How does one prep place account for 25% of TJ Admissions?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you want it to be fair use a standardized tests that is more readily available, have every kid take it, have a cut off where you view anyone above the threshold as qualified and use a lottery of every kid who meets the standard to determine spots

I once had a student with near-perfect auditory recall. The only test questions she got wrong was one where I had misstated something, once. Her mom had it too, and could quote my BTSN presentation to me. She is, to this day, the smartest kid I’ve taught. It would be unjust to cut her out of TJ for some political reason. I lost track of her when I moved, but I would be shocked if she didn’t get in.

And that's a big part of why, in spite of my sincere desire to see TJ admissions reformed, I do not support a lottery that could potentially exclude the 100 or so kids in each class that truly, genuinely belong there.

Then select the 50-100 kids who are a clear cut above the rest. Lottery the remaining spots on a racially representative basis. This wouldn't even change TJ much, aside from creating diversity. The top 50 or so kids in each class are standouts, and the remainder are indistinguishable from all of the other kids who made semifinalist but didn't get picked.

There's a lot of truth in this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:From another thread but more relevant to this one:

Dig even a little further into Curie's Facebook page and you'll find photos of a similar list from 2019 - the class of 2023. This list has 95 students admitted to TJ, and would have been the second year of the Quant-Q.

https://www.facebook.com/curielearningllc/photos/a...6414351848218/1216596798496640

And here is the list from 2018 - which would have been the first year of the Quant-Q. Only 51 successful TJ applicants!

https://www.facebook.com/curielearningllc/photos/a...5923525897303/975988479224141/

From 51 to 95 to 133 in the first three years of the Quant-Q. The most charitable explanation is that the organization has gained a reputation and has grown because of good word of mouth. A darker explanation is that they're handing kids an exam that is supposed to be secure - which is what TJ kids are telling us that they're doing.

You decide.

I can't view facebook. Can someone screenshot the posts?

https://imgur.com/gallery/JFvI9Zd

Looking at the list of students posted on Curie FB, substantially all Loudoun kids who were accepted to TJ were also accepted to AOS and AET. So, does this imply there was cheating at AOS and AET too? I don't think so. I think the simpler explanation is that many parents who see potential in their children (either through grades, GT programs, SOLs, course selections etc), and are motivated to pursue admissions to TJ/AOS/AET, and have the means, enroll their children at Curie or other prep centers (which have become popular through word of mouth and track record). The children being relatively academically ahead, combined with rigorous work at Curie et al are in better shape to do well at the TJ/AOS/AET entrance tests and are therefore accepted at higher rates.

[Anonymous]

or it implies that they are smart, did well enough to get into the two less selective schools and cheating put them over the hump into the more selective one as well

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:From another thread but more relevant to this one:

Dig even a little further into Curie's Facebook page and you'll find photos of a similar list from 2019 - the class of 2023. This list has 95 students admitted to TJ, and would have been the second year of the Quant-Q.

https://www.facebook.com/curielearningllc/photos/a...6414351848218/1216596798496640

And here is the list from 2018 - which would have been the first year of the Quant-Q. Only 51 successful TJ applicants!

https://www.facebook.com/curielearningllc/photos/a...5923525897303/975988479224141/

From 51 to 95 to 133 in the first three years of the Quant-Q. The most charitable explanation is that the organization has gained a reputation and has grown because of good word of mouth. A darker explanation is that they're handing kids an exam that is supposed to be secure - which is what TJ kids are telling us that they're doing.

You decide.

I can't view facebook. Can someone screenshot the posts?

https://imgur.com/gallery/JFvI9Zd

Looking at the list of students posted on Curie FB, substantially all Loudoun kids who were accepted to TJ were also accepted to AOS and AET. So, does this imply there was cheating at AOS and AET too? I don't think so. I think the simpler explanation is that many parents who see potential in their children (either through grades, GT programs, SOLs, course selections etc), and are motivated to pursue admissions to TJ/AOS/AET, and have the means, enroll their children at Curie or other prep centers (which have become popular through word of mouth and track record). The children being relatively academically ahead, combined with rigorous work at Curie et al are in better shape to do well at the TJ/AOS/AET entrance tests and are therefore accepted at higher rates.

The cheating isn't at TJ. It's at Curie with respect to the TJ exam. It is confirmed by TJ students. Other narratives are not needed and serve only to occlude the major scandal that is only just now being exposed to the greater Northern Virginia community.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:or it implies that they are smart, did well enough to get into the two less selective schools and cheating put them over the hump into the more selective one as well

BINGO

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Looking at the list of students posted on Curie FB, substantially all Loudoun kids who were accepted to TJ were also accepted to AOS and AET. So, does this imply there was cheating at AOS and AET too? I don't think so. I think the simpler explanation is that many parents who see potential in their children (either through grades, GT programs, SOLs, course selections etc), and are motivated to pursue admissions to TJ/AOS/AET, and have the means, enroll their children at Curie or other prep centers (which have become popular through word of mouth and track record). The children being relatively academically ahead, combined with rigorous work at Curie et al are in better shape to do well at the TJ/AOS/AET entrance tests and are therefore accepted at higher rates.

Even if you're correct, and there isn't actual cheating happening, the fact that a single prep center serving a single racial group can get 25% of the TJ seats shows that the TJ admission process is horribly flawed. One way or another, TJ needs to reform its testing and acceptance metrics, so that extensive prep isn't the deciding factor in getting in.

It's hardly surprising that there are so few AA and Hispanic kids at TJ. Even the ones who are gifted and love STEM can't compete with kids who have been exhaustively prepped and groomed for TJ since preschool.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you want it to be fair use a standardized tests that is more readily available, have every kid take it, have a cut off where you view anyone above the threshold as qualified and use a lottery of every kid who meets the standard to determine spots

I once had a student with near-perfect auditory recall. The only test questions she got wrong was one where I had misstated something, once. Her mom had it too, and could quote my BTSN presentation to me. She is, to this day, the smartest kid I’ve taught. It would be unjust to cut her out of TJ for some political reason. I lost track of her when I moved, but I would be shocked if she didn’t get in.

And that's a big part of why, in spite of my sincere desire to see TJ admissions reformed, I do not support a lottery that could potentially exclude the 100 or so kids in each class that truly, genuinely belong there.

Then select the 50-100 kids who are a clear cut above the rest. Lottery the remaining spots on a racially representative basis. This wouldn't even change TJ much, aside from creating diversity. The top 50 or so kids in each class are standouts, and the remainder are indistinguishable from all of the other kids who made semifinalist but didn't get picked.

How do you "clearly" identify the 50-100 kids that are above the rest? You need objective criteria and there will not be an agreement on what are the objective criteria which is why TJ uses a holistic criteria. Also iff cutoff is 50, is it not unfair to the kid placed 51st?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Then select the 50-100 kids who are a clear cut above the rest. Lottery the remaining spots on a racially representative basis. This wouldn't even change TJ much, aside from creating diversity. The top 50 or so kids in each class are standouts, and the remainder are indistinguishable from all of the other kids who made semifinalist but didn't get picked.

How do you "clearly" identify the 50-100 kids that are above the rest? You need objective criteria and there will not be an agreement on what are the objective criteria which is why TJ uses a holistic criteria. Also iff cutoff is 50, is it not unfair to the kid placed 51st?

It wouldn't need to be exactly 50, and it's not that hard to find the kids who have earned national level recognition for their achievements. This would be the chance for TJ to admit kids who make JMO as a 7th or 8th grader, kids who compete in Mathcounts nationals, kids who place high nationally at Science Olympiad, etc. Some kids have achievements way above and beyond regular bright, motivated kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Everything seems to be about “gaining an edge” and exploiting every possible angle with these TJHSST families. They absolutely suck all the fun out of high school with their grim zero-sum game mentality. It provides quite a window as to why applications from other students have been declining sharply.

Says the racist who cannot work hard.

TJ grad here who managed to get in without prepping, succeed without cheating, and graduate with a 4.1/1560/$10K+ in scholarship offers...all with minimal parental oversight. Sorry about your need to control your kid's entire life at any cost rather than actually raise a self-motivated individual.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:or it implies that they are smart, did well enough to get into the two less selective schools and cheating put them over the hump into the more selective one as well

Loudoun school board/admin and residents will take offense at the suggestion that AOS/AET is less selective and their admission process less rigorous than TJ.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Looking at the list of students posted on Curie FB, substantially all Loudoun kids who were accepted to TJ were also accepted to AOS and AET. So, does this imply there was cheating at AOS and AET too? I don't think so. I think the simpler explanation is that many parents who see potential in their children (either through grades, GT programs, SOLs, course selections etc), and are motivated to pursue admissions to TJ/AOS/AET, and have the means, enroll their children at Curie or other prep centers (which have become popular through word of mouth and track record). The children being relatively academically ahead, combined with rigorous work at Curie et al are in better shape to do well at the TJ/AOS/AET entrance tests and are therefore accepted at higher rates.

Even if you're correct, and there isn't actual cheating happening, the fact that a single prep center serving a single racial group can get 25% of the TJ seats shows that the TJ admission process is horribly flawed. One way or another, TJ needs to reform its testing and acceptance metrics, so that extensive prep isn't the deciding factor in getting in.

It's hardly surprising that there are so few AA and Hispanic kids at TJ. Even the ones who are gifted and love STEM can't compete with kids who have been exhaustively prepped and groomed for TJ since preschool.

BINGO BINGO

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you want it to be fair use a standardized tests that is more readily available, have every kid take it, have a cut off where you view anyone above the threshold as qualified and use a lottery of every kid who meets the standard to determine spots

I once had a student with near-perfect auditory recall. The only test questions she got wrong was one where I had misstated something, once. Her mom had it too, and could quote my BTSN presentation to me. She is, to this day, the smartest kid I’ve taught. It would be unjust to cut her out of TJ for some political reason. I lost track of her when I moved, but I would be shocked if she didn’t get in.

And that's a big part of why, in spite of my sincere desire to see TJ admissions reformed, I do not support a lottery that could potentially exclude the 100 or so kids in each class that truly, genuinely belong there.

Then select the 50-100 kids who are a clear cut above the rest. Lottery the remaining spots on a racially representative basis. This wouldn't even change TJ much, aside from creating diversity. The top 50 or so kids in each class are standouts, and the remainder are indistinguishable from all of the other kids who made semifinalist but didn't get picked.

How do you "clearly" identify the 50-100 kids that are above the rest? You need objective criteria and there will not be an agreement on what are the objective criteria which is why TJ uses a holistic criteria. Also iff cutoff is 50, is it not unfair to the kid placed 51st?

You actually don't need objective criteria to figure this out. And there wouldn't be a cutoff. If the 51st kid is legitimately at the same level as the 50th, they'd get in. Same with the 52nd. If the dropoff is from 49 to 50, that's where the cutoff would be.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Everything seems to be about “gaining an edge” and exploiting every possible angle with these TJHSST families. They absolutely suck all the fun out of high school with their grim zero-sum game mentality. It provides quite a window as to why applications from other students have been declining sharply.

Says the racist who cannot work hard.

TJ grad here who managed to get in without prepping, succeed without cheating, and graduate with a 4.1/1560/$10K+ in scholarship offers...all with minimal parental oversight. Sorry about your need to control your kid's entire life at any cost rather than actually raise a self-motivated individual.

BINGO. There are plenty of kids at TJ right now who belong at TJ. There are also plenty of kids who have faked their way in through prepping and stayed in through cheating. If you've been there for any length of time, you know and understand this reality and also that the numbers of the latter have been growing significantly for the last decade or so.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:or it implies that they are smart, did well enough to get into the two less selective schools and cheating put them over the hump into the more selective one as well

Loudoun school board/admin and residents will take offense at the suggestion that AOS/AET is less selective and their admission process less rigorous than TJ.

Didn't write the post you quoted. It's possible that they are every bit as selective and rigorous as TJ, but they aren't anywhere in the same league when it comes to prestige.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
You actually don't need objective criteria to figure this out. And there wouldn't be a cutoff. If the 51st kid is legitimately at the same level as the 50th, they'd get in. Same with the 52nd. If the dropoff is from 49 to 50, that's where the cutoff would be.

They should get rid of teacher recommendations and essays, and instead ask the TJ semifinalists for a list of their 5 greatest achievements, as well as some sort of documentation verifying the achievement. Most TJ semifinalists will come across as very smart, motivated, but ultimately pretty normal kids. A smaller handful will seem legitimately very impressive. Pick those kids, and then lottery off the remaining spots.