What happened to this California family?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As always, Websleuths does a good job on real-life mysteries. Here's the thread: https://www.websleuths.com/forums/threads/ca-jonathan-gerrish-ellen-chung-daughter-1-dog-suspicious-death-remote-hiking-area-aug-2021.582843/page-43 I find this poster's theory (starting with the dog swimming in toxic water) plausible:

I can imagine a scenario where the dog was off leash, scouting ahead of the family, reached the water, and took a drink and perhaps a swim. The family arrives and is immediately concerned, and the dog begins to show poisoning symptoms. The adults now have to carry an ailing dog, infant, water, and any other gear they may have back up the switchbacks. They are distressed and rushing while bearing additional weight and heat. One or both of the adults could even have suffered a minor injury like a sprained ankle. The father begins to show signs of heat distress. The dad sits down on the trail in the midst of heat stroke. The mom, familiar with the symptoms, goes to him, puts down her dog, and removes the child carrier. She tries to cool him down with some of the remaining water. Knowing she is just a mile and a half from the car, she leaves her family in the middle of the trail in the event other hikers may pass and begins to sprint to the car carrying only her keys and phone. But her distress, exhaustion, and possible injury (exposure to toxins from carrying the dog? sprain?) etc. catch up with her. She is unable to continue.

I have a hard time seeing mom leaving baby with very ill dad.

This is why the theory is off. NO way would any mother, especially an experienced hiker, would leave a baby with the ailing person. She would have dropped everything, grabbed only the baby and phone and gone for help.

Agree. That would never happen.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't know how anyone isn't thinking the CO/CO2 explanation isn't the clear one. I get that it is rare and bizarre but nothing else makes sense.

There is no poison that works that quickly and doesn't make people start vomiting etc. The Australian couple for example vomited/pooped everywhere.

There is also no evidence that he mom was fleeing, all it says is that she was 'up the hill'. I think dad sitting down with the baby to take a break and mom going to look at something for a sec and then hit with a cloud of whatever it was makes the most sense.

And the reason I am most convinced about this is the dog. If the dog was leashed and the guy died, it would have pulled or tried to free itself, it would have been clearly injured. And disturbingly probably eventually would have tried to eat the guy. Or at minimum there would be evidence of chewing through the leash. Dogs do not just lay down and die peacefully unless they are very old and sick and known to be dying. And a mom with a one month old would not have left the baby behind. Especially if she had any inclination there was something happening. I just do not see a scenario where she goes without the baby.

Whatever it was was sudden and almost instantaneous. It is just the only explanation that makes sense with the dog.

I think it is heat stroke. Why doesn't that make sense? It was very hot. It can happen even with water available, it can come on slowly or quickly, and the dog and baby are also susceptible to it. Especially the baby.

But yeah, CO/CO2 is my second bet.

But these will have been found in the autopsy, they wouldn’t have to wait for the toxicology report.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't know how anyone isn't thinking the CO/CO2 explanation isn't the clear one. I get that it is rare and bizarre but nothing else makes sense.

There is no poison that works that quickly and doesn't make people start vomiting etc. The Australian couple for example vomited/pooped everywhere.

There is also no evidence that he mom was fleeing, all it says is that she was 'up the hill'. I think dad sitting down with the baby to take a break and mom going to look at something for a sec and then hit with a cloud of whatever it was makes the most sense.

And the reason I am most convinced about this is the dog. If the dog was leashed and the guy died, it would have pulled or tried to free itself, it would have been clearly injured. And disturbingly probably eventually would have tried to eat the guy. Or at minimum there would be evidence of chewing through the leash. Dogs do not just lay down and die peacefully unless they are very old and sick and known to be dying. And a mom with a one month old would not have left the baby behind. Especially if she had any inclination there was something happening. I just do not see a scenario where she goes without the baby.

Whatever it was was sudden and almost instantaneous. It is just the only explanation that makes sense with the dog.

I think it is heat stroke. Why doesn't that make sense? It was very hot. It can happen even with water available, it can come on slowly or quickly, and the dog and baby are also susceptible to it. Especially the baby.

But yeah, CO/CO2 is my second bet.

But these will have been found in the autopsy, they wouldn’t have to wait for the toxicology report.

What specifically would be found? I thought that someone previously said that CO would just show up as asphyxiation. Not sure how heat stroke presents.

[Anonymous]

^^remember that under the heatstroke theory, people are delirious in the late stages. The mom could have thought the car was right around the corner, not 1.5 miles away still, and she could have been running to try to move it closer to where the rest were sitting. You wouldn’t want to run with the baby, as that’s dangerous for their brains. There are other reports that both parents had their phones with them, but there was apparently no cell reception in the area where they were found.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't know how anyone isn't thinking the CO/CO2 explanation isn't the clear one. I get that it is rare and bizarre but nothing else makes sense.

There is no poison that works that quickly and doesn't make people start vomiting etc. The Australian couple for example vomited/pooped everywhere.

There is also no evidence that he mom was fleeing, all it says is that she was 'up the hill'. I think dad sitting down with the baby to take a break and mom going to look at something for a sec and then hit with a cloud of whatever it was makes the most sense.

And the reason I am most convinced about this is the dog. If the dog was leashed and the guy died, it would have pulled or tried to free itself, it would have been clearly injured. And disturbingly probably eventually would have tried to eat the guy. Or at minimum there would be evidence of chewing through the leash. Dogs do not just lay down and die peacefully unless they are very old and sick and known to be dying. And a mom with a one month old would not have left the baby behind. Especially if she had any inclination there was something happening. I just do not see a scenario where she goes without the baby.

Whatever it was was sudden and almost instantaneous. It is just the only explanation that makes sense with the dog.

I think it is heat stroke. Why doesn't that make sense? It was very hot. It can happen even with water available, it can come on slowly or quickly, and the dog and baby are also susceptible to it. Especially the baby.

But yeah, CO/CO2 is my second bet.

Healthy dogs do not just die of heat stroke sitting there. They will find shade, water etc.

[Anonymous]

Forensic medical examiner Dr. Google says "The autopsy findings of heat stroke may be minimal and are non-specific, particularly if the survival interval is short. "

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't know how anyone isn't thinking the CO/CO2 explanation isn't the clear one. I get that it is rare and bizarre but nothing else makes sense.

There is no poison that works that quickly and doesn't make people start vomiting etc. The Australian couple for example vomited/pooped everywhere.

There is also no evidence that he mom was fleeing, all it says is that she was 'up the hill'. I think dad sitting down with the baby to take a break and mom going to look at something for a sec and then hit with a cloud of whatever it was makes the most sense.

And the reason I am most convinced about this is the dog. If the dog was leashed and the guy died, it would have pulled or tried to free itself, it would have been clearly injured. And disturbingly probably eventually would have tried to eat the guy. Or at minimum there would be evidence of chewing through the leash. Dogs do not just lay down and die peacefully unless they are very old and sick and known to be dying. And a mom with a one month old would not have left the baby behind. Especially if she had any inclination there was something happening. I just do not see a scenario where she goes without the baby.

Whatever it was was sudden and almost instantaneous. It is just the only explanation that makes sense with the dog.

I think it is heat stroke. Why doesn't that make sense? It was very hot. It can happen even with water available, it can come on slowly or quickly, and the dog and baby are also susceptible to it. Especially the baby.

But yeah, CO/CO2 is my second bet.

DP. I’d add that it may be harder to differentiate between heat stroke, poison gas, or poison water right away given that they may have died a couple days before they were found (left sometime on Sunday, weren’t home when nanny came Monday morning, located Tuesday).

But these will have been found in the autopsy, they wouldn’t have to wait for the toxicology report.

What specifically would be found? I thought that someone previously said that CO would just show up as asphyxiation. Not sure how heat stroke presents.

[Anonymous]

Heat stroke is not really uncommon (as a cause of death in an area like this) and i believe it would be easy to spot/identify in an autopsy if not on the ground by the police/rescuers themselves. Seems very unlikely that heatstroke would be difficult to diagnose/ID as cause of death very quickly.

Also very unlikely if not impossible for something in the water to kill three people and a dog suddenly and what seems to be peacefully (no mess, no sign of struggle).

I'm leaning towards gas or potentially some sort of narcotic that they stumbled across (although not sure why it would no longer be there).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't know how anyone isn't thinking the CO/CO2 explanation isn't the clear one. I get that it is rare and bizarre but nothing else makes sense.

There is no poison that works that quickly and doesn't make people start vomiting etc. The Australian couple for example vomited/pooped everywhere.

There is also no evidence that he mom was fleeing, all it says is that she was 'up the hill'. I think dad sitting down with the baby to take a break and mom going to look at something for a sec and then hit with a cloud of whatever it was makes the most sense.

And the reason I am most convinced about this is the dog. If the dog was leashed and the guy died, it would have pulled or tried to free itself, it would have been clearly injured. And disturbingly probably eventually would have tried to eat the guy. Or at minimum there would be evidence of chewing through the leash. Dogs do not just lay down and die peacefully unless they are very old and sick and known to be dying. And a mom with a one month old would not have left the baby behind. Especially if she had any inclination there was something happening. I just do not see a scenario where she goes without the baby.

Whatever it was was sudden and almost instantaneous. It is just the only explanation that makes sense with the dog.

I think it is heat stroke. Why doesn't that make sense? It was very hot. It can happen even with water available, it can come on slowly or quickly, and the dog and baby are also susceptible to it. Especially the baby.

But yeah, CO/CO2 is my second bet.

Healthy dogs do not just die of heat stroke sitting there. They will find shade, water etc.

Depends on the terrain, if there is no obvious shade/water and they are hiking with family members, they may continue to walk along. You can find numerous articles of dogs dying of heat stroke while hiking in heat.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I don't know how anyone isn't thinking the CO/CO2 explanation isn't the clear one. I get that it is rare and bizarre but nothing else makes sense.

There is no poison that works that quickly and doesn't make people start vomiting etc. The Australian couple for example vomited/pooped everywhere.

There is also no evidence that he mom was fleeing, all it says is that she was 'up the hill'. I think dad sitting down with the baby to take a break and mom going to look at something for a sec and then hit with a cloud of whatever it was makes the most sense.

And the reason I am most convinced about this is the dog. If the dog was leashed and the guy died, it would have pulled or tried to free itself, it would have been clearly injured. And disturbingly probably eventually would have tried to eat the guy. Or at minimum there would be evidence of chewing through the leash. Dogs do not just lay down and die peacefully unless they are very old and sick and known to be dying. And a mom with a one month old would not have left the baby behind. Especially if she had any inclination there was something happening. I just do not see a scenario where she goes without the baby.

Whatever it was was sudden and almost instantaneous. It is just the only explanation that makes sense with the dog.

Agreed. Slight correction, the baby was 1 year old. I am assuming in a backpack on Dad, otherwise baby would have crawled, walked away a bit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't know how anyone isn't thinking the CO/CO2 explanation isn't the clear one. I get that it is rare and bizarre but nothing else makes sense.

There is no poison that works that quickly and doesn't make people start vomiting etc. The Australian couple for example vomited/pooped everywhere.

There is also no evidence that he mom was fleeing, all it says is that she was 'up the hill'. I think dad sitting down with the baby to take a break and mom going to look at something for a sec and then hit with a cloud of whatever it was makes the most sense.

And the reason I am most convinced about this is the dog. If the dog was leashed and the guy died, it would have pulled or tried to free itself, it would have been clearly injured. And disturbingly probably eventually would have tried to eat the guy. Or at minimum there would be evidence of chewing through the leash. Dogs do not just lay down and die peacefully unless they are very old and sick and known to be dying. And a mom with a one month old would not have left the baby behind. Especially if she had any inclination there was something happening. I just do not see a scenario where she goes without the baby.

Whatever it was was sudden and almost instantaneous. It is just the only explanation that makes sense with the dog.

I think it is heat stroke. Why doesn't that make sense? It was very hot. It can happen even with water available, it can come on slowly or quickly, and the dog and baby are also susceptible to it. Especially the baby.

But yeah, CO/CO2 is my second bet.

Healthy dogs do not just die of heat stroke sitting there. They will find shade, water etc.

Depends on the terrain, if there is no obvious shade/water and they are hiking with family members, they may continue to walk along. You can find numerous articles of dogs dying of heat stroke while hiking in heat.

There was water nearby though.

[Anonymous]

Even with heatstroke I don’t see how all the people and the dog died at the same location and time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't know how anyone isn't thinking the CO/CO2 explanation isn't the clear one. I get that it is rare and bizarre but nothing else makes sense.

There is no poison that works that quickly and doesn't make people start vomiting etc. The Australian couple for example vomited/pooped everywhere.

There is also no evidence that he mom was fleeing, all it says is that she was 'up the hill'. I think dad sitting down with the baby to take a break and mom going to look at something for a sec and then hit with a cloud of whatever it was makes the most sense.

And the reason I am most convinced about this is the dog. If the dog was leashed and the guy died, it would have pulled or tried to free itself, it would have been clearly injured. And disturbingly probably eventually would have tried to eat the guy. Or at minimum there would be evidence of chewing through the leash. Dogs do not just lay down and die peacefully unless they are very old and sick and known to be dying. And a mom with a one month old would not have left the baby behind. Especially if she had any inclination there was something happening. I just do not see a scenario where she goes without the baby.

Whatever it was was sudden and almost instantaneous. It is just the only explanation that makes sense with the dog.

I think it is heat stroke. Why doesn't that make sense? It was very hot. It can happen even with water available, it can come on slowly or quickly, and the dog and baby are also susceptible to it. Especially the baby.

But yeah, CO/CO2 is my second bet.

But these will have been found in the autopsy, they wouldn’t have to wait for the toxicology report.

And they would not have all died from heat stroke.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't know how anyone isn't thinking the CO/CO2 explanation isn't the clear one. I get that it is rare and bizarre but nothing else makes sense.

There is no poison that works that quickly and doesn't make people start vomiting etc. The Australian couple for example vomited/pooped everywhere.

There is also no evidence that he mom was fleeing, all it says is that she was 'up the hill'. I think dad sitting down with the baby to take a break and mom going to look at something for a sec and then hit with a cloud of whatever it was makes the most sense.

And the reason I am most convinced about this is the dog. If the dog was leashed and the guy died, it would have pulled or tried to free itself, it would have been clearly injured. And disturbingly probably eventually would have tried to eat the guy. Or at minimum there would be evidence of chewing through the leash. Dogs do not just lay down and die peacefully unless they are very old and sick and known to be dying. And a mom with a one month old would not have left the baby behind. Especially if she had any inclination there was something happening. I just do not see a scenario where she goes without the baby.

Whatever it was was sudden and almost instantaneous. It is just the only explanation that makes sense with the dog.

I think it is heat stroke. Why doesn't that make sense? It was very hot. It can happen even with water available, it can come on slowly or quickly, and the dog and baby are also susceptible to it. Especially the baby.

But yeah, CO/CO2 is my second bet.

Healthy dogs do not just die of heat stroke sitting there. They will find shade, water etc.

Depends on the terrain, if there is no obvious shade/water and they are hiking with family members, they may continue to walk along. You can find numerous articles of dogs dying of heat stroke while hiking in heat.

Before succumbing to heat stroke a dog overheats and tries to cool down by panting so their gums change colors from panting and they vomit amd have diarrhea. There would be dog puke/poop nearby and the dog would show signs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Even with heatstroke I don’t see how all the people and the dog died at the same location and time.

+1. This is why I agree with pp above that thinks CO2 poisoning.