Why is ante bellum racist?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:My friends who were Kappas at UGA went to parties like this with KAs where they would wear those hoop skirt dresses and the men dressed like confederate generals. I've seen the photos. I cannot believe they had that in the late 90s. And I went to Chapel Hill, which is in the south but we didn't even those kind of parties. I mean tons of photos (the ones where the professional photographers comes and it has the date, the name of the frat/sorority and name of the party on the bottom). They told me you had to rent the dresses and uniforms. Gross all around. And friends would post on their fb page writing "OMG look at how young we were, ha ha."

People can be so stupid.

To be grossed out by costumes really is kind of stupid.

It’s really weird to me that this has been explained several times on this thread - Confederate cosplay glories slavery - and you still pretend not to see it. When people say and type this kind of thing, it’s difficult to pretend that it doesn’t come from a place of deep, unexamined racism.

That's your opinion, but it is not the opinion of those who engage in Confederate cosplay. Why should I trust your opinion over the opinion of the people who actually wear the costume?

NP, but uh, is this a serious question? That’s like saying “In your opinion, KKK robes are offensive and worn by domestic terrorists, but that’s not the opinion of those who are Klansmen. Why should I trust your opinion over the opinion of the people who actually wear KKK robes?”

What about movies depicting that era? How should the actors dress? Should those movies be banned as well?

I take it that nuance isn't really your thing

DP. Nor is it yours. Nor do you seem aware that HBO pulled Gone with the Wind for it's racism until people complained and they put it back with contextual explainers for how it ignores the horrors of slavery. Which is a fine solution to me, but if that works, why can't I dress like Scarlet O'Hara at a party without endorsing either greed or racism?

Because your costume, presumably, won’t include explicit condemnation of slavery, oppression, and racism, which will give the appearance that you are romanticizing a fictional slave owner and her life story, which was rife with racism. If you felt strongly about condemning the glorification of these things, you wouldn’t pick that costume in the first place. When was the last time you watched Gone With the Wind? You might not accurately remember just how racist it is. It’s painful to watch the depictions of the slaves.

Gone with the wind is awesome. There’s a reason it’s a classic. So there’s slaves in it, there were slaves then. Would you prefer a civil war film that has robots instead of slaves? Or squirrels?

Maybe you ought to watch Gone with the Wind and see HOW those slaves were portrayed.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:People are free to throw antebellum parties if they want. Other people are also free to think that they are in bad taste. Nobody is proposing a ban on it.

Sure, and we don't have to make the party goers feel good about themselves.

And we the antebellum party goers don’t have to give a fiddle-dee-dee what you think.

That is totally fine. But i think what is bothering the OP and others who go on about canceling things is that the group of those that think the party-goers are racist is becoming a far larger group than the antebellum party goers. Gone are the days when you could go to the antebellum party and not have some in society look at you in a way you dislike. If you are Ok with that - no worries. Its those who want to both go to these events AND be thought as upstanding moral citizens by everyone they meet that are having a hard time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Are we not vacationing in the Caribbean now because that was the landing spot for enslaved people?

TIA - planning my post-COVID travel.

You are very bad at analogies. Are you planning to dress as a slave trader? Your comment is irrelevant and ridiculous.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Thank you for this. Can you (or someone) address the question of reliving the trauma daily as an aspect of culture in contrast to others who witnessed similar hatred (not slavery, but see the earlier Japanese poster with living examples of similar legalized discrimination) but who don’t seem to wear it as a badge? Their experience is still very real - see Georgia yesterday.

I’m the PP you’re replying to, and I have to say I find it offensive that you refer to descending from enslaved people as “a badge,” like it’s a conscious decision to don it, to think about yourself that way. I’m also the PP whose great grandpa killed himself and I can assure you that I don’t consciously think about that, but it informs who I am. And that was one trauma, a hundred years ago, and there was no societal machine that made that happen.

Again, short of the genocide perpetrated on the Native Americans, there is no other American counterpart to what was done to Black people here. That doesn’t make the very real bigotry against Asians and the violence they face right now any less real or traumatic, but in scale and scope, it’s just not the same.

I don’t know if you’re intending to try and compare the two, but there are those people who bring up prejudice and violence against Asians as a means of trying to tell Black people to just get over it. I don’t think you’re doing that, but you might want to be aware that that is a cudgel used against Black people sometimes.

I’m not using “badge” as if it is an honorific. It is to say “here is a thing I wear on my sleeve” - a label maybe? But a label that becomes a part of individual identity. I am the WT poster just above this and PP. it’s not a “get over it already” statement which I agree isn’t the way it works. But there is an element of self inflicted re-wounds, like using slurs or trying to reappropriate them within your own group, which is just a form of self harm. Like “remember where you came from” - as if that somehow means you can’t go somewhere else than a prescribed path.

It doesn’t matter whether your ancestors were slave owners or sharecroppers or abolitionists or were not Americans at the time. You should not cosplay as antebellum Southern gentry or display Confederate flags or pose with a noose in blackface or the other stupid shit that Southern fraternities and sororities think are awesome. Don’t be a racist asshole no matter what your ancestors did. This is not complicated.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thank you for this. Can you (or someone) address the question of reliving the trauma daily as an aspect of culture in contrast to others who witnessed similar hatred (not slavery, but see the earlier Japanese poster with living examples of similar legalized discrimination) but who don’t seem to wear it as a badge? Their experience is still very real - see Georgia yesterday.

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Pardon me, but a U. S. Congressman stated out loud what many others are thinking, that the attempted coup on Jan 6th would have been concerning if it was a civil rights protest (aka Black Lives Matter). Meanwhile State Legislators are currently working to make it more difficult for people to vote. The votes of US citizens in “certain” geographies with large black populations were actively under attack by government officials including the President, and you want to have a philosophical discussion, then end to which you have predetermined by likening the culture / trauma of being black in America to wearing a badge. There is an entire governmental infrastructure actively working against a group of people...today, and you want to talk about reliving trauma, and not acknowledge living trauma! Welcome to America.

But at what point do those same Congressmembers recognize the political motivations of organize BLM riots that destroyed cities last summer? I agree that the Capitol riot was nonsensical. I also think the lack of ownership of who was financing and/or implicitly condoning BLM is a bit rich.

Cities were destroyed? Like Dresden in 1945? Were they declared disaster zones? Are they uninhabitable? Are there recovery funds to donate to and if so please share the names of those charities to rebuild those destroyed cities.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:An antebellum party is racist because it is a celebration/replication of the lifestyle of the uber wealthy, slave owning, white people living on plantations in the pre Civil War south. These people owned and amassed their wealth, and were afforded this opulent lifestyle and their parties because they were slaveowners and amassed ridiculous wealth by owning other human beings.

Why would anyone have a party to celebrate this dark chapter in american history? Not a great choice for a theme for a party. Do you understand?

An antebellum party is about the clothes. I've never been to one, but I can tell you that is what I see. It also includes mint juleps. Lots of them.

It is very specifically about the clothes that the richest and most elite class of southerners wore. So everyone goes to the party dressed like elite, wealthy southern plantation owners, aka people who are wealthy from human slavery.

Yeah so? Ever heard of the Society for Creative Anacronism. where people dress up in the clothes of Medieval elites who were wealthy due to human serfdom, the second worst thing in the world, next to slavery? What about toga parties? That's where you dress up in the clothes of an ancient Roman elite that got wealthy based on slavery and world domination. Do we have to stop all that too?

How about dressing up as Nazis? They loved a good uniform you know. It's just about the clothes right?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:An antebellum party is racist because it is a celebration/replication of the lifestyle of the uber wealthy, slave owning, white people living on plantations in the pre Civil War south. These people owned and amassed their wealth, and were afforded this opulent lifestyle and their parties because they were slaveowners and amassed ridiculous wealth by owning other human beings.

Why would anyone have a party to celebrate this dark chapter in american history? Not a great choice for a theme for a party. Do you understand?

An antebellum party is about the clothes. I've never been to one, but I can tell you that is what I see. It also includes mint juleps. Lots of them.

It is very specifically about the clothes that the richest and most elite class of southerners wore. So everyone goes to the party dressed like elite, wealthy southern plantation owners, aka people who are wealthy from human slavery.

Yeah so? Ever heard of the Society for Creative Anacronism. where people dress up in the clothes of Medieval elites who were wealthy due to human serfdom, the second worst thing in the world, next to slavery? What about toga parties? That's where you dress up in the clothes of an ancient Roman elite that got wealthy based on slavery and world domination. Do we have to stop all that too?

How about dressing up as Nazis? They loved a good uniform you know. It's just about the clothes right?

Im pretty much of the thinking that you dont dress up to impersonate a group of people who were known to commit genocide and/or portray those that were. Never seen anyone dress like a slave or rohingya or concentration camp prisoner(yellow star)/political prisoner(red triangle) in Germany or possible Cambodian/Rwandan/Armenian who was killed during a genocide. BUT I do know that people like to dress up as Nazis, antebellum women and men, crusaders, Ottoman paramilitary, etc. Its only "fun" when you are cosplaying the individuals in power.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thank you for this. Can you (or someone) address the question of reliving the trauma daily as an aspect of culture in contrast to others who witnessed similar hatred (not slavery, but see the earlier Japanese poster with living examples of similar legalized discrimination) but who don’t seem to wear it as a badge? Their experience is still very real - see Georgia yesterday.

.

Pardon me, but a U. S. Congressman stated out loud what many others are thinking, that the attempted coup on Jan 6th would have been concerning if it was a civil rights protest (aka Black Lives Matter). Meanwhile State Legislators are currently working to make it more difficult for people to vote. The votes of US citizens in “certain” geographies with large black populations were actively under attack by government officials including the President, and you want to have a philosophical discussion, then end to which you have predetermined by likening the culture / trauma of being black in America to wearing a badge. There is an entire governmental infrastructure actively working against a group of people...today, and you want to talk about reliving trauma, and not acknowledge living trauma! Welcome to America.

But at what point do those same Congressmembers recognize the political motivations of organize BLM riots that destroyed cities last summer? I agree that the Capitol riot was nonsensical. I also think the lack of ownership of who was financing and/or implicitly condoning BLM is a bit rich.

Cities were destroyed? Like Dresden in 1945? Were they declared disaster zones? Are they uninhabitable? Are there recovery funds to donate to and if so please share the names of those charities to rebuild those destroyed cities.

White people can do that much damage celebrating a basketball tournament.

[Anonymous]

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DP. Nor is it yours. Nor do you seem aware that HBO pulled Gone with the Wind for it's racism until people complained and they put it back with contextual explainers for how it ignores the horrors of slavery. Which is a fine solution to me, but if that works, why can't I dress like Scarlet O'Hara at a party without endorsing either greed or racism?

Because your costume, presumably, won’t include explicit condemnation of slavery, oppression, and racism, which will give the appearance that you are romanticizing a fictional slave owner and her life story, which was rife with racism. If you felt strongly about condemning the glorification of these things, you wouldn’t pick that costume in the first place. When was the last time you watched Gone With the Wind? You might not accurately remember just how racist it is. It’s painful to watch the depictions of the slaves.

Gone with the wind is awesome. There’s a reason it’s a classic. So there’s slaves in it, there were slaves then. Would you prefer a civil war film that has robots instead of slaves? Or squirrels?

Love this!

Gone With the Wind depicts one female slave as childlike, hysterical, and ignorant. All 3 of the main slave characters are dependent on Scarlet to figure out what ever shall they do, how they will eat, how will they maintain Tara. Though the quintessential Southern belle, Scarlet is the only one with the ingenuity, gumption, work ethic and courage to keep everyone alive. As though Scarlet would have had any clue how to do anything and slaves would have needed her to show them the way. 🙄 She’s the white savior who cares for these slaves who couldn’t make it on their own without a master to tell them what to do. Those slaves sure were lucky to have her! 🤮

One of you pretends there was simply no other way to portray slaves and gives absurd alternatives, and the other poster loves it!

You’re terrible people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:
DP. Nor is it yours. Nor do you seem aware that HBO pulled Gone with the Wind for it's racism until people complained and they put it back with contextual explainers for how it ignores the horrors of slavery. Which is a fine solution to me, but if that works, why can't I dress like Scarlet O'Hara at a party without endorsing either greed or racism?

Because your costume, presumably, won’t include explicit condemnation of slavery, oppression, and racism, which will give the appearance that you are romanticizing a fictional slave owner and her life story, which was rife with racism. If you felt strongly about condemning the glorification of these things, you wouldn’t pick that costume in the first place. When was the last time you watched Gone With the Wind? You might not accurately remember just how racist it is. It’s painful to watch the depictions of the slaves.

Gone with the wind is awesome. There’s a reason it’s a classic. So there’s slaves in it, there were slaves then. Would you prefer a civil war film that has robots instead of slaves? Or squirrels?

Love this!

Gone With the Wind depicts one female slave as childlike, hysterical, and ignorant. All 3 of the main slave characters are dependent on Scarlet to figure out what ever shall they do, how they will eat, how will they maintain Tara. Though the quintessential Southern belle, Scarlet is the only one with the ingenuity, gumption, work ethic and courage to keep everyone alive. As though Scarlet would have had any clue how to do anything and slaves would have needed her to show them the way. 🙄 She’s the white savior who cares for these slaves who couldn’t make it on their own without a master to tell them what to do. Those slaves sure were lucky to have her! 🤮

One of you pretends there was simply no other way to portray slaves and gives absurd alternatives, and the other poster loves it!

You’re terrible people.

*Messed up the formatting. Reposting.

Gone With the Wind depicts one female slave as childlike, hysterical, and ignorant. All 3 of the main slave characters are dependent on Scarlet to figure out what ever shall they do, how they will eat, how will they maintain Tara. Though the quintessential Southern belle, Scarlet is the only one with the ingenuity, gumption, work ethic and courage to keep everyone alive. As though Scarlet would have had any clue how to do anything and slaves would have needed her to show them the way. 🙄 She’s the white savior who cares for these slaves who couldn’t make it on their own without a master to tell them what to do. Those slaves sure were lucky to have her! 🤮

One of you pretends there was simply no other way to portray slaves and gives absurd alternatives, and the other poster loves it!

You’re terrible people.

[Anonymous]

I’m still messing up the formatting! I give up.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m still messing up the formatting! I give up.

Here you go PP:

Gone With the Wind depicts one female slave as childlike, hysterical, and ignorant. All 3 of the main slave characters are dependent on Scarlet to figure out what ever shall they do, how they will eat, how will they maintain Tara. Though the quintessential Southern belle, Scarlet is the only one with the ingenuity, gumption, work ethic and courage to keep everyone alive. As though Scarlet would have had any clue how to do anything and slaves would have needed her to show them the way. 🙄 She’s the white savior who cares for these slaves who couldn’t make it on their own without a master to tell them what to do. Those slaves sure were lucky to have her! 🤮

One of you pretends there was simply no other way to portray slaves and gives absurd alternatives, and the other poster loves it!

You’re terrible people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m still messing up the formatting! I give up.

Here you go PP:

Gone With the Wind depicts one female slave as childlike, hysterical, and ignorant. All 3 of the main slave characters are dependent on Scarlet to figure out what ever shall they do, how they will eat, how will they maintain Tara. Though the quintessential Southern belle, Scarlet is the only one with the ingenuity, gumption, work ethic and courage to keep everyone alive. As though Scarlet would have had any clue how to do anything and slaves would have needed her to show them the way. 🙄 She’s the white savior who cares for these slaves who couldn’t make it on their own without a master to tell them what to do. Those slaves sure were lucky to have her! 🤮

One of you pretends there was simply no other way to portray slaves and gives absurd alternatives, and the other poster loves it!

You’re terrible people.

I actually think people know this but want to pretend it’s not true. It’s like in the Matrix. There will always be a large part of the community that wants to live in ignorance because it’s more comfortable that way. Some will choose the blue pill.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m still messing up the formatting! I give up.

Here you go PP:

Gone With the Wind depicts one female slave as childlike, hysterical, and ignorant. All 3 of the main slave characters are dependent on Scarlet to figure out what ever shall they do, how they will eat, how will they maintain Tara. Though the quintessential Southern belle, Scarlet is the only one with the ingenuity, gumption, work ethic and courage to keep everyone alive. As though Scarlet would have had any clue how to do anything and slaves would have needed her to show them the way. 🙄 She’s the white savior who cares for these slaves who couldn’t make it on their own without a master to tell them what to do. Those slaves sure were lucky to have her! 🤮

One of you pretends there was simply no other way to portray slaves and gives absurd alternatives, and the other poster loves it!

You’re terrible people.

I actually think people know this but want to pretend it’s not true. It’s like in the Matrix. There will always be a large part of the community that wants to live in ignorance because it’s more comfortable that way. Some will choose the blue pill.

As long as you believe that other people secretly know you are right, you will never have to face the discomfort of your own ignorance.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m still messing up the formatting! I give up.

Here you go PP:

Gone With the Wind depicts one female slave as childlike, hysterical, and ignorant. All 3 of the main slave characters are dependent on Scarlet to figure out what ever shall they do, how they will eat, how will they maintain Tara. Though the quintessential Southern belle, Scarlet is the only one with the ingenuity, gumption, work ethic and courage to keep everyone alive. As though Scarlet would have had any clue how to do anything and slaves would have needed her to show them the way. 🙄 She’s the white savior who cares for these slaves who couldn’t make it on their own without a master to tell them what to do. Those slaves sure were lucky to have her! 🤮

One of you pretends there was simply no other way to portray slaves and gives absurd alternatives, and the other poster loves it!

You’re terrible people.

Thanks for the assist!