Confused about all the gender bending

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm not even sure if I like any labels. Aren't we are all somewhere on the spectrum? In any case, labels are helpful for some, but they aren't for everyone, and I think we need to be more flexible with them changing. I'm learning so much talking to my son. He came out as bisexual to me, and he doesn't like labels, so I've been having a lot of talks at home lately about it. Being flexible is important all the way around.

No, thanks, we aren’t

No we really are somewhere in the gender spectrum.

You probably aren’t as masculine or feminine as others your same gender are. You have seen, im sure, very manly men and very feminine women. They are on the extremes of the spectrum. Everyone else is between those extremes, and people who are non-binary are somewhere in the middle.

Being a feminine man or a masculine woman doesn’t change the reality that you are, in fact, a man or a woman.

There's a difference between biological sex and gender. Non-binary people are focused mostly on the idea of gender, which is a societal construct that exists on a continuum and arises out of lived reality (Google "constitutive communication"...it's been around for well over two decades since I wrote a doctoral dissertation based on it that long ago and it wasn't new then). Does my kid know that they're a woman biologically? Sure. They just choose not to focus on that because what sex organs they have has nothing to do with the person they are, and they'd prefer that people react to them in a reality based on behavior and personality (which they have control over), not biology (which they don't).

But why does there need to be a label? Most people are either male or female sex, and in terms of gender, who cares? If your kid doesn’t want to be female, what exactly, do they not want to be that they consider female? Seems like they are attaching stereotypes to the gender and rejecting those.

So everybody is non-binary because we all like everything... glad we agree.

[Anonymous]

Are any of the parents concerned with the profound narcissism involved in this process? Encouraging such self-absorption cannot portend good things for adulthood.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just seems like a colossal waste of time and mental energy, apart from kids with actual gender dysphoria.

Also reading this chain made me feel like we are doing girls a disservice but making it seem like being a woman is so terrible and such a burden to carry. FFS.

My child doesn’t think being a woman is terrible, they just don’t identify as one. They don’t want to be a man either.

Despite what this generation thinks, there is not a third option.

Google “spectrum” and get back to me.

Google “reality” and get back to me.

Omg are you kidding me? This from the person who is getting their ideas about reality from what their WASP mom told them in 1960? Hi, guess what, there is a ton of science on this, including research from doctors, psychologists, cultural anthropologists, and more, and the reality is that there are more than just two genders. I guess you can live inside your own world all you want but, yeah, that’s not reality.

Psychologists and “cultural anthropologists” are not scientists, dear. There is zero credible research to support your statements

See there is this thing called the social sciences...

I can’t tell if you’re being sarcastic or not. Please, please tell me you are and that you’re really not as stupid as I fear.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Are any of the parents concerned with the profound narcissism involved in this process? Encouraging such self-absorption cannot portend good things for adulthood.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Are any of the parents concerned with the profound narcissism involved in this process? Encouraging such self-absorption cannot portend good things for adulthood.

I have not experienced this. My child "coming out" got less attention than my cis-gender child winning a soccer tournament.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes i agree that coming out as young teens is ubiquitous now. Our dd identifies stridently as bisexual - and yet the vast majority of her ever changing crushes appear to be boys. Despite being married to a man for many many years, she tells me that i am obviously bi because i prefer shorts/ jeans, don’t wear much makeup and exercise 😂. Okie dokie! Also that Gen Z is the greatest generation of all time because they accept so many different gender identifies. 😂 Gotta love the self confidence but reality checks are in order - who do they think paved the way for all these progressive ideals? Every single generation that came before them.

I tell our dd that we will love her and accept her whatever her sexuality may be -/ but that she still needs to work hard at school and become a responsible independent adult. All these fancy gender labels don’t change the need to work hard and do mundane chores. I also believe that negative stereotypes around feminine women are Misogynistic. We need to respect different forms of womanhood. There is a lot of mixed messaging going on in social media.

i agree with whoever said a lot of this is the way this generation is rebelling/finding themselves. That can be a good thing as long as they stay grounded.

But they are not grounded. They are the most confused generation in history. Exhibit A- the child you described above.

+10000. I can give you Exhibit B-Z as well, to include OP's child.

Minus 10,000

Thanks Captain Obvious but the confusion of exhibit A was implied 😜 - Of course they are confused: They are young teens getting through a Pandemic with way too much screen time. Our job is to provide unconditional love and common sense by keeping things in perspective.

And yes, regarding more recent question about concerns around narcissism - we are concerned about that part of this gender bender phenomenon - i talk about being too self involved often with my kid but in a light hearted way - eg poking fun at the endless selfies. She knows our family values are kindness, service and volunteering.

It was bad enough being a teen when i was young but now the pressures and isolation must be almost unbearable. It is important to listen to our teens, and a privilege for them to share sensitive identity questions with us. I wish i could have talked through confusing parts of growing up with my parents but it was all glossed over back then.

My main goal for my teen is mental health, sense of spiritual and personal connection, self acceptance and keeping academic motivation. I don’t pretend to understand all the new gender categories/ nuances but i let my kid know she is loved as she is. We are church going family usually and we beiieve that God made all of us in her image - especially the weird and broken ones.

[Anonymous]

I really appreciate this discussion, having watched my daughter’s friends evolve through middle school stages of being pan, bi, etc, and now going off to college. I think some have stayed bi or lesbian. Some are shifting pronouns to she/they or other series, or are rejecting the concept of gender entirely.

What happens when they go off to college? I don’t know. I think being open to anyone’s preferences is their default and I love the spirit of that in theory. In day to day reality, it is hard for me to keep track. One person uses different pronouns interchangeably throughout the day. Some boys are dressing up like pinups. I am trying and learning, but it is sometimes hard for me to understand. Sometimes someone says something that I would consider non-controversial but it ends up offending someone and then they gang up and accuse the person of being transphobic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes i agree that coming out as young teens is ubiquitous now. Our dd identifies stridently as bisexual - and yet the vast majority of her ever changing crushes appear to be boys. Despite being married to a man for many many years, she tells me that i am obviously bi because i prefer shorts/ jeans, don’t wear much makeup and exercise 😂. Okie dokie! Also that Gen Z is the greatest generation of all time because they accept so many different gender identifies. 😂 Gotta love the self confidence but reality checks are in order - who do they think paved the way for all these progressive ideals? Every single generation that came before them.

I tell our dd that we will love her and accept her whatever her sexuality may be -/ but that she still needs to work hard at school and become a responsible independent adult. All these fancy gender labels don’t change the need to work hard and do mundane chores. I also believe that negative stereotypes around feminine women are Misogynistic. We need to respect different forms of womanhood. There is a lot of mixed messaging going on in social media.

i agree with whoever said a lot of this is the way this generation is rebelling/finding themselves. That can be a good thing as long as they stay grounded.

But they are not grounded. They are the most confused generation in history. Exhibit A- the child you described above.

+10000. I can give you Exhibit B-Z as well, to include OP's child.

Minus 10,000

Thanks Captain Obvious but the confusion of exhibit A was implied 😜 - Of course they are confused: They are young teens getting through a Pandemic with way too much screen time. Our job is to provide unconditional love and common sense by keeping things in perspective.

And yes, regarding more recent question about concerns around narcissism - we are concerned about that part of this gender bender phenomenon - i talk about being too self involved often with my kid but in a light hearted way - eg poking fun at the endless selfies. She knows our family values are kindness, service and volunteering.

It was bad enough being a teen when i was young but now the pressures and isolation must be almost unbearable. It is important to listen to our teens, and a privilege for them to share sensitive identity questions with us. I wish i could have talked through confusing parts of growing up with my parents but it was all glossed over back then.

My main goal for my teen is mental health, sense of spiritual and personal connection, self acceptance and keeping academic motivation. I don’t pretend to understand all the new gender categories/ nuances but i let my kid know she is loved as she is. We are church going family usually and we beiieve that God made all of us in her image - especially the weird and broken ones.

It’s just that my understanding of unconditional love would be to say, “larla, I love you unconditionally. Which is why I’m not going to pretend this confusion and self absorption is anything but injurious to your mental health (if you’re devoting mental space to your gender, you’re not healthy), self-acceptance (people who obsess over who they are never quite figure it out), personal connection (narcissists connect only with themselves), academic success (wtf? But anyway, that requires a LOT of clear thinking, focus). If you continue down this path, God will still love you, I will still love you, but you will be unhappy.” Because THIS is not bringing ANY of our children happiness or peace.

Sorry but These talking points are not my idea of communicating unconditional love. It sounds judgmental and would probably result in loss of trust and shutting you out (if your kid is like mine).

And How do you know that feeling accepted as bi or Pan or non binary or whatever will not lead to happiness down the road?

I believe that teens who feel connected to their parents are much less likely to engage in risky behaviors that lead to great unhappiness. Also, the pressures of real life (getting into a decent college/ work politics etc) will probably temper much of the way they obsess over gender labels.

You do have a point about the self absorption and selfishness being potentially harmful. We talk about the need to be mindful
Of the needs of others quite regularly.

God help us all to get the balance right and appreciate the precious lives entrusted to us.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes i agree that coming out as young teens is ubiquitous now. Our dd identifies stridently as bisexual - and yet the vast majority of her ever changing crushes appear to be boys. Despite being married to a man for many many years, she tells me that i am obviously bi because i prefer shorts/ jeans, don’t wear much makeup and exercise 😂. Okie dokie! Also that Gen Z is the greatest generation of all time because they accept so many different gender identifies. 😂 Gotta love the self confidence but reality checks are in order - who do they think paved the way for all these progressive ideals? Every single generation that came before them.

I tell our dd that we will love her and accept her whatever her sexuality may be -/ but that she still needs to work hard at school and become a responsible independent adult. All these fancy gender labels don’t change the need to work hard and do mundane chores. I also believe that negative stereotypes around feminine women are Misogynistic. We need to respect different forms of womanhood. There is a lot of mixed messaging going on in social media.

i agree with whoever said a lot of this is the way this generation is rebelling/finding themselves. That can be a good thing as long as they stay grounded.

But they are not grounded. They are the most confused generation in history. Exhibit A- the child you described above.

+10000. I can give you Exhibit B-Z as well, to include OP's child.

Minus 10,000

Thanks Captain Obvious but the confusion of exhibit A was implied 😜 - Of course they are confused: They are young teens getting through a Pandemic with way too much screen time. Our job is to provide unconditional love and common sense by keeping things in perspective.

And yes, regarding more recent question about concerns around narcissism - we are concerned about that part of this gender bender phenomenon - i talk about being too self involved often with my kid but in a light hearted way - eg poking fun at the endless selfies. She knows our family values are kindness, service and volunteering.

It was bad enough being a teen when i was young but now the pressures and isolation must be almost unbearable. It is important to listen to our teens, and a privilege for them to share sensitive identity questions with us. I wish i could have talked through confusing parts of growing up with my parents but it was all glossed over back then.

My main goal for my teen is mental health, sense of spiritual and personal connection, self acceptance and keeping academic motivation. I don’t pretend to understand all the new gender categories/ nuances but i let my kid know she is loved as she is. We are church going family usually and we beiieve that God made all of us in her image - especially the weird and broken ones.

It’s just that my understanding of unconditional love would be to say, “larla, I love you unconditionally. Which is why I’m not going to pretend this confusion and self absorption is anything but injurious to your mental health (if you’re devoting mental space to your gender, you’re not healthy), self-acceptance (people who obsess over who they are never quite figure it out), personal connection (narcissists connect only with themselves), academic success (wtf? But anyway, that requires a LOT of clear thinking, focus). If you continue down this path, God will still love you, I will still love you, but you will be unhappy.” Because THIS is not bringing ANY of our children happiness or peace.

None of that is true gor the teens I know.

One - besides school they have had an inordinate amount of free clean air time ... hiking, bike riding, taking the dog for a walk. No they haven’t been isolated... if you isolated your child during the pandemic you did it wrong.

The teens I know are not confused or self absorbed, the only ones who are would be the few adults and partners that pretend this is a stage, performative or unhealthy.

Cis gender kids spend way more time on being girly or masculine than non-binary kids.

The teens I know are frat kids, connected emotionally to their peers and siblings snd non crazy parents. They are kind to their confused grandparents. They are successful in HS, thriving in college and all around spiritually advanced.

[Anonymous]

Not frat... kind

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Are any of the parents concerned with the profound narcissism involved in this process? Encouraging such self-absorption cannot portend good things for adulthood.

1. This isn’t narcissism. Narcissism has a very specific definition and this isn’t it.

2. It is developmental appropriate for teenagers to go through a period of self-absorption. There are some great prentice books on keeping a balance between letting them go through this phase of self-discovery and keeping them focused enough on what’s going on around them so they can remember they aren’t the center of the world.

3. Saying “okay you’re non-binary, cool!” Isn’t encouraging self-absorption. I’m sure there are weirdo parents who bring up issues of gender and sexuality to their kids and who low-key encourage them to be something different, and that is just wrong. If your kid comes out to you and you just accept them, that’s not really encouraging them to do anything, much less encouraging them to be narcissistic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes i agree that coming out as young teens is ubiquitous now. Our dd identifies stridently as bisexual - and yet the vast majority of her ever changing crushes appear to be boys. Despite being married to a man for many many years, she tells me that i am obviously bi because i prefer shorts/ jeans, don’t wear much makeup and exercise 😂. Okie dokie! Also that Gen Z is the greatest generation of all time because they accept so many different gender identifies. 😂 Gotta love the self confidence but reality checks are in order - who do they think paved the way for all these progressive ideals? Every single generation that came before them.

I tell our dd that we will love her and accept her whatever her sexuality may be -/ but that she still needs to work hard at school and become a responsible independent adult. All these fancy gender labels don’t change the need to work hard and do mundane chores. I also believe that negative stereotypes around feminine women are Misogynistic. We need to respect different forms of womanhood. There is a lot of mixed messaging going on in social media.

i agree with whoever said a lot of this is the way this generation is rebelling/finding themselves. That can be a good thing as long as they stay grounded.

But they are not grounded. They are the most confused generation in history. Exhibit A- the child you described above.

+10000. I can give you Exhibit B-Z as well, to include OP's child.

Minus 10,000

Thanks Captain Obvious but the confusion of exhibit A was implied 😜 - Of course they are confused: They are young teens getting through a Pandemic with way too much screen time. Our job is to provide unconditional love and common sense by keeping things in perspective.

And yes, regarding more recent question about concerns around narcissism - we are concerned about that part of this gender bender phenomenon - i talk about being too self involved often with my kid but in a light hearted way - eg poking fun at the endless selfies. She knows our family values are kindness, service and volunteering.

It was bad enough being a teen when i was young but now the pressures and isolation must be almost unbearable. It is important to listen to our teens, and a privilege for them to share sensitive identity questions with us. I wish i could have talked through confusing parts of growing up with my parents but it was all glossed over back then.

My main goal for my teen is mental health, sense of spiritual and personal connection, self acceptance and keeping academic motivation. I don’t pretend to understand all the new gender categories/ nuances but i let my kid know she is loved as she is. We are church going family usually and we beiieve that God made all of us in her image - especially the weird and broken ones.

It’s just that my understanding of unconditional love would be to say, “larla, I love you unconditionally. Which is why I’m not going to pretend this confusion and self absorption is anything but injurious to your mental health (if you’re devoting mental space to your gender, you’re not healthy), self-acceptance (people who obsess over who they are never quite figure it out), personal connection (narcissists connect only with themselves), academic success (wtf? But anyway, that requires a LOT of clear thinking, focus). If you continue down this path, God will still love you, I will still love you, but you will be unhappy.” Because THIS is not bringing ANY of our children happiness or peace.

Sorry but These talking points are not my idea of communicating unconditional love. It sounds judgmental and would probably result in loss of trust and shutting you out (if your kid is like mine).

And How do you know that feeling accepted as bi or Pan or non binary or whatever will not lead to happiness down the road?

I believe that teens who feel connected to their parents are much less likely to engage in risky behaviors that lead to great unhappiness. Also, the pressures of real life (getting into a decent college/ work politics etc) will probably temper much of the way they obsess over gender labels.

You do have a point about the self absorption and selfishness being potentially harmful. We talk about the need to be mindful
Of the needs of others quite regularly.

God help us all to get the balance right and appreciate the precious lives entrusted to us.

I assume people know this, but this isn’t just a belief. There is tons of evidence that this is the case, for all kids.

For LGBTQ kids, the consequences of non-acceptance or the kind of fake acceptance the PP is talking about are pretty dire. There is a much higher risk of anxiety, depression, poor school performance, STDs, and suicide.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:PP's post is exactly what bothers me about this.

Just because someone isn't SUPER feminine or masculine, doesn't mean they aren't their cis gender. There are many ways to be female (or male).

Exactly!

[Anonymous]

I agree that that the kids I see obsessed with gender presentation (as a parent of young teens and a MS teacher) are the cis white kids, whether het or poorly closeted gay. The openly LGBTQ kids mostly embrace, or at least accept, a vast spectrum of attire and behavior of themselves and others. AA and Latinx kids seem more accepting unless they are from very religious and even then, it’s mainly attire and hair-length. They all seem to use the same slang and have the same pop culture references, which are sometimes gay-influenced.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP's post is exactly what bothers me about this.

Just because someone isn't SUPER feminine or masculine, doesn't mean they aren't their cis gender. There are many ways to be female (or male).

Exactly!

I think you may be suffering from an irony deficiency - did you not see the laughing emoji after the simplistic definition for signs of being bi? Of course that is ridiculous. They are young and trying to figure out who they are. Of course there are many different ways of being masculine or feminine - and how much one conforms to gender stereotypes probably indicates little except for perhaps a limited imagination/ emotional range. Young teens have a good excuse for relying on cliches to inform them about gender roles while “mature” adults not so much.

The big picture issue here is keeping communication channels open in non judgmental ways ... as PP noted, there is a lot of evidence to support how important this is for our youth.