APS and Grading for Equity - Discuss

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’d be fine with retakes if the test were different every time. Then the student would still be on the hook for the curriculum rather than performing sanctioned cheating.

In our school, the tests don’t change.

And who has to write the new exam?

This is an unreasonable imposition on teachers (if teachers want to do it, fine)

But obviously re-answering the same exact questions doesn't show same mastery as answering correctly the first time. This is why retests are a bad idea.

+1
Re-taking the exact same multiple choice test you now have the answers to several times, especially if it’s less than 20 questions… is for absolute morons, I’m sorry.

I understand everyone has a bad day sometimes, and deserves a second chance, I understand there are stresses and anxieties around tests, in addition to the clear benefit to discuss wrong answers and be able to learn. I’m not categorically against an option to retake at all. However, the proposed policy seems to render any testing useless.

Students are not retaking the exact same test. Additionally, there are tasks they typically have to do before they can retake the test to show they’ve put in the work to learn the skill the 2nd time around. Things like redo assignments that were missed or wrong, attend help sessions etc.
It’s not just taking it over and over until the grade is better.

So now the teacher has to write an endless variety of tests for each unit? And grade more and more assignments. Just one more thing to drive teachers out of the profession.

Yes and no.
Yes, they could write up a ton of questions or copy/paste from somewhere, put them in a format and then use a random generator to generate a different test .
No, they could use an AI tool to suggest questions

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’d be fine with retakes if the test were different every time. Then the student would still be on the hook for the curriculum rather than performing sanctioned cheating.

In our school, the tests don’t change.

And who has to write the new exam?

This is an unreasonable imposition on teachers (if teachers want to do it, fine)

But obviously re-answering the same exact questions doesn't show same mastery as answering correctly the first time. This is why retests are a bad idea.

+1
Re-taking the exact same multiple choice test you now have the answers to several times, especially if it’s less than 20 questions… is for absolute morons, I’m sorry.

I understand everyone has a bad day sometimes, and deserves a second chance, I understand there are stresses and anxieties around tests, in addition to the clear benefit to discuss wrong answers and be able to learn. I’m not categorically against an option to retake at all. However, the proposed policy seems to render any testing useless.

Students are not retaking the exact same test. Additionally, there are tasks they typically have to do before they can retake the test to show they’ve put in the work to learn the skill the 2nd time around. Things like redo assignments that were missed or wrong, attend help sessions etc.
It’s not just taking it over and over until the grade is better.

My kids are retaking the same test. Yes the teacher makes them do a little work before the retest but it's less work than it would take to learn all the material well enough to get an A without a retest.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:They keep missing the mark. It's not equity grading that's needed. It's equitable access to the services that would allow a student to get a good grade.

Right now, If you are wealthy, and your child struggles with reading, you hire a reading tutor. If you are wealthy and your child struggles with organization and ADHD, you hire an executive function coach. Same with math, writing, and so on.

Starting in middle school and then high school, so many teachers waste precious time telling students "learn to manage your time!" or "you need to have good time management and organization skills to succeed!" But no teachers ever bother to teach either. How do they think kids get these skills? Magic wand perhaps? But then again a good portion of teachers suck at both of those skills as well so I guess it's not realistic to suggest they teach them.

+1 IMO, all kids in middle school should have one class period that is a structured, study-skills class. Not just a "study hall" where they have free time to maybe get something done but actually provide the executive function coaching that wealthy families will seek out. Sure, some kids won't need that help but might learn some good tips, and other kids will never get it otherwise.

[Anonymous]

The class exists. For special education students it’s called instructional studies. For gen Ed students it’s called core plus.
P.17 of the middle school program of studies
https://www.apsva.us/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/APS-Middle-School-POS-2023-24-FINAL.pdf

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The class exists. For special education students it’s called instructional studies. For gen Ed students it’s called core plus.
P.17 of the middle school program of studies
https://www.apsva.us/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/APS-Middle-School-POS-2023-24-FINAL.pdf

These require students to use an elective to take, and kids don't get many electives. So it often comes at the expense of other more interesting or engaging electives that can really benefit the child in multiple ways (music, art, a computer science, etc.) Unless your child is "very special needs" and benefits from constant focus and oversight on their outstanding assignments, a whole class for this is just dreadful for a kid,

Every middle school has a "mascot period" or TA class. This is where those things are supposed to be/should be happening. The students who need specific skills training more would/should be getting it, and those who don't are able to read or work on other assignments.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The class exists. For special education students it’s called instructional studies. For gen Ed students it’s called core plus.
P.17 of the middle school program of studies
https://www.apsva.us/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/APS-Middle-School-POS-2023-24-FINAL.pdf

These require students to use an elective to take, and kids don't get many electives. So it often comes at the expense of other more interesting or engaging electives that can really benefit the child in multiple ways (music, art, a computer science, etc.) Unless your child is "very special needs" and benefits from constant focus and oversight on their outstanding assignments, a whole class for this is just dreadful for a kid,

Every middle school has a "mascot period" or TA class. This is where those things are supposed to be/should be happening. The students who need specific skills training more would/should be getting it, and those who don't are able to read or work on other assignments.

It shouldn't be an elective class because it implies that some students need and some don't. All student in middle school need it. They don't have time management skills.
The mascot period makes sense and that's when it should happen.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The class exists. For special education students it’s called instructional studies. For gen Ed students it’s called core plus.
P.17 of the middle school program of studies
https://www.apsva.us/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/APS-Middle-School-POS-2023-24-FINAL.pdf

These require students to use an elective to take, and kids don't get many electives. So it often comes at the expense of other more interesting or engaging electives that can really benefit the child in multiple ways (music, art, a computer science, etc.) Unless your child is "very special needs" and benefits from constant focus and oversight on their outstanding assignments, a whole class for this is just dreadful for a kid,

Every middle school has a "mascot period" or TA class. This is where those things are supposed to be/should be happening. The students who need specific skills training more would/should be getting it, and those who don't are able to read or work on other assignments.

It shouldn't be an elective class because it implies that some students need and some don't. All student in middle school need it. They don't have time management skills.
The mascot period makes sense and that's when it should happen.

Except for the ones who do. Land the chopper, mom. You spent years protecting your kid from feeling bad by stepping in when they would otherwise face the consequences of their actions, and now you want schools to make up for it and other students to pass up something that interests them so they can sit through a class they don't need.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The class exists. For special education students it’s called instructional studies. For gen Ed students it’s called core plus.
P.17 of the middle school program of studies
https://www.apsva.us/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/APS-Middle-School-POS-2023-24-FINAL.pdf

These require students to use an elective to take, and kids don't get many electives. So it often comes at the expense of other more interesting or engaging electives that can really benefit the child in multiple ways (music, art, a computer science, etc.) Unless your child is "very special needs" and benefits from constant focus and oversight on their outstanding assignments, a whole class for this is just dreadful for a kid,

Every middle school has a "mascot period" or TA class. This is where those things are supposed to be/should be happening. The students who need specific skills training more would/should be getting it, and those who don't are able to read or work on other assignments.

It shouldn't be an elective class because it implies that some students need and some don't. All student in middle school need it. They don't have time management skills.
The mascot period makes sense and that's when it should happen.

Except for the ones who do. Land the chopper, mom. You spent years protecting your kid from feeling bad by stepping in when they would otherwise face the consequences of their actions, and now you want schools to make up for it and other students to pass up something that interests them so they can sit through a class they don't need.

Not the PP you're responding to; but geez! They said mascot period is where this should be happening and, as pointed out previously, the kids who need it could get it there and the others who don't need it can work on other things or read. Every kid is forced to have mascot period and this is where each kid can get what they need. So what's your problem? Your chopper comment is really not appropriate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’d be fine with retakes if the test were different every time. Then the student would still be on the hook for the curriculum rather than performing sanctioned cheating.

In our school, the tests don’t change.

And who has to write the new exam?

This is an unreasonable imposition on teachers (if teachers want to do it, fine)

But obviously re-answering the same exact questions doesn't show same mastery as answering correctly the first time. This is why retests are a bad idea.

+1
Re-taking the exact same multiple choice test you now have the answers to several times, especially if it’s less than 20 questions… is for absolute morons, I’m sorry.

I understand everyone has a bad day sometimes, and deserves a second chance, I understand there are stresses and anxieties around tests, in addition to the clear benefit to discuss wrong answers and be able to learn. I’m not categorically against an option to retake at all. However, the proposed policy seems to render any testing useless.

Students are not retaking the exact same test. Additionally, there are tasks they typically have to do before they can retake the test to show they’ve put in the work to learn the skill the 2nd time around. Things like redo assignments that were missed or wrong, attend help sessions etc.
It’s not just taking it over and over until the grade is better.

My kids are retaking the same test. Yes the teacher makes them do a little work before the retest but it's less work than it would take to learn all the material well enough to get an A without a retest.

Yep same test for many classes. Classes that change are only switching out variables but everything else the same. It’s a joke.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am moving my son from Catholic school back to public for more flexible grading polices and extended homework time at APS. It is difficult for him currently complete homework and study some nights due to getting out from school extended day at 5 or 6 PM and then sports practices some evenings. (Yes, we think 11-year-olds should be allowed to play sports on several school weeknights nights after sitting indoors for most of the day, 8-6).

Catholic and private schools have rigid grading polices, points lost for late homework and NO test make-up or retake polices. One poor test grade and a missing homework assignment or 2 can bring a good student down to a "D" grade! And teachers do not care about outside commitments therefore will not give parents homework in advance for weekends.

I think a reasonable approach of a few extra days to turn in assignments or occasional test retakes to help boost a grade (but not totally wipe it out) is a good compromise.

We moved our son from a competitive rigorous private to public in 10th grade for social reasons. The level of rigor in public is disappointing to say the least. 10th grade English had about the same level of expectation that was expected of him in 7th grade. He gets hardly any homework and as a rising senior has an UW GPA of 4.0 with very little effort. All he says he has to do for his As is show up and complete the minimal assignments which is normally done in his mandatory study hall class. Luckily the APs and DEs he took this year have challenged him somewhat.

Public schools are sad and it’s incredible to me how they plan to water it down even more. I feel like they just warehouse these kids. I don’t see how the majority of the public school graduates will be able to compete academically in college with the kids who have had a great classical education.

He has had such a great foundation in creative and analytical writing he’s already fishished all of his college essays and once the common app opens up he will have that done and just focus on his supplementals and the few schools who don’t take the common app. In the meantime his friends in public are going to need a tremendous amount of support just to be able to write a coherent 600 word essay.

[Anonymous]

Agree with PP above. Our experience in Catholic schools vs. public was mind boggling re: rigor and expectation differences.

But I wish our Catholic school had a "mascot period." I think it would help my middle schooler a lot.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am moving my son from Catholic school back to public for more flexible grading polices and extended homework time at APS. It is difficult for him currently complete homework and study some nights due to getting out from school extended day at 5 or 6 PM and then sports practices some evenings. (Yes, we think 11-year-olds should be allowed to play sports on several school weeknights nights after sitting indoors for most of the day, 8-6).

Catholic and private schools have rigid grading polices, points lost for late homework and NO test make-up or retake polices. One poor test grade and a missing homework assignment or 2 can bring a good student down to a "D" grade! And teachers do not care about outside commitments therefore will not give parents homework in advance for weekends.

I think a reasonable approach of a few extra days to turn in assignments or occasional test retakes to help boost a grade (but not totally wipe it out) is a good compromise.

We moved our son from a competitive rigorous private to public in 10th grade for social reasons. The level of rigor in public is disappointing to say the least. 10th grade English had about the same level of expectation that was expected of him in 7th grade. He gets hardly any homework and as a rising senior has an UW GPA of 4.0 with very little effort. All he says he has to do for his As is show up and complete the minimal assignments which is normally done in his mandatory study hall class. Luckily the APs and DEs he took this year have challenged him somewhat.

Public schools are sad and it’s incredible to me how they plan to water it down even more. I feel like they just warehouse these kids. I don’t see how the majority of the public school graduates will be able to compete academically in college with the kids who have had a great classical education.

He has had such a great foundation in creative and analytical writing he’s already fishished all of his college essays and once the common app opens up he will have that done and just focus on his supplementals and the few schools who don’t take the common app. In the meantime his friends in public are going to need a tremendous amount of support just to be able to write a coherent 600 word essay.

I suppose one’s experience depends on the school or programs within the school, even within a large public school system. Neighbors at W-L have said that rigour and high expectations underlie the coursework there. The school is in fact very challenging, in a good way. You can’t just coast through.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The class exists. For special education students it’s called instructional studies. For gen Ed students it’s called core plus.
P.17 of the middle school program of studies
https://www.apsva.us/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/APS-Middle-School-POS-2023-24-FINAL.pdf

These require students to use an elective to take, and kids don't get many electives. So it often comes at the expense of other more interesting or engaging electives that can really benefit the child in multiple ways (music, art, a computer science, etc.) Unless your child is "very special needs" and benefits from constant focus and oversight on their outstanding assignments, a whole class for this is just dreadful for a kid,

Every middle school has a "mascot period" or TA class. This is where those things are supposed to be/should be happening. The students who need specific skills training more would/should be getting it, and those who don't are able to read or work on other assignments.

It shouldn't be an elective class because it implies that some students need and some don't. All student in middle school need it. They don't have time management skills.
The mascot period makes sense and that's when it should happen.

Except for the ones who do. Land the chopper, mom. You spent years protecting your kid from feeling bad by stepping in when they would otherwise face the consequences of their actions, and now you want schools to make up for it and other students to pass up something that interests them so they can sit through a class they don't need.

The ones who want a study period are the ones who also want consequences for bad grades so I don’t know where this comment is coming from.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The class exists. For special education students it’s called instructional studies. For gen Ed students it’s called core plus.
P.17 of the middle school program of studies
https://www.apsva.us/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/APS-Middle-School-POS-2023-24-FINAL.pdf

These require students to use an elective to take, and kids don't get many electives. So it often comes at the expense of other more interesting or engaging electives that can really benefit the child in multiple ways (music, art, a computer science, etc.) Unless your child is "very special needs" and benefits from constant focus and oversight on their outstanding assignments, a whole class for this is just dreadful for a kid,

Every middle school has a "mascot period" or TA class. This is where those things are supposed to be/should be happening. The students who need specific skills training more would/should be getting it, and those who don't are able to read or work on other assignments.

It shouldn't be an elective class because it implies that some students need and some don't. All student in middle school need it. They don't have time management skills.
The mascot period makes sense and that's when it should happen.

Except for the ones who do. Land the chopper, mom. You spent years protecting your kid from feeling bad by stepping in when they would otherwise face the consequences of their actions, and now you want schools to make up for it and other students to pass up something that interests them so they can sit through a class they don't need.

I'm not the PP but I thought the point here was that the school was protecting kids from.bad consequences by allowing constant retakes. I would rather have my kids get bad grades if they do poorly on a test, but that isn't an option
For next year when my kid is in 7th, I'm tempted to email the teachers and tell them I'm forbidding my kids from taking retests.

[Anonymous]

For what it’s worth, DD qualified for an IEP and is getting into the instructional studies class because of an anxiety diagnosis. I think it’s pretty awful that kids are just expected to pick up these soft skills along the way (*especially* now that standards are being lowered and they might not even have a chance to practice those skills until college), and every kid should have a study skills class. But your kid could be able to take the instructional studies class even with a run-of-the-mill anxiety or depression diagnosis.

And on a different note, when my nephew was in seventh grade he, like every other seventh grader in his school, took an instructional studies class. Part of that class was writing instruction and OMG. His writing was so good. His parents are working class and I hate to say this but honestly sometimes don’t seem very smart (but I adore them and think they are amazing!). They aren’t in some great school district but my nephew will have a major advantage over my kids when they get to college unless I get them outside help (and AI doesn’t make all these skills obsolete). We really should be teaching kids these skills in w dedicated class.