The insanity of 1%er East Coast parents and college

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I had a client with a net worth of $20MM+. Client was crazy worried about his DC's university and career prospects. I asked why worry (given the net worth). Client responded that the $20MM can vanish in a heartbeat.

However, realistically, a Harvard degree's worth is more likely to vanish in heartbeat (because of drugs, mental breakdown, lack of ambition).

OP here. It actually makes sense to me that a wealthy person would want their kid to study hard and have a good career. Work is essential to mental health and yes, $20MM can be wasted. But that kid could be happy with a teaching degree from a state school as much as an MBA and I banking career.

Give your kids enough so they can do anything, but not so much that they'll do nothing. -paraphrasing Warren Buffett

This includes the opportunities and resources you give them while they are growing.

There is such a thing as having too much opportunity. It burns the striver out of your children because they have been served a conveyor belt of never ending opportunity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would secretly be upset if my child went to a state school. I would not openly freak out like OP is saying.

Your kid is non secretly upset with your parenting.

Actually my child has already said he does not want to go to UVA. He absolutely would also be upset if he did not get into a T10 school. I know how competitive it is so I’m trying to make him feel like he should be proud and happy to go to UVA.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would secretly be upset if my child went to a state school. I would not openly freak out like OP is saying.

Your kid is non secretly upset with your parenting.

Actually my child has already said he does not want to go to UVA. He absolutely would also be upset if he did not get into a T10 school. I know how competitive it is so I’m trying to make him feel like he should be proud and happy to go to UVA.

you somehow raised a really judgmental and status obsessed kid. Unfortunate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you think this is limited to the 1% you have blinkers on.

True but the point is it’s most insane for the 1%ers.

NO. It is easier for 1%. The degree to which it is "most insane" is entirely a dynamic they magic out of their own neuroses and has absolutely ZERO to do with actual limitations on their options.

The 1%ers who choose to go the route of massive donations or spending enormous sums on private school/test prep/college advising/etc. in order to guarantee their kids entry into one of a very narrow range of schools are just being stupid. That's it. It's a stupid game akin to the billionaires who compete over who has the biggest yacht. Only worse because in this scenario their children are the yachts and their educations are being used in a d*ck-measuring contest. Gross. But not actually that hard to opt out of. Just don't.

We are in the top 1% or .5%. I grew up as a poor immigrant kid. I was equally focused, if not more, than my current high school student. Education was my ticket out of poverty. There was no back up plan. My rich kid can go to any school and will probably do fine.

Ambition and striving are popular to put down on DCUM. I wonder if this is what non ambitious say. I hear this in real life from adults who come from family money, but are unimpressive themselves or have unimpressive children. They call the achieving people strivers and look down on them.

I am proud of my achievements. I am proud of my children’s achievements.

No one has an issue with achievement. They have issues with the borderline mental breakdown-level of obsession with getting into certain institutions because those institutions are “elite” and convey “status.” And with the lack of perspective, especially amongst the parents who should know better, to understand that there are many, many successful people who didn’t go that route. Because ultimately it is just one small piece of the puzzle.

How do you know someone is having breakdown level obsession around getting into certain institutions? Honestly, it just reads like your own kids are not competitive, you gave up, some other parents and kids are still in the running and that equals mental breakdown. Nobody is breaking down about not getting into Harvard, ok. They will be upset for a few days if they expected it, then they will move on.

OP here. I posted this because I know a family literally claiming to be in crisis and falling apart over a kid who appears to be headed for a state college.

This person likely knows you well enough to show you their raw feelings.

People fall apart over vanity, sports, promotions, anything really.

I wish there were anything actually self-aware about it. I’m just subjected to endless stream-of-consciousness anxious blather.

I’m Asian American and education is embedded in our culture. Education is respected and the level of school matters. I try not to care and I am very well aware that one can be successful and happy in life without attending a prestigious university. We still want our children to get the best education they can receive.

+++1

Prestigious is not nearly the same as best education.

You are shamefully hiding your social striving behind a cheap mask of "valuing education" and fooling no one.

DP.

I am at a loss to understand how the word "striving" has become a derogatory term.

Same with the terms "try-hard" and other terms like that.
It reminds me of when Ogre screams NEEEERDS! in the movie.

The value of education (in confucian communities at least) is associated with social mobility.
What is shameful about social striving?
Are we supposed to "know out place" and pursue the same career as our fathers?

I see this attitude among a lot of Americans. The attitude that the circumstances of birth either cannot be overcome or are so difficult to overcome that it is not worth the effort.
Many Americans seem to believe IQ is an immutable trait determined at birth. Many Asians think it is plastic and can be improved through effort.
Many Americans believe that social mobility is practically dead in America. Many Asians are amazed at how much social mobility is possible in America with the application of effort.

Is this just something the upper classes want to instill in lower classes to preserve their position or people really believe that social mobility is neither possible nor desirable because that would be "striving"

OP here. Striving is great! Self-motivated high achieving kids are awesome! What I am noting here is not striving (or even Tiger parenting, which is a whole different subject). It’s parents SO fixated on the small substantive differences between schools that they loose sight of the fact that their kid is blessed with great prospects no matter where they go to college. If you send your kid to private schools (or elite publics), they have solid grades, have money for full pay tuition, kids will inherit money and/or get some help with that first down payment - they are going to be JUST FINE even if they go to State College instead of Brown.

Of course that's true.
They don't all have to go to the Harvard Institute of Stanfordology but they are striving for it and there is nothing wrong with that.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would secretly be upset if my child went to a state school. I would not openly freak out like OP is saying.

Your kid is non secretly upset with your parenting.

Actually my child has already said he does not want to go to UVA. He absolutely would also be upset if he did not get into a T10 school. I know how competitive it is so I’m trying to make him feel like he should be proud and happy to go to UVA.

you somehow raised a really judgmental and status obsessed kid. Unfortunate.

If you had a high stat motivated kid who has worked hard his entire life and shooting for the ivies, you and he would also be unhappy ending up at UVA.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would secretly be upset if my child went to a state school. I would not openly freak out like OP is saying.

Your kid is non secretly upset with your parenting.

Actually my child has already said he does not want to go to UVA. He absolutely would also be upset if he did not get into a T10 school. I know how competitive it is so I’m trying to make him feel like he should be proud and happy to go to UVA.

you somehow raised a really judgmental and status obsessed kid. Unfortunate.

DP.
What a strangely horrible thing to say about a child.
I can only imagine what your children must think of you.

[Anonymous]

Pp here. I have two other kids and they are not as high achieving. They also get all As but the motivation and effort is night and day. I would be ecstatic if one of my kids ended up at UVA.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would secretly be upset if my child went to a state school. I would not openly freak out like OP is saying.

Your kid is non secretly upset with your parenting.

Actually my child has already said he does not want to go to UVA. He absolutely would also be upset if he did not get into a T10 school. I know how competitive it is so I’m trying to make him feel like he should be proud and happy to go to UVA.

you somehow raised a really judgmental and status obsessed kid. Unfortunate.

If you had a high stat motivated kid who has worked hard his entire life and shooting for the ivies, you and he would also be unhappy ending up at UVA.

No, because I have the perspective to know that the motivation and hard work will lead to great success, regardless of the name on the bachelor degree diploma, but especially when that name is from a still very good school like UVA. And my kid would know this too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you think this is limited to the 1% you have blinkers on.

True but the point is it’s most insane for the 1%ers.

NO. It is easier for 1%. The degree to which it is "most insane" is entirely a dynamic they magic out of their own neuroses and has absolutely ZERO to do with actual limitations on their options.

The 1%ers who choose to go the route of massive donations or spending enormous sums on private school/test prep/college advising/etc. in order to guarantee their kids entry into one of a very narrow range of schools are just being stupid. That's it. It's a stupid game akin to the billionaires who compete over who has the biggest yacht. Only worse because in this scenario their children are the yachts and their educations are being used in a d*ck-measuring contest. Gross. But not actually that hard to opt out of. Just don't.

We are in the top 1% or .5%. I grew up as a poor immigrant kid. I was equally focused, if not more, than my current high school student. Education was my ticket out of poverty. There was no back up plan. My rich kid can go to any school and will probably do fine.

Ambition and striving are popular to put down on DCUM. I wonder if this is what non ambitious say. I hear this in real life from adults who come from family money, but are unimpressive themselves or have unimpressive children. They call the achieving people strivers and look down on them.

I am proud of my achievements. I am proud of my children’s achievements.

No one has an issue with achievement. They have issues with the borderline mental breakdown-level of obsession with getting into certain institutions because those institutions are “elite” and convey “status.” And with the lack of perspective, especially amongst the parents who should know better, to understand that there are many, many successful people who didn’t go that route. Because ultimately it is just one small piece of the puzzle.

How do you know someone is having breakdown level obsession around getting into certain institutions? Honestly, it just reads like your own kids are not competitive, you gave up, some other parents and kids are still in the running and that equals mental breakdown. Nobody is breaking down about not getting into Harvard, ok. They will be upset for a few days if they expected it, then they will move on.

OP here. I posted this because I know a family literally claiming to be in crisis and falling apart over a kid who appears to be headed for a state college.

This person likely knows you well enough to show you their raw feelings.

People fall apart over vanity, sports, promotions, anything really.

I wish there were anything actually self-aware about it. I’m just subjected to endless stream-of-consciousness anxious blather.

I’m Asian American and education is embedded in our culture. Education is respected and the level of school matters. I try not to care and I am very well aware that one can be successful and happy in life without attending a prestigious university. We still want our children to get the best education they can receive.

+++1

Prestigious is not nearly the same as best education.

You are shamefully hiding your social striving behind a cheap mask of "valuing education" and fooling no one.

DP.

I am at a loss to understand how the word "striving" has become a derogatory term.

Same with the terms "try-hard" and other terms like that.
It reminds me of when Ogre screams NEEEERDS! in the movie.

The value of education (in confucian communities at least) is associated with social mobility.
What is shameful about social striving?
Are we supposed to "know out place" and pursue the same career as our fathers?

I see this attitude among a lot of Americans. The attitude that the circumstances of birth either cannot be overcome or are so difficult to overcome that it is not worth the effort.
Many Americans seem to believe IQ is an immutable trait determined at birth. Many Asians think it is plastic and can be improved through effort.
Many Americans believe that social mobility is practically dead in America. Many Asians are amazed at how much social mobility is possible in America with the application of effort.

Is this just something the upper classes want to instill in lower classes to preserve their position or people really believe that social mobility is neither possible nor desirable because that would be "striving"

This entire argument is a strawman.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you think this is limited to the 1% you have blinkers on.

True but the point is it’s most insane for the 1%ers.

NO. It is easier for 1%. The degree to which it is "most insane" is entirely a dynamic they magic out of their own neuroses and has absolutely ZERO to do with actual limitations on their options.

The 1%ers who choose to go the route of massive donations or spending enormous sums on private school/test prep/college advising/etc. in order to guarantee their kids entry into one of a very narrow range of schools are just being stupid. That's it. It's a stupid game akin to the billionaires who compete over who has the biggest yacht. Only worse because in this scenario their children are the yachts and their educations are being used in a d*ck-measuring contest. Gross. But not actually that hard to opt out of. Just don't.

We are in the top 1% or .5%. I grew up as a poor immigrant kid. I was equally focused, if not more, than my current high school student. Education was my ticket out of poverty. There was no back up plan. My rich kid can go to any school and will probably do fine.

Ambition and striving are popular to put down on DCUM. I wonder if this is what non ambitious say. I hear this in real life from adults who come from family money, but are unimpressive themselves or have unimpressive children. They call the achieving people strivers and look down on them.

I am proud of my achievements. I am proud of my children’s achievements.

No one has an issue with achievement. They have issues with the borderline mental breakdown-level of obsession with getting into certain institutions because those institutions are “elite” and convey “status.” And with the lack of perspective, especially amongst the parents who should know better, to understand that there are many, many successful people who didn’t go that route. Because ultimately it is just one small piece of the puzzle.

How do you know someone is having breakdown level obsession around getting into certain institutions? Honestly, it just reads like your own kids are not competitive, you gave up, some other parents and kids are still in the running and that equals mental breakdown. Nobody is breaking down about not getting into Harvard, ok. They will be upset for a few days if they expected it, then they will move on.

OP here. I posted this because I know a family literally claiming to be in crisis and falling apart over a kid who appears to be headed for a state college.

It’s in the moment. We all have dumb things we obsess over. Like you are mad at yourself for not getting a workout in. End of the world? No. But it can affect both your mood and your sense of self in the moment.

People who can worry about getting their kids into a T20 school seriously don’t have much to think about in the grand scheme of things. It’s natural for them to find something to hyper fixate on. Especially if you have the type of personality that has made you somewhat successful in life - that’s just how you process stuff. It’s fine.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you think this is limited to the 1% you have blinkers on.

True but the point is it’s most insane for the 1%ers.

NO. It is easier for 1%. The degree to which it is "most insane" is entirely a dynamic they magic out of their own neuroses and has absolutely ZERO to do with actual limitations on their options.

The 1%ers who choose to go the route of massive donations or spending enormous sums on private school/test prep/college advising/etc. in order to guarantee their kids entry into one of a very narrow range of schools are just being stupid. That's it. It's a stupid game akin to the billionaires who compete over who has the biggest yacht. Only worse because in this scenario their children are the yachts and their educations are being used in a d*ck-measuring contest. Gross. But not actually that hard to opt out of. Just don't.

We are in the top 1% or .5%. I grew up as a poor immigrant kid. I was equally focused, if not more, than my current high school student. Education was my ticket out of poverty. There was no back up plan. My rich kid can go to any school and will probably do fine.

Ambition and striving are popular to put down on DCUM. I wonder if this is what non ambitious say. I hear this in real life from adults who come from family money, but are unimpressive themselves or have unimpressive children. They call the achieving people strivers and look down on them.

I am proud of my achievements. I am proud of my children’s achievements.

The only “achievement” you mentioned is wealth.

DP. But what did you achieve? Do share!

Not the PP but I was from a broken single-parent home and went to an elite college on full pell grants and lots of aid. Like a couple other PPs I worked hard to make a better future. I had 99th %ile SAT scores and was Salutatorian, no FGLI boost back then. I have plenty of money, alas based on google I am not the vaunted "1%" income this thread refers to. I am however very wealthy and am full pay for my kids. The $ is not why I am proud. I am proud of what I achieved because I am a doctor and the head of my division. My spouse who was also poor is now a lawyer at a top firm. They worked hard as well to get where they have gotten, but our elite school was a huge part of our success. The support and structured advice we got there was immeasurable. Once we knew our children had the academic capacity and raw intelligence mixed with drive to have a good shot at a T20, of course we moved them to the top private school and encouraged them. Of course they did not need tutors or any fake EC/nonprofit-starting or anything like DCUM people do. Rather we encouraged them to be their own best, put energy into ECs they enjoyed, and be resilient. We did not want elites for $, rather for the same benefits we got: super smart peers, faculty who care and encourage all students, and every door open to them with more resources than imaginable. My kids are at T10/ivies and will likely go into medicine and a phD, which are not top-1% lucrative, and we could not care less. They can teach high school if they want, we do not care! The point is to get the best education and a leg up to get into any career, and the elites provide that. From my point of view elites are about exposure to to brilliance and endless possibilities. Luckily these schools are more socioeconomically diverse and more welcoming places to poor kids these days. Financial aid kids from public schools were a minority back in '91 and '93. There was never desperation on our part, just encouragement to try for the best. We considered anywhere in the T30ish to be a huge win, it was not top10 or bust

the elite colleges are not economically diverse.

They are now 'rich and poor'--which is diverse but misses the middle. Ivies/Hopkins--HHI under $150-200k are free. Donut holes ($175k-300kHHI) can't stomach $90k/year (unless education was a huge priority and many, many lifestyle sacrifices). Rest are rich families--or rich grandparents paying for it.

The elite colleges are much more economically diverse than they used to be and the elite colleges are the most economically diverse of all colleges out there. They have super poor all the way up to top 0.1% and they give the most aid to the UMC-not-poor 150k-250k folks.
270k HHI and we get some financial aid from the ivy our kid attends. DC got into 3 T15/ivy schools and the highest ranked one gave the best aid. Below T15 gave none. We are not at all poor. Yet we get aid. People with 200k or less go for FREE. The group between 200 and about 280k get some need base aid depending on assets. There is no world in which making in the 200s is POOR. Come off it and get perspective from real poor people, or those of us who grew up poor, ie well below median household income.

It’s not about being rich or poor. It’s about college affordability.

Even at $300k income Princeton (most generous Ivy) cost with aid comes to
$50k per year. That’s $200k+ for an undergrad degree for ONE child. That’s still too much if you’re in HCOL area family of 5 earning $300k (and didn’t start at $300k 10+ years ago). It used to be a student could work their way through college. That is no longer true. It’s out of control and fueled by parents who are willing to pay literally anything to have a prestigious bumper sticker on their Volvo.

And let’s not forget about easy govt loans … the Parent Plus loan crisis is coming…

DP. What? On 300k income, you can easily afford that. We are on under 150k and could afford that (we saved for each kid).

Agree with the PP, but, for most schools in that bracket, it's more like free tuition under 150k. Mine also in at 3 T15s a couple years ago. Initial COA was 40k, and we don't have a ton of assets. We were able to negotiate a better deal at kid's top choice with a more generous offer from an LAC. I have noticed that aid has gotten more generous over the past 3 years, though.

Again, affordability:
My top ranked public flagship was $13k per year 20 years ago - all in. Today the same school is over $40k/year.
No 18 year old kid can put themselves through a 40k/year college by working PT plus minimal loans. It used to be doable.

But....
Colleges will keep charging it as long as people keep paying it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I had a client with a net worth of $20MM+. Client was crazy worried about his DC's university and career prospects. I asked why worry (given the net worth). Client responded that the $20MM can vanish in a heartbeat.

However, realistically, a Harvard degree's worth is more likely to vanish in heartbeat (because of drugs, mental breakdown, lack of ambition).

OP here. It actually makes sense to me that a wealthy person would want their kid to study hard and have a good career. Work is essential to mental health and yes, $20MM can be wasted. But that kid could be happy with a teaching degree from a state school as much as an MBA and I banking career.

Give your kids enough so they can do anything, but not so much that they'll do nothing. -paraphrasing Warren Buffett

This includes the opportunities and resources you give them while they are growing.

There is such a thing as having too much opportunity. It burns the striver out of your children because they have been served a conveyor belt of never ending opportunity.

That is the exact attitude our friends and ourselves have. So far all of our kids are excelling. What it does do is open the door for choosing a career that is "typically lower paying" but something they love. And knowing that parents can help supplement if needed. But only 1 kid (out of 10+ families) chose that. Because many of our kids naturally have STEM inclinations (at least 1 parent in all the families are Techies---in my case we are both techies). So for my kid whose favorite classes were always Math and science, it is logical they picked Engineering as a major (and are doing well)---they would be miserable in a humanities major and/or career.
Other kid isn't as much STEM, but has good math talent and chose business/finance. Because they would also be miserable in a humanities major. Ironically, they became a great writer in college and are now the "writer on their team" at a Tech/Healthcare company, but most of job is tech focused.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would secretly be upset if my child went to a state school. I would not openly freak out like OP is saying.

Your kid is non secretly upset with your parenting.

Actually my child has already said he does not want to go to UVA. He absolutely would also be upset if he did not get into a T10 school. I know how competitive it is so I’m trying to make him feel like he should be proud and happy to go to UVA.

you somehow raised a really judgmental and status obsessed kid. Unfortunate.

If you had a high stat motivated kid who has worked hard his entire life and shooting for the ivies, you and he would also be unhappy ending up at UVA.

I promise you I wouldn’t be. You’re exactly who I’m talking about. Spoiled and demented.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I would secretly be upset if my child went to a state school. I would not openly freak out like OP is saying.

Your kid is non secretly upset with your parenting.

Actually my child has already said he does not want to go to UVA. He absolutely would also be upset if he did not get into a T10 school. I know how competitive it is so I’m trying to make him feel like he should be proud and happy to go to UVA.

you somehow raised a really judgmental and status obsessed kid. Unfortunate.

If you had a high stat motivated kid who has worked hard his entire life and shooting for the ivies, you and he would also be unhappy ending up at UVA.

No, because I have the perspective to know that the motivation and hard work will lead to great success, regardless of the name on the bachelor degree diploma, but especially when that name is from a still very good school like UVA. And my kid would know this too.

+1. imagine a kid so status obsessed that they believed going to UVA was some kind of consolation prize. I mean, really.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I had a client with a net worth of $20MM+. Client was crazy worried about his DC's university and career prospects. I asked why worry (given the net worth). Client responded that the $20MM can vanish in a heartbeat.

However, realistically, a Harvard degree's worth is more likely to vanish in heartbeat (because of drugs, mental breakdown, lack of ambition).

OP here. It actually makes sense to me that a wealthy person would want their kid to study hard and have a good career. Work is essential to mental health and yes, $20MM can be wasted. But that kid could be happy with a teaching degree from a state school as much as an MBA and I banking career.

Give your kids enough so they can do anything, but not so much that they'll do nothing. -paraphrasing Warren Buffett

This includes the opportunities and resources you give them while they are growing.

There is such a thing as having too much opportunity. It burns the striver out of your children because they have been served a conveyor belt of never ending opportunity.

That is the exact attitude our friends and ourselves have. So far all of our kids are excelling. What it does do is open the door for choosing a career that is "typically lower paying" but something they love. And knowing that parents can help supplement if needed. But only 1 kid (out of 10+ families) chose that. Because many of our kids naturally have STEM inclinations (at least 1 parent in all the families are Techies---in my case we are both techies). So for my kid whose favorite classes were always Math and science, it is logical they picked Engineering as a major (and are doing well)---they would be miserable in a humanities major and/or career.
Other kid isn't as much STEM, but has good math talent and chose business/finance. Because they would also be miserable in a humanities major. Ironically, they became a great writer in college and are now the "writer on their team" at a Tech/Healthcare company, but most of job is tech focused.

Nerds beget nerds.
And even the non-nerdy ones are actually nerds.