The White Lotus season 2

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not sure why my post didn’t work but was saying Cam comes onto Daphne and she’s delighted, and they’ve got the dream dynamic but they really really don’t. So then what is really the dream dynamic and is it even possible?

There is no dream dynamic. Other people suck. The show seem to be saying that you can compartmentalize/ignore the things that are negative about your spouse and continue to live a happy life.

My favorite scene from the last episode was when both couples were on the beach. Ethan was stewing and just glaring at Cameron & Daphne, who were acting like lovey teenagers and joking around. You could see the wheels turning in his head - “Why am I in trouble with my wife when I did nothing wrong, while this prick who banged a prostitute gets lavished with romantic attention from his wife? IT’S NOT FAIR.”

I hate how everyone is maintaining lies / unspoken truths on behalf of Cameron. No one seems to want to disrupt his Apple cart and clear the air. Instead, everyone tiptoes around the truth of Cameron’s shitty behavior. Maybe that’s real power.

Harper and Ethan are both angry and miserable. Cam and Daphne have a great love between them even though he’s flawed. They enjoy life.

Wow, I don't see it this way at all (DP, btw).

My feeling is that this is a snapshot in time of these two couples, and Ethan and Harper are in a period of turmoil and upheaval. It's clear they've been recently disconnected, that they (or for sure at least Harper) are struggling a bit to come to terms with their new wealth, and that they haven't been communicating well. There's also clearly a looming issue regarding kids that is linked to their lack of sex -- either they are not in agreement about wanting kids or there is something else going on because they aren't on the same page.But I wouldn't describe either of them as angry and miserable people generally, or even in their marriage. You see glimpses of a functional, positive relationship there. It may not look as sexy to others, but I relate more to the way Ethan and Harper will quickly kiss goodbye before parting than the way Cam and Daphne are all over each other. I relate to the side-by-side reading/working in bed coupled with some gossip and discussion. I sense that they have pretty similar politics and world outlooks, and that they like and respect each other. The attraction is an issue, especially Ethan toward Harper, but I anticipate it's not that he's unattracted -- there is something else going on.

Cameron and Daphne are different. There's obviously real affection but there's also a lot of artifice, I think. Especially on Daphne's side. She's a real cipher and you can tell in how different she is when she's alone with Harper (much lower energy, moodier, some anger in there too) that the hot, sexy, love bunny things she does with Cameron is not just who she is -- it's a version, but it's not the whole story. And meanwhile, watch the energy Cameron has with Daphne versus with Harper or with Lucia and Mia. It's the same energy. He's just a horny dude. He's more familiar with Daphne but the energy is the same -- I want you. The only time this shifted was when they talked about Daphne's emergency c-section. But even that was centered around Cameron's needs -- I want you, I can't lose you. I don't get that sense of mutual respect. Cameron is the center of their marriage. His needs. Daphne finds ways to meet her needs on the margins, but importantly, her needs are not met in or by the marriage, except insofar as it has facilitated motherhood.

I don't think either marriage is ideal, at all. But if I absolutely had to choose, I'd choose Ethan/Harper because I think with a basis of shared goals and mutual respect, you can work through a lot of stuff. I know I have in my marriage. What Daphne and Cameron has looks desirable in the moment -- all the lovey touching and compliments. But I think longterm I would not want to be in Daphne's position. It would eat me up. Sure, my husband desires me. But he desires everything. I don't find that dynamic remotely appealing.

I think this is kind of an oversimplification of the point. I'm not sure it is artifice between Daphne and Cam. I think with Daphne her eyes are open and you are right she is a cypher and is different when she's on her own and you can see there is more going on there then she lets on. But I do feel like she loves him and has simply organized her life so she has all her needs met. I do think that's accurate that Cam is all about himself, but I do think he cares about her feelings, when Daphne is upset with him he feels compelled to take action to address it (the wine tasting), when she's acting suspicious he goes out of his way to provide her assurances, when Lucia approaches him his anger is about how this will effect his wife. I think some of this is self preservation but I do think Daphne's happiness is important to him and that he does demonstrate that. I do not think he is the center of the marriage and that she is on the margins, but I do think that Daphne evens the scales when she sees that something has created an imbalance (ie, I will not be the cheated upon wife, but I will be the woman in a couple where both parties cheat). She actually I think to the contrary strives to ensure there is equity, even if Cameron isn't entirely aware of it. Which is why I think this might end with HER trying to seduce Ethan.

Harper and Ethan I think you are giving a very rosy impression to. Ethan does not communicate an he is carrying around a lot of dark anger. And he is taking it out on Harper by criticizing her and withholding emotional intimacy. They are better PEOPLE (connected to the world, care about other people, intellectually engaged) but I am not convinced Ethan is any better of a partner than Cameron. He gets to say that because he didn't cheat he did nothing wrong, when in fact he lied to her, he did get kissed, he took a bunch of drugs with h**kers, he became a gregarious engaged person, something Harper wants desperately from him, with these other people. And then again, lied to her. He decides she cheated on him with someone she clearly loathes and is just riding her about this and accusing her of hooking up with Cameron. Notably, she never actually accuses him of anything, just asks questions after finding the wrapper, even after seeing him talking to Lucia and Mia she just asks him not to gaslight her. He immediately asks her if she hooked up with Cameron though.

Longterm I would not want to be in either of these positions, but I'm actually not sure I would choose a ticking time bomb like Ethan who reads but treats me like crap over an out-in-the-open rogue who might cheat on me but actually loves me like Cameron. Not really any good choices there though.

You can call this a snapshot in time, but the lack of trust is more than a snapshot. That's a personality flaw.

I disagree generally with your read but am honestly disturbed by your characterization in the bolded. That is an extremely messed up dynamic to me, where Cameron trying to keep his cheating (with a paid escort) a secret is viewed as "caring about his wife's feelings." Or bribing/distracting her with a fun outing is viewed the same way. As a person in a marriage, I could never view that behavior so generously. I don't consider this situation to be emotional abuse, but the way you are describing it is line with how abusers justify their behavior to their victims -- I lied to protect you, look at all I do for you to make up for it, I know I'm flawed but see the good in me too, baby. Like just reading that made me actually more horrified by Daphne and Cameron's marriage. Yuck yuck yuck, no way. Call me old fashioned if you want, but I don't think here is anything Daphne can do to get her own needs met that would make up for that dynamic.

I don't know where I said that their dynamic was not messed up or that it is something I personally would aspire to. They are living a life dramatically different than you or I could likely ever have or would ever accept. We're not talking about what we personally would accept here. But last season featured two marriages where people were deeply unhappy and made deep concessions to keep the wealth and lifestyle they were accustomed to so I'm not sure why it would shock you to see this again here.

People are not all the same, just because I cannot imagine myself being happy or accepting of a certain marital arrangement doesn't mean I can't fathom that a different person could find a way to make peace with it. I simply thing that Cameron and Daphne are equally flawed but that these flaws present differently. A lid for every pot so to speak. In my opinion the only person in the foursome who has behaved like an ethical and emotionally mature adult is Harper.

Agree on Harper being the only grownup.

I just think the description of Daphne and Cameron's marriage as "working" for Daphne is weird when juxtaposed with descriptions of Cameron's behavior as him caring for her feelings. I just can't wrap my head around the idea that a guy getting mad at the prostitute whose bill he hasn't paid, because she has confronted him in the near vicinity of his wife and might expose him, is an example of him caring about his wife's feelings. That's insane to me. It's not about whether some people make compromises in their marriage (obviously, everyone does). It's that I cannot characterize that behavior by Cameron as an act of caring for his wife.

It's similar to Bert trying to tell Dom that when Bert cheated exentsively on Dom's mom, it was okay and not hurtful because he didn't technically get caught. Like by not making it too obvious, he'd done something kind for Dom's mom. And Dom's response was that regardless of whether or not Bert ever technically got caught, his mom obviously knew and was miserable for decades.

There are a lot of things on this show where there are shades of gray and different ways of looking at it, but I don't think this is one of them. A person who is cheating and covering it up might tell themselves they are doing it to protect their spouse, but we all know that's BS.

I think there are a lot of kinds of relationships out there in the world and people choose to accept different things because of the totality of the circumstances in their life. Daphne has chosen to not be like Dom's mother by choosing to even the playing field. I think you are confusing my description as this being something that Daphne could find peace with as my saying that what Cameron or what she is doing is 'good'.

Cameron cares about her happiness. Not in a way that would be fulfilling to you, and not in a way that would be fulfilling to me, to be clear, but there are many places where people make misguided decisions because they are flawed. A hoarding parent could still love their child, despite subjecting them to misery. The alcoholic can love their spouse even if they hit them when drunk. And that isn't excusing that, that doesn't mean that child and spouse should endure that, but it is a very overly simplistic view of the world to say that because someone does something bad or misguided that they are incapable of caring. People are complex.

To Cameron and Daphne, public appearances are what matter most to their happiness. Daphne is happy if her public reputation as a wealthy wife and good mom are left intact. Cameron does, in fact, care about her happiness because he is deeply protective of her public persona and reputation. And that’s what makes her happy. She can compartmentalize the negative elements of being married to Cameron so long as they don’t disrupt her public reputation and appearances.

Cameron has sex with a prostitute in front of another man who knows Daphne. How does that protect the public appearance Daphne would like to project?

Daphne tells Harper that she has few female friends because they gossip about her, or taking things they want from her and then gossip about her. Odds are good she is talking about gossip about Cameron's extra-curriculars, or may be referencing former friends who had sex with Cameron as well. How does cheating in a way that spurs gossip among Daphne's peer group, or may even involve members of Daphne's friend group, protect the public appearance Daphne would like to project?

Cameron visibly feels up Harper's legs under the table while in a busy restaurant. Now, maybe there is no one in that restaurant that Daphne would care about knowing that her husband does this kind of thing. On the other hand, they are at the equivalent of a Four Seasons in a popular vacation destination during high season -- maybe there is someone from their "set" in that room who might notice and talk.

I really don't think Cameron does much of anything to fulfill Daphne's needs other than make the money (and there are some alarming indications that maybe the money is not there anymore either, given that he's weirdly short on cash and hitting Ethan up for money). He cheats on her, doesn't even make much effort to hide it. He's not around for the kids (she talks about him working long hours). He does not protect her social status or image.

If Daphne is happy in this marriage, and she may well be, it is not because Cameron makes her happy. It's because she's found things for herself to make herself independently happy -- her kids, shopping, her own sexual dalliances, etc.

Cameron brings very little to the table here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Surprised so many people are missing or can't see the synchronous duality between Ethan and Albie. One is a son on a trip. The other is taking a trip around the son. In addition to never being in the same place at the same time (duh!), despite being co-located, the creators seem to want us both to see, but not understand, the two (one) characters’ (character’s) symbiosis. But there are playful hints, the hair, a shared piece of wardrobe, the winking fresco with two (one) head, but it’s generally kept in the background. It’s going to be really interesting how they choose to reveal this twist. And quite a twist it will be.

What does this even mean?!

[Anonymous]

It’s means troll

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not sure why my post didn’t work but was saying Cam comes onto Daphne and she’s delighted, and they’ve got the dream dynamic but they really really don’t. So then what is really the dream dynamic and is it even possible?

There is no dream dynamic. Other people suck. The show seem to be saying that you can compartmentalize/ignore the things that are negative about your spouse and continue to live a happy life.

My favorite scene from the last episode was when both couples were on the beach. Ethan was stewing and just glaring at Cameron & Daphne, who were acting like lovey teenagers and joking around. You could see the wheels turning in his head - “Why am I in trouble with my wife when I did nothing wrong, while this prick who banged a prostitute gets lavished with romantic attention from his wife? IT’S NOT FAIR.”

I hate how everyone is maintaining lies / unspoken truths on behalf of Cameron. No one seems to want to disrupt his Apple cart and clear the air. Instead, everyone tiptoes around the truth of Cameron’s shitty behavior. Maybe that’s real power.

I don't think the show insinuated that anyone leads a happy life.

[Anonymous]

I don’t know how many of you are missing the obvious parody of that Ethan/Albie takedown lmao

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not sure why my post didn’t work but was saying Cam comes onto Daphne and she’s delighted, and they’ve got the dream dynamic but they really really don’t. So then what is really the dream dynamic and is it even possible?

There is no dream dynamic. Other people suck. The show seem to be saying that you can compartmentalize/ignore the things that are negative about your spouse and continue to live a happy life.

My favorite scene from the last episode was when both couples were on the beach. Ethan was stewing and just glaring at Cameron & Daphne, who were acting like lovey teenagers and joking around. You could see the wheels turning in his head - “Why am I in trouble with my wife when I did nothing wrong, while this prick who banged a prostitute gets lavished with romantic attention from his wife? IT’S NOT FAIR.”

I hate how everyone is maintaining lies / unspoken truths on behalf of Cameron. No one seems to want to disrupt his Apple cart and clear the air. Instead, everyone tiptoes around the truth of Cameron’s shitty behavior. Maybe that’s real power.

Harper and Ethan are both angry and miserable. Cam and Daphne have a great love between them even though he’s flawed. They enjoy life.

Wow, I don't see it this way at all (DP, btw).

My feeling is that this is a snapshot in time of these two couples, and Ethan and Harper are in a period of turmoil and upheaval. It's clear they've been recently disconnected, that they (or for sure at least Harper) are struggling a bit to come to terms with their new wealth, and that they haven't been communicating well. There's also clearly a looming issue regarding kids that is linked to their lack of sex -- either they are not in agreement about wanting kids or there is something else going on because they aren't on the same page.But I wouldn't describe either of them as angry and miserable people generally, or even in their marriage. You see glimpses of a functional, positive relationship there. It may not look as sexy to others, but I relate more to the way Ethan and Harper will quickly kiss goodbye before parting than the way Cam and Daphne are all over each other. I relate to the side-by-side reading/working in bed coupled with some gossip and discussion. I sense that they have pretty similar politics and world outlooks, and that they like and respect each other. The attraction is an issue, especially Ethan toward Harper, but I anticipate it's not that he's unattracted -- there is something else going on.

Cameron and Daphne are different. There's obviously real affection but there's also a lot of artifice, I think. Especially on Daphne's side. She's a real cipher and you can tell in how different she is when she's alone with Harper (much lower energy, moodier, some anger in there too) that the hot, sexy, love bunny things she does with Cameron is not just who she is -- it's a version, but it's not the whole story. And meanwhile, watch the energy Cameron has with Daphne versus with Harper or with Lucia and Mia. It's the same energy. He's just a horny dude. He's more familiar with Daphne but the energy is the same -- I want you. The only time this shifted was when they talked about Daphne's emergency c-section. But even that was centered around Cameron's needs -- I want you, I can't lose you. I don't get that sense of mutual respect. Cameron is the center of their marriage. His needs. Daphne finds ways to meet her needs on the margins, but importantly, her needs are not met in or by the marriage, except insofar as it has facilitated motherhood.

I don't think either marriage is ideal, at all. But if I absolutely had to choose, I'd choose Ethan/Harper because I think with a basis of shared goals and mutual respect, you can work through a lot of stuff. I know I have in my marriage. What Daphne and Cameron has looks desirable in the moment -- all the lovey touching and compliments. But I think longterm I would not want to be in Daphne's position. It would eat me up. Sure, my husband desires me. But he desires everything. I don't find that dynamic remotely appealing.

I think this is kind of an oversimplification of the point. I'm not sure it is artifice between Daphne and Cam. I think with Daphne her eyes are open and you are right she is a cypher and is different when she's on her own and you can see there is more going on there then she lets on. But I do feel like she loves him and has simply organized her life so she has all her needs met. I do think that's accurate that Cam is all about himself, but I do think he cares about her feelings, when Daphne is upset with him he feels compelled to take action to address it (the wine tasting), when she's acting suspicious he goes out of his way to provide her assurances, when Lucia approaches him his anger is about how this will effect his wife. I think some of this is self preservation but I do think Daphne's happiness is important to him and that he does demonstrate that. I do not think he is the center of the marriage and that she is on the margins, but I do think that Daphne evens the scales when she sees that something has created an imbalance (ie, I will not be the cheated upon wife, but I will be the woman in a couple where both parties cheat). She actually I think to the contrary strives to ensure there is equity, even if Cameron isn't entirely aware of it. Which is why I think this might end with HER trying to seduce Ethan.

Harper and Ethan I think you are giving a very rosy impression to. Ethan does not communicate an he is carrying around a lot of dark anger. And he is taking it out on Harper by criticizing her and withholding emotional intimacy. They are better PEOPLE (connected to the world, care about other people, intellectually engaged) but I am not convinced Ethan is any better of a partner than Cameron. He gets to say that because he didn't cheat he did nothing wrong, when in fact he lied to her, he did get kissed, he took a bunch of drugs with h**kers, he became a gregarious engaged person, something Harper wants desperately from him, with these other people. And then again, lied to her. He decides she cheated on him with someone she clearly loathes and is just riding her about this and accusing her of hooking up with Cameron. Notably, she never actually accuses him of anything, just asks questions after finding the wrapper, even after seeing him talking to Lucia and Mia she just asks him not to gaslight her. He immediately asks her if she hooked up with Cameron though.

Longterm I would not want to be in either of these positions, but I'm actually not sure I would choose a ticking time bomb like Ethan who reads but treats me like crap over an out-in-the-open rogue who might cheat on me but actually loves me like Cameron. Not really any good choices there though.

You can call this a snapshot in time, but the lack of trust is more than a snapshot. That's a personality flaw.

I disagree generally with your read but am honestly disturbed by your characterization in the bolded. That is an extremely messed up dynamic to me, where Cameron trying to keep his cheating (with a paid escort) a secret is viewed as "caring about his wife's feelings." Or bribing/distracting her with a fun outing is viewed the same way. As a person in a marriage, I could never view that behavior so generously. I don't consider this situation to be emotional abuse, but the way you are describing it is line with how abusers justify their behavior to their victims -- I lied to protect you, look at all I do for you to make up for it, I know I'm flawed but see the good in me too, baby. Like just reading that made me actually more horrified by Daphne and Cameron's marriage. Yuck yuck yuck, no way. Call me old fashioned if you want, but I don't think here is anything Daphne can do to get her own needs met that would make up for that dynamic.

I don't know where I said that their dynamic was not messed up or that it is something I personally would aspire to. They are living a life dramatically different than you or I could likely ever have or would ever accept. We're not talking about what we personally would accept here. But last season featured two marriages where people were deeply unhappy and made deep concessions to keep the wealth and lifestyle they were accustomed to so I'm not sure why it would shock you to see this again here.

People are not all the same, just because I cannot imagine myself being happy or accepting of a certain marital arrangement doesn't mean I can't fathom that a different person could find a way to make peace with it. I simply thing that Cameron and Daphne are equally flawed but that these flaws present differently. A lid for every pot so to speak. In my opinion the only person in the foursome who has behaved like an ethical and emotionally mature adult is Harper.

Agree on Harper being the only grownup.

I just think the description of Daphne and Cameron's marriage as "working" for Daphne is weird when juxtaposed with descriptions of Cameron's behavior as him caring for her feelings. I just can't wrap my head around the idea that a guy getting mad at the prostitute whose bill he hasn't paid, because she has confronted him in the near vicinity of his wife and might expose him, is an example of him caring about his wife's feelings. That's insane to me. It's not about whether some people make compromises in their marriage (obviously, everyone does). It's that I cannot characterize that behavior by Cameron as an act of caring for his wife.

It's similar to Bert trying to tell Dom that when Bert cheated exentsively on Dom's mom, it was okay and not hurtful because he didn't technically get caught. Like by not making it too obvious, he'd done something kind for Dom's mom. And Dom's response was that regardless of whether or not Bert ever technically got caught, his mom obviously knew and was miserable for decades.

There are a lot of things on this show where there are shades of gray and different ways of looking at it, but I don't think this is one of them. A person who is cheating and covering it up might tell themselves they are doing it to protect their spouse, but we all know that's BS.

I think there are a lot of kinds of relationships out there in the world and people choose to accept different things because of the totality of the circumstances in their life. Daphne has chosen to not be like Dom's mother by choosing to even the playing field. I think you are confusing my description as this being something that Daphne could find peace with as my saying that what Cameron or what she is doing is 'good'.

Cameron cares about her happiness. Not in a way that would be fulfilling to you, and not in a way that would be fulfilling to me, to be clear, but there are many places where people make misguided decisions because they are flawed. A hoarding parent could still love their child, despite subjecting them to misery. The alcoholic can love their spouse even if they hit them when drunk. And that isn't excusing that, that doesn't mean that child and spouse should endure that, but it is a very overly simplistic view of the world to say that because someone does something bad or misguided that they are incapable of caring. People are complex.

To Cameron and Daphne, public appearances are what matter most to their happiness. Daphne is happy if her public reputation as a wealthy wife and good mom are left intact. Cameron does, in fact, care about her happiness because he is deeply protective of her public persona and reputation. And that’s what makes her happy. She can compartmentalize the negative elements of being married to Cameron so long as they don’t disrupt her public reputation and appearances.

Cameron has sex with a prostitute in front of another man who knows Daphne. How does that protect the public appearance Daphne would like to project?

Daphne tells Harper that she has few female friends because they gossip about her, or taking things they want from her and then gossip about her. Odds are good she is talking about gossip about Cameron's extra-curriculars, or may be referencing former friends who had sex with Cameron as well. How does cheating in a way that spurs gossip among Daphne's peer group, or may even involve members of Daphne's friend group, protect the public appearance Daphne would like to project?

Cameron visibly feels up Harper's legs under the table while in a busy restaurant. Now, maybe there is no one in that restaurant that Daphne would care about knowing that her husband does this kind of thing. On the other hand, they are at the equivalent of a Four Seasons in a popular vacation destination during high season -- maybe there is someone from their "set" in that room who might notice and talk.

I really don't think Cameron does much of anything to fulfill Daphne's needs other than make the money (and there are some alarming indications that maybe the money is not there anymore either, given that he's weirdly short on cash and hitting Ethan up for money). He cheats on her, doesn't even make much effort to hide it. He's not around for the kids (she talks about him working long hours). He does not protect her social status or image.

If Daphne is happy in this marriage, and she may well be, it is not because Cameron makes her happy. It's because she's found things for herself to make herself independently happy -- her kids, shopping, her own sexual dalliances, etc.

Cameron brings very little to the table here.

+1 Why does she put up with it? I'd love a comparison to her life and that of Nonno's wife's life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think Ethan is actually gay and has feelings for Cameron, but he loves Harper although he’s not physically attracted to her.

I agree and said as much 30 or so pages back.

I just started watching the series and reading this thread. In the early episodes I felt that Ethan was irritated about Cameron’s flirting because he was jealous. He was uncomfortable with Cameron’s partying with hookers because he’s actually attracted to him. I think it will be revealed that Ethan and Cameron once had a fling back when they were college buddies. There was a “being inside you”
comment that Cam jokingly made to Ethan but maybe it wasn’t a joke.

Ethan tried to date girls but Cam stole all of them. Cam calls Ethan the original incel. I think Ethan had a lot of rage around women and sex. He probably married Harper because it put little pressure on him to be affectionate, since she’s so stiff. He literally runs away to avoid intimacy. I think it comes crashing to a head when he’s confronted with these issues directly.

He could be aspergers.

They had that teen aspie character last season. Perhaps now they have an adult nerd version who masks better and isn’t playing video games most of the day.

Don't use that phrase. No one "is aspergers". You are assuming he is on spectrum when there is no evidence.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not sure why my post didn’t work but was saying Cam comes onto Daphne and she’s delighted, and they’ve got the dream dynamic but they really really don’t. So then what is really the dream dynamic and is it even possible?

There is no dream dynamic. Other people suck. The show seem to be saying that you can compartmentalize/ignore the things that are negative about your spouse and continue to live a happy life.

My favorite scene from the last episode was when both couples were on the beach. Ethan was stewing and just glaring at Cameron & Daphne, who were acting like lovey teenagers and joking around. You could see the wheels turning in his head - “Why am I in trouble with my wife when I did nothing wrong, while this prick who banged a prostitute gets lavished with romantic attention from his wife? IT’S NOT FAIR.”

I hate how everyone is maintaining lies / unspoken truths on behalf of Cameron. No one seems to want to disrupt his Apple cart and clear the air. Instead, everyone tiptoes around the truth of Cameron’s shitty behavior. Maybe that’s real power.

I don't think the show insinuated that anyone leads a happy life.

+1

I can't remember where (maybe that Fresh Air interview with Mike White) but I heard/read someone describe this show as being about people are mostly old enough and self-aware to know what their problem is, but also limited enough to feel that whatever it is about them that is getting in the way of their happiness is not quite fixable. So the show is kind of about the triage people do in that situation. Like Dom knows he's a cheat, he understands that the behavior was learned from his dad and worries that it will be passed onto his son, but he's also just kind of flailing a bit trying to figure out what to do about it. Bargaining, secrecy, lectures. He knows just "not wanting to cheat" is not really an option. It's hard. I think Dom sucks but I do understand the difficulty of that situation. What do you do when you realize you are weak and broken, even understand why, but there's not really a blueprint for fixing it?

Tanya is another good example. That speech she gives Portia in the last episode showed a ton of self-awareness. And we've seen glimpses of that before. She knows that she's messed up and she sounds like she's spent years in therapy figuring out how her weird childhood caused it. But she's also just kind of like "well this is what it is." It's what makes her infuriating but also what makes her charming at times. She's not really trying to fix herself, just make herself as reasonably happy as she can given the situation.

Which brings us to Daphne, and that's exactly what Daphne is doing. All these rich people who mostly rely on their wealth and privilege to make themselves more comfortable, even if they've given up on really making things "correct." It's an option! It's what a lot of people do.

But then there are people on the show who are more "awake" if you will. Like Lucia and Mia, like Harper, like Albie and Portia to some degree. They are younger and/or more naive. They don't understand their own problems as well as some of these other people. But they also still have a belief in their capacity to change, to some degree. Lucia and Mia really believe that if they can just get enough cash on hand, they can achieve their dreams. Harper, in her own words: "I'm too young to be this old." Portia and Albie are way less proactive, both basically looking for a romantic partner who will validate them and solve them. But that's so common for people their age. Portia is getting an education in the problems with that approach that will hopefully wake her up (or get her killed). Albie... we'll see how this ends and what, if anything, he learns from it.

Albie and Portia might just be future Dom and Tanya. Mia and Lucia might be dead, or simply stay smalltime scammers and prostitutes. Harper might ultimately make a different version of the same bargain Daphne has made. Is it about finding happiness? Not exactly. It's more about making do. I think that's what makes the show so watchable. Most of us are just making do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think Ethan is actually gay and has feelings for Cameron, but he loves Harper although he’s not physically attracted to her.

I agree and said as much 30 or so pages back.

I just started watching the series and reading this thread. In the early episodes I felt that Ethan was irritated about Cameron’s flirting because he was jealous. He was uncomfortable with Cameron’s partying with hookers because he’s actually attracted to him. I think it will be revealed that Ethan and Cameron once had a fling back when they were college buddies. There was a “being inside you”
comment that Cam jokingly made to Ethan but maybe it wasn’t a joke.

Ethan tried to date girls but Cam stole all of them. Cam calls Ethan the original incel. I think Ethan had a lot of rage around women and sex. He probably married Harper because it put little pressure on him to be affectionate, since she’s so stiff. He literally runs away to avoid intimacy. I think it comes crashing to a head when he’s confronted with these issues directly.

He could be aspergers.

They had that teen aspie character last season. Perhaps now they have an adult nerd version who masks better and isn’t playing video games most of the day.

Don't use that phrase. No one "is aspergers". You are assuming he is on spectrum when there is no evidence.

Ok great he’s ASD Level I on the American DSM.
Can’t read cues, cannot verbally communication, has no emotions, lashes out when questioned, all book smart no street smarts, can’t take care of people, rigid and fixated on his routine (books, running, porn), etc.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don’t know how many of you are missing the obvious parody of that Ethan/Albie takedown lmao

Oh I get it. That person thinks we're silly for thinking about this show and speculating on what might happen or picking apart themes. I get it.

I just don't care. I think it's interesting to do this with a show that has some layers and interesting, relatable characters, and something to say about relationships, or class, or the human condition. That's why I'm here.

That person is making the same joke over and over and over again, but thinks they are more interesting and clever than the rest of us. Ok.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think Ethan is actually gay and has feelings for Cameron, but he loves Harper although he’s not physically attracted to her.

I agree and said as much 30 or so pages back.

I just started watching the series and reading this thread. In the early episodes I felt that Ethan was irritated about Cameron’s flirting because he was jealous. He was uncomfortable with Cameron’s partying with hookers because he’s actually attracted to him. I think it will be revealed that Ethan and Cameron once had a fling back when they were college buddies. There was a “being inside you”
comment that Cam jokingly made to Ethan but maybe it wasn’t a joke.

Ethan tried to date girls but Cam stole all of them. Cam calls Ethan the original incel. I think Ethan had a lot of rage around women and sex. He probably married Harper because it put little pressure on him to be affectionate, since she’s so stiff. He literally runs away to avoid intimacy. I think it comes crashing to a head when he’s confronted with these issues directly.

He could be aspergers.

They had that teen aspie character last season. Perhaps now they have an adult nerd version who masks better and isn’t playing video games most of the day.

Don't use that phrase. No one "is aspergers". You are assuming he is on spectrum when there is no evidence.

Hence the “could be.” High functioning autistic.

[Anonymous]

I can't imagine wanting to have sex with Cameron if I was Daphne. I'd be so pissed off at him and thinking about whatever gross diseases he might have and how he takes me for granted. And yet she always seems into it.

Is she just putting on a front bc she wants to be the perfect wife/mom/hottie? Or she and I are just very different people haha.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I can't imagine wanting to have sex with Cameron if I was Daphne. I'd be so pissed off at him and thinking about whatever gross diseases he might have and how he takes me for granted. And yet she always seems into it.

Is she just putting on a front bc she wants to be the perfect wife/mom/hottie? Or she and I are just very different people haha.

Same. It's weird to me that this isn't the first thing most people think of. The idea of being married to a man who thinks nothing of hiring prostitutes just because is insane to me. And not that it would make it better in my mind, but it's not even like he vetted this women in any way. He spotted them at the bar, found out they were available for purchase and had drugs, and was ready to go. That is completely alarming behavior way beyond just the cheating aspect (which is also awful).

Cameron is G.R.O.S.S.

Which is actually why I don't think anything happened between him and Harper, because I think Harper feels this immediately and it's only confirmed the more she gets to know him -- she might be mad at Ethan and maybe even messing with him a bit, but she's not going to do anything with Cameron, a man she know just had sex with not one but two hookers, while on vacation WITH his wife, ugh.

I think many viewers are blinded by Theo James' sheer hotness and are missing that Cameron is revolting.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can't imagine wanting to have sex with Cameron if I was Daphne. I'd be so pissed off at him and thinking about whatever gross diseases he might have and how he takes me for granted. And yet she always seems into it.

Is she just putting on a front bc she wants to be the perfect wife/mom/hottie? Or she and I are just very different people haha.

Same. It's weird to me that this isn't the first thing most people think of. The idea of being married to a man who thinks nothing of hiring prostitutes just because is insane to me. And not that it would make it better in my mind, but it's not even like he vetted this women in any way. He spotted them at the bar, found out they were available for purchase and had drugs, and was ready to go. That is completely alarming behavior way beyond just the cheating aspect (which is also awful).

Cameron is G.R.O.S.S.

Which is actually why I don't think anything happened between him and Harper, because I think Harper feels this immediately and it's only confirmed the more she gets to know him -- she might be mad at Ethan and maybe even messing with him a bit, but she's not going to do anything with Cameron, a man she know just had sex with not one but two hookers, while on vacation WITH his wife, ugh.

I think many viewers are blinded by Theo James' sheer hotness and are missing that Cameron is revolting.

I think some of you are just so blinded by your own beliefs about what happiness and love and marriage and acceptable behavior are that you're incapable of imagining people living a different life.

I think Cameron is revolting and I think Theo James is very hot and I think they intentionally chose someone blindingly attractive to play this role to make you question the fact that despite him being incredibly revolting, he's just so handsome that its almost hard to focus on it. That is a choice to make the audience question their own reactions.

He is revolting, he is hot, he is extremely affectionate and caring towards his wife in the minute to minute. He's basically never mad at her, he never gets frustrated with her, he doesn't really criticize her. He showers her with affection, he shows her verbally and physically that he is attracted to her nonstop. And he provides her a great lifestyle with his money. While I do not think i could be happy in this situation, I actually DO think I could be happier as Daphne than as Harper. It would be easier for me to compartmentalize affairs that didn't matter than it would be to compartmentalize getting almost no affection at all from my husband (and to be clear neither of these relationships would be acceptable to me, this is a 'have to choose' hypothetical).

Different people react to cheating differently, some people stay together, some have don't ask don't tell, some divorce, some stay together but get more and more bitter. People are different.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I can't imagine wanting to have sex with Cameron if I was Daphne. I'd be so pissed off at him and thinking about whatever gross diseases he might have and how he takes me for granted. And yet she always seems into it.

Is she just putting on a front bc she wants to be the perfect wife/mom/hottie? Or she and I are just very different people haha.

Same. It's weird to me that this isn't the first thing most people think of. The idea of being married to a man who thinks nothing of hiring prostitutes just because is insane to me. And not that it would make it better in my mind, but it's not even like he vetted this women in any way. He spotted them at the bar, found out they were available for purchase and had drugs, and was ready to go. That is completely alarming behavior way beyond just the cheating aspect (which is also awful).

Cameron is G.R.O.S.S.

Which is actually why I don't think anything happened between him and Harper, because I think Harper feels this immediately and it's only confirmed the more she gets to know him -- she might be mad at Ethan and maybe even messing with him a bit, but she's not going to do anything with Cameron, a man she know just had sex with not one but two hookers, while on vacation WITH his wife, ugh.

I think many viewers are blinded by Theo James' sheer hotness and are missing that Cameron is revolting.

I think some of you are just so blinded by your own beliefs about what happiness and love and marriage and acceptable behavior are that you're incapable of imagining people living a different life.

I think Cameron is revolting and I think Theo James is very hot and I think they intentionally chose someone blindingly attractive to play this role to make you question the fact that despite him being incredibly revolting, he's just so handsome that its almost hard to focus on it. That is a choice to make the audience question their own reactions.

He is revolting, he is hot, he is extremely affectionate and caring towards his wife in the minute to minute. He's basically never mad at her, he never gets frustrated with her, he doesn't really criticize her. He showers her with affection, he shows her verbally and physically that he is attracted to her nonstop. And he provides her a great lifestyle with his money. While I do not think i could be happy in this situation, I actually DO think I could be happier as Daphne than as Harper. It would be easier for me to compartmentalize affairs that didn't matter than it would be to compartmentalize getting almost no affection at all from my husband (and to be clear neither of these relationships would be acceptable to me, this is a 'have to choose' hypothetical).

Different people react to cheating differently, some people stay together, some have don't ask don't tell, some divorce, some stay together but get more and more bitter. People are different.

Uh, no, I'm not "blinded by [my] own beliefs about what happiness and love and marriage and acceptable behavior" are. I know people can be happy all kinds of ways.

Being married to a man who regularly sleeps with prostitutes, takes drugs he bought off said prostitutes, refuses to pay said prostitutes despite promising to? Nope, not one of the ways to be happy. Sorry.

I can imagine people being happy in a marriage with infidelity, with an unspoken don't-ask-don't-tell policy. I get it. Life is long and marriage can be long and I think there is room for all kinds of different arrangements. But we're not talking about an arrangement. We're talking about someone who regularly takes risks with their sexual health (and takes them on your behalf too), lies about it, does drugs with strangers, hits on his friend's wife... thinking Cameron is grotesque and that there is no way a woman could actually be happily married to him is not something that only a closed minded prude would think. It's the natural reaction of someone with a sense of self worth. I do not care how hot he is or how many times he tells me I'm pretty, this would work for like a month and then I wouldn't even be able to look on those things favorably because I'd view his hotness as a liability and his compliments as the efforts to cover his tracks that they definitely are.

This show has a lot of nuance but there's no nuance here. Cameron is absolute $hit.