Midwife charged in DC? Karen Carr, CPM...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I just keep coming back to the fact that NARM has not suspended her certificate subject to an investigation or otherwise acted to review her conduct (after being convicted of two felonies relating to her provision of care).

What does the "Big Push" matter when the CPM standard is such a joke? Why should we encourage licensing of people whose certification is laughable and subject to no meaning on-going review or professional education standards?

Exactly! When I think of "The Big Push" it reminds me of bullies trying to have their way through coercion. In my state, they tried that three years ago and it fizzled. So now lay midwives continue to practice but just do it illegally and under the radar and even the CNMs on the radio say that lay midwives hold off too long at a home birth emergency because they don't want to call 911 and incriminate themselves. The standards for CPMs and NARM are a joke. A high school dropout is an "expert in normal birth." Successful or fizzled, the Big Push doesn't legitimize these frauds.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just keep coming back to the fact that NARM has not suspended her certificate subject to an investigation or otherwise acted to review her conduct (after being convicted of two felonies relating to her provision of care).

What does the "Big Push" matter when the CPM standard is such a joke? Why should we encourage licensing of people whose certification is laughable and subject to no meaning on-going review or professional education standards?

Exactly! When I think of "The Big Push" it reminds me of bullies trying to have their way through coercion. In my state, they tried that three years ago and it fizzled. So now lay midwives continue to practice but just do it illegally and under the radar and even the CNMs on the radio say that lay midwives hold off too long at a home birth emergency because they don't want to call 911 and incriminate themselves. The standards for CPMs and NARM are a joke. [b]A high school dropout is an "expert in normal birth." Successful or fizzled, the Big Push doesn't legitimize these frauds.

[/b]

Why do people keep insisting that CPMs are high school dropouts?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I just keep coming back to the fact that NARM has not suspended her certificate subject to an investigation or otherwise acted to review her conduct (after being convicted of two felonies relating to her provision of care).

What does the "Big Push" matter when the CPM standard is such a joke? Why should we encourage licensing of people whose certification is laughable and subject to no meaning on-going review or professional education standards?

Exactly! When I think of "The Big Push" it reminds me of bullies trying to have their way through coercion. In my state, they tried that three years ago and it fizzled. So now lay midwives continue to practice but just do it illegally and under the radar and even the CNMs on the radio say that lay midwives hold off too long at a home birth emergency because they don't want to call 911 and incriminate themselves. The standards for CPMs and NARM are a joke. [b]A high school dropout is an "expert in normal birth." Successful or fizzled, the Big Push doesn't legitimize these frauds.

[/b]

Why do people keep insisting that CPMs are high school dropouts?

Because there is no requirement for a high school, or college, diploma, so some may very well be high school dropouts. It's yet another reflection of the very minimal standards set to become a CPM.

I also don't understand why states should license CPMs if they have no evidence-based research backing that CPMs have good outcomes in terms of neonatal morbidity/mortality and maternal morbidity/mortality. Some countries (Canada) seem to have good homebirth outcomes, but they have strict exclusion criteria (no breech, no multiples, no going more than 41 weeks), and their midwives are university-educated and integrated into the healthcare system. None of this rogue, high-risk business allowed.

[Anonymous]

Seriously -- these are people essentially working alone (without the sort of oversight and review that might happen in a hospital), isolated from life-saving technologies. Seems like they need better than OB training, not 40 births.

[Anonymous]

I keep coming back to the fact that because Carr was underground, she appears to have been worried about taking mothers/babies to the hospital bc she knew she would be exposed. Do you really want to wonder about her motivation if things go wrong?

The unfortunate VA baby death (allegation that Carr waited too long to take the baby to the hospital) and the new story about the mother hemorraghing, but Carr waited to take her (sorry, to have her assistant take her) are proof enough.

So sad. Carr really seems pathological and an egomaniac.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
So sad. Carr really seems pathological and an egomaniac.

There are fair criticisms to be made here, but I think this (and many other comments like this in this thread) are baseless and take it too far. What do you know that makes her an egomaniac or pathological? You don't know her from Adam (and neither do I). You can criticize her actions, her decisions, and how she chooses to respond, but attacking her personally without base is tasteless, in my opinion.

[Anonymous]

From Carr's quotes in the WaPo article, does seem like an egomaniac. I am not sure about pathological.

[Anonymous]

I'm not the PP, but I think it is fair and accurate to refer to Carr as pathological and an egomaniac.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:From Carr's quotes in the WaPo article, does seem like an egomaniac. I am not sure about pathological.

And what if the quotes in the paper were used out of context? Or what if they weren't the full quotes? I have been interviewed by the Post for a completely different topic and they took what I said and manipulated it to mean something totally different than what I really menat or explained in my conversation with the reporter. I read the article and was disturbed by what was described in the other incidents, then because I deleivered with Carr, I'm on the list to get emails. They said some of the information surrounding the birth stories in the article were inaccurate and false. Now I know the source of that is biased towards Carr, but is it so inconceivable that the author of the article was biased against Carr? As with most things, I imagine the truth is somewhere between the two.

[Anonymous]

I guess I just don't understand her ability to go on delivering babies right now. To have been through that breech birth scenario (with having lost another infant in close proximity) -- I just have to ask what sort of person doesn't take a deep breath and perhaps decide to take a break and re-examine some choices, work on some skill sets, etc.

I could never be a doctor or a midwife. I have a job that has some heavy responsibilities, but I could not assume that level of responsibility for someone's well-being. The fact that Karen can seem to do it so lightly, with so little apparent sense of responsibility for outcomes (per the WaPo, she says she's not guilty because she didn't intend the outcome -- there's someone confused about the concept of negligence!) is very troubling.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:From Carr's quotes in the WaPo article, does seem like an egomaniac. I am not sure about pathological.

And what if the quotes in the paper were used out of context? Or what if they weren't the full quotes? I have been interviewed by the Post for a completely different topic and they took what I said and manipulated it to mean something totally different than what I really menat or explained in my conversation with the reporter. I read the article and was disturbed by what was described in the other incidents, then because I deleivered with Carr, I'm on the list to get emails. They said some of the information surrounding the birth stories in the article were inaccurate and false. Now I know the source of that is biased towards Carr, but is it so inconceivable that the author of the article was biased against Carr? As with most things, I imagine the truth is somewhere between the two.

Your logic and reasoning seems to be inept. Did the reporter fictionalize this story? Was Karen Carr drugged and brainwashed and forced at gunpoint to confess her negligence in the role of serving as a provider who produced a dead child? She has acknowledged on multiple sources about what happened, and she agreed and signed on on these basic facts in her plea agreement.

Your blind support of someone who killed a baby is despicable. So many people so close to this case are deeply suffering and tormented, and all you can think to say is that she was quoted out of context? WTF! Someone needs to give you a big, hard kick to the a**.

What part of killing someone's baby do you fail to view as a problem?

Maybe the baby didn't die? Maybe it was whisked out of the country by black helicopters as an elaborate plot to overthrow this poor lovely saintly Karen Carr. I'm sure this whole charade was cooked up by doctors and their hospital administrator ilk just so they can line their pockets and pay their luxury car leases.

Any sane person who truly loves birth and mothers and babies, but finds herself responsible, or in this case criminally culpable, in the deaths of more than one baby, would take a deep breath, a sebatical perhaps, and maybe consider going back to school or to school for the first time to take up a different line of work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:From Carr's quotes in the WaPo article, does seem like an egomaniac. I am not sure about pathological.

I agree. Her actions and words combined make her seem like an egomaniac. I'd add that carrying on to do things that end in death without care (or awareness that she SHOULD care) about the root of the problem so that it doesn't happen again points to pathological.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:From Carr's quotes in the WaPo article, does seem like an egomaniac. I am not sure about pathological.

And what if the quotes in the paper were used out of context? Or what if they weren't the full quotes? I have been interviewed by the Post for a completely different topic and they took what I said and manipulated it to mean something totally different than what I really menat or explained in my conversation with the reporter. I read the article and was disturbed by what was described in the other incidents, then because I deleivered with Carr, I'm on the list to get emails. They said some of the information surrounding the birth stories in the article were inaccurate and false. Now I know the source of that is biased towards Carr, but is it so inconceivable that the author of the article was biased against Carr? As with most things, I imagine the truth is somewhere between the two.

The quotes were fine. Find the NPR interview. She digs herself into a hole and has no clue.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:From Carr's quotes in the WaPo article, does seem like an egomaniac. I am not sure about pathological.

And what if the quotes in the paper were used out of context? Or what if they weren't the full quotes? I have been interviewed by the Post for a completely different topic and they took what I said and manipulated it to mean something totally different than what I really menat or explained in my conversation with the reporter. I read the article and was disturbed by what was described in the other incidents, then because I deleivered with Carr, I'm on the list to get emails. They said some of the information surrounding the birth stories in the article were inaccurate and false. Now I know the source of that is biased towards Carr, but is it so inconceivable that the author of the article was biased against Carr? As with most things, I imagine the truth is somewhere between the two.

Your logic and reasoning seems to be inept. Did the reporter fictionalize this story? Was Karen Carr drugged and brainwashed and forced at gunpoint to confess her negligence in the role of serving as a provider who produced a dead child? She has acknowledged on multiple sources about what happened, and she agreed and signed on on these basic facts in her plea agreement.

Your blind support of someone who killed a baby is despicable. So many people so close to this case are deeply suffering and tormented, and all you can think to say is that she was quoted out of context? WTF! Someone needs to give you a big, hard kick to the a**.

What part of killing someone's baby do you fail to view as a problem?

Maybe the baby didn't die? Maybe it was whisked out of the country by black helicopters as an elaborate plot to overthrow this poor lovely saintly Karen Carr. I'm sure this whole charade was cooked up by doctors and their hospital administrator ilk just so they can line their pockets and pay their luxury car leases.

Any sane person who truly loves birth and mothers and babies, but finds herself responsible, or in this case criminally culpable, in the deaths of more than one baby, would take a deep breath, a sebatical perhaps, and maybe consider going back to school or to school for the first time to take up a different line of work.

I believe she plead to negligence that contributed to the death of that sweet babe. The parents, while suffering deeply now, contributed to the death as well. They have to assume some responsibility for this too.

[Anonymous]

Your blind support of someone who killed a baby is despicable. So many people so close to this case are deeply suffering and tormented, and all you can think to say is that she was quoted out of context? WTF! Someone needs to give you a big, hard kick to the a**.

What part of killing someone's baby do you fail to view as a problem?

Maybe the baby didn't die? Maybe it was whisked out of the country by black helicopters as an elaborate plot to overthrow this poor lovely saintly Karen Carr. I'm sure this whole charade was cooked up by doctors and their hospital administrator ilk just so they can line their pockets and pay their luxury car leases.

Any sane person who truly loves birth and mothers and babies, but finds herself responsible, or in this case criminally culpable, in the deaths of more than one baby, would take a deep breath, a sebatical perhaps, and maybe consider going back to school or to school for the first time to take up a different line of work.

I believe she plead to negligence that contributed to the death of that sweet babe. The parents, while suffering deeply now, contributed to the death as well. They have to assume some responsibility for this too.

I just think it's weird how I'm looking at this. If i went to a physician in a hospital and was given informed consent on a procedure i willingly signed off for, and one of the risks is death, if death happens am I at fault? No, i knew the risks and that was that. I think the negligence maybe in this case comes from not calling in time, not the accepting the risks inherent in the procedure (breech at home). But, we will never know that because we don't know what the prosecution's case was nor do we know the defense of it. I just don't know enough to have a strong opinion, unlike some others on the board.