or Business background. Why would they be hiring theater majors for PM roles? Or, English or Psych majors? I guess government pays so little they are getting the bottom of the barrel or something. So, maybe that's why our government doesn't run as efficiently.

I would never hire someone from one of those IT training places unless it was for a helpdesk role (which are all offshored, btw). All of the PM jobs I see require either a background in IT, CS, business or finance. I never see a PM role where the "degree required" says "English or Psych"; certainly not theater.

I worked in SV including FAANGs, never worked for the government. Maybe that's the difference.

Nice dig on gov't employees, but the poster didn't say he/she was a fed. It was a "government project".

Could be why "government projects" cost are astronomical. They are hiring people with no experience, so of course it's going to take longer and not be done correctly the first time. Lots of re-work. Painful for those who see this. These contract companies hiring people with very little experience, charge like $400/ hour for them, and take twice as long to do the work. It's a cash cow for these contract companies.

It's also driving a certification industry. You learn just enough to get the necessary certifications. Once everyone has that certificate, then there will be another certificate. Do you have a relevant degee or experience? No, but I have the government required certifications. "Good enough."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My kid just graduated from William and Mary with a double major in CS and Math. He has a job lined up with the Federal Gov't paying about 80K. He feels very fortunate, as most of his CS friends are still looking for jobs. I agree with many of the above posters that the current problems are likely just cyclical, but its a problem right now for new CS grads. Also, the ability to show personality is a huge advantage, one which my son and his friends don't really have.

Congrats to your kid. Mine just graduated from UVA with a CS degree with 3.8 GPA and he is still looking for a job. It is very tough out there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You don’t need a CS degree to do cybersecurity, cloud or most of that stuff.

My degree is in theater and I am the program manager of a huge IT project on a government project. I started at one of those computer training places I’ve hired many who do not have a CS degree. They are not all technical positions.

My just hired a project manager and they have a degree in psychology and minor in English.

I also have another project manager who does IT training and has a degree in European History and German.

The job market has changed since you were in college. There are so many graduates now with a CS or Business background. Why would they be hiring theater majors for PM roles? Or, English or Psych majors? I guess government pays so little they are getting the bottom of the barrel or something. So, maybe that's why our government doesn't run as efficiently.

I would never hire someone from one of those IT training places unless it was for a helpdesk role (which are all offshored, btw). All of the PM jobs I see require either a background in IT, CS, business or finance. I never see a PM role where the "degree required" says "English or Psych"; certainly not theater.

I worked in SV including FAANGs, never worked for the government. Maybe that's the difference.

The tech world is more complicated now and very little of it is "CS". When CS majors go to FAANG they grumble that they aren't doing any CS.

CS majors are often a poor fit for PM roles because PMs are managing products for users to interact with, and users... Arent CS majors.
Firms have PMs for user facing products, and Technical PMs for internal technology products. Of course if you work in B2B tech like Cloud APIs, then your user "PM" also needs to be technical.

CS majors from top SLACs make good PMs. Has technical knowledge and has a well rounded education.

CS majors from non SLACs also take non CS classes, like Gen Eds. Same as SLACs.

What non CS class are CS majors at SLACs having to take that others don't?

Ones where there are extensive readings, small seminars lead by professors, and writing read by professors and graded on more than mechanics.

Ok, so you are wrong to think this isn't happening at non LACs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
There will be even less CS grads in the next 10 to 15 years. At that point, today's grads will be in their 30s, still working age. There will still be CS jobs that need filling in that timeframe.

CS is a job that does not have a competitive moat. Those jobs today have moved to Sofia, Bucharest, Budapest and Prague. In 10-15 years, even more will be moved somewhere new elsewhere.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's just a dip. Happened in 2000/2001 and of course in 2008. Tech companies hired too many people during COVID and now the job market is crap as they overcorrect. It will come back. AI is just the hot new thing, like cloud was a few years ago.

It’s not a dip in the market, it’s a boom of graduates. This is the generation of kids who grew up playing video games, love spending time on computers, and were told 6, 8, 10 years ago that we needed many more CS graduates, which at the time we did. But over the past 6 years there’s been plenty of graduates to fill that need, while CS undergraduate enrollment had exploded. Definitely oversupply right now.

So, all those grads who majored in English who can't find good jobs.. is there any oversupply of English major grads?

I guess so, which is why some colleges are getting rid of their English major, and instead focusing on business or CS majors. Even SLACs are now offering CS major.

No reputable college worth its money is getting rid of the English major.

Even look at CMU. With very few social and humanities majors there, they still have an English department and major.

CMU also has an amazing performing arts department, including Theater. Even so, they had a whopping 16 English majors last year vs 64 theater majors.

CMU is also very well funded.

https://www.cmu.edu/ira/degrees-granted/pdf/ay2022-23-pdfs/dc-degrees-granted_ay22-23-12dec2023.pdf

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
There will be even less CS grads in the next 10 to 15 years. At that point, today's grads will be in their 30s, still working age. There will still be CS jobs that need filling in that timeframe.

CS is a job that does not have a competitive moat. Those jobs today have moved to Sofia, Bucharest, Budapest and Prague. In 10-15 years, even more will be moved somewhere new elsewhere.

Most low level IT jobs have already moved offshore. But, the highly skilled ones will stay here.