S/O Let's just talk about Islamic headscarves/hijabs/abayas here, shall we?

[Anonymous]

I want to know why there's separation btw the sexes in a mosque.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I want to know why there's separation btw the sexes in a mosque.

You mean like in an Orthodox synagogue?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I want to know why there's separation btw the sexes in a mosque.

You mean like in an Orthodox synagogue?

yes - exactly

funny how similar Islam and Judaism are . . .

halal, kosher
head coverings (tzniut for Jews, burqa/niqab/hijab) - although if someone put a gun to my temple, I'd chose the wig over the burqa
separation of the sexes
both deny the resurrection of Jesus

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I want to know why there's separation btw the sexes in a mosque.

You mean like in an Orthodox synagogue?

yes - exactly

funny how similar Islam and Judaism are . . .

halal, kosher
head coverings (tzniut for Jews, burqa/niqab/hijab) - although if someone put a gun to my temple, I'd chose the wig over the burqa
separation of the sexes
both deny the resurrection of Jesus

Extremely similar.

[Anonymous]

I always crack up inside when I see a woman with headscarf following a man in t-shirt/jeans/sneakers. She keeps it traditional while he goes with western clothes. Might as well keep the women on a dog leash.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I know women who didn't cover in their home nation (Turkey), but cover here because they have the freedom to do so here and Turkey doesn't allow the hijab in schools and other public institutions.

Wish this were still true. Until the current regime, Turkey enjoyed a healthy separation of church and state. The current leadership has gone out of its way to ensure that Turkey's secularism will be going down the tubes like those of its neighboring Muslim countries. Go visit the country now while you still can. It is, by far, the most beautiful country I've ever been to and, until recently, I was always hopeful about its future.

-signed, a Muslim Turkish woman who does NOT cover her head and who has NO family members - in America or in Turkey who cover their head or think that headscarves should be allowed in public institutions

[Anonymous]

Muslima wrote:Well, a lot of women want to go to college. The fact that they have to take their hijab off to go to college or keep the hijab on and not get educated, and the fact that many women in the public sector lost their jobs because they refused to take their hijabs off is an infringement on women’s right to choose to dress the way they wish and also worship the way they choose too.

I'm Muslim and completely disagree.

Like the PP immediately above me, I think a separation between church and state is healthy for a governmental institution. I don't think any public display of religion should be permitted in a public institution. Period. That would include wearing a yarmulke or wearing a cross or Star of David or scripture of any kind on jewelry over your clothing. There's a time and a place for everything and public schools and public offices is not the appropriate venue for showcasing individual religious beliefs by wearing religious garb of any kind. Think of it this way... The fact that a boss wears a particular religious symbol of some kind may make his / her subordinates feel pressure to share the boss's religious views or at least pretend to not disagree with the boss's religious leanings. These are personal decisions and convinctions which have no place in the private workforce, let alone in governmental organizations which are overseeing the education and management of the country's citizens (some of which are impressionable, young students).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:Well, a lot of women want to go to college. The fact that they have to take their hijab off to go to college or keep the hijab on and not get educated, and the fact that many women in the public sector lost their jobs because they refused to take their hijabs off is an infringement on women’s right to choose to dress the way they wish and also worship the way they choose too.

I'm Muslim and completely disagree.

Like the PP immediately above me, I think a separation between church and state is healthy for a governmental institution. I don't think any public display of religion should be permitted in a public institution. Period. That would include wearing a yarmulke or wearing a cross or Star of David or scripture of any kind on jewelry over your clothing. There's a time and a place for everything and public schools and public offices is not the appropriate venue for showcasing individual religious beliefs by wearing religious garb of any kind. Think of it this way... The fact that a boss wears a particular religious symbol of some kind may make his / her subordinates feel pressure to share the boss's religious views or at least pretend to not disagree with the boss's religious leanings. These are personal decisions and convinctions which have no place in the private workforce, let alone in governmental organizations which are overseeing the education and management of the country's citizens (some of which are impressionable, young students).

Different poster here. I find this fascinating -- because not only is it unconstitutional here to forbid the free exercise of religion, it's just such a part of American culture.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:Well, a lot of women want to go to college. The fact that they have to take their hijab off to go to college or keep the hijab on and not get educated, and the fact that many women in the public sector lost their jobs because they refused to take their hijabs off is an infringement on women’s right to choose to dress the way they wish and also worship the way they choose too.

I'm Muslim and completely disagree.

Like the PP immediately above me, I think a separation between church and state is healthy for a governmental institution. I don't think any public display of religion should be permitted in a public institution. Period. That would include wearing a yarmulke or wearing a cross or Star of David or scripture of any kind on jewelry over your clothing. There's a time and a place for everything and public schools and public offices is not the appropriate venue for showcasing individual religious beliefs by wearing religious garb of any kind. Think of it this way... The fact that a boss wears a particular religious symbol of some kind may make his / her subordinates feel pressure to share the boss's religious views or at least pretend to not disagree with the boss's religious leanings. These are personal decisions and convinctions which have no place in the private workforce, let alone in governmental organizations which are overseeing the education and management of the country's citizens (some of which are impressionable, young students).

interesting perspective

I grew up around family members (males and females) who wore crosses - 18K/24K gold jewelry which was actually quite lovely. I have quite a few from childhood given to me on different occasions. I don't wear them now, as I'm not particularly religious. The jewelry, while religious, is also cultural if that makes sense.

However, I do agree with your post to some extent, but I doubt that idea would fly in the States. How do you define public, for example? in this case, just schools and government offices? And you mention the private workforce, too. What about organizations that are religiously-based?

interesting take, PP

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:Well, a lot of women want to go to college. The fact that they have to take their hijab off to go to college or keep the hijab on and not get educated, and the fact that many women in the public sector lost their jobs because they refused to take their hijabs off is an infringement on women’s right to choose to dress the way they wish and also worship the way they choose too.

I'm Muslim and completely disagree.

Like the PP immediately above me, I think a separation between church and state is healthy for a governmental institution. I don't think any public display of religion should be permitted in a public institution. Period. That would include wearing a yarmulke or wearing a cross or Star of David or scripture of any kind on jewelry over your clothing. There's a time and a place for everything and public schools and public offices is not the appropriate venue for showcasing individual religious beliefs by wearing religious garb of any kind. Think of it this way... The fact that a boss wears a particular religious symbol of some kind may make his / her subordinates feel pressure to share the boss's religious views or at least pretend to not disagree with the boss's religious leanings. These are personal decisions and convinctions which have no place in the private workforce, let alone in governmental organizations which are overseeing the education and management of the country's citizens (some of which are impressionable, young students).

Different poster here. I find this fascinating -- because not only is it unconstitutional here to forbid the free exercise of religion, it's just such a part of American culture.

Yes, NP, different countries do have different ways of handling freedom of religion and separation of church and state. Turkish culture is a very old one, but the modern republic of Turkey which we enjoy today is still young - established in 1923. Islam is a beautiful religion but, unfortunately the religion is vulnerable to several factors which make it easy for extremism to persevere. The religion does not have a controlling centralized religious leadership so individualized (and often ignorant or manipulative) interpretation of the religion without the checks and balances like those in Christianity are allowed to run amuck. Combine this with the fact that most Muslim countries are poorer (with the exception of Saudia Arabia and the UAE) with less opportunities for the locals and a disproportionate array of opportunities for powerful Western foreigners looking to benefit from the country's political instability and rich natural resources, and it's not so hard to see why Islam has a tendency to be taken to extremes. As such, comparing the way in which separation of church and state is handled in a country whose vast majority is Muslim (and which shares borders with extremist Muslim countries and who has an overwhelming influx of immigrants from extremist Muslim countries) to the way in which America handles separation of church and state is really comparing apples to oranges.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:Well, a lot of women want to go to college. The fact that they have to take their hijab off to go to college or keep the hijab on and not get educated, and the fact that many women in the public sector lost their jobs because they refused to take their hijabs off is an infringement on women’s right to choose to dress the way they wish and also worship the way they choose too.

I'm Muslim and completely disagree.

Like the PP immediately above me, I think a separation between church and state is healthy for a governmental institution. I don't think any public display of religion should be permitted in a public institution. Period. That would include wearing a yarmulke or wearing a cross or Star of David or scripture of any kind on jewelry over your clothing. There's a time and a place for everything and public schools and public offices is not the appropriate venue for showcasing individual religious beliefs by wearing religious garb of any kind. Think of it this way... The fact that a boss wears a particular religious symbol of some kind may make his / her subordinates feel pressure to share the boss's religious views or at least pretend to not disagree with the boss's religious leanings. These are personal decisions and convinctions which have no place in the private workforce, let alone in governmental organizations which are overseeing the education and management of the country's citizens (some of which are impressionable, young students).

interesting perspective

I grew up around family members (males and females) who wore crosses - 18K/24K gold jewelry which was actually quite lovely. I have quite a few from childhood given to me on different occasions. I don't wear them now, as I'm not particularly religious. The jewelry, while religious, is also cultural if that makes sense.

However, I do agree with your post to some extent, but I doubt that idea would fly in the States. How do you define public, for example? in this case, just schools and government offices? And you mention the private workforce, too. What about organizations that are religiously-based?

interesting take, PP

I'm the PP to which you are referring. I can only speak for myself and my family members. I agree that such a hard line of separation between church and state would not fly in the US and, indeed, I don't think such a hard line is necessary here. I just don't think we can compare a country which is arguably the last democratic modern Muslim country outlawing headscarves and other religious garb in public schools and governmental institutions to what we do here in America. It is a far more delicate situation in Turkey and in other modern Muslim countries than it is here in the States and to compare the US to any of these countries is an oversimplification of the issue.

[Anonymous]

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:
Of course you use your brain to reason, but if you do believe in God & follow a religion, you have a book that should be your guide. If you believe you are enough to guide yourself through life, good for you, I leave all of my affairs to God and ask Him to guide me on a daily basis. It is a choice ~

There is a difference between a guide and an instruction manual. God may guide my path, that doesn't mean that I need specific instructions on my cleanliness, usury laws, etc. There are so many obvious reasons for this, one of them being that the technology and economics and all kinds of different things were completely different. What worked yesterday may not work today or tomorrow. The most important aspects of life- how we treat one another and ourselves, are the same, but no, I don't need a guide on every trivial issue in life. I have something better- a relationship. God is so much bigger and better than just a book and set of laws. I pray one day that you understand this.

Well I also believe that God is bigger than the Quran, the Quran is His miracle that He shared with mankind, but He is not restricted or contained to this one book at all. He is infinite! But as a Muslim, the Quran is my guide, it has a complete set of rules for every aspect of my life and it is timeless. it details all the authentic human physical and spiritual needs for all times. The God I believe in has complete and absolute knowledge of the world so of course His Book will transcend over time. Personally, I think this world is in the depths of darkness. We live in an age of unprecedented slaughter and oppression. We live in an age where the chasm between rich and poor (both people and countries) is staggeringly vast. We live in an age where this gap is exploited. Ours is an age of confusion, and moral relativism which is descending into outright moral rejectionism. In the West, our societies are crumbling from within, but our dangerous decay is masked by our affluence, the magnificent height of our buildings, the dizzying numbers on our economic balance sheet.We are becoming less human. And, like every other civilisational superpower that has lived before us, we are claiming that we are the greatest civilisation known to history, and that we are riding on an unsinkable ship.
I do not limit the above to the Western world. Most of what I've written applies globally.

Perhaps Christendom, or at least that part of it which is now called 'the West', has benefitted from putting its scripture to one side and becoming less religious. Perhaps the Bible does not have a significant role to play in Western civilisation. Perhaps it does.

Whatever the case, the Muslim world is completely different. The dark ages in which the Muslim world now finds itself are not a result of increased religiosity, or religious adherence, but rather of decreased adherence and religiosity. That social dynamic has bred religious ignorance so that anything can now be passed off as religion if you have a long-enough beard.The Muslim world right now, is going through some kind of renaissance. There are many competing ideologies, and in time one will emerge to recapture the enlightenment of the past. The Qur'an certainly has not lost its influence on human development. Rather it now has the capacity to be more positively influential than ever.The Qur'an does not need to be 'retooled into a more progressive mindset'. It is a progressive mindset. The early Muslims were progressive people. Real Muslim scholars continue to be.The Qur'an therefore, is not only relevant to the modern world, but will always be. It enunciates prinicples of guidance for humanity. Humanity does not change, though the manifestation of the human condition does. Essentially, the problems are always the same, even if the symptoms become more complex.

Ma salaama (with peace)

Not sure how you're defining "progressive" but I think your definition would differ from that of most here, with respect to the treatment of women, non-Muslims, and the believer's obligation to the poor not having to go much beyond a 10% tax. The "progressive" Muslims of the middle ages were often so because they were a minority or a slim minority in many cities across North Africa and the Middle East, so they had to tolerate those they were ruling over. (As an side, I've noticed how Mulsims are always boasting about converts to their religion or predicting the demise of other religions like Christianisty, when neither was called for in this particular response, annd Muslima is no different. It's a sign of insecurity, I think.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I always crack up inside when I see a woman with headscarf following a man in t-shirt/jeans/sneakers. She keeps it traditional while he goes with western clothes. Might as well keep the women on a dog leash.

Saw them in Giant today.

The man is dressed in jeans, t-shirt and sneakers.

The woman are covered in cloth and are grouped behind the man.

Wow, want domination they have over their women. I would not want my daughter to marry an arab or muslim.