Expecting too much from K (and school)?

[Anonymous]

DC is entering K this coming fall. I am concerned that her needs may not be met academically. I understand that a lot of K is still play based and also about other things besides academics (learning to sit still, focus on listening, social skills, etc). However, I would like to ensure that she is met with challenging work and does not get bored. We are not (or at least try not) to be pushy parents, but she has demonstrated some skills that we are told by others are advanced and that she will most likely be bored in K. We have anothe child (younger) that appears to be right in the middle of the pack developmentally with his peers and we notice very large differences in the way and speed they learn things.

I have spoken to the principle of the school she will be attending, but I didn't come away with a warm and fuzzy at all. He seems very nice, but when I tried to describe DC reading level and ask about differentiation, he merely mentioned that he was shocked by the 3 kids this past year in K that had learned to read. The teacher sent them to his office to sit on the floor and read together. I'm don't feel that would provide enough forward movement for our DC in that area. She is fully reading chapter books and some of the kid's series. I would prefer that she be placed with kids at her same level so hopefully she willl continue to love reading and advance at her personal pace. But it doesn't sound like this is something they do or may consider.

In the area of math, she is doing single digit multiplication in her head. She hasn't memorized the times tables, but she actually does the addition in her head. We count by 10s, 100s. She seems to understands the concept of negative numbers, etc.

I'm told by friends that it is letter recognition and sounds, along with counting still at K. My DC will most likely act out and be distractive in this situation over time. I just want what is best for DC.

Q1: Since I already talked to the principle and prefer not to make a bad name for myself before even starting at the school should I let it go for now and hope they have or will develop a plan to continue her academic growth appropriately?

Q2: Am I expecting too much from a public school to provide her with more advanced academics at this grade?

[Anonymous]

From what I hear from parents with kids like yours: it's a long wait until you get the services that you're looking for (available in 3rd grade in public school). Probably not an option at this point, but private seems the way to go so that you can pay for a smaller class size and more individual attention. I've seen families go private up til 2nd and then move to public to get the AAP in 3rd grade (then may move private again for middle school, maybe high school). If you end up at public K then provide lots of opportunities for enrichment outside the classroom -- just like you're doing now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:From what I hear from parents with kids like yours: it's a long wait until you get the services that you're looking for (available in 3rd grade in public school). Probably not an option at this point, but private seems the way to go so that you can pay for a smaller class size and more individual attention. I've seen families go private up til 2nd and then move to public to get the AAP in 3rd grade (then may move private again for middle school, maybe high school). If you end up at public K then provide lots of opportunities for enrichment outside the classroom -- just like you're doing now.

This is my fear. We bought up a little in house to be in a "great' school so we really can't afford private school. Not that I don't want to or will stop working so much with DC outside of school, I was just hoping that school would actually take over some of that learning time so we could get some family and personal time back. With 2 working parents and another child, time is really compressed for us and I hear our sked will get even crazier with weekend/after school activities.

Your feedback is the reason I feel compelled to call the FFX Cty resourse sponsor back and disucss my concerns. thanks.

[Anonymous]

I don't know how it works before 3rd grade. But from 3rd through HS graduation, your child will have tons of learning opportunities/options in VA publics. Remember that most of the current TJ HS kids (TJ is often ranked as the nation's #1 public high school) started exactly where you are now. K isn't much of a learning year -- alot of it is about the non-academics, lunch line, recess, art, taking turns, sitting in a group. There definitely will be differentiation in reading in 1st grade. Somehow bright kids rise to the top and thrive. Relax and try to enjoy the experience.

[Anonymous]

We go to a private school, not FX Co. schools, but I think our school could've met your child's needs at 1st grade, but I'm not sure about in K. K is really about social development, getting used to routines, and starting to read. Definitely some kids could read by the middle of K, and more advanced readers were put together in small groups, or read to other children. In math they do basics but certainly not multiplication. In 1st grade, they concentrate on reading, and have different reading groups, so they could accommodate you there. Math was also differentiated in 1st grade and I think if you are that advanced they would just accommodate it. My child is good at math but I never thought she was that far above the curve as you descibe. There may be some aspects that your child is not advanced in, and would benefit from "the basics." I'm not sure the public schools are able to offer such differentiation at young grades due to the larger class sizes.

[Anonymous]

I doubt they do this anymore, but my parents had your concern and got me tested and placed into first grade instead of K. I still was ahead of my peers in most subjects, but it was a bit closer to where I belonged.

You might call and see if this is at ALL an option. Again, my experience was 30 years ago in a small county in MD and my dad worked for the school system and knew some of the hoops to jump through to make these things happen.

[Anonymous]

Ok-- I am going to preface this by saying my response will be harsh. Partly because it is an anonymous message board and I hear parents like you all of the time and I need to vent. I wish I could tell all of the parents I get saying how advanced their children are and worried they will be bored in school.

Chill out lady. School has not even started. If you start with the thought that she will be bored that is all you will see from now on.

You probably didn't get a warm and fuzzy feeling from the principal because you are the 10th new K parent coming to him today and saying you think your child will need a more stimulating classroom before school has even started. As you mentioned, you realize that K is more than just phonics and number sense. It is about building community, taking turns, learning to lose at tictactoe, and realizing you can't be line leader everyday. Academically there is always a VERY wide range of levels especially at the beginning of the year. As trite as it sounds, five year olds truly are sponges and around January almost all of them are at around the same level in most subjects. Another great think about a kindergarten classroom is that it is about discovery. Your DD may end up being the expert in reading, think of the self confidence she will gain when she gets to "help" a child next to her sound out a few words. And how exciting it will be for your DC when another child helps her figure out "sink or float" problems!!

When I get a child like yours in my class the hardest thing we do is work on waiting her turn. they are so excited to know it that they yell out before other children get a chance to figure it out. She will come home and say "Ms. X never calls on me! But I know the answer" -- and she is right, the teacher will not call on her because she would have already called out. A good teacher in any grade level will work with every student to nurture their strengths and build up their weaknesses. I don't know of any classroom where every child is working on the same reading level/math level in small groups. Trust the educators.

More than likely DD WILL come home and say she is bored -- esp if you have mentioned this possibility around her (To DH, family friends etc, she hears it and will repeat it without even knowing what it means. She will also come home and say they didn;t do anything in school today. She will also say she "played" at school today which will infuriate you and make you go back to the principal and vent to anyone who will listen "Little Susie is so far ahead of her peers all she does is play and is bored! I don't know what to do..." etc etc.

I have had parents ask that thier DC go to 4th grade for math, skip 1sy and 2nd and go straight to 3rd because they can read at a higher level. Even ask if DC can go to 6th grade (when language options begin) because she is so far ahead in Spanish (which is part of the K-5 curriculum) and they would like her to learn french as well.


If you truly think this school is not the best fit for her, look elsewhere but it will be the same -- even in private schools. If you really want her to continue to be "pushed" at this young age, I suggest hiring tutors or doing online classes. However, in my professional opinion (15 years in kindergarten in both FCPS and Private schools in addition to graduate degrees in Child development and curriculum development) I suggest waiting until at LEAST January or February before making any decisions. You want her to love school and WANt to learn. I have seen too many "gifted children" get burnt out before 2nd grade because of all the supplemental instruction they get outside of the classroom. There is a reason GT does not start until 3rd grade. And YES YES YES -- stick with your gut and do NOT go to the principal or teachers again. Because you don't want that persona as a "pushy parent" before kindergarten even starts. Instead -- wait for parent teacher conferences when I am sure the teacher will praise DC and mention her intelligence to you without you even having to bring it up.

I treat my students like the most important people in the world, because I know that they are to you. I love them like my own and get as excited for their accomplishments as you do. I understand with a first child and first public school experience that may be hard to see, but I promise your child will be loved, encouraged, celebrated and challenged at school -- if you will just let the teachers do their jobs.

[Anonymous]

9:48 - excellent post!

And she is correct, my child was in private K and really they may have provided a little bit more challenging work but not much. K just isn't the mini Harvard parents want it to be.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Ok-- I am going to preface this by saying my response will be harsh. Partly because it is an anonymous message board and I hear parents like you all of the time and I need to vent. I wish I could tell all of the parents I get saying how advanced their children are and worried they will be bored in school. ...

I hope you are one of the K teachers at my daughter's new school. I'm not the OP, but I must say, I think you are fantastic Spot on.

[Anonymous]

I hope you are one of the K teachers at my daughter's new school. I'm not the OP, but I must say, I think you are fantastic Spot on.

This and/except you do not sound like many of the teachers we've had in the past. So much of school experience anywhere depends on the teacher in the classroom! You seem like one of the good ones. And I appreciate the constructive post -- not too harsh. Not OP, but I'm looking for straightforward answers/observations/opinions. Thanks!

[Anonymous]

Thanks, 9:48!

It's important to be an advocate for your child, but please recognize that teachers have seen hundreds of kindergartners in their career. Have a little faith that your child's teacher will recognize extraordinary intelligence! My mom teaches high school in Fairfax County and is amazed at how many parents insist that their children should be in AP classes despite the child's poor performance in an AP class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Thanks, 9:48!

It's important to be an advocate for your child, but please recognize that teachers have seen hundreds of kindergartners in their career. Have a little faith that your child's teacher will recognize extraordinary intelligence! My mom teaches high school in Fairfax County and is amazed at how many parents insist that their children should be in AP classes despite the child's poor performance in an AP class.

Ok, true to a point. But brand new teachers cycle through all the time and have not seen "hundreds of kindergartners." I say this coming from the other end of the spectrum when my high IQ, low performing DS was labeled "a little careless." This year after year of me trying to point out to teachers that something didn't seem right (re high ability vs relatively low performance). Everyone (teachers and administrators) gave me the brush off and to my utter dismay I backed off. Sure enough, come high school and we learn of major gaps in knowledge, learning disabilities, etc. I feel as though a good teacher (perhaps with less than 30 kids in her class) might have been able to provide more insight and get to know my kid a little better or at least say, yeah, something seems off. I'm also incredibly frustrated with myself for trying not to be the PITA and backing off.

[Anonymous]

Yay, 9:48!

OP, breathe. I heard from a lot of people that my oldest was the smartest kid they'd seen in years, and maybe he should skip a grade. You know what? He is smart. He is, objectively (as in test scores, grades, and so on), much much brighter than average. And yet he was fine in kindergarten. Teachers are perfectly capable of challenging kids academically, and the social part -- the self regulation -- is much harder than you might think, even for kids who are pretty responsible.

[Anonymous]

Hurray for 9:48. S/he is the kind of teacher that makes Fairfax County one of the best systems in the country. Thank you for taking the time to address OP in a kind, non-confrontational and respectful manner. So many on this anonymous forum vent in ways that do nothing but create hostility. You said it in a way that might actually make some of the PITA parents stop and think before acting (let's hope so!!) Cheers!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Ok-- I am going to preface this by saying my response will be harsh. Partly because it is an anonymous message board and I hear parents like you all of the time and I need to vent. I wish I could tell all of the parents I get saying how advanced their children are and worried they will be bored in school.
Chill out lady. School has not even started. If you start with the thought that she will be bored that is all you will see from now on.

Thank you for the response. I appreciate your point of view and now I will explain my a little further and ask you a few questions.
Do you not believe there are any children that are at the levels I descried academically and socially that are entering K? Do you feel it’s appropriate to not supply any child at any age with knowledge and learning opportunities if they are leading the way (not being pushed)? Do you feel it’s appropriate to not take advantage of a child’s enthusiasm for learning opportunities and provide them the next level of building blocks for learning if they seek it? Do you believe that no child would ever be bored in your class and could be turned off from learning because of it?
In my specific situation, I am not the only one who thinks our DC learns differently and is quite ahead of her peers in many areas developmentally. She has been in a home daycare (with a retired teacher) for over 4 years (they taught her to read and add/subtract along with social skills) and now a preschool where she has learned to take her turn, play fairly, share and all that great social stuff with many kids her own age. I don't believe you EVER stop learning social graces and how to handle different aspects of working with others so I don’t understand why K has to ONLY be about learning to walk to the cafeteria for lunch in a straight line. I don’t feel that we are putting this on our child because we didn’t really even notice the differences until pointed out by her ped (developmental specialist), our many friends with kids in FCPSs with an admittedly wide range of developmental and academic abilities, and other acquaintances that are teachers . We also recognize a huge difference between our kids and the ped (and others) sharing that he is developmentally in the middle of the pack.

Anonymous wrote: You probably didn't get a warm and fuzzy feeling from the principal because you are the 10th new K parent coming to him today and saying you think your child will need a more stimulating classroom before school has even started. As you mentioned, you realize that K is more than just phonics and number sense. It is about building community, taking turns, learning to lose at tictactoe, and realizing you can't be line leader everyday. Academically there is always a VERY wide range of levels especially at the beginning of the year. As trite as it sounds, five year olds truly are sponges and around January almost all of them are at around the same level in most subjects. Another great think about a kindergarten classroom is that it is about discovery. Your DD may end up being the expert in reading, think of the self confidence she will gain when she gets to "help" a child next to her sound out a few words. And how exciting it will be for your DC when another child helps her figure out "sink or float" problems!!

When the principle described how he was shocked to have a few DC who “learned” to read while in K and were sent to his office to read to him a few times a week it does make me think she might have different needs than they typically see. She “learned” to read as she turned 4 and is beyond learning her alphabet and the sounds each letter makes. You say she may [bold] end up [bold] being the expert in reading and gain confidence by “helping” other children. My response is that she IS already reading full on chapter books completely on her own (I read them as well to see if she understands them and she accurately describes the stories and answers my questions about them) and she has a lot of self confidence already! She reads too her peers and the younger kids in her preschool all of the time (I’m told she is pulled out to read to the 2 and 3 yr olds several times a week). I don’t mind her “helping” other students but would like her to also be enriched based on her current level.As for community building, learning to lose, etc, she is already well adjusted in those areas and these are lessons you can/will continue to learn as you get older. It’s not like your ONLY learn about these things in K and then never again. Just yesterday she apologized for a little victory cheer she did after beating me in hangman (online) stating that it wasn’t great sportsmanship to gloat followed up by telling me that I did a good job though.

Anonymous wrote:When I get a child like yours in my class the hardest thing we do is work on waiting her turn. they are so excited to know it that they yell out before other children get a chance to figure it out. She will come home and say "Ms. X never calls on me! But I know the answer" -- and she is right, the teacher will not call on her because she would have already called out. A good teacher in any grade level will work with every student to nurture their strengths and build up their weaknesses. I don't know of any classroom where every child is working on the same reading level/math level in small groups. Trust the educators.

You state that she may blurt out the answer because the teacher may never call on her knowing she already knows all of the answers when they are reviewing the alphabet. I agree and believe this may cause her to act out or become bored for these reasons. Would you like to be sequestered all day at your job listening to an instructor tell you how your telephone works or how to turn on your computer and open a Word doc? Wouldn't you tune out or call out the answers out of annoyance? I'm not sure I understand why the child in this case is the problem and not a school system that can appropriately address learning needs of children. If you start reviewing the alphabet with her she will most definitely tune out about 1 min in. I don’t blame her for that. How could you?

Anonymous wrote: More than likely DD WILL come home and say she is bored -- esp if you have mentioned this possibility around her (To DH, family friends etc, she hears it and will repeat it without even knowing what it means. She will also come home and say they didn;t do anything in school today. She will also say she "played" at school today which will infuriate you and make you go back to the principal and vent to anyone who will listen "Little Susie is so far ahead of her peers all she does is play and is bored! I don't know what to do..." etc etc.

I can assure you she will do as you say and come home telling me she is bored. I can also assure you that she knows what it means because we heard her say it over and over again in preschool before we even realized there may be a mismatch in curriculum for her.

Anonymous wrote:I have had parents ask that thier DC go to 4th grade for math, skip 1sy and 2nd and go straight to 3rd because they can read at a higher level. Even ask if DC can go to 6th grade (when language options begin) because she is so far ahead in Spanish (which is part of the K-5 curriculum) and they would like her to learn french as well.

All I can say is that I’m not these parents. I don’t want her to skip a ton of grades, but would prefer that she either be put in a class for specific subjects that she is in need of more advanced learning opportunities or be given work at her appropriate level within her own K class. I just don’t see how it’s appropriate to make her “learn” her alphabet sounds all year when she’s known them for over 2 years now. Why is holding her back in her best interest? You said earlier that they are little sponges, so why not give them what they desire when they have the most capacity they will ever have in their lifetime for learning?

Anonymous wrote:If you truly think this school is not the best fit for her, look elsewhere but it will be the same -- even in private schools. If you really want her to continue to be "pushed" at this young age, I suggest hiring tutors or doing online classes. However, in my professional opinion (15 years in kindergarten in both FCPS and Private schools in addition to graduate degrees in Child development and curriculum development) I suggest waiting until at LEAST January or February before making any decisions. You want her to love school and WANt to learn. I have seen too many "gifted children" get burnt out before 2nd grade because of all the supplemental instruction they get outside of the classroom. There is a reason GT does not start until 3rd grade. And YES YES YES -- stick with your gut and do NOT go to the principal or teachers again. Because you don't want that persona as a "pushy parent" before kindergarten even starts. Instead -- wait for parent teacher conferences when I am sure the teacher will praise DC and mention her intelligence to you without you even having to bring it up.

I don’t know if this school will be a good fit for our DC and that is what I am trying to figure out before wasting a year. Other options are limited for us, including private school. I’m also not sure if private school is the answer based on some personal experience. I’m also sorry that you feel I want her “pushed” as we have never “pushed” her as far as we know. We provide her with the books to read and read to both kids every night. Between her home daycare and us just reading to her she just seem to learn to read. You do sound highly educated in this area, but I have had these same level of degrees and experience thrown at me from her preschool director , after being with the school for several months, basically called me a liar when she boldly told me that I even though I THINK my DC can read she really CAN’T . This was after a suggestion to let DC read in her cot since she wasn’t napping and bothering the other kids who were napping. She insisted that she has just memorized books we have and I think that is reading. I tried to explain that our DC had never gone through the stage of memorizing books and told her to have her go read a book to her that DC has never seen. This was done the next day and when she realized our DC could actually read at 4 I was not spoken to for several days after that. Subsequently I was told that the curriculum could not be changed to accommodate DC and I should seek outside support. So, my experience with educators wanting to help has not been positive. I’ve only been lectured on their great levels of experience and how they are always right.

Anonymous wrote:I treat my students like the most important people in the world, because I know that they are to you. I love them like my own and get as excited for their accomplishments as you do. I understand with a first child and first public school experience that may be hard to see, but I promise your child will be loved, encouraged, celebrated and challenged at school -- if you will just let the teachers do their jobs.

You sound like a wonderful teacher, but honestly I hope that DC gets a K teacher with a little more of an open mind and will see her for what she is and not what she is perceived to be by a teacher with many years of experience and preconceived notions. I truly thank you for your advice. I will most likely wait until the first teacher-parent conference and see if the teacher takes the lead.