Reply to If teachers are leaving left and right, is it the principal's fault?

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Reply to "If teachers are leaving left and right, is it the principal's fault?"

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[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]This is a huge reason why public schools are failing. There are no consequences for poor behavior. I think class sizes play a role as well as staffing. We have full grade levels struggling due to the behavior of 5-8 kids. We have parents asking teachers how to parent their kids. It is a mess. [/quote]

I think a lot of kids misbehave at school because they know they can get away with crap there that they wouldn’t at home.  Teachers ‘ ability to deliver meaningful consequences has been stripped from teachers, and school administrators who are more interested in playing politician than in acknowledging their  “in loco parentis” responsibilities, are doing little because they prioritize their own self-interest over the community for which they work.  [/quote]

THIS ^^.  I'm one of the PPs who wound up quitting due to the horrendous behavior of some of my students.  The principal and assistant principal looked at me like I had four heads when I brought the situation to their attention (they already knew about it, but continued to gaslight as if it was my fault).  They refused to call the parents because they clearly didn't want the hassle of having to deal with them.  I'm looking into teaching a private school, where kids troublemakers are not tolerated and teachers are supported.[/quote]

There is so much gaslighting in education at every level. This is why teachers are done. Oh and the [b]toxic positivity-nonsense[/b].[/quote]

what does that mean?[/quote]

DP. Where I teach, it means something along the lines of "He wouldn't be failing/ refusing to come to school/ initiating fights with classmates/ calling you a f****** b**** if you tried a little harder to build a relationship and made your lesson plans more engaging. We know it's Thanksgiving Break but here's some PD to teach you how to do this more effectively!! Please remember to take time to connect with those around you and enjoy your time off!"[/quote]

that makes absolutely no sense. you mean that's the messaging parents give you as a teacher???[/quote]

DP.  That makes perfect sense.  This is the message teachers are given by both the parents and the administration - "It's YOUR fault if your students aren't engaged.  It's YOUR fault if they're acting up and disrupting the class.  What can YOU do to make this child behave better?"  The PP nailed it.
[/quote]

DP, but I could have been the PP and written that post. Not only have I been told that I need to have a plan to support the disruptive students, but I also need to have and communicate my plans to support the students who are most affected (or have parents who are most vocal) by the disruptive students. Apparently if I set expectations, am consistent and model expected behaviors the disruptive students will behave appropriately. When they don’t it must be because I’m not doing these things. I also need to make sure I know what all of the students are doing, 100% of the time, which is tough to manage when so much time is spent working with small groups.

In my decades of teaching for FCPS I never had difficulty managing a class until just a few years ago (still pre-pandemic). I rarely needed to refer to the administrators, but when I did you could be sure I needed assistance. I’ve stopped doing that. It just creates too much trouble for me and draws the spotlight of criticism. Almost the entire day is disrupted in some way by outbursts, side conversations, arguments or students who are just off task in some way. I keep trying Responsive Classroom techniques, but if they work it is short-lived. I’ve always allowed for movement and I never have expected a silent classroom, but something has changed and each day is very difficult. [/quote]

Exactly this.  When I spoke to admin, they asked if I was using the chimes to quiet down the class.  The f-ing chimes??!!?  Sure, I use the chimes - and the kids completely ignore them.  They.do.not.care.  My voice is constantly hoarse from having to yell just to be heard - and I am not a yeller.  If I'm trying to work with small groups, inevitably the troublemakers make it impossible for me to devote any time at all to the few kids who just want to learn and need my help.  I'm constantly putting out metaphorical fires - spats between kids that are absurd - when I could be actually teaching them something.  And apparently, all this bad behavior is my fault.  No wonder teachers are leaving in droves.  No doubt I'll be joining them if I can make it through this year.[/quote]

Oh wow. This is my experience, 100%, down to the chime.

I’m retiring from full time teaching a few years earlier than I had planned.

[/quote]

Are chimes the latest fad?  When I was teaching it was behavior contracts.  You had to write out a document with a list of things the student would agree to do, and then have them sign it.  Like signing a document saying they wouldn't stand up and start dancing on their chair in the middle of class was actually going to have any effect on a student who would do that in the first place.  And it didn't.  But it wasted a whole lot of your time writing that thing up.[/quote]

For us the chime is part of being a responsive classroom school. [/quote]

Same.
Theoretically the students are supposed to stop what they are doing and listen to the teacher. [/quote]

Yes - “theoretically.”  Have you actually tried this in practice?  After the first few times, the kids ignore it completely.  But do go on about “responsive classroom” nonsense.   :roll:  :roll: 
DP[/quote]

PP here.
Yes, I have actually tried it. Over and over. I teach an ES grade. That’s why I wrote “theoretically”. It works for the teachers in the demo videos.

[/quote]

Gotta push back on the RC hate. I've used the chime for 15 years now and it works in high and low income situations when its normed school wide. Sorry it doesn't work for you[/quote]

I was a PP who thinks chimes are silly, but I loved RC when I was teaching.  Chimes were not a thing, then.  It must be newer.  However, I had another silent method of getting attention (I am a quiet talker with a small voice and just don't have whatever it takes to yell), and it worked well up until 6th grade, when nothing works.[/quote]

DP.  Please share your method!  I, too, am a quiet talker and I am constantly hoarse from having to raise my voice/yell.  I need help.[/quote]

I'll tell you, but I think to a certain extent a teacher needs to find his or her own way and rely more on instinct and common sense than on the advice of others.

My favorite method was to raise my hand into the air and just stand there and wait.  When a student sees my hand up, he or she is supposed to stop talking and look at me and raise their own hand. Then everyone who sees that student does the same, and within a few seconds the whole class has caught on and all have raised their hands and are looking at the teacher.  Then you have their attention and can say what you want.  If people are whispering or still talking a little at any point, I'd just stop and wait.  If I was feeling snarky, I'd stare right at the offenders and say softly, "I'll wait" and then everyone would turn and stare at them and...problem solved.

The key thing about that is that you can only do it when you really need their attention or when the volume has risen to an unbearable level in the room and you just need them to settle.  I also kept a bell on my desk, and during reading groups would ring the bell when the noise level started to get too high for me to hear.  Of course, you have to train students on both methods.  And you can't resort to just yelling or doing something else if it's taking a bit too long.

The other important thing is that you are better off if you don't expect a silent classroom.  As long as you can stand the noise level, chatting and socializing while more or less staying on task is a normal thing for children.  A silent room is not desirable for me, and I believe it is unhealthy for young children.  That doesn't mean it's so loud you can't hear the child you want to talk to, though.  Hence the bell and the hand trick.  You will need to use them every day, regularly - think of it as management, not a permanent solution.  I mean, they're kids.

Other things that help are frequent breaks and brief periods of whole group instruction.  If you are going to give instructions or talk for more than 10 minutes (or even 5), you will lose them.  Keep that stuff brief.  Keep lessons engaging, allow a lot of back and forth during whole group lessons, call on people all the time for opinions or input to keep them on their toes and paying attention.  Don't expect them to sit quietly doing worksheets or listen to a 20 minute lecture.

Anyway, that's what worked for me, at least in the lower elementary grades.  By the upper grades, especially 6, I had to mostly just keep the lessons going at a breakneck pace in order to distract them from thinking up new ways to cause trouble.[/quote]

I just realized I forgot to add the most important thing - that there is no reward for following the system, and no punishment or threat of punishment for not doing so.  You have to have the confidence that they WILL do it.  It might just be an experience thing, but when I was a new teacher I was always afraid of losing control.  Once that fear faded away and I just felt like I was in control, I didn't feel like I needed to threaten or bribe anymore. I just assumed they would do these things because we can all agree that reading group is impossible if it's too loud, and we can all agree that we don't like when teachers yell.  [/quote]

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