If teachers are leaving left and right, is it the principal's fault?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is a huge reason why public schools are failing. There are no consequences for poor behavior. I think class sizes play a role as well as staffing. We have full grade levels struggling due to the behavior of 5-8 kids. We have parents asking teachers how to parent their kids. It is a mess.

I think a lot of kids misbehave at school because they know they can get away with crap there that they wouldn’t at home. Teachers ‘ ability to deliver meaningful consequences has been stripped from teachers, and school administrators who are more interested in playing politician than in acknowledging their “in loco parentis” responsibilities, are doing little because they prioritize their own self-interest over the community for which they work.

THIS ^^. I'm one of the PPs who wound up quitting due to the horrendous behavior of some of my students. The principal and assistant principal looked at me like I had four heads when I brought the situation to their attention (they already knew about it, but continued to gaslight as if it was my fault). They refused to call the parents because they clearly didn't want the hassle of having to deal with them. I'm looking into teaching a private school, where kids troublemakers are not tolerated and teachers are supported.

There is so much gaslighting in education at every level. This is why teachers are done. Oh and the toxic positivity-nonsense.

what does that mean?

DP. Where I teach, it means something along the lines of "He wouldn't be failing/ refusing to come to school/ initiating fights with classmates/ calling you a f****** b**** if you tried a little harder to build a relationship and made your lesson plans more engaging. We know it's Thanksgiving Break but here's some PD to teach you how to do this more effectively!! Please remember to take time to connect with those around you and enjoy your time off!"

that makes absolutely no sense. you mean that's the messaging parents give you as a teacher???

DP. That makes perfect sense. This is the message teachers are given by both the parents and the administration - "It's YOUR fault if your students aren't engaged. It's YOUR fault if they're acting up and disrupting the class. What can YOU do to make this child behave better?" The PP nailed it.

DP, but I could have been the PP and written that post. Not only have I been told that I need to have a plan to support the disruptive students, but I also need to have and communicate my plans to support the students who are most affected (or have parents who are most vocal) by the disruptive students. Apparently if I set expectations, am consistent and model expected behaviors the disruptive students will behave appropriately. When they don’t it must be because I’m not doing these things. I also need to make sure I know what all of the students are doing, 100% of the time, which is tough to manage when so much time is spent working with small groups.

In my decades of teaching for FCPS I never had difficulty managing a class until just a few years ago (still pre-pandemic). I rarely needed to refer to the administrators, but when I did you could be sure I needed assistance. I’ve stopped doing that. It just creates too much trouble for me and draws the spotlight of criticism. Almost the entire day is disrupted in some way by outbursts, side conversations, arguments or students who are just off task in some way. I keep trying Responsive Classroom techniques, but if they work it is short-lived. I’ve always allowed for movement and I never have expected a silent classroom, but something has changed and each day is very difficult.

Exactly this. When I spoke to admin, they asked if I was using the chimes to quiet down the class. The f-ing chimes??!!? Sure, I use the chimes - and the kids completely ignore them. They.do.not.care. My voice is constantly hoarse from having to yell just to be heard - and I am not a yeller. If I'm trying to work with small groups, inevitably the troublemakers make it impossible for me to devote any time at all to the few kids who just want to learn and need my help. I'm constantly putting out metaphorical fires - spats between kids that are absurd - when I could be actually teaching them something. And apparently, all this bad behavior is my fault. No wonder teachers are leaving in droves. No doubt I'll be joining them if I can make it through this year.

Oh wow. This is my experience, 100%, down to the chime.

I’m retiring from full time teaching a few years earlier than I had planned.

Are chimes the latest fad? When I was teaching it was behavior contracts. You had to write out a document with a list of things the student would agree to do, and then have them sign it. Like signing a document saying they wouldn't stand up and start dancing on their chair in the middle of class was actually going to have any effect on a student who would do that in the first place. And it didn't. But it wasted a whole lot of your time writing that thing up.

For us the chime is part of being a responsive classroom school.

Same.
Theoretically the students are supposed to stop what they are doing and listen to the teacher.

Yes - “theoretically.” Have you actually tried this in practice? After the first few times, the kids ignore it completely. But do go on about “responsive classroom” nonsense.
DP

PP here.
Yes, I have actually tried it. Over and over. I teach an ES grade. That’s why I wrote “theoretically”. It works for the teachers in the demo videos.

Gotta push back on the RC hate. I've used the chime for 15 years now and it works in high and low income situations when its normed school wide. Sorry it doesn't work for you

I was a PP who thinks chimes are silly, but I loved RC when I was teaching. Chimes were not a thing, then. It must be newer. However, I had another silent method of getting attention (I am a quiet talker with a small voice and just don't have whatever it takes to yell), and it worked well up until 6th grade, when nothing works.

DP. Please share your method! I, too, am a quiet talker and I am constantly hoarse from having to raise my voice/yell. I need help.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What I would love is a teacher who is brave enough to write an expose of FCPS. Maybe someone who is planning to quit anyway. I really don't think the general public has any clue what it's actually like these days in the "responsive classroom."

I've been expose-ing fcps on this board since I quit 10 years ago. It's pointless. The system is so broken there. Parents have no idea, and the county likes it that way. If you read through these forums you'll see many many teachers posting the same things I have been saying. It's not a secret. But it's so bureaucratic that nothing can be changed. The whole top-down structure where all the decisions are made by people who are basically politicians and haven't been in a classroom in 30 years, and teachers are powerless.

Not sure why you are targeting RC though - it's just one of a million programs that gets adopted for a while and then replaced with something new a few years later. It's one of the better programs FCPS has, actually.

I'm targeting RC because it's a trendy program that simply doesn't work. Kids with behavioral issues continue to disrupt the class because they know there are no consequences. Kids who really want to learn continue being ignored while the teacher deals with the troublemakers. Rinse and repeat. RC does no one any favors. Troublemakers should be immediately dealt with, with real consequences (missing recess, actually getting yelled at by the principal, parents called, etc.). Babying them along and trying to relate to them emotionally is a waste of time for everyone. Teachers shouldn't be expected to devote their time to soothing the troublemakers back into good behavior (which does not work) at the expense of the other kids who simply want to learn.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What I would love is a teacher who is brave enough to write an expose of FCPS. Maybe someone who is planning to quit anyway. I really don't think the general public has any clue what it's actually like these days in the "responsive classroom."

I've been expose-ing fcps on this board since I quit 10 years ago. It's pointless. The system is so broken there. Parents have no idea, and the county likes it that way. If you read through these forums you'll see many many teachers posting the same things I have been saying. It's not a secret. But it's so bureaucratic that nothing can be changed. The whole top-down structure where all the decisions are made by people who are basically politicians and haven't been in a classroom in 30 years, and teachers are powerless.

Not sure why you are targeting RC though - it's just one of a million programs that gets adopted for a while and then replaced with something new a few years later. It's one of the better programs FCPS has, actually.

I'm targeting RC because it's a trendy program that simply doesn't work. Kids with behavioral issues continue to disrupt the class because they know there are no consequences. Kids who really want to learn continue being ignored while the teacher deals with the troublemakers. Rinse and repeat. RC does no one any favors. Troublemakers should be immediately dealt with, with real consequences (missing recess, actually getting yelled at by the principal, parents called, etc.). Babying them along and trying to relate to them emotionally is a waste of time for everyone. Teachers shouldn't be expected to devote their time to soothing the troublemakers back into good behavior (which does not work) at the expense of the other kids who simply want to learn.

None of those things you mentioned ever worked. Yelling and missing recess make things actively worse. I know this from experience, but it's also been well-documented, to the point where taking away recess isn't even allowed anymore. Calling parents is also completely ineffective. A good deal of the time the kids are like that because they come from pretty bad places, and that call is more likely to result in the kid being beaten than in any real change. Ask me how I know.

This was the nonsense advice that I got when I started teaching, and it took a while but I eventually learned that none of it worked. I figured out my own way, and it worked for me. Then came RC and lo and behold, it was pretty much the same thing I'd been doing, but put into a stupid canned format and accompanied by a bunch of fluff that made it seem much sillier than it is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What I would love is a teacher who is brave enough to write an expose of FCPS. Maybe someone who is planning to quit anyway. I really don't think the general public has any clue what it's actually like these days in the "responsive classroom."

I've been expose-ing fcps on this board since I quit 10 years ago. It's pointless. The system is so broken there. Parents have no idea, and the county likes it that way. If you read through these forums you'll see many many teachers posting the same things I have been saying. It's not a secret. But it's so bureaucratic that nothing can be changed. The whole top-down structure where all the decisions are made by people who are basically politicians and haven't been in a classroom in 30 years, and teachers are powerless.

Not sure why you are targeting RC though - it's just one of a million programs that gets adopted for a while and then replaced with something new a few years later. It's one of the better programs FCPS has, actually.

I'm targeting RC because it's a trendy program that simply doesn't work. Kids with behavioral issues continue to disrupt the class because they know there are no consequences. Kids who really want to learn continue being ignored while the teacher deals with the troublemakers. Rinse and repeat. RC does no one any favors. Troublemakers should be immediately dealt with, with real consequences (missing recess, actually getting yelled at by the principal, parents called, etc.). Babying them along and trying to relate to them emotionally is a waste of time for everyone. Teachers shouldn't be expected to devote their time to soothing the troublemakers back into good behavior (which does not work) at the expense of the other kids who simply want to learn.

Also, to add to the previous response, I suspect you are not even a teacher and have had no training or experience with RC beyond what you've heard, probably from some poor teacher who is forced to do RC without any real training or understanding of it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What I would love is a teacher who is brave enough to write an expose of FCPS. Maybe someone who is planning to quit anyway. I really don't think the general public has any clue what it's actually like these days in the "responsive classroom."

I've been expose-ing fcps on this board since I quit 10 years ago. It's pointless. The system is so broken there. Parents have no idea, and the county likes it that way. If you read through these forums you'll see many many teachers posting the same things I have been saying. It's not a secret. But it's so bureaucratic that nothing can be changed. The whole top-down structure where all the decisions are made by people who are basically politicians and haven't been in a classroom in 30 years, and teachers are powerless.

Not sure why you are targeting RC though - it's just one of a million programs that gets adopted for a while and then replaced with something new a few years later. It's one of the better programs FCPS has, actually.

I'm targeting RC because it's a trendy program that simply doesn't work. Kids with behavioral issues continue to disrupt the class because they know there are no consequences. Kids who really want to learn continue being ignored while the teacher deals with the troublemakers. Rinse and repeat. RC does no one any favors. Troublemakers should be immediately dealt with, with real consequences (missing recess, actually getting yelled at by the principal, parents called, etc.). Babying them along and trying to relate to them emotionally is a waste of time for everyone. Teachers shouldn't be expected to devote their time to soothing the troublemakers back into good behavior (which does not work) at the expense of the other kids who simply want to learn.

Parent of a rule following child who loves to learn here - my kid doesn't want you yelling at her peers, even if they're being a pain in the butt. She had a teacher like that and was terrified of her. It was her worst year at school ever. And my kid is the good kid. No one was yelling at her and being mean to her, but she couldn't handle the teeny tiny remote possibility of her teacher going off on her like she did other kids. Consider the stress you are causing other children when you yell at their peers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is a huge reason why public schools are failing. There are no consequences for poor behavior. I think class sizes play a role as well as staffing. We have full grade levels struggling due to the behavior of 5-8 kids. We have parents asking teachers how to parent their kids. It is a mess.

I think a lot of kids misbehave at school because they know they can get away with crap there that they wouldn’t at home. Teachers ‘ ability to deliver meaningful consequences has been stripped from teachers, and school administrators who are more interested in playing politician than in acknowledging their “in loco parentis” responsibilities, are doing little because they prioritize their own self-interest over the community for which they work.

THIS ^^. I'm one of the PPs who wound up quitting due to the horrendous behavior of some of my students. The principal and assistant principal looked at me like I had four heads when I brought the situation to their attention (they already knew about it, but continued to gaslight as if it was my fault). They refused to call the parents because they clearly didn't want the hassle of having to deal with them. I'm looking into teaching a private school, where kids troublemakers are not tolerated and teachers are supported.

There is so much gaslighting in education at every level. This is why teachers are done. Oh and the toxic positivity-nonsense.

what does that mean?

DP. Where I teach, it means something along the lines of "He wouldn't be failing/ refusing to come to school/ initiating fights with classmates/ calling you a f****** b**** if you tried a little harder to build a relationship and made your lesson plans more engaging. We know it's Thanksgiving Break but here's some PD to teach you how to do this more effectively!! Please remember to take time to connect with those around you and enjoy your time off!"

that makes absolutely no sense. you mean that's the messaging parents give you as a teacher???

DP. That makes perfect sense. This is the message teachers are given by both the parents and the administration - "It's YOUR fault if your students aren't engaged. It's YOUR fault if they're acting up and disrupting the class. What can YOU do to make this child behave better?" The PP nailed it.

DP, but I could have been the PP and written that post. Not only have I been told that I need to have a plan to support the disruptive students, but I also need to have and communicate my plans to support the students who are most affected (or have parents who are most vocal) by the disruptive students. Apparently if I set expectations, am consistent and model expected behaviors the disruptive students will behave appropriately. When they don’t it must be because I’m not doing these things. I also need to make sure I know what all of the students are doing, 100% of the time, which is tough to manage when so much time is spent working with small groups.

In my decades of teaching for FCPS I never had difficulty managing a class until just a few years ago (still pre-pandemic). I rarely needed to refer to the administrators, but when I did you could be sure I needed assistance. I’ve stopped doing that. It just creates too much trouble for me and draws the spotlight of criticism. Almost the entire day is disrupted in some way by outbursts, side conversations, arguments or students who are just off task in some way. I keep trying Responsive Classroom techniques, but if they work it is short-lived. I’ve always allowed for movement and I never have expected a silent classroom, but something has changed and each day is very difficult.

Exactly this. When I spoke to admin, they asked if I was using the chimes to quiet down the class. The f-ing chimes??!!? Sure, I use the chimes - and the kids completely ignore them. They.do.not.care. My voice is constantly hoarse from having to yell just to be heard - and I am not a yeller. If I'm trying to work with small groups, inevitably the troublemakers make it impossible for me to devote any time at all to the few kids who just want to learn and need my help. I'm constantly putting out metaphorical fires - spats between kids that are absurd - when I could be actually teaching them something. And apparently, all this bad behavior is my fault. No wonder teachers are leaving in droves. No doubt I'll be joining them if I can make it through this year.

Oh wow. This is my experience, 100%, down to the chime.

I’m retiring from full time teaching a few years earlier than I had planned.

Are chimes the latest fad? When I was teaching it was behavior contracts. You had to write out a document with a list of things the student would agree to do, and then have them sign it. Like signing a document saying they wouldn't stand up and start dancing on their chair in the middle of class was actually going to have any effect on a student who would do that in the first place. And it didn't. But it wasted a whole lot of your time writing that thing up.

For us the chime is part of being a responsive classroom school.

Same.
Theoretically the students are supposed to stop what they are doing and listen to the teacher.

Yes - “theoretically.” Have you actually tried this in practice? After the first few times, the kids ignore it completely. But do go on about “responsive classroom” nonsense.
DP

PP here.
Yes, I have actually tried it. Over and over. I teach an ES grade. That’s why I wrote “theoretically”. It works for the teachers in the demo videos.

Gotta push back on the RC hate. I've used the chime for 15 years now and it works in high and low income situations when its normed school wide. Sorry it doesn't work for you

I was a PP who thinks chimes are silly, but I loved RC when I was teaching. Chimes were not a thing, then. It must be newer. However, I had another silent method of getting attention (I am a quiet talker with a small voice and just don't have whatever it takes to yell), and it worked well up until 6th grade, when nothing works.

DP. Please share your method! I, too, am a quiet talker and I am constantly hoarse from having to raise my voice/yell. I need help.

I'll tell you, but I think to a certain extent a teacher needs to find his or her own way and rely more on instinct and common sense than on the advice of others.

My favorite method was to raise my hand into the air and just stand there and wait. When a student sees my hand up, he or she is supposed to stop talking and look at me and raise their own hand. Then everyone who sees that student does the same, and within a few seconds the whole class has caught on and all have raised their hands and are looking at the teacher. Then you have their attention and can say what you want. If people are whispering or still talking a little at any point, I'd just stop and wait. If I was feeling snarky, I'd stare right at the offenders and say softly, "I'll wait" and then everyone would turn and stare at them and...problem solved.

The key thing about that is that you can only do it when you really need their attention or when the volume has risen to an unbearable level in the room and you just need them to settle. I also kept a bell on my desk, and during reading groups would ring the bell when the noise level started to get too high for me to hear. Of course, you have to train students on both methods. And you can't resort to just yelling or doing something else if it's taking a bit too long.

The other important thing is that you are better off if you don't expect a silent classroom. As long as you can stand the noise level, chatting and socializing while more or less staying on task is a normal thing for children. A silent room is not desirable for me, and I believe it is unhealthy for young children. That doesn't mean it's so loud you can't hear the child you want to talk to, though. Hence the bell and the hand trick. You will need to use them every day, regularly - think of it as management, not a permanent solution. I mean, they're kids.

Other things that help are frequent breaks and brief periods of whole group instruction. If you are going to give instructions or talk for more than 10 minutes (or even 5), you will lose them. Keep that stuff brief. Keep lessons engaging, allow a lot of back and forth during whole group lessons, call on people all the time for opinions or input to keep them on their toes and paying attention. Don't expect them to sit quietly doing worksheets or listen to a 20 minute lecture.

Anyway, that's what worked for me, at least in the lower elementary grades. By the upper grades, especially 6, I had to mostly just keep the lessons going at a breakneck pace in order to distract them from thinking up new ways to cause trouble.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What I would love is a teacher who is brave enough to write an expose of FCPS. Maybe someone who is planning to quit anyway. I really don't think the general public has any clue what it's actually like these days in the "responsive classroom."

I've been expose-ing fcps on this board since I quit 10 years ago. It's pointless. The system is so broken there. Parents have no idea, and the county likes it that way. If you read through these forums you'll see many many teachers posting the same things I have been saying. It's not a secret. But it's so bureaucratic that nothing can be changed. The whole top-down structure where all the decisions are made by people who are basically politicians and haven't been in a classroom in 30 years, and teachers are powerless.

Not sure why you are targeting RC though - it's just one of a million programs that gets adopted for a while and then replaced with something new a few years later. It's one of the better programs FCPS has, actually.

I'm targeting RC because it's a trendy program that simply doesn't work. Kids with behavioral issues continue to disrupt the class because they know there are no consequences. Kids who really want to learn continue being ignored while the teacher deals with the troublemakers. Rinse and repeat. RC does no one any favors. Troublemakers should be immediately dealt with, with real consequences (missing recess, actually getting yelled at by the principal, parents called, etc.). Babying them along and trying to relate to them emotionally is a waste of time for everyone. Teachers shouldn't be expected to devote their time to soothing the troublemakers back into good behavior (which does not work) at the expense of the other kids who simply want to learn.

Parent of a rule following child who loves to learn here - my kid doesn't want you yelling at her peers, even if they're being a pain in the butt. She had a teacher like that and was terrified of her. It was her worst year at school ever. And my kid is the good kid. No one was yelling at her and being mean to her, but she couldn't handle the teeny tiny remote possibility of her teacher going off on her like she did other kids. Consider the stress you are causing other children when you yell at their peers.

Let's just hope PP isn't a teacher, since they think that trying to relate to children emotionally is a "waste of time."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is a huge reason why public schools are failing. There are no consequences for poor behavior. I think class sizes play a role as well as staffing. We have full grade levels struggling due to the behavior of 5-8 kids. We have parents asking teachers how to parent their kids. It is a mess.

I think a lot of kids misbehave at school because they know they can get away with crap there that they wouldn’t at home. Teachers ‘ ability to deliver meaningful consequences has been stripped from teachers, and school administrators who are more interested in playing politician than in acknowledging their “in loco parentis” responsibilities, are doing little because they prioritize their own self-interest over the community for which they work.

THIS ^^. I'm one of the PPs who wound up quitting due to the horrendous behavior of some of my students. The principal and assistant principal looked at me like I had four heads when I brought the situation to their attention (they already knew about it, but continued to gaslight as if it was my fault). They refused to call the parents because they clearly didn't want the hassle of having to deal with them. I'm looking into teaching a private school, where kids troublemakers are not tolerated and teachers are supported.

There is so much gaslighting in education at every level. This is why teachers are done. Oh and the toxic positivity-nonsense.

what does that mean?

DP. Where I teach, it means something along the lines of "He wouldn't be failing/ refusing to come to school/ initiating fights with classmates/ calling you a f****** b**** if you tried a little harder to build a relationship and made your lesson plans more engaging. We know it's Thanksgiving Break but here's some PD to teach you how to do this more effectively!! Please remember to take time to connect with those around you and enjoy your time off!"

that makes absolutely no sense. you mean that's the messaging parents give you as a teacher???

DP. That makes perfect sense. This is the message teachers are given by both the parents and the administration - "It's YOUR fault if your students aren't engaged. It's YOUR fault if they're acting up and disrupting the class. What can YOU do to make this child behave better?" The PP nailed it.

DP, but I could have been the PP and written that post. Not only have I been told that I need to have a plan to support the disruptive students, but I also need to have and communicate my plans to support the students who are most affected (or have parents who are most vocal) by the disruptive students. Apparently if I set expectations, am consistent and model expected behaviors the disruptive students will behave appropriately. When they don’t it must be because I’m not doing these things. I also need to make sure I know what all of the students are doing, 100% of the time, which is tough to manage when so much time is spent working with small groups.

In my decades of teaching for FCPS I never had difficulty managing a class until just a few years ago (still pre-pandemic). I rarely needed to refer to the administrators, but when I did you could be sure I needed assistance. I’ve stopped doing that. It just creates too much trouble for me and draws the spotlight of criticism. Almost the entire day is disrupted in some way by outbursts, side conversations, arguments or students who are just off task in some way. I keep trying Responsive Classroom techniques, but if they work it is short-lived. I’ve always allowed for movement and I never have expected a silent classroom, but something has changed and each day is very difficult.

Exactly this. When I spoke to admin, they asked if I was using the chimes to quiet down the class. The f-ing chimes??!!? Sure, I use the chimes - and the kids completely ignore them. They.do.not.care. My voice is constantly hoarse from having to yell just to be heard - and I am not a yeller. If I'm trying to work with small groups, inevitably the troublemakers make it impossible for me to devote any time at all to the few kids who just want to learn and need my help. I'm constantly putting out metaphorical fires - spats between kids that are absurd - when I could be actually teaching them something. And apparently, all this bad behavior is my fault. No wonder teachers are leaving in droves. No doubt I'll be joining them if I can make it through this year.

Oh wow. This is my experience, 100%, down to the chime.

I’m retiring from full time teaching a few years earlier than I had planned.

Are chimes the latest fad? When I was teaching it was behavior contracts. You had to write out a document with a list of things the student would agree to do, and then have them sign it. Like signing a document saying they wouldn't stand up and start dancing on their chair in the middle of class was actually going to have any effect on a student who would do that in the first place. And it didn't. But it wasted a whole lot of your time writing that thing up.

For us the chime is part of being a responsive classroom school.

Same.
Theoretically the students are supposed to stop what they are doing and listen to the teacher.

Yes - “theoretically.” Have you actually tried this in practice? After the first few times, the kids ignore it completely. But do go on about “responsive classroom” nonsense.
DP

PP here.
Yes, I have actually tried it. Over and over. I teach an ES grade. That’s why I wrote “theoretically”. It works for the teachers in the demo videos.

Gotta push back on the RC hate. I've used the chime for 15 years now and it works in high and low income situations when its normed school wide. Sorry it doesn't work for you

I was a PP who thinks chimes are silly, but I loved RC when I was teaching. Chimes were not a thing, then. It must be newer. However, I had another silent method of getting attention (I am a quiet talker with a small voice and just don't have whatever it takes to yell), and it worked well up until 6th grade, when nothing works.

DP. Please share your method! I, too, am a quiet talker and I am constantly hoarse from having to raise my voice/yell. I need help.

I'll tell you, but I think to a certain extent a teacher needs to find his or her own way and rely more on instinct and common sense than on the advice of others.

My favorite method was to raise my hand into the air and just stand there and wait. When a student sees my hand up, he or she is supposed to stop talking and look at me and raise their own hand. Then everyone who sees that student does the same, and within a few seconds the whole class has caught on and all have raised their hands and are looking at the teacher. Then you have their attention and can say what you want. If people are whispering or still talking a little at any point, I'd just stop and wait. If I was feeling snarky, I'd stare right at the offenders and say softly, "I'll wait" and then everyone would turn and stare at them and...problem solved.

The key thing about that is that you can only do it when you really need their attention or when the volume has risen to an unbearable level in the room and you just need them to settle. I also kept a bell on my desk, and during reading groups would ring the bell when the noise level started to get too high for me to hear. Of course, you have to train students on both methods. And you can't resort to just yelling or doing something else if it's taking a bit too long.

The other important thing is that you are better off if you don't expect a silent classroom. As long as you can stand the noise level, chatting and socializing while more or less staying on task is a normal thing for children. A silent room is not desirable for me, and I believe it is unhealthy for young children. That doesn't mean it's so loud you can't hear the child you want to talk to, though. Hence the bell and the hand trick. You will need to use them every day, regularly - think of it as management, not a permanent solution. I mean, they're kids.

Other things that help are frequent breaks and brief periods of whole group instruction. If you are going to give instructions or talk for more than 10 minutes (or even 5), you will lose them. Keep that stuff brief. Keep lessons engaging, allow a lot of back and forth during whole group lessons, call on people all the time for opinions or input to keep them on their toes and paying attention. Don't expect them to sit quietly doing worksheets or listen to a 20 minute lecture.

Anyway, that's what worked for me, at least in the lower elementary grades. By the upper grades, especially 6, I had to mostly just keep the lessons going at a breakneck pace in order to distract them from thinking up new ways to cause trouble.

I just realized I forgot to add the most important thing - that there is no reward for following the system, and no punishment or threat of punishment for not doing so. You have to have the confidence that they WILL do it. It might just be an experience thing, but when I was a new teacher I was always afraid of losing control. Once that fear faded away and I just felt like I was in control, I didn't feel like I needed to threaten or bribe anymore. I just assumed they would do these things because we can all agree that reading group is impossible if it's too loud, and we can all agree that we don't like when teachers yell.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:This is a huge reason why public schools are failing. There are no consequences for poor behavior. I think class sizes play a role as well as staffing. We have full grade levels struggling due to the behavior of 5-8 kids. We have parents asking teachers how to parent their kids. It is a mess.

I think a lot of kids misbehave at school because they know they can get away with crap there that they wouldn’t at home. Teachers ‘ ability to deliver meaningful consequences has been stripped from teachers, and school administrators who are more interested in playing politician than in acknowledging their “in loco parentis” responsibilities, are doing little because they prioritize their own self-interest over the community for which they work.

THIS ^^. I'm one of the PPs who wound up quitting due to the horrendous behavior of some of my students. The principal and assistant principal looked at me like I had four heads when I brought the situation to their attention (they already knew about it, but continued to gaslight as if it was my fault). They refused to call the parents because they clearly didn't want the hassle of having to deal with them. I'm looking into teaching a private school, where kids troublemakers are not tolerated and teachers are supported.

There is so much gaslighting in education at every level. This is why teachers are done. Oh and the toxic positivity-nonsense.

what does that mean?

DP. Where I teach, it means something along the lines of "He wouldn't be failing/ refusing to come to school/ initiating fights with classmates/ calling you a f****** b**** if you tried a little harder to build a relationship and made your lesson plans more engaging. We know it's Thanksgiving Break but here's some PD to teach you how to do this more effectively!! Please remember to take time to connect with those around you and enjoy your time off!"

that makes absolutely no sense. you mean that's the messaging parents give you as a teacher???

DP. That makes perfect sense. This is the message teachers are given by both the parents and the administration - "It's YOUR fault if your students aren't engaged. It's YOUR fault if they're acting up and disrupting the class. What can YOU do to make this child behave better?" The PP nailed it.

DP, but I could have been the PP and written that post. Not only have I been told that I need to have a plan to support the disruptive students, but I also need to have and communicate my plans to support the students who are most affected (or have parents who are most vocal) by the disruptive students. Apparently if I set expectations, am consistent and model expected behaviors the disruptive students will behave appropriately. When they don’t it must be because I’m not doing these things. I also need to make sure I know what all of the students are doing, 100% of the time, which is tough to manage when so much time is spent working with small groups.

In my decades of teaching for FCPS I never had difficulty managing a class until just a few years ago (still pre-pandemic). I rarely needed to refer to the administrators, but when I did you could be sure I needed assistance. I’ve stopped doing that. It just creates too much trouble for me and draws the spotlight of criticism. Almost the entire day is disrupted in some way by outbursts, side conversations, arguments or students who are just off task in some way. I keep trying Responsive Classroom techniques, but if they work it is short-lived. I’ve always allowed for movement and I never have expected a silent classroom, but something has changed and each day is very difficult.

Exactly this. When I spoke to admin, they asked if I was using the chimes to quiet down the class. The f-ing chimes??!!? Sure, I use the chimes - and the kids completely ignore them. They.do.not.care. My voice is constantly hoarse from having to yell just to be heard - and I am not a yeller. If I'm trying to work with small groups, inevitably the troublemakers make it impossible for me to devote any time at all to the few kids who just want to learn and need my help. I'm constantly putting out metaphorical fires - spats between kids that are absurd - when I could be actually teaching them something. And apparently, all this bad behavior is my fault. No wonder teachers are leaving in droves. No doubt I'll be joining them if I can make it through this year.

Oh wow. This is my experience, 100%, down to the chime.

I’m retiring from full time teaching a few years earlier than I had planned.

Are chimes the latest fad? When I was teaching it was behavior contracts. You had to write out a document with a list of things the student would agree to do, and then have them sign it. Like signing a document saying they wouldn't stand up and start dancing on their chair in the middle of class was actually going to have any effect on a student who would do that in the first place. And it didn't. But it wasted a whole lot of your time writing that thing up.

For us the chime is part of being a responsive classroom school.

Same.
Theoretically the students are supposed to stop what they are doing and listen to the teacher.

Yes - “theoretically.” Have you actually tried this in practice? After the first few times, the kids ignore it completely. But do go on about “responsive classroom” nonsense.
DP

PP here.
Yes, I have actually tried it. Over and over. I teach an ES grade. That’s why I wrote “theoretically”. It works for the teachers in the demo videos.

Gotta push back on the RC hate. I've used the chime for 15 years now and it works in high and low income situations when its normed school wide. Sorry it doesn't work for you

I was a PP who thinks chimes are silly, but I loved RC when I was teaching. Chimes were not a thing, then. It must be newer. However, I had another silent method of getting attention (I am a quiet talker with a small voice and just don't have whatever it takes to yell), and it worked well up until 6th grade, when nothing works.

DP. Please share your method! I, too, am a quiet talker and I am constantly hoarse from having to raise my voice/yell. I need help.

I'll tell you, but I think to a certain extent a teacher needs to find his or her own way and rely more on instinct and common sense than on the advice of others.

My favorite method was to raise my hand into the air and just stand there and wait. When a student sees my hand up, he or she is supposed to stop talking and look at me and raise their own hand. Then everyone who sees that student does the same, and within a few seconds the whole class has caught on and all have raised their hands and are looking at the teacher. Then you have their attention and can say what you want. If people are whispering or still talking a little at any point, I'd just stop and wait. If I was feeling snarky, I'd stare right at the offenders and say softly, "I'll wait" and then everyone would turn and stare at them and...problem solved.

The key thing about that is that you can only do it when you really need their attention or when the volume has risen to an unbearable level in the room and you just need them to settle. I also kept a bell on my desk, and during reading groups would ring the bell when the noise level started to get too high for me to hear. Of course, you have to train students on both methods. And you can't resort to just yelling or doing something else if it's taking a bit too long.

The other important thing is that you are better off if you don't expect a silent classroom. As long as you can stand the noise level, chatting and socializing while more or less staying on task is a normal thing for children. A silent room is not desirable for me, and I believe it is unhealthy for young children. That doesn't mean it's so loud you can't hear the child you want to talk to, though. Hence the bell and the hand trick. You will need to use them every day, regularly - think of it as management, not a permanent solution. I mean, they're kids.

Other things that help are frequent breaks and brief periods of whole group instruction. If you are going to give instructions or talk for more than 10 minutes (or even 5), you will lose them. Keep that stuff brief. Keep lessons engaging, allow a lot of back and forth during whole group lessons, call on people all the time for opinions or input to keep them on their toes and paying attention. Don't expect them to sit quietly doing worksheets or listen to a 20 minute lecture.

Anyway, that's what worked for me, at least in the lower elementary grades. By the upper grades, especially 6, I had to mostly just keep the lessons going at a breakneck pace in order to distract them from thinking up new ways to cause trouble.

Some of the girls in your class probably know this method from Girl Scouts, it's a pretty standard way to get our girls to quiet down and listen.

[Anonymous]

It is almost always at least partially the principal’s fault. My school had VETERAN FCPS teachers who transferred to our school and couldn’t make it to December because of how awful our principal (and most of our admin were). No, it doesn’t em like they are ever going to get any chats from high ups about why their school has a 33 percent attrition rate though.

[Anonymous]

pp:
If it is all new teachers, then it isn’t as much on the principal, but the buck stop here and they need to support new educators.

When teachers who have been teaching for at lest 5 years quitting left and right, then yea

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:What I would love is a teacher who is brave enough to write an expose of FCPS. Maybe someone who is planning to quit anyway. I really don't think the general public has any clue what it's actually like these days in the "responsive classroom."

You really, really don’t want to know what goes on behind the curtain. Sometimes ignorance really is bliss.

I know, but if the public found out, hopefully there would be an outcry and change. For starters, a completely different school board.

I don’t know. I feel like the whole management process needs to change with more teaching teachers having leadership roles or at least vetoes or “votes.” Yeah, rigged surveys don’t count. So many of the people we work for are so incompetent, it kills me. Too many Ed.D programs are 1. Nowhere near as rigorous as they should be and 2. are churning out some class act idiots.

This! I left teaching in public schools after 15 years of THIS! I couldn’t handle working for people whose entire purpose seemed to be making my job harder and less effective.

I now work in a private where administrative roles are shared among practicing teachers. It’s heaven. No more listening to “the latest and greatest” idea coming from someone who left the stress of the classroom.

DP. This sounds fantastic.

I’m the PP. I would love to see US education completely change to the model above.

If you’re a good teacher, you shouldn’t be leaving the field to become an administrator. We need you in the classroom! That way the students still benefit from your teaching and newer teachers can observe your methods. If you’re a poor teacher, you also shouldn’t become an administrator. I’ve been in education long enough to see several poor teachers transfer to admin, where they can do significant damage through dreadful observations and lack of vision.

I doubt it would cost more to switch to this model (which is already used in other countries). Admin salaries are much higher. Use the money saved there to give the lead teachers a pay boost for the extra administrative work they’ll do and provide them with extra planning time.

Ultimately, everybody wins.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What I would love is a teacher who is brave enough to write an expose of FCPS. Maybe someone who is planning to quit anyway. I really don't think the general public has any clue what it's actually like these days in the "responsive classroom."

You really, really don’t want to know what goes on behind the curtain. Sometimes ignorance really is bliss.

I know, but if the public found out, hopefully there would be an outcry and change. For starters, a completely different school board.

I don’t know. I feel like the whole management process needs to change with more teaching teachers having leadership roles or at least vetoes or “votes.” Yeah, rigged surveys don’t count. So many of the people we work for are so incompetent, it kills me. Too many Ed.D programs are 1. Nowhere near as rigorous as they should be and 2. are churning out some class act idiots.

This! I left teaching in public schools after 15 years of THIS! I couldn’t handle working for people whose entire purpose seemed to be making my job harder and less effective.

I now work in a private where administrative roles are shared among practicing teachers. It’s heaven. No more listening to “the latest and greatest” idea coming from someone who left the stress of the classroom.

DP. This sounds fantastic.

I’m the PP. I would love to see US education completely change to the model above.

If you’re a good teacher, you shouldn’t be leaving the field to become an administrator. We need you in the classroom! That way the students still benefit from your teaching and newer teachers can observe your methods. If you’re a poor teacher, you also shouldn’t become an administrator. I’ve been in education long enough to see several poor teachers transfer to admin, where they can do significant damage through dreadful observations and lack of vision.

I doubt it would cost more to switch to this model (which is already used in other countries). Admin salaries are much higher. Use the money saved there to give the lead teachers a pay boost for the extra administrative work they’ll do and provide them with extra planning time.

Ultimately, everybody wins.

Disagree. Most entry-level admin jobs don’t have a significantly higher hourly salary… they are higher because they work a full 12 months and need to be compensated for an extra 50+ work days. After school commitments for APs and principals are also significant in a way that they are not for teachers. While I agree that teachers need to be paid more, expecting that we’ll somehow attract BETTER administrators by offering less pay is just fantasy land. If anything, we should be paying them MORE (FCPS has lowest admin salary of all surrounding counties) to increase our candidate pool and be able to attract the best talent!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is a huge reason why public schools are failing. There are no consequences for poor behavior. I think class sizes play a role as well as staffing. We have full grade levels struggling due to the behavior of 5-8 kids. We have parents asking teachers how to parent their kids. It is a mess.

I think a lot of kids misbehave at school because they know they can get away with crap there that they wouldn’t at home. Teachers ‘ ability to deliver meaningful consequences has been stripped from teachers, and school administrators who are more interested in playing politician than in acknowledging their “in loco parentis” responsibilities, are doing little because they prioritize their own self-interest over the community for which they work.

THIS ^^. I'm one of the PPs who wound up quitting due to the horrendous behavior of some of my students. The principal and assistant principal looked at me like I had four heads when I brought the situation to their attention (they already knew about it, but continued to gaslight as if it was my fault). They refused to call the parents because they clearly didn't want the hassle of having to deal with them. I'm looking into teaching a private school, where kids troublemakers are not tolerated and teachers are supported.

There is so much gaslighting in education at every level. This is why teachers are done. Oh and the toxic positivity-nonsense.

what does that mean?

DP. Where I teach, it means something along the lines of "He wouldn't be failing/ refusing to come to school/ initiating fights with classmates/ calling you a f****** b**** if you tried a little harder to build a relationship and made your lesson plans more engaging. We know it's Thanksgiving Break but here's some PD to teach you how to do this more effectively!! Please remember to take time to connect with those around you and enjoy your time off!"

that makes absolutely no sense. you mean that's the messaging parents give you as a teacher???

DP. That makes perfect sense. This is the message teachers are given by both the parents and the administration - "It's YOUR fault if your students aren't engaged. It's YOUR fault if they're acting up and disrupting the class. What can YOU do to make this child behave better?" The PP nailed it.

DP, but I could have been the PP and written that post. Not only have I been told that I need to have a plan to support the disruptive students, but I also need to have and communicate my plans to support the students who are most affected (or have parents who are most vocal) by the disruptive students. Apparently if I set expectations, am consistent and model expected behaviors the disruptive students will behave appropriately. When they don’t it must be because I’m not doing these things. I also need to make sure I know what all of the students are doing, 100% of the time, which is tough to manage when so much time is spent working with small groups.

In my decades of teaching for FCPS I never had difficulty managing a class until just a few years ago (still pre-pandemic). I rarely needed to refer to the administrators, but when I did you could be sure I needed assistance. I’ve stopped doing that. It just creates too much trouble for me and draws the spotlight of criticism. Almost the entire day is disrupted in some way by outbursts, side conversations, arguments or students who are just off task in some way. I keep trying Responsive Classroom techniques, but if they work it is short-lived. I’ve always allowed for movement and I never have expected a silent classroom, but something has changed and each day is very difficult.

Exactly this. When I spoke to admin, they asked if I was using the chimes to quiet down the class. The f-ing chimes??!!? Sure, I use the chimes - and the kids completely ignore them. They.do.not.care. My voice is constantly hoarse from having to yell just to be heard - and I am not a yeller. If I'm trying to work with small groups, inevitably the troublemakers make it impossible for me to devote any time at all to the few kids who just want to learn and need my help. I'm constantly putting out metaphorical fires - spats between kids that are absurd - when I could be actually teaching them something. And apparently, all this bad behavior is my fault. No wonder teachers are leaving in droves. No doubt I'll be joining them if I can make it through this year.

I just popped on this thread and read the last 10 posts. Oh my goodness! Teachers, I feel so bad fir you that you are desling with this kind of hell. Damn. No one wants to work under those kinds of circumstances. It makes me very angry that good teachers are being run out of the profession.

Question: instead of leaving teaching altogether, would your job change for the better if you moved to a different/higher income school? I ask b/c my kids (HS) do not see that kind of disruption and disrespect in their classes at one of the HS that has a smaller number of needy kids. I know that in the HS where we used to live (also FCPS, but more diverse), I heard multiple reports that you MUST avoid the reg level classes b/c the the majority of kids in them don't want to learn, and they literally harass and terrorize the teachers. In some cases, running multiple teachers out by xmas break. So, my impression is that the job can vary significantly in different high schools.

Could you change schools and stay in the profession?

That claim is far overblown. Poorer schools in FCPS have their own unique issues but they are absolutely not the hellscape they are slandered to be. Most of my colleagues who are ESOL teachers love working with that demographic and would not consider teaching outside of ESOL. Of course, everyone's personal experience is different.

You can check posted vacancies for yourself as proof that the diverse schools aren't disproportionately in need of teachers. MVHS, Justice, and Falls Church don't even have a single vacancy as of this moment.

I've said this 100 times on this board and will say it again. I was an ESOL teacher in a high poverty school. The problem was not the kids and not the parents. I loved my students - or at least most of them. The problem was the county and the administration.

And that is YOUR experience, sometimes the parents and/or kids’ behavior is why some teacher dread going into work. One bad parent can ruin the year.

I've never in all my many years of teaching seen a bad parent ruin anyone's year. A kid, yes. But in both cases, it is the administration that is supposed to provide the needed support to the teacher in order to prevent that from happening. Parents can't do anything to teachers unless admins let them. A kid that ruins your whole year probably doesn't belong in gen ed, and that's on the admins.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is a huge reason why public schools are failing. There are no consequences for poor behavior. I think class sizes play a role as well as staffing. We have full grade levels struggling due to the behavior of 5-8 kids. We have parents asking teachers how to parent their kids. It is a mess.

I think a lot of kids misbehave at school because they know they can get away with crap there that they wouldn’t at home. Teachers ‘ ability to deliver meaningful consequences has been stripped from teachers, and school administrators who are more interested in playing politician than in acknowledging their “in loco parentis” responsibilities, are doing little because they prioritize their own self-interest over the community for which they work.

THIS ^^. I'm one of the PPs who wound up quitting due to the horrendous behavior of some of my students. The principal and assistant principal looked at me like I had four heads when I brought the situation to their attention (they already knew about it, but continued to gaslight as if it was my fault). They refused to call the parents because they clearly didn't want the hassle of having to deal with them. I'm looking into teaching a private school, where kids troublemakers are not tolerated and teachers are supported.

There is so much gaslighting in education at every level. This is why teachers are done. Oh and the toxic positivity-nonsense.

what does that mean?

DP. Where I teach, it means something along the lines of "He wouldn't be failing/ refusing to come to school/ initiating fights with classmates/ calling you a f****** b**** if you tried a little harder to build a relationship and made your lesson plans more engaging. We know it's Thanksgiving Break but here's some PD to teach you how to do this more effectively!! Please remember to take time to connect with those around you and enjoy your time off!"

that makes absolutely no sense. you mean that's the messaging parents give you as a teacher???

DP. That makes perfect sense. This is the message teachers are given by both the parents and the administration - "It's YOUR fault if your students aren't engaged. It's YOUR fault if they're acting up and disrupting the class. What can YOU do to make this child behave better?" The PP nailed it.

DP, but I could have been the PP and written that post. Not only have I been told that I need to have a plan to support the disruptive students, but I also need to have and communicate my plans to support the students who are most affected (or have parents who are most vocal) by the disruptive students. Apparently if I set expectations, am consistent and model expected behaviors the disruptive students will behave appropriately. When they don’t it must be because I’m not doing these things. I also need to make sure I know what all of the students are doing, 100% of the time, which is tough to manage when so much time is spent working with small groups.

In my decades of teaching for FCPS I never had difficulty managing a class until just a few years ago (still pre-pandemic). I rarely needed to refer to the administrators, but when I did you could be sure I needed assistance. I’ve stopped doing that. It just creates too much trouble for me and draws the spotlight of criticism. Almost the entire day is disrupted in some way by outbursts, side conversations, arguments or students who are just off task in some way. I keep trying Responsive Classroom techniques, but if they work it is short-lived. I’ve always allowed for movement and I never have expected a silent classroom, but something has changed and each day is very difficult.

Exactly this. When I spoke to admin, they asked if I was using the chimes to quiet down the class. The f-ing chimes??!!? Sure, I use the chimes - and the kids completely ignore them. They.do.not.care. My voice is constantly hoarse from having to yell just to be heard - and I am not a yeller. If I'm trying to work with small groups, inevitably the troublemakers make it impossible for me to devote any time at all to the few kids who just want to learn and need my help. I'm constantly putting out metaphorical fires - spats between kids that are absurd - when I could be actually teaching them something. And apparently, all this bad behavior is my fault. No wonder teachers are leaving in droves. No doubt I'll be joining them if I can make it through this year.

I just popped on this thread and read the last 10 posts. Oh my goodness! Teachers, I feel so bad fir you that you are desling with this kind of hell. Damn. No one wants to work under those kinds of circumstances. It makes me very angry that good teachers are being run out of the profession.

Question: instead of leaving teaching altogether, would your job change for the better if you moved to a different/higher income school? I ask b/c my kids (HS) do not see that kind of disruption and disrespect in their classes at one of the HS that has a smaller number of needy kids. I know that in the HS where we used to live (also FCPS, but more diverse), I heard multiple reports that you MUST avoid the reg level classes b/c the the majority of kids in them don't want to learn, and they literally harass and terrorize the teachers. In some cases, running multiple teachers out by xmas break. So, my impression is that the job can vary significantly in different high schools.

Could you change schools and stay in the profession?

That claim is far overblown. Poorer schools in FCPS have their own unique issues but they are absolutely not the hellscape they are slandered to be. Most of my colleagues who are ESOL teachers love working with that demographic and would not consider teaching outside of ESOL. Of course, everyone's personal experience is different.

You can check posted vacancies for yourself as proof that the diverse schools aren't disproportionately in need of teachers. MVHS, Justice, and Falls Church don't even have a single vacancy as of this moment.

What I wrote is 100% true. And it did not involve MVHS, Justice or Falls Church. Those schools have a preponderance of poor kids. I was speaking about the next tier of schools where there is a substantial number of non-academically-interested kids as well as a population of normal MC/UMC kids. In one case a friend was able to get her kid out of reg math and into the honors section mid year b/c of the super bad behavior in the class running off several teachers by xmas. In another case, there were literally 2 kids in a foreign lang class (no honors is available) who wanted to actually learn and the teacher told those two to sit up front and she would teach them while the others would continue to mess around and be harassing and rude. The teacher washed her hands of the rest of the class. There are other examples. But the bottom line is that you AVOID the regular level classes in that school. Where my kids go now, they can take regular level classes where honors aren't offered (i.e. foreign lang) or where they don't want to take honors (b/c it's not an area of stregth), and they do not have the "Lord of the Flies" experience. And there are NO vacancies at the beginning of each year (except maybe one spec. ed teacher opening)... so I presume that teachers want to be there.

The bigger point is that I really sympathize with teachers who are facing this kind of thing on a regular basis. I cannot imagine having to called names/profanity or threatened at work. I was only hoping there was some way out for those teachers so that they could continue to teach kids who WANT TO LEARN and who have the self-control to behave normally. I value good teachers and don't want to lose them. I think my last kid will be fine given the teacher (and peers) he has in his HS. And he only has 2.5 yrs left. Then I'm out of FCPS for good. As a home-owner and tax-payer, and supporter of public schools, I'd like Fairfax schools to be successful. Honestly, though, I'm worried about the future of our community and the future of FCPS if teachers are being driven away. And I can't blame them.

Just a word on vacancies - you can't rely on what's posted online. I worked in a school that always had vacancies, and they were rarely advertised. When they were, it was often long after the position had remained unfilled at the beginning of the year. I never could figure out whether it was some kind of lag in the posting, procrastination by the principal, or some sleight of hand related to staffing and funding.