The Social Class Ladders—Labor, Gentry, and Elite

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Can we get back on topic please?

What do people on here aspire to? I think we're G2/E3 and maybe aspire to E2, but I don't think our lifestyle would change very much if that happened, except we wouldn't work much.

I'm a G2 and happy to stay there. My kids will be lucky to stay as G3s.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Can we get back on topic please?

What do people on here aspire to? I think we're G2/E3 and maybe aspire to E2, but I don't think our lifestyle would change very much if that happened, except we wouldn't work much.

My husband is a E3/4 who aspires to be solidly E4. I'm happy as a G2.

[Anonymous]

I earn twice that of an L1 but I didn't go to college and the business I own is rough and dirty.
My children go to private school, since they are young I can't predict where they'll wind up; I talk to them about how important it is to know how to do something better than anyone else no matter what it is, the love for my trade has made me a success and if somehow I lost my business and all of my money I could very easily go right back to working in the field and could support myself and my family. Of course heading back to L3 would mean no vacation house, boat or private school but we could live and be pretty happy eventually.

I came from G3 but my friends are all L1 and 2. The women my wife has made friends with through the kids school have been people with pretty similar backgrounds, there must be some kind of class radar.

Great post OP, this has been fun to think about.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote: I earn twice that of an L1 but I didn't go to college and the business I own is rough and dirty.
My children go to private school, since they are young I can't predict where they'll wind up; I talk to them about how important it is to know how to do something better than anyone else no matter what it is, the love for my trade has made me a success and if somehow I lost my business and all of my money I could very easily go right back to working in the field and could support myself and my family. Of course heading back to L3 would mean no vacation house, boat or private school but we could live and be pretty happy eventually.

I came from G3 but my friends are all L1 and 2. The women my wife has made friends with through the kids school have been people with pretty similar backgrounds, there must be some kind of class radar.

Great post OP, this has been fun to think about.

For dome reason, Sopranos come to mind. Where do serious criminals fall?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote: I earn twice that of an L1 but I didn't go to college and the business I own is rough and dirty.
My children go to private school, since they are young I can't predict where they'll wind up; I talk to them about how important it is to know how to do something better than anyone else no matter what it is, the love for my trade has made me a success and if somehow I lost my business and all of my money I could very easily go right back to working in the field and could support myself and my family. Of course heading back to L3 would mean no vacation house, boat or private school but we could live and be pretty happy eventually.

I came from G3 but my friends are all L1 and 2. The women my wife has made friends with through the kids school have been people with pretty similar backgrounds, there must be some kind of class radar.

Great post OP, this has been fun to think about.

For dome reason, Sopranos come to mind. Where do serious criminals fall?

PP here; I know some of them and they are nothing more than dressed up trash cans. Because they are lacking in any sort of morality it blasts straight through out of their children. These are kids that you do not want at your pool party because they never know when to stop, kids that you do not want your kids hang out with because they are into things at 11 that you didn't even think about doing at 20. I don't think criminals get a stable spot on any ladder, there are always exceptions but for the most part they lose their grip no matter where they are.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you're a woman who "married down" how did it affect the culture your children grew up with? Are they also Ls/Gs? What is your culture at home?

I can answer this as the child. My mother tried hard to raise us the way she'd been raised -- value education, be financially literate, contribute to your community, participate in some sort of activity that you enjoy. She was supportive, helped us with homework, volunteered at school and our activities, and saved for our college educations. What helped the most was that I spent a lot of time with her parents (spoiled only grandchild for quite some time), and they taught me formal table manners, took me places with their friends, introduced me to influential people, started my college fund, and were all around wonderful to me. My father's family always had some sort of daytime talk-show drama going on, few are college-educated, and they were always screaming at each other about something or backstabbing each other to curry favor with their parents. I have no relationship with any of them as an adult, and I can't say I think I'm missing out.

To some extent, I also married down, but my husband was a complete fish out of water with his L upbringing and fled to G as fast as he could. His parents also felt education was very valuable, which is not typically of where he was raised, so going to college was expected/encouraged/financed. We come from different financial philosophies, but he's laid back enough to let me handle them and will acknowledge that he simply is not aware of a lot of the financial ins and outs that many of us take for granted. He's learned a lot and manages the "his" portion of our finances just fine. We don't fight about money, he enjoys culture, and he knows he got a shitty education as a kid and is hellbent on making sure that our kids get the best education we can provide for them. Both of us have graduate degrees. Where we differ is on ambition (he has a job for $, I have a career), ability to deal with anything bureaucracy-related (forms, waiting on hold, jumping through hoops for insurance issues), and tolerance of bullshit social games (no interest in schmoozing with other parents to get our kids on the playdate circuit). In terms of the culture in our home, we're in line with our G2/G3 counterparts, for the most part. We have kids over, we do "cultural" stuff as a family (plays, museums, some travel, etc.), we participate in community events, we stock their 529s, our kids are in activities (scouts, sports, etc.) and we lead some of those, etc.

I don't think these are "gentry" values. People of all classes value education, financial literacy, community, and engagement with hobbies.

I grew up the same way and I am a first generation college grad (plus grad degree).

Okay, that's not been my experience. Most of the people I know in the L class have jobs that don't align with school schedules or are working multiple jobs to make ends meet, so they volunteer at school less. My mother was at nearly every extracurricular match that I was in, and my friends with L parents were happy if they came to even one or two games, some only came to senior night their last year of high school. My husband grew up L and couldn't understand why I thought we should go to every game because neither his parents nor any o fhis peers had parents who were that present. Most Ls also don't have the same degree of financial sophistication that Gs and Es do -- my husband had no idea what a retirement account was growing up, and, even growing up high-L/low G, my parents never spoke to me about investments or anything beyond budgeting and paying your bills. When you don't have extra cash, you don't invest. The best graduation present I got from college was one of my mom's relatives (a mid-G) starting a Roth for me because I didn't know I needed one.

And the "value education" thing is definitely class-based. If you think the majority of Ls value education, you need to get out in the world some more. There is a definite derision for higher education amongst the rural L community where my husband was raised. My in-laws were the outliers in having been to college, and that they expected him to go was well out of the norms for the area. Maybe 20% of his graduating class from high school went on to any sort of college. I have definitely heard the sentiment, more than one time, that college is just a trap to get you to owe a lot of money to the government so that they can keep you down.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's interesting to me all the posters who are saying class mobility does not exist. My H and I both grew up LMC. We're first generation college graduates. Now I have a PhD and he is in finance. Senior manager at his firm, very likely to advance. He makes >750k. I adjunct right now for the flexibility with our kids (I'm basically a SAHM for all intents and purposes - I only teach one or two courses a year to keep my toe in. It's basically a hobby job).

Anyway, my point is, we've still been invited to join the fancy country club, our kids go to an expensive private school, we vacation several times a year in the same spots as all the other parents (Caribbean, skiing, Europe, beach trip every year). I've never once felt slighted or looked down upon. Maybe our background is not obvious to others? We're mid thirties and went to good schools on scholarship/loans which we've since long paid off.

I don't get the people who are saying this ^ is not an example of class mobility.

It is, but if you think that your experience is not an anomaly, you're fooling yourself. Making $750K+ is pretty unusual in the population overall, as is having the opportunity to go to a school that the elite consider "good" from an L background. Most L and even low-G kids are raised on the idea that getting into the flagship state school is an achievement. It wasn't until I got to start hanging out with the Es in DC that I learned that I'd have been better off going to some SLAC that no one I went to high school had ever heard of than a large, public university that's well-regarded pretty much everywhere else but DC.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's interesting to me all the posters who are saying class mobility does not exist. My H and I both grew up LMC. We're first generation college graduates. Now I have a PhD and he is in finance. Senior manager at his firm, very likely to advance. He makes >750k. I adjunct right now for the flexibility with our kids (I'm basically a SAHM for all intents and purposes - I only teach one or two courses a year to keep my toe in. It's basically a hobby job).

Anyway, my point is, we've still been invited to join the fancy country club, our kids go to an expensive private school, we vacation several times a year in the same spots as all the other parents (Caribbean, skiing, Europe, beach trip every year). I've never once felt slighted or looked down upon. Maybe our background is not obvious to others? We're mid thirties and went to good schools on scholarship/loans which we've since long paid off.

I don't get the people who are saying this ^ is not an example of class mobility.

It is, but if you think that your experience is not an anomaly, you're fooling yourself. Making $750K+ is pretty unusual in the population overall, as is having the opportunity to go to a school that the elite consider "good" from an L background. Most L and even low-G kids are raised on the idea that getting into the flagship state school is an achievement. It wasn't until I got to start hanging out with the Es in DC that I learned that I'd have been better off going to some SLAC that no one I went to high school had ever heard of than a large, public university that's well-regarded pretty much everywhere else but DC.

To be fair, Gs and low Es in the DC area consider getting into UVA/W&M as the pinnacle of their HS child's achievement.

[Anonymous]

L2/G3 upbringing. Very much a fish out of water at my elite college. Now solidly G2, with stints in E4/E3 when I worked in private practice. Very acutely felt the vulnerability inherent in the E3 "servant" role (however high paid) and hated it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's interesting to me all the posters who are saying class mobility does not exist. My H and I both grew up LMC. We're first generation college graduates. Now I have a PhD and he is in finance. Senior manager at his firm, very likely to advance. He makes >750k. I adjunct right now for the flexibility with our kids (I'm basically a SAHM for all intents and purposes - I only teach one or two courses a year to keep my toe in. It's basically a hobby job).

Anyway, my point is, we've still been invited to join the fancy country club, our kids go to an expensive private school, we vacation several times a year in the same spots as all the other parents (Caribbean, skiing, Europe, beach trip every year). I've never once felt slighted or looked down upon. Maybe our background is not obvious to others? We're mid thirties and went to good schools on scholarship/loans which we've since long paid off.

I don't get the people who are saying this ^ is not an example of class mobility.

It is, but if you think that your experience is not an anomaly, you're fooling yourself. Making $750K+ is pretty unusual in the population overall, as is having the opportunity to go to a school that the elite consider "good" from an L background. Most L and even low-G kids are raised on the idea that getting into the flagship state school is an achievement. It wasn't until I got to start hanging out with the Es in DC that I learned that I'd have been better off going to some SLAC that no one I went to high school had ever heard of than a large, public university that's well-regarded pretty much everywhere else but DC.

Hmm. We'll I hear you on the state school thing. My parents brought me up to only consider going to our flagship state school - it wasn't until I was a sophomore in high school that I even realized anything else was possible. I met my H at the U of Chicago, which we both only learned about through fliers they sent in the mail (we both scored over 1500 on the old SATs). So not "ivy" but still considered pretty good. We got through school on a combo of scholarships/loans/work study.

To be honest, I don't think we are that unique. Most of our friends are people who grew up with similar backgrounds (middle classs at best). Some even went to state schools or no name privates and now regularly make over seven figures - that's finance for you though. It's really not that unusual. Maybe at a place like Goldman Sachs or similar but there are money managers all over the country that don't care about brands and where you can do pretty well financially, at least compared to the general population (500k + easily).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's interesting to me all the posters who are saying class mobility does not exist. My H and I both grew up LMC. We're first generation college graduates. Now I have a PhD and he is in finance. Senior manager at his firm, very likely to advance. He makes >750k. I adjunct right now for the flexibility with our kids (I'm basically a SAHM for all intents and purposes - I only teach one or two courses a year to keep my toe in. It's basically a hobby job).

Anyway, my point is, we've still been invited to join the fancy country club, our kids go to an expensive private school, we vacation several times a year in the same spots as all the other parents (Caribbean, skiing, Europe, beach trip every year). I've never once felt slighted or looked down upon. Maybe our background is not obvious to others? We're mid thirties and went to good schools on scholarship/loans which we've since long paid off.

I don't get the people who are saying this ^ is not an example of class mobility.

It is, but if you think that your experience is not an anomaly, you're fooling yourself. Making $750K+ is pretty unusual in the population overall, as is having the opportunity to go to a school that the elite consider "good" from an L background. Most L and even low-G kids are raised on the idea that getting into the flagship state school is an achievement. It wasn't until I got to start hanging out with the Es in DC that I learned that I'd have been better off going to some SLAC that no one I went to high school had ever heard of than a large, public university that's well-regarded pretty much everywhere else but DC.

Hmm. We'll I hear you on the state school thing. My parents brought me up to only consider going to our flagship state school - it wasn't until I was a sophomore in high school that I even realized anything else was possible. I met my H at the U of Chicago, which we both only learned about through fliers they sent in the mail (we both scored over 1500 on the old SATs). So not "ivy" but still considered pretty good. We got through school on a combo of scholarships/loans/work study.

To be honest, I don't think we are that unique. Most of our friends are people who grew up with similar backgrounds (middle classs at best). Some even went to state schools or no name privates and now regularly make over seven figures - that's finance for you though. It's really not that unusual. Maybe at a place like Goldman Sachs or similar but there are money managers all over the country that don't care about brands and where you can do pretty well financially, at least compared to the general population (500k + easily).

People who grew up G or E can sniff your common roots out dear, it's not difficult. You're obviously new money and will never truly fit in with gentry types. I bet you bought a tear down and built a McMansion on a tiny plot in Arlington or Bethesda. You seem the type.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you're a woman who "married down" how did it affect the culture your children grew up with? Are they also Ls/Gs? What is your culture at home?

I can answer this as the child. My mother tried hard to raise us the way she'd been raised -- value education, be financially literate, contribute to your community, participate in some sort of activity that you enjoy. She was supportive, helped us with homework, volunteered at school and our activities, and saved for our college educations. What helped the most was that I spent a lot of time with her parents (spoiled only grandchild for quite some time), and they taught me formal table manners, took me places with their friends, introduced me to influential people, started my college fund, and were all around wonderful to me. My father's family always had some sort of daytime talk-show drama going on, few are college-educated, and they were always screaming at each other about something or backstabbing each other to curry favor with their parents. I have no relationship with any of them as an adult, and I can't say I think I'm missing out.

To some extent, I also married down, but my husband was a complete fish out of water with his L upbringing and fled to G as fast as he could. His parents also felt education was very valuable, which is not typically of where he was raised, so going to college was expected/encouraged/financed. We come from different financial philosophies, but he's laid back enough to let me handle them and will acknowledge that he simply is not aware of a lot of the financial ins and outs that many of us take for granted. He's learned a lot and manages the "his" portion of our finances just fine. We don't fight about money, he enjoys culture, and he knows he got a shitty education as a kid and is hellbent on making sure that our kids get the best education we can provide for them. Both of us have graduate degrees. Where we differ is on ambition (he has a job for $, I have a career), ability to deal with anything bureaucracy-related (forms, waiting on hold, jumping through hoops for insurance issues), and tolerance of bullshit social games (no interest in schmoozing with other parents to get our kids on the playdate circuit). In terms of the culture in our home, we're in line with our G2/G3 counterparts, for the most part. We have kids over, we do "cultural" stuff as a family (plays, museums, some travel, etc.), we participate in community events, we stock their 529s, our kids are in activities (scouts, sports, etc.) and we lead some of those, etc.

I don't think these are "gentry" values. People of all classes value education, financial literacy, community, and engagement with hobbies.

I grew up the same way and I am a first generation college grad (plus grad degree).

Okay, that's not been my experience. Most of the people I know in the L class have jobs that don't align with school schedules or are working multiple jobs to make ends meet, so they volunteer at school less. My mother was at nearly every extracurricular match that I was in, and my friends with L parents were happy if they came to even one or two games, some only came to senior night their last year of high school. My husband grew up L and couldn't understand why I thought we should go to every game because neither his parents nor any o fhis peers had parents who were that present. Most Ls also don't have the same degree of financial sophistication that Gs and Es do -- my husband had no idea what a retirement account was growing up, and, even growing up high-L/low G, my parents never spoke to me about investments or anything beyond budgeting and paying your bills. When you don't have extra cash, you don't invest. The best graduation present I got from college was one of my mom's relatives (a mid-G) starting a Roth for me because I didn't know I needed one.

And the "value education" thing is definitely class-based. If you think the majority of Ls value education, you need to get out in the world some more. There is a definite derision for higher education amongst the rural L community where my husband was raised. My in-laws were the outliers in having been to college, and that they expected him to go was well out of the norms for the area. Maybe 20% of his graduating class from high school went on to any sort of college. I have definitely heard the sentiment, more than one time, that college is just a trap to get you to owe a lot of money to the government so that they can keep you down.

Yep to the education comments.
Dh is a doctor and it earns him less respect from his L brother. Dh is far from smug too. Family members ask him stuff. And BIL can't stand it. Another bil will actively question very basic scientific medical truths.

L BIL won't open a bank account either.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:E3 married to E3. I would jump off a bridge if I was an L. Does anyone actually choose to be an L? It seems like bad luck at birth.

Well, after the apocalypse the L's will probably rebuild the world. E's probably won't survive. G's will help shape society.

I think Gs will survive the least. (G4s the most, g2s the least)
Es may have leadership, resources, know-how to stay afloat. Along with G1.

In agreement that Ls will do just fine. L1s might benefit the most.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's interesting to me all the posters who are saying class mobility does not exist. My H and I both grew up LMC. We're first generation college graduates. Now I have a PhD and he is in finance. Senior manager at his firm, very likely to advance. He makes >750k. I adjunct right now for the flexibility with our kids (I'm basically a SAHM for all intents and purposes - I only teach one or two courses a year to keep my toe in. It's basically a hobby job).

Anyway, my point is, we've still been invited to join the fancy country club, our kids go to an expensive private school, we vacation several times a year in the same spots as all the other parents (Caribbean, skiing, Europe, beach trip every year). I've never once felt slighted or looked down upon. Maybe our background is not obvious to others? We're mid thirties and went to good schools on scholarship/loans which we've since long paid off.

I don't get the people who are saying this ^ is not an example of class mobility.

It is, but if you think that your experience is not an anomaly, you're fooling yourself. Making $750K+ is pretty unusual in the population overall, as is having the opportunity to go to a school that the elite consider "good" from an L background. Most L and even low-G kids are raised on the idea that getting into the flagship state school is an achievement. It wasn't until I got to start hanging out with the Es in DC that I learned that I'd have been better off going to some SLAC that no one I went to high school had ever heard of than a large, public university that's well-regarded pretty much everywhere else but DC.

Hmm. We'll I hear you on the state school thing. My parents brought me up to only consider going to our flagship state school - it wasn't until I was a sophomore in high school that I even realized anything else was possible. I met my H at the U of Chicago, which we both only learned about through fliers they sent in the mail (we both scored over 1500 on the old SATs). So not "ivy" but still considered pretty good. We got through school on a combo of scholarships/loans/work study.

To be honest, I don't think we are that unique. Most of our friends are people who grew up with similar backgrounds (middle classs at best). Some even went to state schools or no name privates and now regularly make over seven figures - that's finance for you though. It's really not that unusual. Maybe at a place like Goldman Sachs or similar but there are money managers all over the country that don't care about brands and where you can do pretty well financially, at least compared to the general population (500k + easily).

People who grew up G or E can sniff your common roots out dear, it's not difficult. You're obviously new money and will never truly fit in with gentry types. I bet you bought a tear down and built a McMansion on a tiny plot in Arlington or Bethesda. You seem the type.

Like I care. Lady, I am too busy enjoying my life and our accomplishments to care whether you think I should have bought a used Volvo instead of a brand new Cayenne. We didn't buy a tear down either, not that it matters. I'd own my choice if we did. Unlike you, I have a very nice life which gives me enough happiness that I don't have to troll strangers on the Internet to vent my bitterness on others

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's interesting to me all the posters who are saying class mobility does not exist. My H and I both grew up LMC. We're first generation college graduates. Now I have a PhD and he is in finance. Senior manager at his firm, very likely to advance. He makes >750k. I adjunct right now for the flexibility with our kids (I'm basically a SAHM for all intents and purposes - I only teach one or two courses a year to keep my toe in. It's basically a hobby job).

Anyway, my point is, we've still been invited to join the fancy country club, our kids go to an expensive private school, we vacation several times a year in the same spots as all the other parents (Caribbean, skiing, Europe, beach trip every year). I've never once felt slighted or looked down upon. Maybe our background is not obvious to others? We're mid thirties and went to good schools on scholarship/loans which we've since long paid off.

I don't get the people who are saying this ^ is not an example of class mobility.

It is, but if you think that your experience is not an anomaly, you're fooling yourself. Making $750K+ is pretty unusual in the population overall, as is having the opportunity to go to a school that the elite consider "good" from an L background. Most L and even low-G kids are raised on the idea that getting into the flagship state school is an achievement. It wasn't until I got to start hanging out with the Es in DC that I learned that I'd have been better off going to some SLAC that no one I went to high school had ever heard of than a large, public university that's well-regarded pretty much everywhere else but DC.

To be fair, Gs and low Es in the DC area consider getting into UVA/W&M as the pinnacle of their HS child's achievement.

I went to Princeton, and am thrilled that my kids both got into UVA and W&M.