why do people prefer AP schools to IB?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Personally, I think the program is fantastic. Smaller classes, more individual attention and writing feedback, and actual mentorship. It's a cool program and if a kid is bright enough and hard working enough to complete it, I think kudos.

So, another way we are paying more for IB?

For better services!

To the detriment of others. Not good stewardship of funds.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:IB is trendy and overrated. The IB high schools in FCPS have, with one exception due to geography, declined since IB replaced AP. Not a single AP school in the county wants IB, parents at one school successfully rebelled and got FCPS to restore AP, and FCPS did not make IB the college-prep curriculum at the two high schools it built after the initial wave of AP-to-IB conversions (Westfield and South County). Now it needs to acknowledge how few students at most IB schools participate in the program and terminate IB at the majority of IB high schools in the county. That would give students better options and save money over the long run.

Schools with Top SAT Scores in FCPS (All AP)

TJHSST 2198
Langley 1851
McLean 1821
Madison 1789
Woodson 1755
Oakton 1750

Schools with Most National Merit Semifinalists in FCPS (10 out of 11 are AP)

TJ 145
Langley 11
McLean 11
Madison 8
Marshall 7
Woodson 7
Oakton 6
Centreville 5
Chantilly 5
Lake Braddock 4
Westfield 4

US News Top 10 High Schools in VA from FCPS (All AP)

#1 Thomas Jefferson High School for Science and Technology
#2 McLean High School
#3 Langley High School
#4 Oakton High School
#5 Woodson High School
#8 West Springfield High School

A few years ago, someone on DCUM broke the SAT scores down by demographic at each HS. It was quite eye opening. Things aren't always as they seem.

Found it - it was a three-year average of the SAT scores from 2013-15 for FCPS and APS:

All Students:

TJ (AP and beyond): 2221
Langley (AP) 1864
McLean (AP) 1831
Woodson (AP) 1813
Oakton (AP) 1798
Madison (AP) 1787
Marshall (IB) 1756
YORKTOWN (AP) 1737
Chantilly (AP) 1705
Robinson (IB) 1703
West Springfield (AP) 1692
Lake Braddock (AP) 1686
South Lakes (IB) 1684
WASHINGTON-LEE (IB/AP) 1675
Westfield (AP) 1673
Herndon (AP) 1667
Fairfax (AP) 1657
Centreville (AP) 1656
South County (AP) 1635
West Potomac (AP) 1601
Edison (IB) 1541
Hayfield (AP) 1539
Annandale (IB) 1530
Falls Church (AP) 1530
Stuart (IB) 1530
Lee (IB) 1497
WAKEFIELD (AP) 1449
Mount Vernon (IB) 1443

White Students:

TJ 2212 (25.6% White)
WASHINGTON-LEE 1841 (41.5%)
Langley 1838 (65.2%)
McLean 1836 (58.4%)
Woodson 1819 (56.0%)
YORKTOWN 1810 (64.3%)
Marshall 1802 (54.4%)
Oakton 1792 (53.4%)
Madison 1788 (65.7%)
South Lakes 1754 (44.1%)
Herndon 1745 (36.6%)
Robinson 1739 (58.8%)
West Potomac 1733 (37.3%)
West Springfield 1727 (56.7%)
Lake Braddock 1714 (50.0%)
Chantilly 1704 (44.4%)
South County 1693 (45.7%)
Fairfax 1682 (40.7%)
Westfield 1682 (41.0%)
Stuart 1676 (23.4%)
Centreville 1668 (37.7%)
Annandale 1663 (17.0%)
Falls Church 1651 (19.9%)
Hayfield 1634 (32.3%)
WAKEFIELD 1633 (19.4%)
Edison 1627 (27.2%)
Mount Vernon 1577 (20.0%)
Lee 1562 (18.7%)

Asian Students:

TJ 2231 (63.4% Asian)
Langley 1961 (23.5%)
McLean 1883 (21.8%)
Oakton 1877 (26.7%)
Madison 1858 (14.0%)
Woodson 1848 (22.3%)
Westfield 1781 (20.9%)
Chantilly 1778 (30.4%)
Lake Braddock 1756 (19.3%)
Marshall 1752 (17.6%)
Centreville 1738 (32.2%)
South Lakes 1737 (11.7%)
Robinson 1731 (15.1%)
Fairfax 1715 (22.3%)
West Springfield 1714 (14.2%)
South County 1688 (19.2%)
Herndon 1639 (12.0%)
YORKTOWN 1610 (9.2%)
WASHINGTON-LEE 1578 (10.0%)
West Potomac 1575 (6.5%)
Edison 1572 (14.6%)
Hayfield 1566 (13.9%)
Falls Church 1547 (21.0%)
Annandale 1543 (20.2%)
Stuart 1530 (13.6%)
Lee 1521 (23.8%)
Mount Vernon 1499 (6.2%)
WAKEFIELD 1477 (9.4%)

Black Students:

TJ 2145 (1.4% Black)
Madison 1659 (1.9%)
Oakton 1620 (4.6%)
Langley 1610 (1.0%)
McLean 1600 (2.6%)
Woodson 1600 (5.0%)
Marshall 1582 (4.6%)
Chantilly 1530 (6.9%)
Lake Braddock 1527 (6.3%)
West Springfield 1508 (6.9%)
Robinson 1507 (6.6%)
Fairfax 1496 (10.4%)
Westfield 1473 (12.1%)
South Lakes 1471 (13.1%)
Centreville 1457 (9.0%)
Edison 1457 (21.4%)
Hayfield 1443 (27.4%)
South County 1441 (17.9%)
Herndon 1438 (8.4%)
Lee 1425 (13.8%)
Annandale 1423 (17.0%)
WASHINGTON-LEE 1390 (9.6%)
YORKTOWN 1378 (5.7%)
Stuart 1364 (10.1%)
Falls Church 1355 (7.1%)
West Potomac 1336 (18.0%)
Mount Vernon 1334 (27.3%)
WAKEFIELD 1334 (22.0%)

Hispanic Students:

TJ 2167 (2.2% Hispanic)
Langley 1806 (5.3%)
McLean 1727 (12.2%)
Woodson 1695 (11.2%)
Madison 1694 (12.3%)
Oakton 1689 (10.0%)
Robinson 1554 (14.0%)
West Springfield 1554 (15.7%)
YORKTOWN 1547 (15.7%)
Marshall 1544 (17.1%)
Chantilly 1543 (13.9%)
Westfield 1540 (20.9%)
WASHINGTON-LEE 1516 (33.5%)
South Lakes 1514 (24.1%)
Lake Braddock 1502 (18.4%)
South County 1495 (10.8%)
Fairfax 1489 (20.8%)
Centreville 1472 (17.0%)
Herndon 1472 (39.0%)
Hayfield 1465 (20.4%)
Mount Vernon 1431 (41.7%)
Edison 1430 (32.3%)
Falls Church 1427 (48.3%)
Stuart 1421 (50.3%)
Annandale 1416 (43.5%)
West Potomac 1409 (34.1%)
WAKEFIELD 1404 (44.3%)
Lee 1401 (40.0%)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Personally, I think the program is fantastic. Smaller classes, more individual attention and writing feedback, and actual mentorship. It's a cool program and if a kid is bright enough and hard working enough to complete it, I think kudos.

So, another way we are paying more for IB?

For better services!

To the detriment of others. Not good stewardship of funds.

Well, isn't that everything, lol. AAP, Sports, even AP classes. It all comes at a cost.

And I have to say, AP classes don't have the required faculty supports. When I took AP classes, it was basically just a class that taught the content for the test. It wasn't as hands on supportive as IB.

[Anonymous]

These were also some interesting observations from that SAT analysis, a few relevant to the AP/IB discussion:

(1) TJ is in a class by itself;

(2) one distinguishing characteristic of the five neighborhood schools with the highest overall scores (Langley, McLean, Woodson, Oakton, Madison) is that students in every group have comparatively high scores;

(3) in numerous cases, white students at schools with relatively few white students do just as well if not better than white students at schools with more white students;

(4) the nine high schools with the highest scoring Asian students are all AP schools;

(5) the seven high schools with the highest scoring Black students all have 5.0% or lower AA enrollments as of September 2015, creating a potential dilemma for AA parents who want to send their kids to both top-performing schools and schools with significant numbers of AA students;

(6) apart from Langley and TJ, every high school in FCPS is at least 10% Hispanic now; and

(7) excluding TJ, the spread between the schools with the highest and lowest scores for white students (276 points) is considerably lower than the spread between the schools with the highest and lowest scores for Asian students (462 points), Black students (325 points) and Hispanic students (405).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Personally, I think the program is fantastic. Smaller classes, more individual attention and writing feedback, and actual mentorship. It's a cool program and if a kid is bright enough and hard working enough to complete it, I think kudos.

So, another way we are paying more for IB?

For better services!

To the detriment of others. Not good stewardship of funds.

Well, isn't that everything, lol. AAP, Sports, even AP classes. It all comes at a cost.

And I have to say, AP classes don't have the required faculty supports. When I took AP classes, it was basically just a class that taught the content for the test. It wasn't as hands on supportive as IB.

You have to look at how AP or IB is delivered in the individual school. A great deal of IB is based on pre-packaged content from the IBO that requires little individualized mentoring.

[Anonymous]

"(2) one distinguishing characteristic of the five neighborhood schools with the highest overall scores (Langley, McLean, Woodson, Oakton, Madison) is that students in every group have comparatively high scores; "

It's not about "race" -- it's about HOUSEHOLD INCOME (which is a proxy for education level, backround of parents).

[Anonymous]

It's funny to read the same recycled posts from the IB boosters and then watch the AP schools come out on top again every year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"(2) one distinguishing characteristic of the five neighborhood schools with the highest overall scores (Langley, McLean, Woodson, Oakton, Madison) is that students in every group have comparatively high scores; "

It's not about "race" -- it's about HOUSEHOLD INCOME (which is a proxy for education level, backround of parents).

Ding Ding Ding.

It's a chicken or egg situation. Look at Falls Church City. Zero drama about the IB program.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Personally, I think the program is fantastic. Smaller classes, more individual attention and writing feedback, and actual mentorship. It's a cool program and if a kid is bright enough and hard working enough to complete it, I think kudos.

So, another way we are paying more for IB?

For better services!

To the detriment of others. Not good stewardship of funds.

Well, isn't that everything, lol. AAP, Sports, even AP classes. It all comes at a cost.

And I have to say, AP classes don't have the required faculty supports. When I took AP classes, it was basically just a class that taught the content for the test. It wasn't as hands on supportive as IB.

You have to look at how AP or IB is delivered in the individual school. A great deal of IB is based on pre-packaged content from the IBO that requires little individualized mentoring.

Come on...there is nothing to AP. It has no substance. It is a collection of individual class curriculi that would have been taught at the same level anyway at FCPS schools. It offers nothing. IB is a complete integrated curriculum. They are not comparable at all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:IB is trendy and overrated. The IB high schools in FCPS have, with one exception due to geography, declined since IB replaced AP. Not a single AP school in the county wants IB, parents at one school successfully rebelled and got FCPS to restore AP, and FCPS did not make IB the college-prep curriculum at the two high schools it built after the initial wave of AP-to-IB conversions (Westfield and South County). Now it needs to acknowledge how few students at most IB schools participate in the program and terminate IB at the majority of IB high schools in the county. That would give students better options and save money over the long run.

Schools with Top SAT Scores in FCPS (All AP)

TJHSST 2198
Langley 1851
McLean 1821
Madison 1789
Woodson 1755
Oakton 1750

Schools with Most National Merit Semifinalists in FCPS (10 out of 11 are AP)

TJ 145
Langley 11
McLean 11
Madison 8
Marshall 7
Woodson 7
Oakton 6
Centreville 5
Chantilly 5
Lake Braddock 4
Westfield 4

US News Top 10 High Schools in VA from FCPS (All AP)

#1 Thomas Jefferson High School for Science and Technology
#2 McLean High School
#3 Langley High School
#4 Oakton High School
#5 Woodson High School
#8 West Springfield High School

But IB is a complete integrated shit-show!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's funny to read the same recycled posts from the IB boosters and then watch the AP schools come out on top again every year.

IB was placed primarily in the worst performing schools in the county, and you are bragging that they have not magically improved to compare to McLean, Langley, Madison, etc? Moron.

[Anonymous]

I have a DS at Mt Vernon and he is an IB diploma candidate (he's a senior.) I have read through all the above threads and agree with a lot of what has been written. I think its a fabulous program and I'm glad my DS has decided to pursue the diploma. However, I would support getting rid of it at Mt Vernon. I don't see my younger children pursuing the diploma and wish we had AP as an option. It might help with some of the flight from the school. Keep the IB program at Marshall and maybe Lee (convenient location for the souther/eastern end of the county) and/or South Lakes.

I think Mt Vernon typically has about 20 students per year going for the diploma. The ones who are diploma candidates do very well in college admissions. Last year's graduates are at Northwestern, Harvard (two students are at Harvard), UVA, William & Mary & West Point. One of the students who is at Harvard was also admitted to Notre Dame, Yale, Princeton, Brown, UVA, William & Mary and a couple of other schools. If a student is not pursuing the diploma, I don't know if they are considered "second class citizens" at Mt. Vernon.

The administration at Mt. Vernon tells us college counselors will put the IB candidates into one pile of applications and everyone else in a second pile (giving the IB candidate better odds for admission.) The IB Organization has published a document that lists acceptance rates for everyone and acceptance rates for IB candidates. Some samples:

School - IB Rate - Total Population Rate
Brown 18% 9%
Cornell 31% 18%
Duke 28% 16%
UVA 64% 32%
UNC 63% 32%

The chart is on Page 19.
http://www.ibo.org/contentassets/12ca22e438df4a65b4c92e42b70b10ea/globaldpdestinationsurveyus.pdf

We'll see how my DS fares as we go through the college admission process this year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's funny to read the same recycled posts from the IB boosters and then watch the AP schools come out on top again every year.

IB was placed primarily in the worst performing schools in the county, and you are bragging that they have not magically improved to compare to McLean, Langley, Madison, etc? Moron.

The more relevant point is that IB has been around in FCPS since the mid-90s, and the six top high schools (TJ, Langley, McLean, Madison, Oakton and Woodson) have no interest in it. FCPS tried to convert Woodson to IB at one point and they said 'hell no."

[Anonymous]

"You have to look at how AP or IB is delivered in the individual school. A great deal of IB is based on pre-packaged content from the IBO that requires little individualized mentoring."

In IB the kids have to write, write, write. This can't be "pre-packaged". IB is completely focused on "individualized mentoring" and feedback on writing. This is why it's so successful at getting students to think. Or maybe you meant to write "AP"...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I have a DS at Mt Vernon and he is an IB diploma candidate (he's a senior.) I have read through all the above threads and agree with a lot of what has been written. I think its a fabulous program and I'm glad my DS has decided to pursue the diploma. However, I would support getting rid of it at Mt Vernon. I don't see my younger children pursuing the diploma and wish we had AP as an option. It might help with some of the flight from the school. Keep the IB program at Marshall and maybe Lee (convenient location for the souther/eastern end of the county) and/or South Lakes.

I think Mt Vernon typically has about 20 students per year going for the diploma. The ones who are diploma candidates do very well in college admissions. Last year's graduates are at Northwestern, Harvard (two students are at Harvard), UVA, William & Mary & West Point. One of the students who is at Harvard was also admitted to Notre Dame, Yale, Princeton, Brown, UVA, William & Mary and a couple of other schools. If a student is not pursuing the diploma, I don't know if they are considered "second class citizens" at Mt. Vernon.

The administration at Mt. Vernon tells us college counselors will put the IB candidates into one pile of applications and everyone else in a second pile (giving the IB candidate better odds for admission.) The IB Organization has published a document that lists acceptance rates for everyone and acceptance rates for IB candidates. Some samples:

School - IB Rate - Total Population Rate
Brown 18% 9%
Cornell 31% 18%
Duke 28% 16%
UVA 64% 32%
UNC 63% 32%

The chart is on Page 19.
http://www.ibo.org/contentassets/12ca22e438df4a65b4c92e42b70b10ea/globaldpdestinationsurveyus.pdf

We'll see how my DS fares as we go through the college admission process this year.

So IB diploma candidates who responded to a voluntary survey have higher admissions rates than average? I'd sure hope so. Otherwise, it seems like it would be an exercise in self-flagellation to respond.

Of course, you'd also surely find the same thing if you asked AP students taking more than a half-dozen AP courses to respond to a voluntary survey as well.