If teachers are leaving left and right, is it the principal's fault?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:What I would love is a teacher who is brave enough to write an expose of FCPS. Maybe someone who is planning to quit anyway. I really don't think the general public has any clue what it's actually like these days in the "responsive classroom."

You really, really don’t want to know what goes on behind the curtain. Sometimes ignorance really is bliss.

I know, but if the public found out, hopefully there would be an outcry and change. For starters, a completely different school board.

I don’t know. I feel like the whole management process needs to change with more teaching teachers having leadership roles or at least vetoes or “votes.” Yeah, rigged surveys don’t count. So many of the people we work for are so incompetent, it kills me. Too many Ed.D programs are 1. Nowhere near as rigorous as they should be and 2. are churning out some class act idiots.

This! I left teaching in public schools after 15 years of THIS! I couldn’t handle working for people whose entire purpose seemed to be making my job harder and less effective.

I now work in a private where administrative roles are shared among practicing teachers. It’s heaven. No more listening to “the latest and greatest” idea coming from someone who left the stress of the classroom.

DP. This sounds fantastic.

I’m the PP. I would love to see US education completely change to the model above.

If you’re a good teacher, you shouldn’t be leaving the field to become an administrator. We need you in the classroom! That way the students still benefit from your teaching and newer teachers can observe your methods. If you’re a poor teacher, you also shouldn’t become an administrator. I’ve been in education long enough to see several poor teachers transfer to admin, where they can do significant damage through dreadful observations and lack of vision.

I doubt it would cost more to switch to this model (which is already used in other countries). Admin salaries are much higher. Use the money saved there to give the lead teachers a pay boost for the extra administrative work they’ll do and provide them with extra planning time.

Ultimately, everybody wins.

Disagree. Most entry-level admin jobs don’t have a significantly higher hourly salary… they are higher because they work a full 12 months and need to be compensated for an extra 50+ work days. After school commitments for APs and principals are also significant in a way that they are not for teachers. While I agree that teachers need to be paid more, expecting that we’ll somehow attract BETTER administrators by offering less pay is just fantasy land. If anything, we should be paying them MORE (FCPS has lowest admin salary of all surrounding counties) to increase our candidate pool and be able to attract the best talent!

I’m the PP. I think we’re approaching this from different directions. I think we should completely disband school-based admin. There’s no need to attract best talent because it’s already in the building, in the form of master teachers who are intimately familiar with what students need. Once an administrator steps out of the classroom, they stop gaining teaching experience. They aren’t as familiar with how students change, how appropriate instruction methods change, etc.

As for the extra work, teachers are already doing it. I left my school at 7:30pm the other day, long after admin. I attend (and work at) plays, sporting events, etc. I’m just not paid for that since it’s considered “volunteer” hours. Summer hours? Fine. I’m already working by rewriting curricula, etc. I just don’t get paid.

This is a tried and true model. Lead teachers run the school. They perform all administrative duties while being compensated with additional pay and planning time. If it helps, think of it as admin that still keep one foot in teaching.

I don’t want to be an administrator because I want to stay in the classroom. This model would give great teachers a way to move up the ladder without leaving teaching entirely.

- home sick (hence the post)

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:This is a huge reason why public schools are failing. There are no consequences for poor behavior. I think class sizes play a role as well as staffing. We have full grade levels struggling due to the behavior of 5-8 kids. We have parents asking teachers how to parent their kids. It is a mess.

I think a lot of kids misbehave at school because they know they can get away with crap there that they wouldn’t at home. Teachers ‘ ability to deliver meaningful consequences has been stripped from teachers, and school administrators who are more interested in playing politician than in acknowledging their “in loco parentis” responsibilities, are doing little because they prioritize their own self-interest over the community for which they work.

THIS ^^. I'm one of the PPs who wound up quitting due to the horrendous behavior of some of my students. The principal and assistant principal looked at me like I had four heads when I brought the situation to their attention (they already knew about it, but continued to gaslight as if it was my fault). They refused to call the parents because they clearly didn't want the hassle of having to deal with them. I'm looking into teaching a private school, where kids troublemakers are not tolerated and teachers are supported.

There is so much gaslighting in education at every level. This is why teachers are done. Oh and the toxic positivity-nonsense.

what does that mean?

DP. Where I teach, it means something along the lines of "He wouldn't be failing/ refusing to come to school/ initiating fights with classmates/ calling you a f****** b**** if you tried a little harder to build a relationship and made your lesson plans more engaging. We know it's Thanksgiving Break but here's some PD to teach you how to do this more effectively!! Please remember to take time to connect with those around you and enjoy your time off!"

that makes absolutely no sense. you mean that's the messaging parents give you as a teacher???

DP. That makes perfect sense. This is the message teachers are given by both the parents and the administration - "It's YOUR fault if your students aren't engaged. It's YOUR fault if they're acting up and disrupting the class. What can YOU do to make this child behave better?" The PP nailed it.

DP, but I could have been the PP and written that post. Not only have I been told that I need to have a plan to support the disruptive students, but I also need to have and communicate my plans to support the students who are most affected (or have parents who are most vocal) by the disruptive students. Apparently if I set expectations, am consistent and model expected behaviors the disruptive students will behave appropriately. When they don’t it must be because I’m not doing these things. I also need to make sure I know what all of the students are doing, 100% of the time, which is tough to manage when so much time is spent working with small groups.

In my decades of teaching for FCPS I never had difficulty managing a class until just a few years ago (still pre-pandemic). I rarely needed to refer to the administrators, but when I did you could be sure I needed assistance. I’ve stopped doing that. It just creates too much trouble for me and draws the spotlight of criticism. Almost the entire day is disrupted in some way by outbursts, side conversations, arguments or students who are just off task in some way. I keep trying Responsive Classroom techniques, but if they work it is short-lived. I’ve always allowed for movement and I never have expected a silent classroom, but something has changed and each day is very difficult.

Exactly this. When I spoke to admin, they asked if I was using the chimes to quiet down the class. The f-ing chimes??!!? Sure, I use the chimes - and the kids completely ignore them. They.do.not.care. My voice is constantly hoarse from having to yell just to be heard - and I am not a yeller. If I'm trying to work with small groups, inevitably the troublemakers make it impossible for me to devote any time at all to the few kids who just want to learn and need my help. I'm constantly putting out metaphorical fires - spats between kids that are absurd - when I could be actually teaching them something. And apparently, all this bad behavior is my fault. No wonder teachers are leaving in droves. No doubt I'll be joining them if I can make it through this year.

I just popped on this thread and read the last 10 posts. Oh my goodness! Teachers, I feel so bad fir you that you are desling with this kind of hell. Damn. No one wants to work under those kinds of circumstances. It makes me very angry that good teachers are being run out of the profession.

Question: instead of leaving teaching altogether, would your job change for the better if you moved to a different/higher income school? I ask b/c my kids (HS) do not see that kind of disruption and disrespect in their classes at one of the HS that has a smaller number of needy kids. I know that in the HS where we used to live (also FCPS, but more diverse), I heard multiple reports that you MUST avoid the reg level classes b/c the the majority of kids in them don't want to learn, and they literally harass and terrorize the teachers. In some cases, running multiple teachers out by xmas break. So, my impression is that the job can vary significantly in different high schools.

Could you change schools and stay in the profession?

That claim is far overblown. Poorer schools in FCPS have their own unique issues but they are absolutely not the hellscape they are slandered to be. Most of my colleagues who are ESOL teachers love working with that demographic and would not consider teaching outside of ESOL. Of course, everyone's personal experience is different.

You can check posted vacancies for yourself as proof that the diverse schools aren't disproportionately in need of teachers. MVHS, Justice, and Falls Church don't even have a single vacancy as of this moment.

What I wrote is 100% true. And it did not involve MVHS, Justice or Falls Church. Those schools have a preponderance of poor kids. I was speaking about the next tier of schools where there is a substantial number of non-academically-interested kids as well as a population of normal MC/UMC kids. In one case a friend was able to get her kid out of reg math and into the honors section mid year b/c of the super bad behavior in the class running off several teachers by xmas. In another case, there were literally 2 kids in a foreign lang class (no honors is available) who wanted to actually learn and the teacher told those two to sit up front and she would teach them while the others would continue to mess around and be harassing and rude. The teacher washed her hands of the rest of the class. There are other examples. But the bottom line is that you AVOID the regular level classes in that school. Where my kids go now, they can take regular level classes where honors aren't offered (i.e. foreign lang) or where they don't want to take honors (b/c it's not an area of stregth), and they do not have the "Lord of the Flies" experience. And there are NO vacancies at the beginning of each year (except maybe one spec. ed teacher opening)... so I presume that teachers want to be there.

The bigger point is that I really sympathize with teachers who are facing this kind of thing on a regular basis. I cannot imagine having to called names/profanity or threatened at work. I was only hoping there was some way out for those teachers so that they could continue to teach kids who WANT TO LEARN and who have the self-control to behave normally. I value good teachers and don't want to lose them. I think my last kid will be fine given the teacher (and peers) he has in his HS. And he only has 2.5 yrs left. Then I'm out of FCPS for good. As a home-owner and tax-payer, and supporter of public schools, I'd like Fairfax schools to be successful. Honestly, though, I'm worried about the future of our community and the future of FCPS if teachers are being driven away. And I can't blame them.

Just a word on vacancies - you can't rely on what's posted online. I worked in a school that always had vacancies, and they were rarely advertised. When they were, it was often long after the position had remained unfilled at the beginning of the year. I never could figure out whether it was some kind of lag in the posting, procrastination by the principal, or some sleight of hand related to staffing and funding.

Fair enough... but I usually hear at the first PTA mtg in early Sept. directly from the principal's mouth that they either have no vacancies or they still need just one special ed teacher or other teacher b/c they ended up getting a few more students than they expected and the school now qualifies for one more position. I've been going to these meetings for the last... about 6 yrs. I don't think the principal would lie. But, I'm not omniscient.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What I would love is a teacher who is brave enough to write an expose of FCPS. Maybe someone who is planning to quit anyway. I really don't think the general public has any clue what it's actually like these days in the "responsive classroom."

I've been expose-ing fcps on this board since I quit 10 years ago. It's pointless. The system is so broken there. Parents have no idea, and the county likes it that way. If you read through these forums you'll see many many teachers posting the same things I have been saying. It's not a secret. But it's so bureaucratic that nothing can be changed. The whole top-down structure where all the decisions are made by people who are basically politicians and haven't been in a classroom in 30 years, and teachers are powerless.

Not sure why you are targeting RC though - it's just one of a million programs that gets adopted for a while and then replaced with something new a few years later. It's one of the better programs FCPS has, actually.

I'm targeting RC because it's a trendy program that simply doesn't work. Kids with behavioral issues continue to disrupt the class because they know there are no consequences. Kids who really want to learn continue being ignored while the teacher deals with the troublemakers. Rinse and repeat. RC does no one any favors. Troublemakers should be immediately dealt with, with real consequences (missing recess, actually getting yelled at by the principal, parents called, etc.). Babying them along and trying to relate to them emotionally is a waste of time for everyone. Teachers shouldn't be expected to devote their time to soothing the troublemakers back into good behavior (which does not work) at the expense of the other kids who simply want to learn.

Parent of a rule following child who loves to learn here - my kid doesn't want you yelling at her peers, even if they're being a pain in the butt. She had a teacher like that and was terrified of her. It was her worst year at school ever. And my kid is the good kid. No one was yelling at her and being mean to her, but she couldn't handle the teeny tiny remote possibility of her teacher going off on her like she did other kids. Consider the stress you are causing other children when you yell at their peers.

Well, I imagine teachers like parents aren’t perfect. No one *deliberately* yells.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What I would love is a teacher who is brave enough to write an expose of FCPS. Maybe someone who is planning to quit anyway. I really don't think the general public has any clue what it's actually like these days in the "responsive classroom."

I've been expose-ing fcps on this board since I quit 10 years ago. It's pointless. The system is so broken there. Parents have no idea, and the county likes it that way. If you read through these forums you'll see many many teachers posting the same things I have been saying. It's not a secret. But it's so bureaucratic that nothing can be changed. The whole top-down structure where all the decisions are made by people who are basically politicians and haven't been in a classroom in 30 years, and teachers are powerless.

Not sure why you are targeting RC though - it's just one of a million programs that gets adopted for a while and then replaced with something new a few years later. It's one of the better programs FCPS has, actually.

I'm targeting RC because it's a trendy program that simply doesn't work. Kids with behavioral issues continue to disrupt the class because they know there are no consequences. Kids who really want to learn continue being ignored while the teacher deals with the troublemakers. Rinse and repeat. RC does no one any favors. Troublemakers should be immediately dealt with, with real consequences (missing recess, actually getting yelled at by the principal, parents called, etc.). Babying them along and trying to relate to them emotionally is a waste of time for everyone. Teachers shouldn't be expected to devote their time to soothing the troublemakers back into good behavior (which does not work) at the expense of the other kids who simply want to learn.

Parent of a rule following child who loves to learn here - my kid doesn't want you yelling at her peers, even if they're being a pain in the butt. She had a teacher like that and was terrified of her. It was her worst year at school ever. And my kid is the good kid. No one was yelling at her and being mean to her, but she couldn't handle the teeny tiny remote possibility of her teacher going off on her like she did other kids. Consider the stress you are causing other children when you yell at their peers.

Let's just hope PP isn't a teacher, since they think that trying to relate to children emotionally is a "waste of time."

I don’t care if she relates to my kids emotionally. That’s not her job.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is a huge reason why public schools are failing. There are no consequences for poor behavior. I think class sizes play a role as well as staffing. We have full grade levels struggling due to the behavior of 5-8 kids. We have parents asking teachers how to parent their kids. It is a mess.

I think a lot of kids misbehave at school because they know they can get away with crap there that they wouldn’t at home. Teachers ‘ ability to deliver meaningful consequences has been stripped from teachers, and school administrators who are more interested in playing politician than in acknowledging their “in loco parentis” responsibilities, are doing little because they prioritize their own self-interest over the community for which they work.

THIS ^^. I'm one of the PPs who wound up quitting due to the horrendous behavior of some of my students. The principal and assistant principal looked at me like I had four heads when I brought the situation to their attention (they already knew about it, but continued to gaslight as if it was my fault). They refused to call the parents because they clearly didn't want the hassle of having to deal with them. I'm looking into teaching a private school, where kids troublemakers are not tolerated and teachers are supported.

There is so much gaslighting in education at every level. This is why teachers are done. Oh and the toxic positivity-nonsense.

what does that mean?

DP. Where I teach, it means something along the lines of "He wouldn't be failing/ refusing to come to school/ initiating fights with classmates/ calling you a f****** b**** if you tried a little harder to build a relationship and made your lesson plans more engaging. We know it's Thanksgiving Break but here's some PD to teach you how to do this more effectively!! Please remember to take time to connect with those around you and enjoy your time off!"

that makes absolutely no sense. you mean that's the messaging parents give you as a teacher???

DP. That makes perfect sense. This is the message teachers are given by both the parents and the administration - "It's YOUR fault if your students aren't engaged. It's YOUR fault if they're acting up and disrupting the class. What can YOU do to make this child behave better?" The PP nailed it.

DP, but I could have been the PP and written that post. Not only have I been told that I need to have a plan to support the disruptive students, but I also need to have and communicate my plans to support the students who are most affected (or have parents who are most vocal) by the disruptive students. Apparently if I set expectations, am consistent and model expected behaviors the disruptive students will behave appropriately. When they don’t it must be because I’m not doing these things. I also need to make sure I know what all of the students are doing, 100% of the time, which is tough to manage when so much time is spent working with small groups.

In my decades of teaching for FCPS I never had difficulty managing a class until just a few years ago (still pre-pandemic). I rarely needed to refer to the administrators, but when I did you could be sure I needed assistance. I’ve stopped doing that. It just creates too much trouble for me and draws the spotlight of criticism. Almost the entire day is disrupted in some way by outbursts, side conversations, arguments or students who are just off task in some way. I keep trying Responsive Classroom techniques, but if they work it is short-lived. I’ve always allowed for movement and I never have expected a silent classroom, but something has changed and each day is very difficult.

Exactly this. When I spoke to admin, they asked if I was using the chimes to quiet down the class. The f-ing chimes??!!? Sure, I use the chimes - and the kids completely ignore them. They.do.not.care. My voice is constantly hoarse from having to yell just to be heard - and I am not a yeller. If I'm trying to work with small groups, inevitably the troublemakers make it impossible for me to devote any time at all to the few kids who just want to learn and need my help. I'm constantly putting out metaphorical fires - spats between kids that are absurd - when I could be actually teaching them something. And apparently, all this bad behavior is my fault. No wonder teachers are leaving in droves. No doubt I'll be joining them if I can make it through this year.

I just popped on this thread and read the last 10 posts. Oh my goodness! Teachers, I feel so bad fir you that you are desling with this kind of hell. Damn. No one wants to work under those kinds of circumstances. It makes me very angry that good teachers are being run out of the profession.

Question: instead of leaving teaching altogether, would your job change for the better if you moved to a different/higher income school? I ask b/c my kids (HS) do not see that kind of disruption and disrespect in their classes at one of the HS that has a smaller number of needy kids. I know that in the HS where we used to live (also FCPS, but more diverse), I heard multiple reports that you MUST avoid the reg level classes b/c the the majority of kids in them don't want to learn, and they literally harass and terrorize the teachers. In some cases, running multiple teachers out by xmas break. So, my impression is that the job can vary significantly in different high schools.

Could you change schools and stay in the profession?

That claim is far overblown. Poorer schools in FCPS have their own unique issues but they are absolutely not the hellscape they are slandered to be. Most of my colleagues who are ESOL teachers love working with that demographic and would not consider teaching outside of ESOL. Of course, everyone's personal experience is different.

You can check posted vacancies for yourself as proof that the diverse schools aren't disproportionately in need of teachers. MVHS, Justice, and Falls Church don't even have a single vacancy as of this moment.

What I wrote is 100% true. And it did not involve MVHS, Justice or Falls Church. Those schools have a preponderance of poor kids. I was speaking about the next tier of schools where there is a substantial number of non-academically-interested kids as well as a population of normal MC/UMC kids. In one case a friend was able to get her kid out of reg math and into the honors section mid year b/c of the super bad behavior in the class running off several teachers by xmas. In another case, there were literally 2 kids in a foreign lang class (no honors is available) who wanted to actually learn and the teacher told those two to sit up front and she would teach them while the others would continue to mess around and be harassing and rude. The teacher washed her hands of the rest of the class. There are other examples. But the bottom line is that you AVOID the regular level classes in that school. Where my kids go now, they can take regular level classes where honors aren't offered (i.e. foreign lang) or where they don't want to take honors (b/c it's not an area of stregth), and they do not have the "Lord of the Flies" experience. And there are NO vacancies at the beginning of each year (except maybe one spec. ed teacher opening)... so I presume that teachers want to be there.

The bigger point is that I really sympathize with teachers who are facing this kind of thing on a regular basis. I cannot imagine having to called names/profanity or threatened at work. I was only hoping there was some way out for those teachers so that they could continue to teach kids who WANT TO LEARN and who have the self-control to behave normally. I value good teachers and don't want to lose them. I think my last kid will be fine given the teacher (and peers) he has in his HS. And he only has 2.5 yrs left. Then I'm out of FCPS for good. As a home-owner and tax-payer, and supporter of public schools, I'd like Fairfax schools to be successful. Honestly, though, I'm worried about the future of our community and the future of FCPS if teachers are being driven away. And I can't blame them.

Just a word on vacancies - you can't rely on what's posted online. I worked in a school that always had vacancies, and they were rarely advertised. When they were, it was often long after the position had remained unfilled at the beginning of the year. I never could figure out whether it was some kind of lag in the posting, procrastination by the principal, or some sleight of hand related to staffing and funding.

Fair enough... but I usually hear at the first PTA mtg in early Sept. directly from the principal's mouth that they either have no vacancies or they still need just one special ed teacher or other teacher b/c they ended up getting a few more students than they expected and the school now qualifies for one more position. I've been going to these meetings for the last... about 6 yrs. I don't think the principal would lie. But, I'm not omniscient.

😂😂😂 Are you kidding me? Principals are the ultimate politicians. They lie all the damn time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What I would love is a teacher who is brave enough to write an expose of FCPS. Maybe someone who is planning to quit anyway. I really don't think the general public has any clue what it's actually like these days in the "responsive classroom."

You really, really don’t want to know what goes on behind the curtain. Sometimes ignorance really is bliss.

I know, but if the public found out, hopefully there would be an outcry and change. For starters, a completely different school board.

I don’t know. I feel like the whole management process needs to change with more teaching teachers having leadership roles or at least vetoes or “votes.” Yeah, rigged surveys don’t count. So many of the people we work for are so incompetent, it kills me. Too many Ed.D programs are 1. Nowhere near as rigorous as they should be and 2. are churning out some class act idiots.

This! I left teaching in public schools after 15 years of THIS! I couldn’t handle working for people whose entire purpose seemed to be making my job harder and less effective.

I now work in a private where administrative roles are shared among practicing teachers. It’s heaven. No more listening to “the latest and greatest” idea coming from someone who left the stress of the classroom.

DP. This sounds fantastic.

I’m the PP. I would love to see US education completely change to the model above.

If you’re a good teacher, you shouldn’t be leaving the field to become an administrator. We need you in the classroom! That way the students still benefit from your teaching and newer teachers can observe your methods. If you’re a poor teacher, you also shouldn’t become an administrator. I’ve been in education long enough to see several poor teachers transfer to admin, where they can do significant damage through dreadful observations and lack of vision.

I doubt it would cost more to switch to this model (which is already used in other countries). Admin salaries are much higher. Use the money saved there to give the lead teachers a pay boost for the extra administrative work they’ll do and provide them with extra planning time.

Ultimately, everybody wins.

Disagree. Most entry-level admin jobs don’t have a significantly higher hourly salary… they are higher because they work a full 12 months and need to be compensated for an extra 50+ work days. After school commitments for APs and principals are also significant in a way that they are not for teachers. While I agree that teachers need to be paid more, expecting that we’ll somehow attract BETTER administrators by offering less pay is just fantasy land. If anything, we should be paying them MORE (FCPS has lowest admin salary of all surrounding counties) to increase our candidate pool and be able to attract the best talent!

I’m the PP. I think we’re approaching this from different directions. I think we should completely disband school-based admin. There’s no need to attract best talent because it’s already in the building, in the form of master teachers who are intimately familiar with what students need. Once an administrator steps out of the classroom, they stop gaining teaching experience. They aren’t as familiar with how students change, how appropriate instruction methods change, etc.

As for the extra work, teachers are already doing it. I left my school at 7:30pm the other day, long after admin. I attend (and work at) plays, sporting events, etc. I’m just not paid for that since it’s considered “volunteer” hours. Summer hours? Fine. I’m already working by rewriting curricula, etc. I just don’t get paid.

This is a tried and true model. Lead teachers run the school. They perform all administrative duties while being compensated with additional pay and planning time. If it helps, think of it as admin that still keep one foot in teaching.

I don’t want to be an administrator because I want to stay in the classroom. This model would give great teachers a way to move up the ladder without leaving teaching entirely.

- home sick (hence the post)

I agree.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What I would love is a teacher who is brave enough to write an expose of FCPS. Maybe someone who is planning to quit anyway. I really don't think the general public has any clue what it's actually like these days in the "responsive classroom."

I've been expose-ing fcps on this board since I quit 10 years ago. It's pointless. The system is so broken there. Parents have no idea, and the county likes it that way. If you read through these forums you'll see many many teachers posting the same things I have been saying. It's not a secret. But it's so bureaucratic that nothing can be changed. The whole top-down structure where all the decisions are made by people who are basically politicians and haven't been in a classroom in 30 years, and teachers are powerless.

Not sure why you are targeting RC though - it's just one of a million programs that gets adopted for a while and then replaced with something new a few years later. It's one of the better programs FCPS has, actually.

I'm targeting RC because it's a trendy program that simply doesn't work. Kids with behavioral issues continue to disrupt the class because they know there are no consequences. Kids who really want to learn continue being ignored while the teacher deals with the troublemakers. Rinse and repeat. RC does no one any favors. Troublemakers should be immediately dealt with, with real consequences (missing recess, actually getting yelled at by the principal, parents called, etc.). Babying them along and trying to relate to them emotionally is a waste of time for everyone. Teachers shouldn't be expected to devote their time to soothing the troublemakers back into good behavior (which does not work) at the expense of the other kids who simply want to learn.

Parent of a rule following child who loves to learn here - my kid doesn't want you yelling at her peers, even if they're being a pain in the butt. She had a teacher like that and was terrified of her. It was her worst year at school ever. And my kid is the good kid. No one was yelling at her and being mean to her, but she couldn't handle the teeny tiny remote possibility of her teacher going off on her like she did other kids. Consider the stress you are causing other children when you yell at their peers.

Well, I imagine teachers like parents aren’t perfect. No one *deliberately* yells.

I left teaching a few years ago, but if you think that teachers can spend over seven hours a day, 180 days a year, managing over 25 students and are not yelling every once in a while… Then you’re delusional.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What I would love is a teacher who is brave enough to write an expose of FCPS. Maybe someone who is planning to quit anyway. I really don't think the general public has any clue what it's actually like these days in the "responsive classroom."

I've been expose-ing fcps on this board since I quit 10 years ago. It's pointless. The system is so broken there. Parents have no idea, and the county likes it that way. If you read through these forums you'll see many many teachers posting the same things I have been saying. It's not a secret. But it's so bureaucratic that nothing can be changed. The whole top-down structure where all the decisions are made by people who are basically politicians and haven't been in a classroom in 30 years, and teachers are powerless.

Not sure why you are targeting RC though - it's just one of a million programs that gets adopted for a while and then replaced with something new a few years later. It's one of the better programs FCPS has, actually.

I'm targeting RC because it's a trendy program that simply doesn't work. Kids with behavioral issues continue to disrupt the class because they know there are no consequences. Kids who really want to learn continue being ignored while the teacher deals with the troublemakers. Rinse and repeat. RC does no one any favors. Troublemakers should be immediately dealt with, with real consequences (missing recess, actually getting yelled at by the principal, parents called, etc.). Babying them along and trying to relate to them emotionally is a waste of time for everyone. Teachers shouldn't be expected to devote their time to soothing the troublemakers back into good behavior (which does not work) at the expense of the other kids who simply want to learn.

Parent of a rule following child who loves to learn here - my kid doesn't want you yelling at her peers, even if they're being a pain in the butt. She had a teacher like that and was terrified of her. It was her worst year at school ever. And my kid is the good kid. No one was yelling at her and being mean to her, but she couldn't handle the teeny tiny remote possibility of her teacher going off on her like she did other kids. Consider the stress you are causing other children when you yell at their peers.

Well, I imagine teachers like parents aren’t perfect. No one *deliberately* yells.

I left teaching a few years ago, but if you think that teachers can spend over seven hours a day, 180 days a year, managing over 25 students and are not yelling every once in a while… Then you’re delusional.

I'm the parent you all are quoting and I was specifically referring to the person above who said that teachers and parents need to yell at kids in order to get them to listen.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What I would love is a teacher who is brave enough to write an expose of FCPS. Maybe someone who is planning to quit anyway. I really don't think the general public has any clue what it's actually like these days in the "responsive classroom."

I've been expose-ing fcps on this board since I quit 10 years ago. It's pointless. The system is so broken there. Parents have no idea, and the county likes it that way. If you read through these forums you'll see many many teachers posting the same things I have been saying. It's not a secret. But it's so bureaucratic that nothing can be changed. The whole top-down structure where all the decisions are made by people who are basically politicians and haven't been in a classroom in 30 years, and teachers are powerless.

Not sure why you are targeting RC though - it's just one of a million programs that gets adopted for a while and then replaced with something new a few years later. It's one of the better programs FCPS has, actually.

I'm targeting RC because it's a trendy program that simply doesn't work. Kids with behavioral issues continue to disrupt the class because they know there are no consequences. Kids who really want to learn continue being ignored while the teacher deals with the troublemakers. Rinse and repeat. RC does no one any favors. Troublemakers should be immediately dealt with, with real consequences (missing recess, actually getting yelled at by the principal, parents called, etc.). Babying them along and trying to relate to them emotionally is a waste of time for everyone. Teachers shouldn't be expected to devote their time to soothing the troublemakers back into good behavior (which does not work) at the expense of the other kids who simply want to learn.

Parent of a rule following child who loves to learn here - my kid doesn't want you yelling at her peers, even if they're being a pain in the butt. She had a teacher like that and was terrified of her. It was her worst year at school ever. And my kid is the good kid. No one was yelling at her and being mean to her, but she couldn't handle the teeny tiny remote possibility of her teacher going off on her like she did other kids. Consider the stress you are causing other children when you yell at their peers.

Well, I imagine teachers like parents aren’t perfect. No one *deliberately* yells.

I left teaching a few years ago, but if you think that teachers can spend over seven hours a day, 180 days a year, managing over 25 students and are not yelling every once in a while… Then you’re delusional.

I'm the parent you all are quoting and I was specifically referring to the person above who said that teachers and parents need to yell at kids in order to get them to listen.

Ah, I think she has to yell to be *heard.* The din in the classroom can be such that any one person speaking is drowned out. As Carlos Santana once said, Americans don’t know how to shut the duck up, and so no surprise that American kids are like this too, but it’s been getting worse over the last few years. They don’t know how to listen to another person speak.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What I would love is a teacher who is brave enough to write an expose of FCPS. Maybe someone who is planning to quit anyway. I really don't think the general public has any clue what it's actually like these days in the "responsive classroom."

I've been expose-ing fcps on this board since I quit 10 years ago. It's pointless. The system is so broken there. Parents have no idea, and the county likes it that way. If you read through these forums you'll see many many teachers posting the same things I have been saying. It's not a secret. But it's so bureaucratic that nothing can be changed. The whole top-down structure where all the decisions are made by people who are basically politicians and haven't been in a classroom in 30 years, and teachers are powerless.

Not sure why you are targeting RC though - it's just one of a million programs that gets adopted for a while and then replaced with something new a few years later. It's one of the better programs FCPS has, actually.

I'm targeting RC because it's a trendy program that simply doesn't work. Kids with behavioral issues continue to disrupt the class because they know there are no consequences. Kids who really want to learn continue being ignored while the teacher deals with the troublemakers. Rinse and repeat. RC does no one any favors. Troublemakers should be immediately dealt with, with real consequences (missing recess, actually getting yelled at by the principal, parents called, etc.). Babying them along and trying to relate to them emotionally is a waste of time for everyone. Teachers shouldn't be expected to devote their time to soothing the troublemakers back into good behavior (which does not work) at the expense of the other kids who simply want to learn.

Parent of a rule following child who loves to learn here - my kid doesn't want you yelling at her peers, even if they're being a pain in the butt. She had a teacher like that and was terrified of her. It was her worst year at school ever. And my kid is the good kid. No one was yelling at her and being mean to her, but she couldn't handle the teeny tiny remote possibility of her teacher going off on her like she did other kids. Consider the stress you are causing other children when you yell at their peers.

Well, I imagine teachers like parents aren’t perfect. No one *deliberately* yells.

I left teaching a few years ago, but if you think that teachers can spend over seven hours a day, 180 days a year, managing over 25 students and are not yelling every once in a while… Then you’re delusional.

I'm the parent you all are quoting and I was specifically referring to the person above who said that teachers and parents need to yell at kids in order to get them to listen.

Ah, I think she has to yell to be *heard.* The din in the classroom can be such that any one person speaking is drowned out. As Carlos Santana once said, Americans don’t know how to shut the duck up, and so no surprise that American kids are like this too, but it’s been getting worse over the last few years. They don’t know how to listen to another person speak.

Quite true. I see this as a teacher. I also have my own child who craves silence when she gets home from school. She reports that it’s just noisy, and that most of the day is filled with people talking over each other. She says her teacher shouts, but it’s only to be heard over her 30 classmates.

I get that teachers need to provide discipline, manage classrooms, etc. It’s getting harder and harder, however. Having high expectations for behavior is great, but increasingly students simply don’t care. There are fewer consequences for misbehavior now, and (from my years is experience) feel-good management techniques are often seen as “soft” by students who choose to be disruptive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What I would love is a teacher who is brave enough to write an expose of FCPS. Maybe someone who is planning to quit anyway. I really don't think the general public has any clue what it's actually like these days in the "responsive classroom."

I've been expose-ing fcps on this board since I quit 10 years ago. It's pointless. The system is so broken there. Parents have no idea, and the county likes it that way. If you read through these forums you'll see many many teachers posting the same things I have been saying. It's not a secret. But it's so bureaucratic that nothing can be changed. The whole top-down structure where all the decisions are made by people who are basically politicians and haven't been in a classroom in 30 years, and teachers are powerless.

Not sure why you are targeting RC though - it's just one of a million programs that gets adopted for a while and then replaced with something new a few years later. It's one of the better programs FCPS has, actually.

I'm targeting RC because it's a trendy program that simply doesn't work. Kids with behavioral issues continue to disrupt the class because they know there are no consequences. Kids who really want to learn continue being ignored while the teacher deals with the troublemakers. Rinse and repeat. RC does no one any favors. Troublemakers should be immediately dealt with, with real consequences (missing recess, actually getting yelled at by the principal, parents called, etc.). Babying them along and trying to relate to them emotionally is a waste of time for everyone. Teachers shouldn't be expected to devote their time to soothing the troublemakers back into good behavior (which does not work) at the expense of the other kids who simply want to learn.

Parent of a rule following child who loves to learn here - my kid doesn't want you yelling at her peers, even if they're being a pain in the butt. She had a teacher like that and was terrified of her. It was her worst year at school ever. And my kid is the good kid. No one was yelling at her and being mean to her, but she couldn't handle the teeny tiny remote possibility of her teacher going off on her like she did other kids. Consider the stress you are causing other children when you yell at their peers.

Oh. Then I guess you'd prefer your rule-following, learning-loving child to be constantly distracted and interrupted by kids who refuse to behave. I'm sure she would enjoy not being able to hear or learn a thing because the teacher refuses to discipline the troublemakers. Let us know how that works out for her.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What I would love is a teacher who is brave enough to write an expose of FCPS. Maybe someone who is planning to quit anyway. I really don't think the general public has any clue what it's actually like these days in the "responsive classroom."

I've been expose-ing fcps on this board since I quit 10 years ago. It's pointless. The system is so broken there. Parents have no idea, and the county likes it that way. If you read through these forums you'll see many many teachers posting the same things I have been saying. It's not a secret. But it's so bureaucratic that nothing can be changed. The whole top-down structure where all the decisions are made by people who are basically politicians and haven't been in a classroom in 30 years, and teachers are powerless.

Not sure why you are targeting RC though - it's just one of a million programs that gets adopted for a while and then replaced with something new a few years later. It's one of the better programs FCPS has, actually.

I'm targeting RC because it's a trendy program that simply doesn't work. Kids with behavioral issues continue to disrupt the class because they know there are no consequences. Kids who really want to learn continue being ignored while the teacher deals with the troublemakers. Rinse and repeat. RC does no one any favors. Troublemakers should be immediately dealt with, with real consequences (missing recess, actually getting yelled at by the principal, parents called, etc.). Babying them along and trying to relate to them emotionally is a waste of time for everyone. Teachers shouldn't be expected to devote their time to soothing the troublemakers back into good behavior (which does not work) at the expense of the other kids who simply want to learn.

Parent of a rule following child who loves to learn here - my kid doesn't want you yelling at her peers, even if they're being a pain in the butt. She had a teacher like that and was terrified of her. It was her worst year at school ever. And my kid is the good kid. No one was yelling at her and being mean to her, but she couldn't handle the teeny tiny remote possibility of her teacher going off on her like she did other kids. Consider the stress you are causing other children when you yell at their peers.

Let's just hope PP isn't a teacher, since they think that trying to relate to children emotionally is a "waste of time."

I don’t care if she relates to my kids emotionally. That’s not her job.

+1
Also, the PP was referring to the troublemakers. And I agree that it *is* a waste of time - time that should be devoted to the children who want to learn and who are behaving appropriately - to try and reason with disruptive kids. I'm not interested in my child's teacher taking time out of the day to coddle and jolly along some kid who is chronically disrupting the class. That teacher has a room full of kids who aren't being taught every time the teacher has to make time to deal with the troublemaker. No. Send that kid to the principal so that learning can continue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What I would love is a teacher who is brave enough to write an expose of FCPS. Maybe someone who is planning to quit anyway. I really don't think the general public has any clue what it's actually like these days in the "responsive classroom."

I've been expose-ing fcps on this board since I quit 10 years ago. It's pointless. The system is so broken there. Parents have no idea, and the county likes it that way. If you read through these forums you'll see many many teachers posting the same things I have been saying. It's not a secret. But it's so bureaucratic that nothing can be changed. The whole top-down structure where all the decisions are made by people who are basically politicians and haven't been in a classroom in 30 years, and teachers are powerless.

Not sure why you are targeting RC though - it's just one of a million programs that gets adopted for a while and then replaced with something new a few years later. It's one of the better programs FCPS has, actually.

I'm targeting RC because it's a trendy program that simply doesn't work. Kids with behavioral issues continue to disrupt the class because they know there are no consequences. Kids who really want to learn continue being ignored while the teacher deals with the troublemakers. Rinse and repeat. RC does no one any favors. Troublemakers should be immediately dealt with, with real consequences (missing recess, actually getting yelled at by the principal, parents called, etc.). Babying them along and trying to relate to them emotionally is a waste of time for everyone. Teachers shouldn't be expected to devote their time to soothing the troublemakers back into good behavior (which does not work) at the expense of the other kids who simply want to learn.

Parent of a rule following child who loves to learn here - my kid doesn't want you yelling at her peers, even if they're being a pain in the butt. She had a teacher like that and was terrified of her. It was her worst year at school ever. And my kid is the good kid. No one was yelling at her and being mean to her, but she couldn't handle the teeny tiny remote possibility of her teacher going off on her like she did other kids. Consider the stress you are causing other children when you yell at their peers.

Well, I imagine teachers like parents aren’t perfect. No one *deliberately* yells.

I left teaching a few years ago, but if you think that teachers can spend over seven hours a day, 180 days a year, managing over 25 students and are not yelling every once in a while… Then you’re delusional.

+100
I think that's what the PP above you was saying. And I agree. Some kids simply will not listen to reason and polite requests to get back on task. If a kid (or kids) are behaving appropriately all day, there need to be consequences.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What I would love is a teacher who is brave enough to write an expose of FCPS. Maybe someone who is planning to quit anyway. I really don't think the general public has any clue what it's actually like these days in the "responsive classroom."

I've been expose-ing fcps on this board since I quit 10 years ago. It's pointless. The system is so broken there. Parents have no idea, and the county likes it that way. If you read through these forums you'll see many many teachers posting the same things I have been saying. It's not a secret. But it's so bureaucratic that nothing can be changed. The whole top-down structure where all the decisions are made by people who are basically politicians and haven't been in a classroom in 30 years, and teachers are powerless.

Not sure why you are targeting RC though - it's just one of a million programs that gets adopted for a while and then replaced with something new a few years later. It's one of the better programs FCPS has, actually.

I'm targeting RC because it's a trendy program that simply doesn't work. Kids with behavioral issues continue to disrupt the class because they know there are no consequences. Kids who really want to learn continue being ignored while the teacher deals with the troublemakers. Rinse and repeat. RC does no one any favors. Troublemakers should be immediately dealt with, with real consequences (missing recess, actually getting yelled at by the principal, parents called, etc.). Babying them along and trying to relate to them emotionally is a waste of time for everyone. Teachers shouldn't be expected to devote their time to soothing the troublemakers back into good behavior (which does not work) at the expense of the other kids who simply want to learn.

Parent of a rule following child who loves to learn here - my kid doesn't want you yelling at her peers, even if they're being a pain in the butt. She had a teacher like that and was terrified of her. It was her worst year at school ever. And my kid is the good kid. No one was yelling at her and being mean to her, but she couldn't handle the teeny tiny remote possibility of her teacher going off on her like she did other kids. Consider the stress you are causing other children when you yell at their peers.

Well, I imagine teachers like parents aren’t perfect. No one *deliberately* yells.

I left teaching a few years ago, but if you think that teachers can spend over seven hours a day, 180 days a year, managing over 25 students and are not yelling every once in a while… Then you’re delusional.

I'm the parent you all are quoting and I was specifically referring to the person above who said that teachers and parents need to yell at kids in order to get them to listen.

Ah, I think she has to yell to be *heard.* The din in the classroom can be such that any one person speaking is drowned out. As Carlos Santana once said, Americans don’t know how to shut the duck up, and so no surprise that American kids are like this too, but it’s been getting worse over the last few years. They don’t know how to listen to another person speak.

Quite true. I see this as a teacher. I also have my own child who craves silence when she gets home from school. She reports that it’s just noisy, and that most of the day is filled with people talking over each other. She says her teacher shouts, but it’s only to be heard over her 30 classmates.

I get that teachers need to provide discipline, manage classrooms, etc. It’s getting harder and harder, however. Having high expectations for behavior is great, but increasingly students simply don’t care. There are fewer consequences for misbehavior now, and (from my years is experience) feel-good management techniques are often seen as “soft” by students who choose to be disruptive.

DP. Exactly.

[Anonymous]

It's not just misbehavior that's the issue when it comes to students. In MS and HS, the 50% minimum grade and open enrollment mean that students are increasingly unprepared for higher-level classes as they move through the system.

They can't handle the class; they hog up a huge amount of our time trying to help them, usually to no avail because they're unable to help themselves and take initiative to catch up--and that's time we can't spend helping other students during the lesson; they refuse to go down to a level they can handle because of misplaced pride, and by the time they give up and decide to move down, that level may be full; we have to spend a lot of extra time dealing with their parents who are often clueless/in denial/unwilling to put their foot down; the parents sometimes make our lives difficult, insisting on things like changing to a different teacher, on us spending extensive amounts of one-on-one time with their kid after school because the world owes them something, on us coming up with "different methods" to teach their child...

And many of those who do pass have absurdly inflated grades that don't reflect their true performance, leading to problems in subsequent years.