DEI at Michigan--NYT article

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Malcolm X was right, guilt ridden UMC white libs are the worst. Always "whitesplaining" to us black "folk" cause it makes them "feels" good to be the white knight. As a black person reading some of these posts it's really something to behold.

Actually I believe most of the posters here are white people talking to other white people to convince them of their views. Me included. I understand you personally don't support these initiatives, don't find them helpful, and don't think white people should be talking about this. I did hear your opinion. I am here to share mine. After all, I'm a tuition paying parent. So my opinion is more relevant than a rando DEI opponent.

I'm fine with criticism. I agree ineffective things were done. But there are things of value that were done as well.

Many people are pointing out that talking about problems and feelings makes things openly worse. I agree that can be true. But the alternative can be one-sided heavily negative outcomes for one group while the other goes blissfully about their lives.

Actually most people here read the article and want to discuss it not hear your general feelings about DEI. It’s hard to support failing initiatives that don’t even help or support the people they were designed for, ie the non white people in the article who had opinions that are very different than yours. Maybe read the article and come back later.

PP. I read the whole article. I am providing relevant, complementary info and context.

It's hardly useful to use a thread about an article to say "See, I always knew DEI was bad".

I feel that there are actually relatively few actual professors and students cited in the article. Out of the thousands of possibly impacted people.

Although I agree a lot of time and effort was spent to write the article, I do not implicitly trust that the student leaders speak for all of their group.

I want to hear more concerning the issues raised. From people who have facts and direct experience with Michigan, not just randos with opinions. That could include more from the persons cited in the article.

I find your input easy to dismiss. You have added nothing new that hasn’t been said before. Your personal beliefs as a white lady are irrelevant and uninteresting.

Remind me why you are on DCUM?

+1 it’s odd this person things that because they don’t support DEI they think they can silence the opinions of others.

If the PP is silenced because of this that’s their own weak problem. But it’s rich that this white lady dismissed the speakesr of the Black Student Union because she “implicitly” doesn’t trust them. Wonder why she doesn’t trust them? Can anyone think of a reason? Maybe she should check her biases?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Malcolm X was right, guilt ridden UMC white libs are the worst. Always "whitesplaining" to us black "folk" cause it makes them "feels" good to be the white knight. As a black person reading some of these posts it's really something to behold.

Actually I believe most of the posters here are white people talking to other white people to convince them of their views. Me included. I understand you personally don't support these initiatives, don't find them helpful, and don't think white people should be talking about this. I did hear your opinion. I am here to share mine. After all, I'm a tuition paying parent. So my opinion is more relevant than a rando DEI opponent.

I'm fine with criticism. I agree ineffective things were done. But there are things of value that were done as well.

Many people are pointing out that talking about problems and feelings makes things openly worse. I agree that can be true. But the alternative can be one-sided heavily negative outcomes for one group while the other goes blissfully about their lives.

Actually most people here read the article and want to discuss it not hear your general feelings about DEI. It’s hard to support failing initiatives that don’t even help or support the people they were designed for, ie the non white people in the article who had opinions that are very different than yours. Maybe read the article and come back later.

PP. I read the whole article. I am providing relevant, complementary info and context.

It's hardly useful to use a thread about an article to say "See, I always knew DEI was bad".

I feel that there are actually relatively few actual professors and students cited in the article. Out of the thousands of possibly impacted people.

Although I agree a lot of time and effort was spent to write the article, I do not implicitly trust that the student leaders speak for all of their group.

I want to hear more concerning the issues raised. From people who have facts and direct experience with Michigan, not just randos with opinions. That could include more from the persons cited in the article.

I find your input easy to dismiss. You have added nothing new that hasn’t been said before. Your personal beliefs as a white lady are irrelevant and uninteresting.

Remind me why you are on DCUM?

+1 it’s odd this person things that because they don’t support DEI they think they can silence the opinions of others.

If the PP is silenced because of this that’s their own weak problem. But it’s rich that this white lady dismissed the speakesr of the Black Student Union because she “implicitly” doesn’t trust them. Wonder why she doesn’t trust them? Can anyone think of a reason? Maybe she should check her biases?

Right? I'm the black PP that posted a couple of times and mostly ignored. White UMC liberals are not interested in a person of color's viewpoint if it doesn't confirm their white guilt savior complex. This need for them to treat us like victims is sick.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:DEI has a couple of components. It can mean quotas/affirmative action, especially when there is an emphasis on leadership positions formerly left out of these programs. This is now illegal. It can mean programming and policies like trainings, speaker series, red tape and grievance processes, etc. The article suggests that this type of DEI is ineffective or counterproductive. Lastly, DEI broadly functions as a patronage/jobs program for minorities and especially white women who fill out the administrator, consultant, trainer rules demanded by the preceding meanings. But if the activities they're employed for are illegal, ineffectual or even harmful, it seems like a bad use of resources.

I don't like racism but I am hard pressed to see anything of value in DEI. Doing nothing is absolutely an option when the alternative is a net sink of resources.

The answer is localized DEI rather than sweeping programs. If a science department has low participation from non-white male students, making a more accessible intro class with extra resources is a dei concept that has helped many schools improve their department offerings and diversity.

If you notice women or students of color are dropping out of a program at a rate different to peers, ensuring there are affinity spaces can retain those students.

Where schools get it wrong is by making it a universal expectation. Humanities programs don’t need dei often- they tend to be safe havens for students of color and women- though Male-centered programming in some humanities fields may be helpful. There are many National organizations colleges can join for free to learn about DEI with each other that costs very little infrastructure nor resources.

$250mil sounds like massive administrative bloat that admin will find another stupid reason to waste to justify their jobs. There are very few campus activities worth that amount.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Malcolm X was right, guilt ridden UMC white libs are the worst. Always "whitesplaining" to us black "folk" cause it makes them "feels" good to be the white knight. As a black person reading some of these posts it's really something to behold.

Actually I believe most of the posters here are white people talking to other white people to convince them of their views. Me included. I understand you personally don't support these initiatives, don't find them helpful, and don't think white people should be talking about this. I did hear your opinion. I am here to share mine. After all, I'm a tuition paying parent. So my opinion is more relevant than a rando DEI opponent.

I'm fine with criticism. I agree ineffective things were done. But there are things of value that were done as well.

Many people are pointing out that talking about problems and feelings makes things openly worse. I agree that can be true. But the alternative can be one-sided heavily negative outcomes for one group while the other goes blissfully about their lives.

Actually most people here read the article and want to discuss it not hear your general feelings about DEI. It’s hard to support failing initiatives that don’t even help or support the people they were designed for, ie the non white people in the article who had opinions that are very different than yours. Maybe read the article and come back later.

PP. I read the whole article. I am providing relevant, complementary info and context.

It's hardly useful to use a thread about an article to say "See, I always knew DEI was bad".

I feel that there are actually relatively few actual professors and students cited in the article. Out of the thousands of possibly impacted people.

Although I agree a lot of time and effort was spent to write the article, I do not implicitly trust that the student leaders speak for all of their group.

I want to hear more concerning the issues raised. From people who have facts and direct experience with Michigan, not just randos with opinions. That could include more from the persons cited in the article.

I find your input easy to dismiss. You have added nothing new that hasn’t been said before. Your personal beliefs as a white lady are irrelevant and uninteresting.

Remind me why you are on DCUM?

+1 it’s odd this person things that because they don’t support DEI they think they can silence the opinions of others.

If the PP is silenced because of this that’s their own weak problem. But it’s rich that this white lady dismissed the speakesr of the Black Student Union because she “implicitly” doesn’t trust them. Wonder why she doesn’t trust them? Can anyone think of a reason? Maybe she should check her biases?

Right? I'm the black PP that posted a couple of times and mostly ignored. White UMC liberals are not interested in a person of color's viewpoint if it doesn't confirm their white guilt savior complex. This need for them to treat us like victims is sick.

Who mentioned being victims?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Okay so takeaway is:

Michigan = bad
Don't let your kids apply to it.




Please

Right? As a Michigan parent, this is not going to matter. Michigan is still (like all the other top schools) going to be a huge prize. My kid is having the time of his life and getting a great education. People are always thrilled for him that he got in and is there. This article isn't changing anything.

He may be assumed to be a "DEI" grad by potential employers.

Yes, we lie awake nights concerned about our white, top grades, econ major kid being pigeon-holed in this manor.
But seriously, as others have posted, we have no regrets about part of the tuition money we've spent going to fund this experiment (if it even has - didn't see where the funds came from). Race relations in this country are fraught and complicated and Michigan is at least trying.

DEI is breeding resentment and making this country evenmore divisive.

No, the very fine republicans are butthurt that we are no longer automatically putting people on a pedestal just because they are old, white Christian wealthy males.

This is about republicans. It was an article in the New York Times about liberal Michigan students for goodness sake.

No, the comment was around who was “breeding resentment and making this country even more divisive.”

No it wasn’t. “DEI is breeding resentment and making this country evenmore divisive.“

Tbf any discussion on race seems to offend white students today. Republicans are enforcing not teaching slavery because it “blames white people” and makes students feel sad.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Okay so takeaway is:

Michigan = bad
Don't let your kids apply to it.




Please

Right? As a Michigan parent, this is not going to matter. Michigan is still (like all the other top schools) going to be a huge prize. My kid is having the time of his life and getting a great education. People are always thrilled for him that he got in and is there. This article isn't changing anything.

He may be assumed to be a "DEI" grad by potential employers.

Yes, we lie awake nights concerned about our white, top grades, econ major kid being pigeon-holed in this manor.
But seriously, as others have posted, we have no regrets about part of the tuition money we've spent going to fund this experiment (if it even has - didn't see where the funds came from). Race relations in this country are fraught and complicated and Michigan is at least trying.

+1

I’ll take them doing something imperfectly over doing nothing.

Yeah - not at the cost and reach of these programs. “Trying” is not good enough for billions spent.

Meh. Many of the top schools were built and funded by the blood and sweat of black people.

They can spend a tiny fraction of their massive endowments to give it a go.

It’s not a tiny fraction. Did you read the article? There aren’t funds for things like parking because of these initiatives.

People can walk to the Arb with their legs.

America also wastes big money on parking.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_High_Cost_of_Free_Parking

We don’t need to waste money at all. That’s no argument.

And this is about the limited resources of U of Mich, not the US as a whole.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Okay so takeaway is:

Michigan = bad
Don't let your kids apply to it.




Please

Right? As a Michigan parent, this is not going to matter. Michigan is still (like all the other top schools) going to be a huge prize. My kid is having the time of his life and getting a great education. People are always thrilled for him that he got in and is there. This article isn't changing anything.

He may be assumed to be a "DEI" grad by potential employers.

Yes, we lie awake nights concerned about our white, top grades, econ major kid being pigeon-holed in this manor.
But seriously, as others have posted, we have no regrets about part of the tuition money we've spent going to fund this experiment (if it even has - didn't see where the funds came from). Race relations in this country are fraught and complicated and Michigan is at least trying.

DEI is breeding resentment and making this country evenmore divisive.

No, the very fine republicans are butthurt that we are no longer automatically putting people on a pedestal just because they are old, white Christian wealthy males.

This is about republicans. It was an article in the New York Times about liberal Michigan students for goodness sake.

No, the comment was around who was “breeding resentment and making this country even more divisive.”

No it wasn’t. “DEI is breeding resentment and making this country evenmore divisive.“

Tbf any discussion on race seems to offend white students today. Republicans are enforcing not teaching slavery because it “blames white people” and makes students feel sad.

Except this discussion is about the efficacy and cost of DEI programs at Michigan. It’s not about republicans (this is a very blue state and a campus with very liberal students) and it’s not specifically about white students. I am not sure why it’s so hard to keep on topic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Okay so takeaway is:

Michigan = bad
Don't let your kids apply to it.




Please

Right? As a Michigan parent, this is not going to matter. Michigan is still (like all the other top schools) going to be a huge prize. My kid is having the time of his life and getting a great education. People are always thrilled for him that he got in and is there. This article isn't changing anything.

He may be assumed to be a "DEI" grad by potential employers.

Yes, we lie awake nights concerned about our white, top grades, econ major kid being pigeon-holed in this manor.
But seriously, as others have posted, we have no regrets about part of the tuition money we've spent going to fund this experiment (if it even has - didn't see where the funds came from). Race relations in this country are fraught and complicated and Michigan is at least trying.

DEI is breeding resentment and making this country evenmore divisive.

No, the very fine republicans are butthurt that we are no longer automatically putting people on a pedestal just because they are old, white Christian wealthy males.

This is about republicans. It was an article in the New York Times about liberal Michigan students for goodness sake.

No, the comment was around who was “breeding resentment and making this country even more divisive.”

No it wasn’t. “DEI is breeding resentment and making this country evenmore divisive.“

Tbf any discussion on race seems to offend white students today. Republicans are enforcing not teaching slavery because it “blames white people” and makes students feel sad.

+1

Who here is “offended”? Even the students quoted weren’t offended.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Okay so takeaway is:

Michigan = bad
Don't let your kids apply to it.




Please

Right? As a Michigan parent, this is not going to matter. Michigan is still (like all the other top schools) going to be a huge prize. My kid is having the time of his life and getting a great education. People are always thrilled for him that he got in and is there. This article isn't changing anything.

He may be assumed to be a "DEI" grad by potential employers.

Yes, we lie awake nights concerned about our white, top grades, econ major kid being pigeon-holed in this manor.
But seriously, as others have posted, we have no regrets about part of the tuition money we've spent going to fund this experiment (if it even has - didn't see where the funds came from). Race relations in this country are fraught and complicated and Michigan is at least trying.

DEI is breeding resentment and making this country evenmore divisive.

No, the very fine republicans are butthurt that we are no longer automatically putting people on a pedestal just because they are old, white Christian wealthy males.

This is about republicans. It was an article in the New York Times about liberal Michigan students for goodness sake.

No, the comment was around who was “breeding resentment and making this country even more divisive.”

No it wasn’t. “DEI is breeding resentment and making this country evenmore divisive.“

Tbf any discussion on race seems to offend white students today. Republicans are enforcing not teaching slavery because it “blames white people” and makes students feel sad.

Because they can’t be bothered to actually read the article. Too long. I guess it’s true that people don’t read books anymore if they can’t even handle a long article.

Except this discussion is about the efficacy and cost of DEI programs at Michigan. It’s not about republicans (this is a very blue state and a campus with very liberal students) and it’s not specifically about white students. I am not sure why it’s so hard to keep on topic.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Malcolm X was right, guilt ridden UMC white libs are the worst. Always "whitesplaining" to us black "folk" cause it makes them "feels" good to be the white knight. As a black person reading some of these posts it's really something to behold.

Actually I believe most of the posters here are white people talking to other white people to convince them of their views. Me included. I understand you personally don't support these initiatives, don't find them helpful, and don't think white people should be talking about this. I did hear your opinion. I am here to share mine. After all, I'm a tuition paying parent. So my opinion is more relevant than a rando DEI opponent.

I'm fine with criticism. I agree ineffective things were done. But there are things of value that were done as well.

Many people are pointing out that talking about problems and feelings makes things openly worse. I agree that can be true. But the alternative can be one-sided heavily negative outcomes for one group while the other goes blissfully about their lives.

Actually most people here read the article and want to discuss it not hear your general feelings about DEI. It’s hard to support failing initiatives that don’t even help or support the people they were designed for, ie the non white people in the article who had opinions that are very different than yours. Maybe read the article and come back later.

PP. I read the whole article. I am providing relevant, complementary info and context.

It's hardly useful to use a thread about an article to say "See, I always knew DEI was bad".

I feel that there are actually relatively few actual professors and students cited in the article. Out of the thousands of possibly impacted people.

Although I agree a lot of time and effort was spent to write the article, I do not implicitly trust that the student leaders speak for all of their group.

I want to hear more concerning the issues raised. From people who have facts and direct experience with Michigan, not just randos with opinions. That could include more from the persons cited in the article.

I find your input easy to dismiss. You have added nothing new that hasn’t been said before. Your personal beliefs as a white lady are irrelevant and uninteresting.

Remind me why you are on DCUM?

+1 it’s odd this person things that because they don’t support DEI they think they can silence the opinions of others.

If the PP is silenced because of this that’s their own weak problem. But it’s rich that this white lady dismissed the speakesr of the Black Student Union because she “implicitly” doesn’t trust them. Wonder why she doesn’t trust them? Can anyone think of a reason? Maybe she should check her biases?

Right? I'm the black PP that posted a couple of times and mostly ignored. White UMC liberals are not interested in a person of color's viewpoint if it doesn't confirm their white guilt savior complex. This need for them to treat us like victims is sick.

PP. You're attacking my words. So let me explain. I said I want to know more and even hear more from the persons in the article. The reason I won't take anything I read at immediate face value is that many spicy or polarizing longform pieces are followed by more rigorous fact checking, accusations by interviewees that they were misquoted, etc. etc. I want to see how this plays out. I'll also say, and admit that I don't know about the specific state of the organization those officers represent, that campus groups that focus on identities often have internal schisms and/or don't fully represent the groups at the core of their mission. I would definitely like to know more about how popular that group is before I fully believe that they speak for 1,000s with full endorsement. I bet nobody on here has any on the ground knowledge of that. Don't assume this is a racial issue...it's a student org issue to me. I'm interested in the officers' viewpoints but I want to know how representative it is. Some of it rings true to me, but it might well be a pressure tactic. Do you believe everything your politicians say?

And actually, if you met me, you'd be surprised. I don't have any white savior complex or guilt. And I just had an experience with a committee where it took them 4 times as long as it should have (8 years vs. 2) to address a racially sensitive matter in a reasonably effective and positive way. I understand there are messes all over the place. My main interest is improved educational opportunities and higher academic standards. Which includes access for underprivileged kids like my grandma who was a first gen low-income foster kid who went to an Ivy in the 1930s.

Trying to help is not a savior complex and does not imply guilt. And I actually prefer the personality type of "self made men" and "self made women". But remember all the flak about "You didn't build that"? Culture and environment impact life in lots of ways.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I srill just can't believe "Dei" stopped meaning "God." After a thousand years of Latin Mass it has been erased by the internet

So many layers of stupid here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Okay so takeaway is:

Michigan = bad
Don't let your kids apply to it.




Please

Right? As a Michigan parent, this is not going to matter. Michigan is still (like all the other top schools) going to be a huge prize. My kid is having the time of his life and getting a great education. People are always thrilled for him that he got in and is there. This article isn't changing anything.

He may be assumed to be a "DEI" grad by potential employers.

Yes, we lie awake nights concerned about our white, top grades, econ major kid being pigeon-holed in this manor.
But seriously, as others have posted, we have no regrets about part of the tuition money we've spent going to fund this experiment (if it even has - didn't see where the funds came from). Race relations in this country are fraught and complicated and Michigan is at least trying.

DEI is breeding resentment and making this country evenmore divisive.

No, the very fine republicans are butthurt that we are no longer automatically putting people on a pedestal just because they are old, white Christian wealthy males.

This is about republicans. It was an article in the New York Times about liberal Michigan students for goodness sake.

No, the comment was around who was “breeding resentment and making this country even more divisive.”

No it wasn’t. “DEI is breeding resentment and making this country evenmore divisive.“

Tbf any discussion on race seems to offend white students today. Republicans are enforcing not teaching slavery because it “blames white people” and makes students feel sad.

Except this discussion is about the efficacy and cost of DEI programs at Michigan. It’s not about republicans (this is a very blue state and a campus with very liberal students) and it’s not specifically about white students. I am not sure why it’s so hard to keep on topic.

Because there’s not much to say?? Like great, mich is getting rid of dei, great.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Jesus, Joseph, and Mary. $250 million on DEI bullcrap. Imagine how many scholarships that money could have paid for, how many professors' salaries or research initiatives. What a waste.

So wasteful. They will realize soon enough, though. They have a massive problem on their hands. It comes in the form of their students.

OP here.

The craziest part of the article is that NO ONE seems to benefit from Michigan's DEI initiative.

Black students feel that they haven't benefitted.

Professors are living in fear.

Vast amounts of money spent, and it's had absolutely no measurable benefit.

Well the DEI employees are probably benefitting.

The DEI employees are admin on welfare who send out a few emails a week.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Malcolm X was right, guilt ridden UMC white libs are the worst. Always "whitesplaining" to us black "folk" cause it makes them "feels" good to be the white knight. As a black person reading some of these posts it's really something to behold.

Do you think racism exists in the US today?

If so, do you think it should be addressed? How?

Probably not by sending a bunch of emails and surveys to disaffected students again and again the way Michigan does.

You’re minimizing the work they’ve done over the last decade, including better representation in faculty.

[Anonymous]

Admin outnumbers faculty "The Ann Arbor campus grew to have nearly 16,000 nonfaculty employees, more than twice the number of full-time faculty members."